Abjurant Champion Variant Thoughts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Abjurant Champion Variant Thoughts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
deviknyte
12-31-07, 08:15 AM Would it be unreasonable to make a Divinate Champion or a Conjurus Champion? This would work well with every school except maybe Evocation, which is the most difficult to martial orientent. Abjurant armor can be changed to an ability for the school. Extended blank. Swift blank could be changed to a +4level adjustment metamagic that's less harsh from school to school. Swift transmutations of fifth level or lower is a bit much. Arcane boost can be changed to fit school. Martial arcanist is the same?

New requirements- Specialist wizards or specialist sorcerer (Beguiler, war mage, & dread necromancer. Home brew warder, summoner, oracle, bewitcher, and shifter).
StevenO
12-31-07, 01:58 PM Yes, such a change is unreasonable.

Given the combination of abilities the AbC provides Abjuration is the ONLY school of spells it really works for. Divination is about knowledge and standing in the middle of a fight doesn't seem like the best place to be gathering information. Making a Conjuration version of the AbC is just crazy; if you haven't noticed Conjuration magic is often BETTER at dealing damage than Evocation and offer more utility as well.

Part of why the AbC works is because there are few ways to use Abjuration spells offensively. Granted, Divination isn't so useful as direct offense it can often be done at anytime without much loss of effect while using Abjurations often requires use "right now" to take advantage of its buffs and protections.
Cold Napalm
12-31-07, 07:03 PM Umm with all the changes needed to make it balanced, you might as well just make a new PrC from scratch really.
Red_Wizards_Rock
12-31-07, 08:10 PM Making a Conjuration version of the AbC is just crazy; if you haven't noticed Conjuration magic is often BETTER at dealing damage than Evocation and offer more utility as well.

Conjuration is no where near better at damage dealing than Evocation. Conjuration is a cheap substute although it does have alot of utility and summons are good.
teshen
12-31-07, 08:54 PM The abjurant champion is a case specific thing. Tack it on something with mostly fighting levels and a one or two spell casting levels and it keeps the spellcasting levels from being :censored: useless.

Stick it on a full caster and you're not getting much of a return by turning a wizarding into a gish at late levels where he has neither the ac nor the base attack nor the hit points to make a gish work, especially when he would be better served by any number of casting prcs that give casting + casting boost rather than casting + some fighting ability. Giving a full arcanist levels in AC is like giving a rogue a holy avenger... yeah, he can make it work, but it's not worth it and still heavily debated. :rolleyes:
dman11235
12-31-07, 10:23 PM Need I point you to the orb spells, red_wizards_rock?

Anyway, the point of the abjurant champion is just that. A gish who uses abjuration spells a lot. It doesn't make sense to make a divinate champion, or a transmutant champion (which exists in the Master Transmogrifist (sp?) in a way). It's better suited to a new class altogether.
Sinfire Titan
12-31-07, 11:44 PM Conjuration is no where near better at damage dealing than Evocation. Conjuration is a cheap substute although it does have alot of utility and summons are good.

I play Evokers a lot. Let me tell you something, Conjuration can be a full-on substitute for Evocation. It has numerous DD spells, and they can go straight through an AMF. That makes the school much better at direct damage. The only thing it doesn't do is Force, which it has only one spell of (IRCC). Evocation is the most shafted school in DnD.
Cold Napalm
12-31-07, 11:47 PM I play Evokers a lot. Let me tell you something, Conjuration can be a full-on substitute for Evocation. It has numerous DD spells, and they can go straight through an AMF. That makes the school much better at direct damage. The only thing it doesn't do is Force, which it has only one spell of (IRCC). Evocation is the most shafted school in DnD.

Yep...orb of force...a conjuration spell that summons a non-magic orb of magical force...yeah...
Sinfire Titan
01-01-08, 03:50 AM Yep...orb of force...a conjuration spell that summons a non-magic orb of magical force...yeah...

