*EXPELLIARMUS!* [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pitiless_Interfector
11-25-07, 06:23 PM SPELLSPAR MASTER
"Right. Like I didn't see that fireball coming a mile away."
—Serris Tanner, five-time winner of the Trial of the Iron Crucible.

While some arcanists spend their days holed up in their library or laboratory, or delve into the forgotten tombs of their forebears in search of treasure, a few love nothing more than to test their skills in the only way that truly matters: by dueling another spellcaster. While most mages only duel when forced or as a diversion from their ordinary focus, a few choose to practice the ancient and demanding art of spellsparring. These mages practice hour after endless hour to master their craft, learning tricks and stratagems to outwit their opponents, using simple spells to turn aside even the deadliest magics, or even reflecting an enemy's own power back to its source.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills: Concentration 8 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats: Combat Casting, Improved Counterspell
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, including dispel magic and either arcane sight, battlemagic perception (Heroes of Battle 125), or spellcaster's bane (Complete Mage 117)
Special Requirements: Must have defeated an arcane spellcaster of a level equal to their own in a formal mage duel.

Table 1—1: The Spellspar Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . HD: d4
Base
Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special Spellcasting
________________________________________ ________________________________________ ________________________________________ _______
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Spellsparring, studious practice +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Convert counterspell, Dampen Spell +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Mitigate spell +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Reflect spell +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Counterstrike +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
Class Skills (2 + Int mod per level): Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Intimidate, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft

CLASS FEATURES
Note: All references to 'spells' made in the following text refer to arcane and divine spells only, and not to invocations, mysteries, vestiges, utterances, maneuvers, soulmelds, psionic powers, psi-like abilities, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, or metaphysical abilities (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14423307#post14423307).

Upon entering the prestige class, a spellspar master learns the art of sizing up his competition and using his observations of their technique to minimize their strengths and maximize their weaknesses. Gaining this advantage requires a successful Spellcraft check (DC 15 + opponent's caster level + opponent's levels in Spellspar Master [if any]) and may only be attempted after the opponent has cast a spell in the encounter. If the check succeeds, the spellspar adept adds his class level plus his key ability modifier (or twice his class level, whichever is lower) as an insight bonus on dispel checks against that opponent's spells, while applying the same modifier as a penalty on dispel checks the opponent makes to attempt to dispel the spellspar master's spells. A spellspar master may have only one spellsparring partner per encounter.

A spellspar master adds his class level as a competence bonus on Spellcraft checks. Spellcraft checks made to identify his spells take a penalty equal to his class level.

A spellspar master of 2nd level or higher can lose any prepared spell or spell slot of 3rd level or higher to cast dispel magic as a counterspell, or lose any prepared spell or spell slot of 6th level or higher to cast greater dispel magic as a counterspell. This ability does not allow him to convert spells for general use into dispel magic or greater dispel magic and only applies to counterspelling. The normal rules for casting a counterspell still apply.

At 2nd level, a spellspar master gains Dampen Spell (PHBII 78) as a bonus feat. If he already possesses that feat, he may choose any other feat for which he meets the prerequisites.

When a spellspar master of 3rd level or higher successfully identifies a spell cast by the subject of his spellsparring ability and sacrifices a prepared spell or spell slot of equal or higher level (via his Dampen Spell feat), he gains the benefits of evasion and/or mettle (as applicable) in regards to that casting of the spell.

When a spellspar master of 4th level or higher counters a spell cast by the subject of his spellsparring ability, it is turned back upon its caster as if affected by a spell turning spell. If it is an effect spell requiring a ranged touch attack, the spellspar master may make a ranged touch attack (using his own ranged attack modifiers) to affect the original caster with the spell. If it affects an area, that area is centered on the original caster's space in the intersection nearest the spellspar master. If it produces a summoned creature, the spellspar master wrests control of it as if by a steal summoning (Complete Mage 118) spell. In all cases, the aspects of the spell, including caster level and save DC, are the same as if the original caster had cast it.

Whenever the subject of a 5th-level spellspar master's spellsparring ability casts a spell while within 30 feet of the spellspar master, the spellspar master may use an immediate action to target him with a spell. Casting the spell in this way provokes attacks of opportunity unless the spellspar master makes a successful Concentration check to cast defensively. The spell must be one that affects a single target (such as hold person or finger of death) or requires a ranged touch attack to hit (such as disintegrate or orb of force). The two spells resolve simultaneously, meaning that neither can disrupt the other.
dman11235
11-25-07, 09:25 PM This looks fine right now. I'm struggling to find anything wrong with it.

