Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bfiggins 09-04-07, 07:34 PM	I'm playing a Swordsage right now, and I'm a little disappointed that there aren't that many good options for Swordsages other than Swordsage 15/Master of Nine 5. I've been considering asking my GM to allow a 10-level Master of Nine progression. The maneuvers are the main thing, so I tried to fill the rest of the class with abilities which are nice, but not exactly game-changing. Take a look at what I've got so far, and let me know what you think. Remember that I increased the entry requirements, so this class has to be taken from levels 11-20. Walker of the Sublime Way Requirements: At least 2 maneuvers or stances in each of 6 different disciplines, 13 ranks in six key discipline skills. Your Initiator Level must be equal to your Character Level. Feats: Adaptive Style, Dodge, Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike. Hit Die: D8. Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level): Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Martial Lore, Sense Motive, Swim, Tumble. Levels 1-5: Same as the Master of Nine Prestige Class. Levels 6-10 do increase the maximum duration of Dual Stance. Level 6 BAB +4, Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +5 +1 maneuver known, +1 readied, +1 stance known Special: Nine Lives The Walker of the Sublime Way gains a number of hit points equal to the number of different disciplines he readied a maneuver from at the beginning of the day. If he changes his maneuvers and reduces the number of disciplines readied the next day, he loses unwounded hit points first. Level 7 BAB +5, Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +5 +2 maneuvers known, +1 readied Level 8 BAB +6, Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +6 +1 maneuver known, +1 readied, +1 stance known Special: Nine Keys The Walker of the Sublime Way gains a +2 bonus on any checks involving the key skill of a discipline he has readied a maneuver from (whether the maneuver is expended or unexpended). Level 9 BAB +6, Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +6 +2 maneuvers known, +1 readied Special: Sublime Skill The Walker of the Sublime Way adds 1 to the save DC of any maneuvers he initiates, on top of any other bonuses. Level 10 BAB +7, Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +7 +1 maneuver known, +1 readied, +1 stance known Special: Nine Are One The Walker of the Sublime Way treats all disciplines as the same style. Any feat, skill, or special ability that refers to a specific discipline can be used with any discipline. Any discipline may be used to qualify for feats or prestige classes, and maneuvers which require a certain number of prerequisite maneuvers can now draw their prerequisites from any discipline. (This is less useful than it sounds, as by this point, the Walker of the Sublime Way has numerous maneuvers in every discipline.) The Walker of the Sublime Way can gain a full +9 bonus from Nine Lives and Mastery of Nine just by preparing any nine maneuvers. However, if he prepares maneuvers from nine different disciplines, the bonus from both these special abilities increases to +10, and he gains an additional +1 bonus on attack rolls when executing any strike maneuver. If the character has Swordsage levels, his Discipline Focus features all change to Sublime Way. He gains the benefit of his Discipline Focus with any discipline from which he has prepared at least one maneuver. If he has enough levels to have the Insightful Strike or Defensive Stance special ability twice, this provides no additional benefit.
rampant 09-04-07, 09:38 PM	Ok 9 lives is kind of puny, 9 hp at level 16, big whup. Also once you have the 10 level ability, what if you use dual stance? since all of your stances are treated as being of the school that grants the defensive boost, does that grant double the bonus?
bfiggins 09-05-07, 01:20 AM	Ok 9 lives is kind of puny, 9 hp at level 16, big whup. Also once you have the 10 level ability, what if you use dual stance? since all of your stances are treated as being of the school that grants the defensive boost, does that grant double the bonus? It's supposed to be a puny ability; more thematic than anything else. Just slightly better than leaving a dead level there. Do you think it should be boosted? The question of dual stance and defense stance could already come up with a Swordsage 16/Master of Nine 2 with two Defensive Stance abilities using Dual Stance. As such, since the bonus is untyped, I think that call is up to the GM. I probably wouldn't allow it to stack, since it's the same bonus coming from the same ability (much like the ruling on the Swordsage's AC bonus and the Monk's AC bonus).
bfiggins 09-05-07, 02:54 PM	A quick bump; I want to run this by a few more eyes before I submit it to my DM.
