Post/Author/DateTime	Post
teshen 03-13-08, 02:50 PM	I've always liked the iaijustsu master out of Oriental Adventures, but I never liked the fact that it stretched out over ten levels. I feel like fighting style prcs should be like similiar to the spell/spell focus prcs like argent savant or the force missle mage. Here's a slightly different five level version. Any opinions? Iaijutsu master Hit die: d8 Requirements Alignment: Any non-chaotic Base attack bonus: +8 Skills: Iaijutsu focus 10 ranks Feats: Improved initiative, Quick draw, Weapon focus (katana) Class Skills: Balance (dex), Climb (str), Craft (int), Diplomacy (chr), Escape artist (dex), Iaijutsu focus (chr), Jump (str), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Royalty and Nobility), Perform (chr), Profession (wis), Ride (dex), Sense motive (wis), Spot (wis), and Tumble. Skill points per level: 4 + Intelligence modifier. Lv Base Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +0 +2 +0 Graceful Katana, Canny Defense 2 +2 +0 +3 +0 Lightning blade, Ready the strike 3 +3 +1 +3 +1 Strike from the void 4 +4 +1 +4 +1 Strike with no thought, Ready the strike 5 +5 +1 +4 +1 One strike, two cuts Class features Weapon and armor proficiencies Iaijutsu masters are proficient with all simple and martial weapons. Iaijutsu masters do not gain any proficiency with armor or shields. Graceful Katana At first level, an iaijutsu master may apply the benefits of the feat weapon finesse to any katana he wields if he has the feat. Canny Defense When not wearing armor or using a shield, an iaijutsu master adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per iaijutsu class level to his Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a katana. If an iaijutsu master is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, he also loses this bonus. Lightning blade An iaijutsu master of second level and higher adds one per level of iaijutsu master to his initiative checks. Ready the strike An iaijutsu master of second level and higher may sheath his weapon as a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. At fourth level, he may do so as a swift action. Strike from the void An iaijutsu master of third level and higher adds one per point of charisma modifier per level in iaijutsu master to each extra damage die gained from using the iaijutsu focus skill on his first iaijutsu strike in the round. Strike with no thought If an iaijutsu master begins combat (not an iaijutsu duel) within melee range of an opponent, he gains a free surprise round, even though his opponents are aware of his presence. The only action the iaijutsu master can take in this surprise roundis an attack action using a katana. This ability reflects the iaijutsu master's ability to apply the principles of the iaijutsu duel in normal melee combat. It does not give the iaijutsu master any additional benefit within an iaijutsu duel. One strike, two cuts At fifth level, an iaijutsu master can make two attacks with a katana as a standard action. This means he can strike twice and move in the same round, or attack twice in the strike phase of an iaijutsu duel.
Baninor 03-16-08, 02:48 PM	For the prerequisites your getting way too many abilities in 5 levels. This was one of the reasons it was spread over 10 level. Also Iaijutsu while seemingly a nice skill, is just bad. It literally destroyed an adventure I was in. The dice by itself is not too bad for 1 attack. But when you add Charisma to -each- dice and mix in some sort of Dire Charge/Lion Charge and skill focus or magic items of Iaijutsu Focus. Suddenly your doing 200+ dmg per hit for up to 8 attacks and the adventure is over
calronmoonflower 03-17-08, 12:42 AM	You get a max of 9d6 per attack with iaijutsu focus, +4 bonus X 9 = 36. The problem seems to be the ability to add it to 8 attacks rather than the Cha bonus per die being broken. Still it could be redone to adding the damage to each attack rather than each die. That should nerf the problem.