Now, a couple things that do need to be adressed: why only arcane spells? Divine is similar enough, and if you even have one rank in psicraft you can identify psionics. It should not be restricted to arcane only.

Also, metaphysical abilities are supernatural, nothing more. But that's for that thread.

Lastly: looks pretty good.
bkdubs123
11-25-07, 10:09 PM Part of me wants you to give this class a higher hit dice (d6?) and a higher bab (medium) since it is based on combat more so than a normal mage-type (a Spellspar Master certainly expects/hopes to challenge other spellcasters, whereas other spellcasters certainly don't hope to challenge anyone - they hope to be protected). The higher hit dice keeps him alive a bit longer in protracted duels than non-dedicated sparring partners and the higher bab helps reflect his better training with accurate attacks (touch and ranged touch spells are quite useful in duels). In exchange for the higher hit dice and bab it should probably lose a level of spellcasting somewhere, but I can't be sure where...
dman11235
11-25-07, 10:31 PM Not combat in a traditional sence: magic combat. I see no reason to do that. Also, I see plenty of arogant wizards and sorcerers. Just because they have low BAB and HD doesn't mean they need to be protected all the time. I know plenty of wizards who don't need protection.
CrimsonDeath
11-26-07, 04:51 AM The biggest problem I see is that Spellsparring adds your primary ability score modifier to Dispel checks. By character level 10, a Spellspar Master might be tossing around Dispel Magic with over +20 on dispel checks (meaning they're guaranteed to dispel anything by an equal-level caster). By level 20, even without boosting their caster level, they could be casting Greater Dispel Magic with a dispel check in the neighborhood of +35, guaranteeing that they will dispel the spells of pretty much any caster they'd reasonably be expected to defeat (up to 4 levels above the PC's caster level). Just adding your class level to dispel checks ought to be plenty, IMO.

Note that Spell Turning normally only affects spells with a Target, not ones that affect an Area or produce an Effect. I don't have a problem with Reflect Spell being able to affect other spells in the way you described, but you may want to note it for the sake of completeness. Also, understand that Reflect Spell is strictly better than the Archmage's Mastery of Counterspelling, and the Spellspar Master can get it four levels earlier.

For Mitigate Spell, you may simply want to say that the Spellspar Master gains Evasion and Mettle against that spell. If the spell turns out to be a Scorching Ray or something, he'd still have Evasion and Mettle against it; it simply wouldn't do him any good. Likewise, he'd have Mettle against a Fireball and Mettle against Slay Living; it just wouldn't help very much. This would eliminate the awkward "and/or" construction without really changing the way the ability works.

It'd be interesting to experiment with this a bit. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking an Abjurer 5/Spellspar Master 5 could be topped off nicely with either Master Specialist or Incantatrix.
Empirate
11-26-07, 07:49 AM While I very much like this PrC, it doesn't solve the underlying problem of the Counterspelling mechanic: Basically, you waste your action (i.e., your potential to positively impact the outcome of an encounter) to forestall another's action - which he may then choose not to take. Counterspelling cripples your character's potential to do anything. It is strictly reactive, and you don't win battles that way.
What I'd like to see in your Spellspar Master is an ability that allows reactive counterspelling without actually spending your actions for it. There is the Reactive Counterspell feat in Magic of Faerūn (iirc), which lets you immediately counterspell whenever a spell is cast, but this counts as your next action, whenever that would have been. Good as a starting point, make it a bonus Feat at 2nd level instead of Dampen Spell. Then maybe a 1/day ability to counterspell as an immediate action at 3rd level, and as a capstone a 1/encounter ability to counterspell as an immediate action at 5th level? Either that, or let Counterstrike disrupt spellcasting (i.e., possibly force a Concentration check) if you use a lower-level spell than the opponent, like a magical AoO.

Remember that counterspelling eats up your spell slots without doing anything for you. Allowing it more easily for a dedicated PrC doesn't seem overpowered to me. After all, you're still only stopping enemy spells, not all the other "non-mundane" stuff you mentioned. This is pretty specific, and there's still lots of spells you can't affect (pre-cast buffs, for example, or quickened spells).

