Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bytestorm
11-26-06, 09:57 PM On his first level, the Abjurant Champion gains the ability "Abjurant Armor", it adds his PrC-Level to armor/shield-bonuses granted by abjuration-spells. It is said, that Abjurant Champions rely on "mage armor" und "shield" instead of physical armor.

At the end, there is is an example Abjurant Champion, and his armor-bonus ist +9, from only the "mage armor", which is, as far as i can read, a "Conjuration", not an "Abjuration"-spell.

I am confused now... does the "Abjurant Armor"(Su) now gives it bonus only to the spell "shield", or to "mage armor", too?
Omoikane
11-27-06, 12:46 PM I don't think you're confused... I think the designer for the class was.

Of course, you could house rule that mage armor would benefit from abjurant armor, but that would mean a combined AC bonus of +18 from mage armor (+9 armor) and shield (+9 shield bonus), which is a lot.
Bytestorm
11-27-06, 03:11 PM I searched the PHB and the SpC and found only 2 spells at all, that will be affacted by this Supernatural ability; that is not much:
- Ectoplasmic Armor (SpC. 77)
- Shield (PHB. 278)

But as you mentioned... +18 from mage-armor and shield would be way to much.
enygmatic_me
11-27-06, 04:37 PM Just out of curiosity how is +18 way to much?

Full plate +5 = +13 AC (+14 if you have a dex bonus)
Heavy Shield +5 = +7

So that is a +20 AC (+21 if you have a dex bonus)

Tower Shield +5 = +9

Now you have a +22 (+23 if you have a dex bonus)

This is just a matter of having the right amount of gold to obtain (50,000 + armor/shield costs) and the AC is constant. No need to spend rounds putting up spells that may be countered or interrupted or dispelled.
Omoikane
11-27-06, 04:41 PM Both spells do produce force effects which protects you from incorporeal attacks. Plus, you don't have to spend squat to get a +18 bonus from two measly 1st level spells, something not even 9th-level spells are capable of replicating on their own. Well, at least not to my knowledge :)

It's like a free full plate +5 and a heavy shield +3 for about a level 11 character (using the sample sorcerer abjurant champion in the book) whose got the spell slots to keep it up for a looong time.
enygmatic_me
11-27-06, 04:50 PM Ok, I can see how it overly powerful for how early they get it. As a first level spell though it isn't to hard to dispel. I'll agree it is overpowered, but not to the level that some people seem to think.

This class seems like a good idea that went bad when the proof-readers dropped the ball.
Omoikane
11-27-06, 04:51 PM Dispels actually check against the total caster levels, not the level of the spells.
Bytestorm
11-27-06, 05:02 PM Also, with "mage armor" and "shield" you got no armor check penalty and no arcane spell failure. And at second level, the Abjurant Champion can cast Abjuration spells as swift-actions.

So, +18 without any penalties is way to much, I think ;) And if you worry about dispelling, you still can wear a ring of counterspelling, what you easily can afford, when you can save the money of the +5 full plate ;)

For balance-reasons, I think it's quite ok, to only boost the shield-spell, but the examples in the text and in the example-charakter have to be errata'ed.
Omoikane
11-27-06, 05:04 PM A +9 shield spell at 11th level isn't all that overpowering, I agree. Of course, with mage armor being a conjuration, and the house ruling I suggested earlier only being an idea I wouldn't use on my own, this is all wonderfully irrelevant to most games :)

Shall we chalk this up to writer error and move on? :)
enygmatic_me
11-27-06, 05:07 PM Writer error, those people who are supposed to read through this stuff and spot porblems before we do, whatever the case someone dropped the ball here.
WarDragon
11-27-06, 06:56 PM It's not overpowering at all, considering that one targetted dispel can bring them down until you re-cast.

And by the way, the Sanctified spells Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor are both abjurations that give an armor bonus.
Kyuketsukiouji
11-27-06, 11:23 PM On his first level, the Abjurant Champion gains the ability "Abjurant Armor", it adds his PrC-Level to armor/shield-bonuses granted by abjuration-spells. It is said, that Abjurant Champions rely on "mage armor" und "shield" instead of physical armor.