teshen 03-17-08, 08:43 PM	For the prerequisites your getting way too many abilities in 5 levels. This was one of the reasons it was spread over 10 level.Yeah, and a couple of really boring levels and a few where the additions were weak feats. For this I pushed entry prerequisites from a level six qualification to a level eight qualification. I also put caps on intelligence to AC, charisma to damage dice, and made the initiative boost level dependent rather than charisma dependent. These changes cut out some of the item boosting. Also Iaijutsu while seemingly a nice skill, is just bad. It literally destroyed an adventure I was in. The dice by itself is not too bad for 1 attack. But when you add Charisma to -each- dice and mix in some sort of Dire Charge/Lion Charge and skill focus or magic items of Iaijutsu Focus. Suddenly your doing 200+ dmg per hit for up to 8 attacks and the adventure is overI feel that sneak attack is more dependable and easier to use especially with two weapon fighting, but I'll bite. How the holy **** did you get it to eight attacks? Free Action Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. . . . Draw or Sheathe a Weapon Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one. . . . Drop an Item Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action. . . . Quick Draw [General] Prerequisite Base attack bonus +1. Benefit You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action. A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow). . . . Yes it says you can take as many free actions as part of other actions as is reasonable. And drawing, attacking, and dropping weapons is... kind of reasonable. However, you can't draw more than once if you're using the katana/bastard sword as a martial weapon. Sword, Bastard A bastard sword is too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon. For iaijutsu you have to 1) attack a flat footed opponent 2) immediately after drawing a melee weapon. So you're looking at having to be in close range, connect with the hit, (all carry a certain amount of risk) and making the check. It's charisma based, usually a dump stats for fighter types, but you can gear around it with either magical items or a build that utilizes intelligence and charisma for fighting attributes... You get a max of 9d6 per attack with iaijutsu focus, +4 bonus X 9 = 36. The problem seems to be the ability to add it to 8 attacks rather than the Cha bonus per die being broken. Still it could be redone to adding the damage to each attack rather than each die. That should nerf the problem.Show me how you get iaijutsu with eight attacks and I'll change it... and also consider take off the charisma cap. I really believe the intent for iaijutsu is the opening big hit. How you are concentrating and making multiple big hits doesn't fit with a skill that requires you to make someone flat footed? Flat-Footed A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity. I know a bluff check can work, but that takes a standard action or possibly a move action... even a free action only attempted once per round (or maybe attack... I'll have to check) with something like the invisible blade prc. There is stunning. There is the blur strike weapon out of Races of the Wild, but you'd still have to draw a weapon thing going against you... I'm guessing flick of the wrist doesn't work with the iaijutsu master's favored weapon either...
Wih 03-18-08, 12:51 AM	Iaijutsu requires you to have drawn a weapon that round, not immediately before the attack. This is why One Strike, Two Cuts can both be Iaijutsu strikes. The easy way to get Iaijutsu every round is to have 10 katanas. Quickdraw, attack 8 times, and at the beginning of next round drop your weapon and draw the next one. As for how to get 8 attacks, that's easy. 4 (BAB) +3 (TWF) +1 (Haste) is an instant 4. 1 level of Barbarian for Pounce lets you do it on a charge. Feinting just makes your opponent lose their Dex, not become Flat-Footed. You need some extra obscure feat or rule to make someone Flat-Footed a lot, such as Confound the Big Folk, or Acrobatic Tumble. What it comes down to is that 9*CHA to damage on every attack was broken. I would be comfortable with Iaijutsu Master being a 5 level class if Strike from the Void became +CHA to damage with Iaijutsu Strike, rather than per dice of Iaijutsu Strike, and if the requirements were to make the class a higher level to enter. Being able to attack twice with a standard action, and CHA to initiative is pretty swanky, along with the other benefits.
calronmoonflower 03-18-08, 02:36 AM	Show me how you get iaijutsu with eight attacks and I'll change it... and also consider take off the charisma cap. Huh, someone beat me to it.