BTW, I think that spell-like abilities should absolutely be subject to Spellsparring! They work like spells in all other regards, too, so why not here?
RobbyPants
11-26-07, 11:47 AM Nicely done. :clap: Good crunch and flavor. This could be pretty fun to play in the right campaign.

The biggest problem I see is that Spellsparring adds your primary ability score modifier to Dispel checks. By character level 10, a Spellspar Master might be tossing around Dispel Magic with over +20 on dispel checks (meaning they're guaranteed to dispel anything by an equal-level caster). By level 20, even without boosting their caster level, they could be casting Greater Dispel Magic with a dispel check in the neighborhood of +35, guaranteeing that they will dispel the spells of pretty much any caster they'd reasonably be expected to defeat (up to 4 levels above the PC's caster level). Just adding your class level to dispel checks ought to be plenty, IMO.
Yeah, perhaps capping the casting stat at the class level would work too.
Pitiless_Interfector
11-26-07, 10:26 PM While I very much like this PrC, it doesn't solve the underlying problem of the Counterspelling mechanic: Basically, you waste your action (i.e., your potential to positively impact the outcome of an encounter) to forestall another's action - which he may then choose not to take. Counterspelling cripples your character's potential to do anything. It is strictly reactive, and you don't win battles that way.

It's a mage duel! What else would your opponent be doing, the hokey-pokey? And as to the last sentence, my friend's Monk 6/Swordsage 12 might have something to say about that.

Remember that counterspelling eats up your spell slots without doing anything for you.

I'd think turning the effect right around and pounding it into your opponent's face does a lot for you (If nothing else, it's an amazing ego trip). The Reflect Spells class feature functions on targeted, area, and ray spells, and even lets you take control of your opponent's summoned creatures. Let's see an archmage beat that!

And by the way, did you actually look at the capstone ability? It lets you hit the bastard with a ray or targeted spell as an immediate action if he's within 30 feet and fails to cast defensively. Of course, he still gets his spell off, so you both go down together. Et tu, Brute?

BTW, I think that spell-like abilities should absolutely be subject to Spellsparring! They work like spells in all other regards, too, so why not here?

Umm, because they can't be counterspelled? Says so right here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) (Third paragraph).

But I did remove the proviso that proscribed divine spells from being spellsparred.

Oh, and in regards to the title of the thread:

DISARMING RAY
. Evocation
. Level: Duskblade 1, Sorcerer/wizard 1
. Components: V, S
. Casting Time: 1 standard action
. Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
. Effect: Ray
. Duration: Instantaneous
. Saving Throw: Reflex negates
. Spell Resistance: Yes

. With a bark and a flourish, you cast your spell.
. A beam of energy erupts from your pointed fingertip,
. blasting your foe's weapon right out of his hands and
. sending it spinning away.

. When you cast this spell, you make a ranged
. touch attack against any target in range. If
. the attack hits, the target must make a Reflex
. save or have any held items blasted out of their
. hand (caster's choice of hand if the target is
. holding items in two or more separate hands),
. sailing through the air and landing 1d4+1 x 5 feet
. away in a random direction (see Missing With a
. Thrown Weapon, PHB 158).
dman11235
11-26-07, 10:45 PM Good spell too.
Pitiless_Interfector
11-27-07, 07:42 PM Good spell too.

I'm still not sure about the school, though. Telekinesis, levitate, disintegrate, and friends are all transmutation, but I personally feel evocation makes more sense (not merely for this spell, but the others mentioned in this post, as well). What are your thoughts?
dman11235
11-27-07, 10:13 PM It should probably be transmutation (as wierd as that would be). Also, Telekenesis is a level 5 spell, but since it has no save for the combat maneuvers and no touch attack required and doesn't have as may options, I think level 1 would be fine. A little on the powerful side for a level one spell, but it probably belongs there.

Well, it doesn't evoc, it doesn't conjure, it doesn't abjure, it doesn't illuse, it doesn't enchant, it doesn't necro, and it doesn't divine. It also doesn't transmute, but that's the closest one. And since others like it are there, it belongs there.
Pitiless_Interfector
11-28-07, 05:14 PM It should probably be transmutation (as wierd as that would be). Also, Telekenesis is a level 5 spell, but since it has no save for the combat maneuvers and no touch attack required and doesn't have as may options, I think level 1 would be fine. A little on the powerful side for a level one spell, but it probably belongs there.