I never understood the logic behind those spells. They are absolutely mind-boggling. How the Nine Hells does a Human Wizard hold an orb made of Acid long enough to throw it?
dman11235
01-01-08, 10:25 AM He doesn't. Flavor it like this: "Calling apon the arcane powers, he conjures a mass of acid, roughly orb shaped, and uses the powers within him to hurl this glob of acid at his enemy."

sonic: "With words of power and gestures of speed, she focuses the vibrations of her voice into a concentrated sphere, and then tosses the sphere at her opponent."

fire: It's just a flame thrower. I don't need a flavor example.

cold: "Pulling the heat out of the air in his hand, he forms a glob of air so cold it is liquid." The rest is like acid.

electricity: It's lightning, pretty much.

force: "Using sheer arcane power, she forms the air into a force. This force is not like anything ever seen, it is pure force. She tosses this force and all of a sudden, her opponent is on his back, writhing in pain from the concussion." Basically a concussion blast.

Oh, and conjuration has three force spells: orb of force, mage armor, and greater mage armor.
archerpwr
01-01-08, 04:12 PM He doesn't. Flavor it like this: "Calling apon the arcane powers, he conjures a mass of acid, roughly orb shaped, and uses the powers within him to hurl this glob of acid at his enemy."

sonic: "With words of power and gestures of speed, she focuses the vibrations of her voice into a concentrated sphere, and then tosses the sphere at her opponent."

fire: It's just a flame thrower. I don't need a flavor example.

cold: "Pulling the heat out of the air in his hand, he forms a glob of air so cold it is liquid." The rest is like acid.

electricity: It's lightning, pretty much.

force: "Using sheer arcane power, she forms the air into a force. This force is not like anything ever seen, it is pure force. She tosses this force and all of a sudden, her opponent is on his back, writhing in pain from the concussion." Basically a concussion blast.

Oh, and conjuration has three force spells: orb of force, mage armor, and greater mage armor.

I don't think you've addressed how these spells are nonmagical enough to be SR: No.
The_Shaman
01-01-08, 04:45 PM Well, if the acid itself is real and somehow, say, the fire from a fireball is magical...

You could say that we hare-brained laymen simply don't understand the finer workings of theurgy, but I'd say it's just arbitrary.
dman11235
01-01-08, 05:56 PM I don't think you've addressed how these spells are nonmagical enough to be SR: No.

Can heat hurt you? Yes, therefore the flamethrower. You just create the fire, and then the fire is non-magical. Electricity is that you just separate electrons off of atoms, and throw them at people. Just designate them as the grounding point, circuit being you-->them-->ground-->you. Acid is easy. You make acid. Sonic is also easy, you make a destructive sound and contain it in a rough sphere using air density. Cold is the same as acid, but using super-cooled gases, so cold that the air itself begins to liquefy. Force is just a concussion blast.
Cold Napalm
01-01-08, 06:18 PM Can heat hurt you? Yes, therefore the flamethrower. You just create the fire, and then the fire is non-magical. Electricity is that you just separate electrons off of atoms, and throw them at people. Just designate them as the grounding point, circuit being you-->them-->ground-->you. Acid is easy. You make acid. Sonic is also easy, you make a destructive sound and contain it in a rough sphere using air density. Cold is the same as acid, but using super-cooled gases, so cold that the air itself begins to liquefy. Force is just a concussion blast.

No sonic is the concussive blast by your definition. Force in D&D is MAGICAL force. Like force wall and force cage. These are not a barrier of concussion blast now are they? That is why the orb of force is so freaking retarded. At the VERY least that one should be evocation. The others, if your willing to ignore how the wizard himself isn't getting hurt with these non magical cold/fire/acid/electricity/sonic effect as he non magically tosses them, I can see conjuration. But since you can't ignore that part, it's still a WTF deal.
dman11235
01-01-08, 07:06 PM No, you see, (s)he magically tosses them, but as soon as they leave his/her hand, there is no magic. Also, what about mage armor? It's conjuration. Why can't orb of force be like a piece of the armor torn off and thrown?
archerpwr
01-01-08, 08:31 PM No, you see, (s)he magically tosses them, but as soon as they leave his/her hand, there is no magic. Also, what about mage armor? It's conjuration. Why can't orb of force be like a piece of the armor torn off and thrown?