At the end, there is is an example Abjurant Champion, and his armor-bonus ist +9, from only the "mage armor", which is, as far as i can read, a "Conjuration", not an "Abjuration"-spell.

I am confused now... does the "Abjurant Armor"(Su) now gives it bonus only to the spell "shield", or to "mage armor", too?

You're confused. The description of the ability doesn't say it works with mage armor, it says Abjurant Champions use mage armor to defend themselves.

The example character is written wrong.

Having the ability to give yourself +18 AC anytime, with just 2 level 1 slots, would be just a bit too much in my mind. That much AC for that little spell slot cost is a serious monetary cost advantage.
Osedox
11-28-06, 12:34 PM I think there is no question that Mage Armor should be an abjuration spell, "yea im conjuring a suit of full plate :rolleyes: ," pretty soon we are going to be conjuring fireballs, and conjuring death effects (Im for making the Orbs Evocation as well). That aside I can see how a class like the abjurant champion can easily be abused, therefore I have a few solutions for people who dislike the class:
1)leave it the way it is, allow mage armor to work, but make the entry requirements very harsh
2)allow mage armor to work, but change it so that they only get a +2 bonus at 5th instead of +5.
3)allow mage armor, change the class to either 3/4BAB and d8 Hd, or nerf the spellcasting progression.
4) disallow mage armor and change nothing:yuck:
frasmage
11-28-06, 01:54 PM there are actually a hadnful of things that benefit from this ability:
-mage armor
-shield
-greater mage armor (Carc)
-repelling shield (CM)
-deflect (PHB2)
-luminous armor (sp?) (BoeD)
-greater luminous armor (BoeD)
-ectoplasmic armor (SC)
mr.unknown
11-28-06, 02:21 PM If I remember correctly, the "protection from [insert alignment here]" is a abjuration that allows for AC bonuses (+2 deflection bonus to AC), thus it'll benefit as well. So by the time you're a 5th level abj. champ. you can still have a +16 AC (shield + protection from X) if you're fighting the appropriate alignment. You can raise that to a +21 if you spend an additional round & spell slot to cast mage armor, or a total of +23 for a greater mage armor.
Kyuketsukiouji
11-28-06, 02:43 PM there are actually a hadnful of things that benefit from this ability:
-mage armor
-shield
-greater mage armor (Carc)
-repelling shield (CM)
-deflect (PHB2)
-luminous armor (sp?) (BoeD)
-greater luminous armor (BoeD)
-ectoplasmic armor (SC)

Wrong. Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor aren't Abjurations.

If I remember correctly, the "protection from [insert alignment here]" is a abjuration that allows for AC bonuses (+2 deflection bonus to AC), thus it'll benefit as well. So by the time you're a 5th level abj. champ. you can still have a +16 AC (shield + protection from X) if you're fighting the appropriate alignment. You can raise that to a +21 if you spend an additional round & spell slot to cast mage armor, or a total of +23 for a greater mage armor.

Wrong. Deflection bonuses don't get anything, only Armor bonuses and Shield Bonuses.
DarknessEternal
11-28-06, 04:00 PM It's been officially stated that the Abjurant' Champion's ability does not help Mage Armor.

Check main website.
Bytestorm
11-28-06, 04:15 PM http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061113a

Thats what I found... But after discussing with you guys, I am no more confused yet. Thanks a lot.
enygmatic_me
11-28-06, 04:27 PM Simply put, an Abjurant Champion is capable of using Mage Armor to protect themselves (if they have access to the spell)...it is just the Mage Armor does not benefit from the Abjurant Champion's class features.
lancean
12-09-06, 10:13 AM Sigh. Surely somewhere in the world is a talented rules lawyer with training as a technical writer that they could hire onto their proofreading staff. This kind of oversight is sloppy. :mad:
Deviston
12-10-06, 01:39 AM ok. they have a shield bonus abjuration spell called Shield. im going to create a abjuration spell that gives an armor bonus called Armor. Shield also negates some Magic Missiles, Armor wont have that special bonu tho. hmmm... a few levels later i think ill make a Greater Armor... sound good all?
StruckingFuggle
12-10-06, 02:04 AM You think that's bad on it's own? Before or after taking Abjurant Champion, take three levels of Argent Savant - +2 AC from force effects, like Greater Mage Armor and Shield, with them automatically extended for free, and with +4 to the DC to dispel.