teshen 03-18-08, 03:50 PM	Iaijutsu requires you to have drawn a weapon that round, not immediately before the attack. This is why One Strike, Two Cuts can both be Iaijutsu strikes.I took that text directly from OA. So that is how it works. But, yours is one interpretation. The easy way to get Iaijutsu every round is to have 10 katanas. Quickdraw, attack 8 times, and at the beginning of next round drop your weapon and draw the next one. As for how to get 8 attacks, that's easy. 4 (BAB) +3 (TWF) +1 (Haste) is an instant 4. 1 level of Barbarian for Pounce lets you do it on a charge.And this breaks my suspention of disbelief. I understand the reasoning involved, just not that it would work that way. I understand that quick draw makes drawing a weapon a free action. I understand that dropping a weapon is a free action. I understand that free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort and you can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. I understand that there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. And that's were it breaks for me. I'm familiar with iaijutsu from books and movies and martial arts... and you almost never see a guy with a crap load of swords that he's drawing and dropping... I understand that unless you have spent a feat on exotic weapon proficiency (bastard sword/katana) you cannot draw two katanas with the two weapon fighting tree in the time it takes to draw one. Feinting just makes your opponent lose their Dex, not become Flat-Footed. You need some extra obscure feat or rule to make someone Flat-Footed a lot, such as Confound the Big Folk, or Acrobatic Tumble.Cool. I overlooked that, then. I suppose the argument could be made/has been made that since you loose your dex, you are in a position where you cannot act normally... but this is a place where I'm happy to be wrong. What it comes down to is that 9*CHA to damage on every attack was broken. I would be comfortable with Iaijutsu Master being a 5 level class if Strike from the Void became +CHA to damage with Iaijutsu Strike, rather than per dice of Iaijutsu Strike, and if the requirements were to make the class a higher level to enter. Being able to attack twice with a standard action, and CHA to initiative is pretty swanky, along with the other benefits.And with this little revamp, it caps at +5 to each damage dice which is a possible 45 per strike. But I see that since you are allowing/allowed iaijutsu damage on many strikes even though that is not the intent since the game mechanic is attempting to emulate a real world fighting technique which uses a single concentrated attack, then I don't really know what to say to you. It violates what is reasonable for free actions. So I think the better solution is to make quick draw a swift action, allowing a character throwing light weapons to draw an throw as many weapons as his base attack allows... but that goes beyond the scope of what I can do with this...
Wih 03-18-08, 05:20 PM	My copy of Oriental Adventures says that you need to draw the weapon before you strike in that same round - nothing about only getting one attack, or that it needs to be immediately after - just that at some time in the round before you make your attack roll, just must have drwan your weapon. What printing is your copy? Wether or not drawing many weapons breaks suspension of disbelief, it's how the game works. And plus, you only need to draw a weapon each round, not each attack, so that's not so hard to imagine. And 45 points of damage per attack is still an extra 360 damage a round, assuming an easy 8 attacks a round. More so if you use anything interesting, like Avalance of Blades, Time Stands Still, xing Mongoose, Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike, Lightning Maces, Flurry...the list goes on. Adding CHA to damage is good. Adding it multiple times is better, even if it's a limited amount. Making Quick Draw a Swift action would make it so that no-one would ever be able to use more than 4 thrown weapons a round - Already holding 2 weapons, swift action with TWF to draw two more. Nerfing Quick Draw is not the answer - stopping CHA from being used multiple times in an Iaijutsu Strike is.
teshen 03-19-08, 03:41 AM	This is what my book, with a 2001 Wizards of the Coast copyright, has printed. New Skill Iaijutsu Focus (Chr) Use this skill to gather your personal energy (ki) in an iaijutsu duel. Check: If you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon, you can deal extra damage based on the result of an Iaijutsu Focus check. In addition, if both you and your opponent agree to participate in a formal iaijutsu duel, your Iaijutsu Focus check replaces your initiative check for the ensuing combat. . . . You can also use Iaijutsu Focus in preparation for striking an inanimate object, assuming no distractions. Your extra damage is halved, just like your ordinary damage. This is the technique martial artists use to shatter objects.So if the intent is preparing for a strike, concentrating on the action, how do you concentrate