Well, it doesn't evoc, it doesn't conjure, it doesn't abjure, it doesn't illuse, it doesn't enchant, it doesn't necro, and it doesn't divine. It also doesn't transmute, but that's the closest one. And since others like it are there, it belongs there.

Actually, it's more complicated than that:

Abjuration: It could be an abjuration, since abjurations have a pre-empt, repel, halt, or generally interfere shtick. Repulsion and rejection (Cleric spell; blasts everything in a 60-ft.-cone away from you like Yoda on crack) are both abjuration

Conjuration: The beam could be a Conjuration (creation) effect (probably with the [Force] descriptor). The second incarnation that I'm working on will not be subject to SR, fitting in line with spells such as orb of force.

Divination: Okay, you got me here.

Enchantment: Again, no dice.

Evocation: It could easily be evocation, since it creates something (a beam of energy) from nothing, and is tied more to energy than to a tangible object (though the whole Evocation/Conjuration (Creation) issue is essentially moot). Fireball isn't transmutation, even though when cast in a sandy desert it can have the same effect as transmutation spells like transmute sand to glass or vitrify (which also has the [Fire] descriptor).

Illusion: It could be an Illusion (Shadow) effect that makes you think it was blasted out of your hand. (Okay, it'd take a complete rewrite, but it could be done).

Necromancy: I'm not too confident on this one. Perhaps the energy bolt is composed of energy distilled from your own life force/soul/essentia pool? Not a good bet.

Transmutation: And finally, the bastard child of the 8-school system. This one is so vaguely defined it's almost meaningless. Actually, all schools are meaningless, but a school whose constituent spells "change something about the target" really is worthless. If a spell doesn't change something about the target, you're wearing too much armor.
dman11235
11-28-07, 05:46 PM Actually, fireball can't do that.