... take Suel Arcanamch 1, and it becomes a +10 DC ... meaning they're basically not getting dispelled without an AMF or MDJ. :D (especially if you also pick up Practiced Spellcaster).
Deviston
12-10-06, 05:19 PM but are the spells viable? to make the abjuration varient as theres a shield... why cant there be an armor?
DarknessEternal
12-10-06, 07:26 PM Same reason fireball is evocation and bull's strength is transmutation. It just is.
Deviston
12-14-06, 01:10 PM no.... you just compared a fire damage spell with a muscle mass increasing spell. im comparing two ac increasing spells that both "conjure" into being representations of man made objest to interpose itself between the caster and its enemies. almost the SAME durn thing. ur comparison is invalid. anyone see a problem in a Abjurant Armor spell? they have shiled bonus to ac, deflection bonus to ac, even profane and sacreds. luck too i think.... so why not armor?
bitnine
12-14-06, 01:26 PM They clearly meant for the abjurant champion to not gain an increased benefit from mage armor. That bit about using mage armor in the block is an unrelated article - and it doesn't specifically state that mage armor benefits from the abjurant armor ability. As for the example character gaining a +9 instead of a +4 from mage armor, that's just a typo. You know how example characters are.

I don't see how you'd possibly get the idea that abjurant armor would apply to mage armor - where is your confusion coming from?
Drachasor
12-18-06, 05:32 PM I don't see how you'd possibly get the idea that abjurant armor would apply to mage armor - where is your confusion coming from?

Probably how they cite Mage Armor as one of the defensive spells used by Abjurant Champions in the text of the ability that grants the AC increase. Additionally, every spell cited there besides Mage Armor benefits from this ability. Then again they also have an example character that has the AC bonus provided by Mage Armor increased by that ability. Basically, there is no where in the entire Abjurant Champion is there any inkling of an understanding that Mage Armor isn't an Abjuration spell.

I'd lastly note that since no core 3.5 abjuration spell provides an Armor Bonus (except for one which is relatively unknown and only works on incoporeal touch attacks) there is something wonky with the ability description. I suppose each person will just have to make their own abjuration that grants an armor bonus to AC -- which is silly, but apparently necessary.

-Drachasor
Bytestorm
12-18-06, 06:57 PM Still waiting for an official statement to this topic, like an errata? Isn't this an official forum?
Grey_Mage
12-18-06, 09:45 PM According to a poster above, it was already clarified on the main site *goes to look for it*
DarknessEternal
12-18-06, 11:59 PM Still waiting for an official statement to this topic, like an errata? Isn't this an official forum?

An official answer was given on the main site. Mage Armor gains no benefit from this PrC since it's a Conjuration.
Trean_McClan
05-19-07, 07:38 PM Everybody is forgetting the most important thing here. Armor Class is for monsters.:tongue:
rone_leah
05-20-07, 12:49 AM I'm just happy they didn't create a greater shield spell, like they did for the argent savant.
Deviston
05-21-07, 12:24 PM I suppose each person will just have to make their own abjuration that grants an armor bonus to AC --
-Drachasor