on many things at once... which is effectively what you are saying is happening by allowing 8 attacks in six seconds. Iaijutsu (居合術, Iaijutsu?), often translated roughly as the "art of mental presence and immediate reaction", is the Japanese martial art of drawing the sword. At least one author makes the distinction that, strictly speaking, iaijutsu consists exclusively of the portion of combat where the sword is drawn, and that any further techniques are technically classified as kenjutsu. . . . Iaijutsu was developed for the specific combative purpose of defending oneself, not on the battlefield, but in everyday life. A central feature of iaijutsu is, therefore, drawing the sword from several traditional sitting postures, including seiza, iai-goshi, and tate-hiza. Techniques from a standing posture (tachi-ai) are also studied. Additionally, with the emphasis upon defense during daily life, it was also generally assumed that combatants would be armed with a katana worn "edge-up" and thrust through a sash around the waist, and that combatants would be fighting unarmored. These assumptions result in a drastically different approach to combat than when combatants are armored and fighting on the battlefield. . . . Battōjutsu (抜刀術, Battōjutsu?) is a Japanese term meaning techniques for drawing a sword. It is often used interchangeably with the terms iaijutsu, battōdō, or iaidō, although each term does have nuances in the Japanese language and different schools of Japanese martial arts may use them to differentiate between techniques (e.g. standing or sitting techniques). The emphasis of training in battōjutsu is on cutting with the sword. All terms are somewhat more specific than kenjutsu or kendō which more broadly means simply sword techniques, and is often used to refer to techniques where the sword is already out of the saya. . . . Comparison with Iaidō and Iaijutsu The emphasis of training in iaidō is on quickly and correctly drawing the sword, striking, and returning the sword to its saya (scabbard/sheath). Battōjutsu usually incorporate multiple cuts after drawing the sword. Often the focus in any form of iaidō is on cutting with the draw (i.e. cutting from the saya, rather than first drawing the sword and then engaging an enemy as a separate action. Also called "Battokiri" translated as "cutting draw"). Consequently, battōjutsu students may also practice cutting techniques on real objects (on soaked straw mats), while iaidō students rarely do. . . . Look... I know that reality and dnd don't have a long history of interaction, but if a round is six seconds, and you have a ****ing armory strapped to you, how on earth are you going to draw a weapon fastened to you, attack with precision, draw another weapon, attack with precision, drop that weapon, draw another weapon, attack with precision, drop that weapon, draw another weapon, attack with precision, drop that weapon, draw another weapon, attack with precision, drop that weapon, draw another weapon, attack with precision, drop that weapon, draw another weapon, attack with precision, draw another weapon, attack with precision. Versatile unarmed strike, a feat that allows a character to change the kind of damage he does with his own fists costs a swift action. You're telling me it takes more time for someone to open his hand to deal piercing damage or to close it to do bludgeoning damage than to draw a weapon, strike someone, then drop said weapon, and draw another... and I just can't go with that. Everyone seems to want to point out that one or more free actions can be used but ignore that it also states that there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. Combine that with the concept that there were no swift or immediate actions when 3.5 was printed... and Oriental Adventures is older than that... but such things have been incorporated into feats and class abilities since then and in just about everything else, with an exception for previous/core material. That said, I think I'll remove the charisma element and make it a scaling bonus...
calronmoonflower 03-20-08, 02:35 AM	From Oriental Adventures pages 82 IAIJUTSU STRIKES IN NORMAL COMBAT You can use your Iaijutsu Focus bonus damage in normal combat too, but only when you are attacking a flat-footed opponent and you draw your weapon in the same round you strike. You don't need to draw, strike, drop, and repeat. The extra swords mentioned would be for further rounds so you don't have to sheath it. Still I think adding the Cha bonus to each strike works better than the scaling bonus.
StruckingFuggle 03-21-08, 09:17 PM	Everyone seems to want to point out that one or more free actions can be used but ignore that it also states that there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. It seems like it would be wrong to judge "reasonable" by human standards when, by the time you can do this, you're pretty much already superhuman ...
jaelis 03-21-08, 09:27 PM	Seems to me that if you want a shorter iaijutsu master, you should just play a gnome.