Well, it's a little more complicated than that. It's changing the subject, as in, the physical subject directly. Does a fireball directly change the subject? No, it causes energy to appear and the energy harms the subject. This can possibly be evocation, as it's a ray of something that you control and is almost like a force effect, but transmutation is probably best, as it's also the school of Telekenesis. Conjuration doesn't works, because you aren't conjuring anything. If it was a blast of physical force (like orb of force), then it could be, but it would be a different thing (disarm attempt opposed by strength or something). Abjuration....no.The method that repulsion and such work on is not anything like this. Those are more like anti-life shell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pitiless_Interfector 11-25-07, 06:23 PM	SPELLSPAR MASTER "Right. Like I didn't see that fireball coming a mile away." —Serris Tanner, five-time winner of the Trial of the Iron Crucible. While some arcanists spend their days holed up in their library or laboratory, or delve into the forgotten tombs of their forebears in search of treasure, a few love nothing more than to test their skills in the only way that truly matters: by dueling another spellcaster. While most mages only duel when forced or as a diversion from their ordinary focus, a few choose to practice the ancient and demanding art of spellsparring. These mages practice hour after endless hour to master their craft, learning tricks and stratagems to outwit their opponents, using simple spells to turn aside even the deadliest magics, or even reflecting an enemy's own power back to its source. ENTRY REQUIREMENTS Skills: Concentration 8 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks Feats: Combat Casting, Improved Counterspell Spellcasting: Ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, including dispel magic and either arcane sight, battlemagic perception (Heroes of Battle 125), or spellcaster's bane (Complete Mage 117) Special Requirements: Must have defeated an arcane spellcaster of a level equal to their own in a formal mage duel. Table 1—1: The Spellspar Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . HD: d4 Base Attack Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save Special Spellcasting ________________________________________ ________________________________________ ________________________________________ _______ 1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Spellsparring, studious practice +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Convert counterspell, Dampen Spell +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Mitigate spell +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Reflect spell +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Counterstrike +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class Class Skills (2 + Int mod per level): Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Intimidate, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft CLASS FEATURES Note: All references to 'spells' made in the following text refer to arcane and divine spells only, and not to invocations, mysteries, vestiges, utterances, maneuvers, soulmelds, psionic powers, psi-like abilities, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, or metaphysical abilities (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14423307#post14423307). Upon entering the prestige class, a spellspar master learns the art of sizing up his competition and using his observations of their technique to minimize their strengths and maximize their weaknesses. Gaining this advantage requires a successful Spellcraft check (DC 15 + opponent's caster level + opponent's levels in Spellspar Master [if any]) and may only be attempted after the opponent has cast a spell in the encounter. If the check succeeds, the spellspar adept adds his class level plus his key ability modifier (or twice his class level, whichever is lower) as an insight bonus on dispel checks against that opponent's spells, while applying the same modifier as a penalty on dispel checks the opponent makes to attempt to dispel the spellspar master's spells. A spellspar master may have only one spellsparring partner per encounter. A spellspar master adds his class level as a competence bonus on Spellcraft checks. Spellcraft checks made to identify his spells take a penalty equal to his class level. A spellspar master of 2nd level or higher can lose any prepared spell or spell slot of 3rd level or higher to cast dispel magic as a counterspell, or lose any prepared spell or spell slot of 6th level or higher to cast greater dispel magic as a counterspell. This ability does not allow him to convert spells for general use into dispel magic or greater dispel magic and only applies to counterspelling. The normal rules for casting a counterspell still apply. At 2nd level, a spellspar master gains Dampen Spell (PHBII 78) as a bonus feat. If he already possesses that feat, he may choose any other feat for which he meets the prerequisites. When a spellspar master of 3rd level or higher successfully identifies a spell cast by the subject of his spellsparring ability and sacrifices a prepared spell or spell slot of equal or higher level (via his Dampen Spell feat), he gains the benefits of evasion and/or mettle (as applicable) in regards to that casting of the spell. When a spellspar master of 4th level or higher counters a spell cast by the subject of his spellsparring ability, it is turned back upon its caster as if affected by a spell turning spell. If it is an effect spell requiring a ranged touch attack, the spellspar master may make a ranged touch attack (using his own ranged attack modifiers) to affect the original caster with the spell. If it affects an area, that area is centered on the original caster's space in the intersection nearest the spellspar master. If it produces a summoned creature, the spellspar master wrests control of it as if by a steal summoning (Complete Mage 118) spell. In all cases, the aspects of the spell, including caster level and save DC, are the same as if the original caster had cast it. Whenever the subject of a 5th-level spellspar master's spellsparring ability casts a spell while within 30 feet of the spellspar master, the spellspar master may use an immediate action to target him with a spell. Casting the spell in this way provokes attacks of opportunity unless the spellspar master makes a successful Concentration check to cast defensively. The spell must be one that affects a single target (such as hold person or finger of death) or requires a ranged touch attack to hit (such as disintegrate or orb of force). The two spells resolve simultaneously, meaning that neither can disrupt the other.