Look at that! Word of wisdom! Glad to hear them... such a sweet sweet sound. My question is answered, peace!
Gadren
05-21-07, 03:20 PM I still never understood why Mage Armor is a conjuration spell. I mean, don't get me wrong, it makes it alot easier for abjuration to be a prohibitted school, but I think with the addition of twin-school spells (like reaving dispel, an evocation and an abjuration) that mage armor should have become one too (an abjuration conjuration).
At any rate, I'd still take Abjurant Champion even if that entire ability was gone altogether. Still blows eldritch knight out of the water IMO.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bytestorm 11-26-06, 09:57 PM	On his first level, the Abjurant Champion gains the ability "Abjurant Armor", it adds his PrC-Level to armor/shield-bonuses granted by abjuration-spells. It is said, that Abjurant Champions rely on "mage armor" und "shield" instead of physical armor. At the end, there is is an example Abjurant Champion, and his armor-bonus ist +9, from only the "mage armor", which is, as far as i can read, a "Conjuration", not an "Abjuration"-spell. I am confused now... does the "Abjurant Armor"(Su) now gives it bonus only to the spell "shield", or to "mage armor", too?
Omoikane 11-27-06, 12:46 PM	I don't think you're confused... I think the designer for the class was. Of course, you could house rule that mage armor would benefit from abjurant armor, but that would mean a combined AC bonus of +18 from mage armor (+9 armor) and shield (+9 shield bonus), which is a lot.
Bytestorm 11-27-06, 03:11 PM	I searched the PHB and the SpC and found only 2 spells at all, that will be affacted by this Supernatural ability; that is not much: - Ectoplasmic Armor (SpC. 77) - Shield (PHB. 278) But as you mentioned... +18 from mage-armor and shield would be way to much.
enygmatic_me 11-27-06, 04:37 PM	Just out of curiosity how is +18 way to much? Full plate +5 = +13 AC (+14 if you have a dex bonus) Heavy Shield +5 = +7 So that is a +20 AC (+21 if you have a dex bonus) Tower Shield +5 = +9 Now you have a +22 (+23 if you have a dex bonus) This is just a matter of having the right amount of gold to obtain (50,000 + armor/shield costs) and the AC is constant. No need to spend rounds putting up spells that may be countered or interrupted or dispelled.
Omoikane 11-27-06, 04:41 PM	Both spells do produce force effects which protects you from incorporeal attacks. Plus, you don't have to spend squat to get a +18 bonus from two measly 1st level spells, something not even 9th-level spells are capable of replicating on their own. Well, at least not to my knowledge :) It's like a free full plate +5 and a heavy shield +3 for about a level 11 character (using the sample sorcerer abjurant champion in the book) whose got the spell slots to keep it up for a looong time.
enygmatic_me 11-27-06, 04:50 PM	Ok, I can see how it overly powerful for how early they get it. As a first level spell though it isn't to hard to dispel. I'll agree it is overpowered, but not to the level that some people seem to think. This class seems like a good idea that went bad when the proof-readers dropped the ball.
Omoikane 11-27-06, 04:51 PM	Dispels actually check against the total caster levels, not the level of the spells.
Bytestorm 11-27-06, 05:02 PM	Also, with "mage armor" and "shield" you got no armor check penalty and no arcane spell failure. And at second level, the Abjurant Champion can cast Abjuration spells as swift-actions. So, +18 without any penalties is way to much, I think ;) And if you worry about dispelling, you still can wear a ring of counterspelling, what you easily can afford, when you can save the money of the +5 full plate ;) For balance-reasons, I think it's quite ok, to only boost the shield-spell, but the examples in the text and in the example-charakter have to be errata'ed.
Omoikane 11-27-06, 05:04 PM	A +9 shield spell at 11th level isn't all that overpowering, I agree. Of course, with mage armor being a conjuration, and the house ruling I suggested earlier only being an idea I wouldn't use on my own, this is all wonderfully irrelevant to most games :) Shall we chalk this up to writer error and move on? :)
enygmatic_me 11-27-06, 05:07 PM	Writer error, those people who are supposed to read through this stuff and spot porblems before we do, whatever the case someone dropped the ball here.