unundindur 03-22-08, 12:01 AM	Easiest way to do both is simply to narrow the class. Somewhere in the class you could limit the abusability of the skill, and retain all the cool stuff (cha to damage etc). That way you 1. Solve an issue of abuse and 2. Make a class work the way it should work, at an appropriate power level. It is really a shame when something like Iaijutsu becomes the target of extreme munchkinism, which happened to be the only reason people take that skill. IMO its a really cool skill from a fluff point of view, and a skill I really want to have integrated more fully into D&D, but that definantly requires a bulletproof system to support it. RAI is obviously on your side here, even though RAW may not be so. Fix it in your class and we are golden :)
teshen 03-22-08, 03:23 PM	It seems like it would be wrong to judge "reasonable" by human standards when, by the time you can do this, you're pretty much already superhuman ...At which I respond... ever notice that it's the casters and magic that break the reasonable barrier...where the fighter types still hold reasonably to it. The original version of Iaijutsu master can be entered at seventh level (base attack +6). We're only talking about two attacks here unless you've dumped the other feats into other ways to get some... and that means you pretty much don't have much mystically magical goodness to help you out that you haven't paid for... it's also kind of hard to survive as an intelligence and charisma focused fighter up until this point. And remember the pounce barbarian is a somewhat recent thing... and that with enough splat books you can already do anything... Seems to me that if you want a shorter iaijutsu master, you should just play a gnome. I've been waiting for a joke like this the entire thread... Easiest way to do both is simply to narrow the class. Somewhere in the class you could limit the abusability of the skill, and retain all the cool stuff (cha to damage etc). . . Yeah, I guess it would take 'fixing' the skill at this point. It doesn't matter that the craven feat does almost the same thing for two weapon, sneak attack fighters and that it's easier and more dependable to use sneak attack.
StruckingFuggle 03-22-08, 04:23 PM	At which I respond... ever notice that it's the casters and magic that break the reasonable barrier...where the fighter types still hold reasonably to it. To an extent, yeah - a somewhat broad extent, and it's one of the problems I have with a lot of melee fighters. But by level seven, even a fighter is capable of skill checks that only a very small number of top-level people can accomplish in the real world, and once you get beyond that you get into things that no one living can do, even with the mundane skills. Even for a fighter, it's possible in six seconds to move 60' feet and then make at least four attacks that all hit your opponent bad enough to be a serious blow and deal combat damage. Remember, too, one attack roll is not equal to one attack made, the way the game's set up you're making many attacks in a battle, and the attack rolls are just the ones that come close to being the ones you land on someone and deal damage. I just don't see it as unrealistic to attack and draw multiple weapons in focused attacks in that span of time. The crux of the issue seems like one of Focus. The drawing and dropping, well, your arms already need to move to bring about the other attacks, and I'd imagine that with 7 points of BAB, a warrior by that point should be able to set up their sheathing arrangement (since no particular way is required) and movements to bring their hands as a part of making that attack quickly back to wherever they're looking for. And as for dropping the hand, it doesn't take an unreasonable amount of action or effort to open your hand once your blade leaves their body and let gravity and inertia take over. The crux seems to me to be effort of Focus. And fluffwise, I'm willing to allow it because it's cool and 'epic' (not in the sense of Epic Levels), it's not necessarily realistic, but since it's on the upper boundary of 'realistically possible skill checks', I would personally, and this is just me - be fine accepting that when they focus, they focus on the multiple attacks. Or, can re-acquire this focus between attacks, because there's no action listed in acquiring that Focus, it's not even a swift action, not even an immediate action, it's something you can do in your spare time as a part of making an attack. Could a real person do it? Probably not. But, and this is the big part, so what? As a side note, the best way I've encountered to fix this possible problem of multiple Super Iaijitsus is to make it either a special Maneuver, or make Iaijitsu Master an initiating PrC for Diamond Mind that gets a bonus swift action a round to initiate a boost with that effect on the first attack made when drawing a weapon.
chibishuffle 03-22-08, 04:59 PM	no one has mentioned the bag of holding with a butt load of katanas in it yet? Thats how I always did it, you know you quick draw right out of the bag of holding until A) you run out of attacks or B there are no more guys to kill. Iajitsu master is one of those concepts that not only stretches the whole disbelief thing but really is kind of rude. After all he has killed everything before anyone can even go
StruckingFuggle 03-22-08, 06:33 PM	no one has mentioned the bag of holding with a butt load of katanas in it yet? Thats how I always did it, you know you quick draw right out of the bag of holding until A) you run out of attacks or B there are no more guys to kill. I like that idea, but I'm not sure that it would actually work... Iajitsu master is one of those concepts that not only stretches the whole disbelief thing Right... in a game that's, if all about, allows easily for doing unbelievable things. but really is kind of rude. After all he has killed everything before anyone can even go If you crush the entire opposition before everyone else can go, then either it was a) a very poorly designed encounter, or b) your 'turn to shine'.