dman11235 11-25-07, 09:25 PM	This looks fine right now. I'm struggling to find anything wrong with it. Now, a couple things that do need to be adressed: why only arcane spells? Divine is similar enough, and if you even have one rank in psicraft you can identify psionics. It should not be restricted to arcane only. Also, metaphysical abilities are supernatural, nothing more. But that's for that thread. Lastly: looks pretty good.
bkdubs123 11-25-07, 10:09 PM	Part of me wants you to give this class a higher hit dice (d6?) and a higher bab (medium) since it is based on combat more so than a normal mage-type (a Spellspar Master certainly expects/hopes to challenge other spellcasters, whereas other spellcasters certainly don't hope to challenge anyone - they hope to be protected). The higher hit dice keeps him alive a bit longer in protracted duels than non-dedicated sparring partners and the higher bab helps reflect his better training with accurate attacks (touch and ranged touch spells are quite useful in duels). In exchange for the higher hit dice and bab it should probably lose a level of spellcasting somewhere, but I can't be sure where...
dman11235 11-25-07, 10:31 PM	Not combat in a traditional sence: magic combat. I see no reason to do that. Also, I see plenty of arogant wizards and sorcerers. Just because they have low BAB and HD doesn't mean they need to be protected all the time. I know plenty of wizards who don't need protection.
CrimsonDeath 11-26-07, 04:51 AM	The biggest problem I see is that Spellsparring adds your primary ability score modifier to Dispel checks. By character level 10, a Spellspar Master might be tossing around Dispel Magic with over +20 on dispel checks (meaning they're guaranteed to dispel anything by an equal-level caster). By level 20, even without boosting their caster level, they could be casting Greater Dispel Magic with a dispel check in the neighborhood of +35, guaranteeing that they will dispel the spells of pretty much any caster they'd reasonably be expected to defeat (up to 4 levels above the PC's caster level). Just adding your class level to dispel checks ought to be plenty, IMO. Note that Spell Turning normally only affects spells with a Target, not ones that affect an Area or produce an Effect. I don't have a problem with Reflect Spell being able to affect other spells in the way you described, but you may want to note it for the sake of completeness. Also, understand that Reflect Spell is strictly better than the Archmage's Mastery of Counterspelling, and the Spellspar Master can get it four levels earlier. For Mitigate Spell, you may simply want to say that the Spellspar Master gains Evasion and Mettle against that spell. If the spell turns out to be a Scorching Ray or something, he'd still have Evasion and Mettle against it; it simply wouldn't do him any good. Likewise, he'd have Mettle against a Fireball and Mettle against Slay Living; it just wouldn't help very much. This would eliminate the awkward "and/or" construction without really changing the way the ability works. It'd be interesting to experiment with this a bit. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking an Abjurer 5/Spellspar Master 5 could be topped off nicely with either Master Specialist or Incantatrix.
Empirate 11-26-07, 07:49 AM	While I very much like this PrC, it doesn't solve the underlying problem of the Counterspelling mechanic: Basically, you waste your action (i.e., your potential to positively impact the outcome of an encounter) to forestall another's action - which he may then choose not to take. Counterspelling cripples your character's potential to do anything. It is strictly reactive, and you don't win battles that way. What I'd like to see in your Spellspar Master is an ability that allows reactive counterspelling without actually spending your actions for it. There is the Reactive Counterspell feat in Magic of Faerūn (iirc), which lets you immediately counterspell whenever a spell is cast, but this counts as your next action, whenever that would have been. Good as a starting point, make it a bonus Feat at 2nd level instead of Dampen Spell. Then maybe a 1/day ability to counterspell as an immediate action at 3rd level, and as a capstone a 1/encounter ability to counterspell as an immediate action at 5th level? Either that, or let Counterstrike disrupt spellcasting (i.e., possibly force a Concentration check) if you use a lower-level spell than the opponent, like a magical AoO. Remember that counterspelling eats up your spell slots without doing anything for you. Allowing it more easily for a dedicated PrC doesn't seem overpowered to me. After all, you're still only stopping enemy spells, not all the other "non-mundane" stuff you mentioned. This is pretty specific, and there's still lots of spells you can't affect (pre-cast buffs, for example, or quickened spells). BTW, I think that spell-like abilities should absolutely be subject to Spellsparring! They work like spells in all other regards, too, so why not here?
RobbyPants 11-26-07, 11:47 AM	Nicely done. :clap: Good crunch and flavor. This could be pretty fun to play in the right campaign. The biggest problem I see is that Spellsparring adds your primary ability score modifier to Dispel checks. By character level 10, a Spellspar Master might be tossing around Dispel Magic with over +20 on dispel checks (meaning they're guaranteed to dispel anything by an equal-level caster). By level 20, even without boosting their caster level, they could be casting Greater Dispel Magic with a dispel check in the neighborhood of +35, guaranteeing that they will dispel the spells of pretty much any caster they'd reasonably be expected to defeat (up to 4 levels above the PC's caster level). Just adding your class level to dispel checks ought to be plenty, IMO. Yeah, perhaps capping the casting stat at the class level would work too.