WarDragon 11-27-06, 06:56 PM	It's not overpowering at all, considering that one targetted dispel can bring them down until you re-cast. And by the way, the Sanctified spells Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor are both abjurations that give an armor bonus.
Kyuketsukiouji 11-27-06, 11:23 PM	On his first level, the Abjurant Champion gains the ability "Abjurant Armor", it adds his PrC-Level to armor/shield-bonuses granted by abjuration-spells. It is said, that Abjurant Champions rely on "mage armor" und "shield" instead of physical armor. At the end, there is is an example Abjurant Champion, and his armor-bonus ist +9, from only the "mage armor", which is, as far as i can read, a "Conjuration", not an "Abjuration"-spell. I am confused now... does the "Abjurant Armor"(Su) now gives it bonus only to the spell "shield", or to "mage armor", too? You're confused. The description of the ability doesn't say it works with mage armor, it says Abjurant Champions use mage armor to defend themselves. The example character is written wrong. Having the ability to give yourself +18 AC anytime, with just 2 level 1 slots, would be just a bit too much in my mind. That much AC for that little spell slot cost is a serious monetary cost advantage.
Osedox 11-28-06, 12:34 PM	I think there is no question that Mage Armor should be an abjuration spell, "yea im conjuring a suit of full plate :rolleyes: ," pretty soon we are going to be conjuring fireballs, and conjuring death effects (Im for making the Orbs Evocation as well). That aside I can see how a class like the abjurant champion can easily be abused, therefore I have a few solutions for people who dislike the class: 1)leave it the way it is, allow mage armor to work, but make the entry requirements very harsh 2)allow mage armor to work, but change it so that they only get a +2 bonus at 5th instead of +5. 3)allow mage armor, change the class to either 3/4BAB and d8 Hd, or nerf the spellcasting progression. 4) disallow mage armor and change nothing:yuck:
frasmage 11-28-06, 01:54 PM	there are actually a hadnful of things that benefit from this ability: -mage armor -shield -greater mage armor (Carc) -repelling shield (CM) -deflect (PHB2) -luminous armor (sp?) (BoeD) -greater luminous armor (BoeD) -ectoplasmic armor (SC)
mr.unknown 11-28-06, 02:21 PM	If I remember correctly, the "protection from [insert alignment here]" is a abjuration that allows for AC bonuses (+2 deflection bonus to AC), thus it'll benefit as well. So by the time you're a 5th level abj. champ. you can still have a +16 AC (shield + protection from X) if you're fighting the appropriate alignment. You can raise that to a +21 if you spend an additional round & spell slot to cast mage armor, or a total of +23 for a greater mage armor.
Kyuketsukiouji 11-28-06, 02:43 PM	there are actually a hadnful of things that benefit from this ability: -mage armor -shield -greater mage armor (Carc) -repelling shield (CM) -deflect (PHB2) -luminous armor (sp?) (BoeD) -greater luminous armor (BoeD) -ectoplasmic armor (SC) Wrong. Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor aren't Abjurations. If I remember correctly, the "protection from [insert alignment here]" is a abjuration that allows for AC bonuses (+2 deflection bonus to AC), thus it'll benefit as well. So by the time you're a 5th level abj. champ. you can still have a +16 AC (shield + protection from X) if you're fighting the appropriate alignment. You can raise that to a +21 if you spend an additional round & spell slot to cast mage armor, or a total of +23 for a greater mage armor. Wrong. Deflection bonuses don't get anything, only Armor bonuses and Shield Bonuses.
DarknessEternal 11-28-06, 04:00 PM	It's been officially stated that the Abjurant' Champion's ability does not help Mage Armor. Check main website.
Bytestorm 11-28-06, 04:15 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061113a Thats what I found... But after discussing with you guys, I am no more confused yet. Thanks a lot.
enygmatic_me 11-28-06, 04:27 PM	Simply put, an Abjurant Champion is capable of using Mage Armor to protect themselves (if they have access to the spell)...it is just the Mage Armor does not benefit from the Abjurant Champion's class features.
lancean 12-09-06, 10:13 AM	Sigh. Surely somewhere in the world is a talented rules lawyer with training as a technical writer that they could hire onto their proofreading staff. This kind of oversight is sloppy. :mad:
Deviston 12-10-06, 01:39 AM	ok. they have a shield bonus abjuration spell called Shield. im going to create a abjuration spell that gives an armor bonus called Armor. Shield also negates some Magic Missiles, Armor wont have that special bonu tho. hmmm... a few levels later i think ill make a Greater Armor... sound good all?
StruckingFuggle 12-10-06, 02:04 AM	You think that's bad on it's own? Before or after taking Abjurant Champion, take three levels of Argent Savant - +2 AC from force effects, like Greater Mage Armor and Shield, with them automatically extended for free, and with +4 to the DC to dispel. ... take Suel Arcanamch 1, and it becomes a +10 DC ... meaning they're basically not getting dispelled without an AMF or MDJ. :D (especially if you also pick up Practiced Spellcaster).
Deviston 12-10-06, 05:19 PM	but are the spells viable? to make the abjuration varient as theres a shield... why cant there be an armor?
DarknessEternal 12-10-06, 07:26 PM	Same reason fireball is evocation and bull's strength is transmutation. It just is.
Deviston 12-14-06, 01:10 PM	no.... you just compared a fire damage spell with a muscle mass increasing spell. im comparing two ac increasing spells that both "conjure" into being representations of man made objest to interpose itself between the caster and its enemies. almost the SAME durn thing. ur comparison is invalid. anyone see a problem in a Abjurant Armor spell? they have shiled bonus to ac, deflection bonus to ac, even profane and sacreds. luck too i think.... so why not armor?
bitnine 12-14-06, 01:26 PM	They clearly meant for the abjurant champion to not gain an increased benefit from mage armor. That bit about using mage armor in the block is an unrelated article - and it doesn't specifically state that mage armor benefits from the abjurant armor ability. As for the example character gaining a +9 instead of a +4 from mage armor, that's just a typo. You know how example characters are. I don't see how you'd possibly get the idea that abjurant armor would apply to mage armor - where is your confusion coming from?
Drachasor 12-18-06, 05:32 PM	I don't see how you'd possibly get the idea that abjurant armor would apply to mage armor - where is your confusion coming from? Probably how they cite Mage Armor as one of the defensive spells used by Abjurant Champions in the text of the ability that grants the AC increase. Additionally, every spell cited there besides Mage Armor benefits from this ability. Then again they also have an example character that has the AC bonus provided by Mage Armor increased by that ability. Basically, there is no where in the entire Abjurant Champion is there any inkling of an understanding that Mage Armor isn't an Abjuration spell. I'd lastly note that since no core 3.5 abjuration spell provides an Armor Bonus (except for one which is relatively unknown and only works on incoporeal touch attacks) there is something wonky with the ability description. I suppose each person will just have to make their own abjuration that grants an armor bonus to AC -- which is silly, but apparently necessary. -Drachasor
Bytestorm 12-18-06, 06:57 PM	Still waiting for an official statement to this topic, like an errata? Isn't this an official forum?
Grey_Mage 12-18-06, 09:45 PM	According to a poster above, it was already clarified on the main site goes to look for it
DarknessEternal 12-18-06, 11:59 PM	Still waiting for an official statement to this topic, like an errata? Isn't this an official forum? An official answer was given on the main site. Mage Armor gains no benefit from this PrC since it's a Conjuration.
Trean_McClan 05-19-07, 07:38 PM	Everybody is forgetting the most important thing here. Armor Class is for monsters.:tongue:
rone_leah 05-20-07, 12:49 AM	I'm just happy they didn't create a greater shield spell, like they did for the argent savant.
Deviston 05-21-07, 12:24 PM	I suppose each person will just have to make their own abjuration that grants an armor bonus to AC -- -Drachasor Look at that! Word of wisdom! Glad to hear them... such a sweet sweet sound. My question is answered, peace!
Gadren 05-21-07, 03:20 PM	I still never understood why Mage Armor is a conjuration spell. I mean, don't get me wrong, it makes it alot easier for abjuration to be a prohibitted school, but I think with the addition of twin-school spells (like reaving dispel, an evocation and an abjuration) that mage armor should have become one too (an abjuration conjuration). At any rate, I'd still take Abjurant Champion even if that entire ability was gone altogether. Still blows eldritch knight out of the water IMO.