fatmonkey 09-06-07, 02:18 AM	Why alter the Master of Nine's entry req? Nine Lives seems too generic a benefit (extra HP). The benefit should be something unique or at least very rare but still rather useless. Also following the pattern of the class would not putting a dead level at 6th be more appropriate than putting it at 7th? Nine Keys seems fairly week as well. though the bonuses would be used. Sublime Skill progression of Perfect Form. Why change the name? Nine Are One This seems like a very nice and flavorful ability. It also will definitely be used. I suggest changing the wording to "The Walker of the Sublime Way can treat any discipline as any other disciplines. This means that any feat, skill, or special ability that refers to a specific discipline can be used with any discipline, that any discipline may be used to qualify for feats, and prestige classes, and that maneuvers which require a certain number of prerequisite maneuvers can now draw their prerequisites from any discipline." and remove the additional effect (though the sword sage changes would stay). I thinks this makes it more concise. This ability alone make me want to work on my own extended Master of Nine progression. Abilities (that seem like natural progressions of ones the master of nine already has) you may wish to look into are Boost Stance like counter stance but for boosts Strike Stance like counter stance but for strikes Triple Stance/Three Stances powerful so it would need some sort of limitation Dual Strike powerful so it would need some sort of limitation Dual Boost powerful so it would need some sort of limitation
bfiggins 09-06-07, 03:41 AM	Well, I guess I've been worried about making the class too powerful. I've always been hesitant about homebrew material, so I try to keep an eye on weakness as well as strength, but maybe I took it too far. Essentially, this level replaces levels 11-15 of a Swordsage, which are almost entirely dead levels. The only useful ability is being able to take Insightful Strikes again. So I'm hesitant to throw in anything too useful. I like what you said about 'Unique, but still rather useless.' I'd certainly be interested in seeing what you've done with your progression. Maybe do something with the fact that a Swordsage/Mo9 will have a freakin' mound of readied maneuvers? 'As a free action, you may expend a maneuver to gain a +1 bonus on any attack roll or saving throw, or to gain +1 AC against a single attack. You may see the die result before choosing to use this ability. Expending the maneuver offers no benefit. You may expend as many maneuvers for bonuses as you wish.' Or maybe improve maneuver recovery? 'You may now recover your maneuvers as part of a standard melee attack or harmless flourish as a standard action.' Or maybe some kind of momentum mechanic. 'Each round you expend a maneuver, you gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls, to a maximum of your Initiator Level. For each round that passes where you do not expend a maneuver, this bonus is reduced by 1, to a minmum of 0. This bonus is reduced to 0 if you recover any expended maneuvers.'
fatmonkey 09-07-07, 12:14 AM	It could also be replacing levels in Warblade. With 1 feat a warblade can meet the prereq of the Master of Nine prestige class so don't just look at for balance compared to the Sword Sage, and remember what the class has given up by going into the prestige class. The improved recovery method is iffy. A Warblade would get nothing from it and the class already duplicate the Warblade's cap stone ability. The bonus as a free action is useless for saves as free actions can only be done on your own turn. Also being able to see results first and then expending a specific number (with out limit, possibly up to 18) seems powerful to me. The momentum mechanic seems good. Because it is slow to start you will end up with few bonuses for most of combat and generally the first round (or two) are the most important. A rather useless ability I thought of was granting a bonus on Martial Lore checks based on the number of disciplines you know (+1 per discipline).
bfiggins 09-07-07, 02:20 AM	The improved recovery method is iffy. A Warblade would get nothing from it and the class already duplicate the Warblade's cap stone ability. It would reduce the Warblade's recovery from Swift + Standard to just Standard, enabling them to use a boost or change stances during that round. The bonus as a free action is useless for saves as free actions can only be done on your own turn. Also being able to see results first and then expending a specific number (with out limit, possibly up to 18) seems powerful to me. Not an action, then. Whatever language they use for the Luck feats. It probably is powerful, although using it heavily drains the martial adept of their maneuvers, forcing recovery which is, essentially, a waste of a turn. There's probably a better way to do it - the thought behind it is to allow a Swordsage to turn their massive handful of maneuvers into something immediately useful.