Pitiless_Interfector 11-26-07, 10:26 PM	While I very much like this PrC, it doesn't solve the underlying problem of the Counterspelling mechanic: Basically, you waste your action (i.e., your potential to positively impact the outcome of an encounter) to forestall another's action - which he may then choose not to take. Counterspelling cripples your character's potential to do anything. It is strictly reactive, and you don't win battles that way. It's a mage duel! What else would your opponent be doing, the hokey-pokey? And as to the last sentence, my friend's Monk 6/Swordsage 12 might have something to say about that. Remember that counterspelling eats up your spell slots without doing anything for you. I'd think turning the effect right around and pounding it into your opponent's face does a lot for you (If nothing else, it's an amazing ego trip). The Reflect Spells class feature functions on targeted, area, and ray spells, and even lets you take control of your opponent's summoned creatures. Let's see an archmage beat that! And by the way, did you actually look at the capstone ability? It lets you hit the bastard with a ray or targeted spell as an immediate action if he's within 30 feet and fails to cast defensively. Of course, he still gets his spell off, so you both go down together. Et tu, Brute? BTW, I think that spell-like abilities should absolutely be subject to Spellsparring! They work like spells in all other regards, too, so why not here? Umm, because they can't be counterspelled? Says so right here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) (Third paragraph). But I did remove the proviso that proscribed divine spells from being spellsparred. Oh, and in regards to the title of the thread: DISARMING RAY . Evocation . Level: Duskblade 1, Sorcerer/wizard 1 . Components: V, S . Casting Time: 1 standard action . Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) . Effect: Ray . Duration: Instantaneous . Saving Throw: Reflex negates . Spell Resistance: Yes . With a bark and a flourish, you cast your spell. . A beam of energy erupts from your pointed fingertip, . blasting your foe's weapon right out of his hands and . sending it spinning away. . When you cast this spell, you make a ranged . touch attack against any target in range. If . the attack hits, the target must make a Reflex . save or have any held items blasted out of their . hand (caster's choice of hand if the target is . holding items in two or more separate hands), . sailing through the air and landing 1d4+1 x 5 feet . away in a random direction (see Missing With a . Thrown Weapon, PHB 158).
dman11235 11-26-07, 10:45 PM	Good spell too.
Pitiless_Interfector 11-27-07, 07:42 PM	Good spell too. I'm still not sure about the school, though. Telekinesis, levitate, disintegrate, and friends are all transmutation, but I personally feel evocation makes more sense (not merely for this spell, but the others mentioned in this post, as well). What are your thoughts?
dman11235 11-27-07, 10:13 PM	It should probably be transmutation (as wierd as that would be). Also, Telekenesis is a level 5 spell, but since it has no save for the combat maneuvers and no touch attack required and doesn't have as may options, I think level 1 would be fine. A little on the powerful side for a level one spell, but it probably belongs there. Well, it doesn't evoc, it doesn't conjure, it doesn't abjure, it doesn't illuse, it doesn't enchant, it doesn't necro, and it doesn't divine. It also doesn't transmute, but that's the closest one. And since others like it are there, it belongs there.
Pitiless_Interfector 11-28-07, 05:14 PM	It should probably be transmutation (as wierd as that would be). Also, Telekenesis is a level 5 spell, but since it has no save for the combat maneuvers and no touch attack required and doesn't have as may options, I think level 1 would be fine. A little on the powerful side for a level one spell, but it probably belongs there. Well, it doesn't evoc, it doesn't conjure, it doesn't abjure, it doesn't illuse, it doesn't enchant, it doesn't necro, and it doesn't divine. It also doesn't transmute, but that's the closest one. And since others like it are there, it belongs there. Actually, it's more complicated than that: Abjuration: It could be an abjuration, since abjurations have a pre-empt, repel, halt, or generally interfere shtick. Repulsion and rejection (Cleric spell; blasts everything in a 60-ft.-cone away from you like Yoda on crack) are both abjuration Conjuration: The beam could be a Conjuration (creation) effect (probably with the [Force] descriptor). The second incarnation that I'm working on will not be subject to SR, fitting in line with spells such as orb of force. Divination: Okay, you got me here. Enchantment: Again, no dice. Evocation: It could easily be evocation, since it creates something (a beam of energy) from nothing, and is tied more to energy than to a tangible object (though the whole Evocation/Conjuration (Creation) issue is essentially moot). Fireball isn't transmutation, even though when cast in a sandy desert it can have the same effect as transmutation spells like transmute sand to glass or vitrify (which also has the [Fire] descriptor). Illusion: It could be an Illusion (Shadow) effect that makes you think it was blasted out of your hand. (Okay, it'd take a complete rewrite, but it could be done). Necromancy: I'm not too confident on this one. Perhaps the energy bolt is composed of energy distilled from your own life force/soul/essentia pool? Not a good bet. Transmutation: And finally, the bastard child of the 8-school system. This one is so vaguely defined it's almost meaningless. Actually, all schools are meaningless, but a school whose constituent spells "change something about the target" really is worthless. If a spell doesn't change something about the target, you're wearing too much armor.
dman11235 11-28-07, 05:46 PM	Actually, fireball can't do that. Well, it's a little more complicated than that. It's changing the subject, as in, the physical subject directly. Does a fireball directly change the subject? No, it causes energy to appear and the energy harms the subject. This can possibly be evocation, as it's a ray of something that you control and is almost like a force effect, but transmutation is probably best, as it's also the school of Telekenesis. Conjuration doesn't works, because you aren't conjuring anything. If it was a blast of physical force (like orb of force), then it could be, but it would be a different thing (disarm attempt opposed by strength or something). Abjuration....no.The method that repulsion and such work on is not anything like this. Those are more like anti-life shell.