You're taking us much to seriously. We are just amused how something that is nonmagical enough to pass through an antimagic field can be an orb of force/fire/purplebasketweaving.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
deviknyte 12-31-07, 08:15 AM	Would it be unreasonable to make a Divinate Champion or a Conjurus Champion? This would work well with every school except maybe Evocation, which is the most difficult to martial orientent. Abjurant armor can be changed to an ability for the school. Extended blank. Swift blank could be changed to a +4level adjustment metamagic that's less harsh from school to school. Swift transmutations of fifth level or lower is a bit much. Arcane boost can be changed to fit school. Martial arcanist is the same? New requirements- Specialist wizards or specialist sorcerer (Beguiler, war mage, & dread necromancer. Home brew warder, summoner, oracle, bewitcher, and shifter).
StevenO 12-31-07, 01:58 PM	Yes, such a change is unreasonable. Given the combination of abilities the AbC provides Abjuration is the ONLY school of spells it really works for. Divination is about knowledge and standing in the middle of a fight doesn't seem like the best place to be gathering information. Making a Conjuration version of the AbC is just crazy; if you haven't noticed Conjuration magic is often BETTER at dealing damage than Evocation and offer more utility as well. Part of why the AbC works is because there are few ways to use Abjuration spells offensively. Granted, Divination isn't so useful as direct offense it can often be done at anytime without much loss of effect while using Abjurations often requires use "right now" to take advantage of its buffs and protections.
Cold Napalm 12-31-07, 07:03 PM	Umm with all the changes needed to make it balanced, you might as well just make a new PrC from scratch really.
Red_Wizards_Rock 12-31-07, 08:10 PM	Making a Conjuration version of the AbC is just crazy; if you haven't noticed Conjuration magic is often BETTER at dealing damage than Evocation and offer more utility as well. Conjuration is no where near better at damage dealing than Evocation. Conjuration is a cheap substute although it does have alot of utility and summons are good.
teshen 12-31-07, 08:54 PM	The abjurant champion is a case specific thing. Tack it on something with mostly fighting levels and a one or two spell casting levels and it keeps the spellcasting levels from being :censored: useless. Stick it on a full caster and you're not getting much of a return by turning a wizarding into a gish at late levels where he has neither the ac nor the base attack nor the hit points to make a gish work, especially when he would be better served by any number of casting prcs that give casting + casting boost rather than casting + some fighting ability. Giving a full arcanist levels in AC is like giving a rogue a holy avenger... yeah, he can make it work, but it's not worth it and still heavily debated. :rolleyes:
dman11235 12-31-07, 10:23 PM	Need I point you to the orb spells, red_wizards_rock? Anyway, the point of the abjurant champion is just that. A gish who uses abjuration spells a lot. It doesn't make sense to make a divinate champion, or a transmutant champion (which exists in the Master Transmogrifist (sp?) in a way). It's better suited to a new class altogether.
Sinfire Titan 12-31-07, 11:44 PM	Conjuration is no where near better at damage dealing than Evocation. Conjuration is a cheap substute although it does have alot of utility and summons are good. I play Evokers a lot. Let me tell you something, Conjuration can be a full-on substitute for Evocation. It has numerous DD spells, and they can go straight through an AMF. That makes the school much better at direct damage. The only thing it doesn't do is Force, which it has only one spell of (IRCC). Evocation is the most shafted school in DnD.
Cold Napalm 12-31-07, 11:47 PM	I play Evokers a lot. Let me tell you something, Conjuration can be a full-on substitute for Evocation. It has numerous DD spells, and they can go straight through an AMF. That makes the school much better at direct damage. The only thing it doesn't do is Force, which it has only one spell of (IRCC). Evocation is the most shafted school in DnD. Yep...orb of force...a conjuration spell that summons a non-magic orb of magical force...yeah...
Sinfire Titan 01-01-08, 03:50 AM	Yep...orb of force...a conjuration spell that summons a non-magic orb of magical force...yeah... I never understood the logic behind those spells. They are absolutely mind-boggling. How the Nine Hells does a Human Wizard hold an orb made of Acid long enough to throw it?
dman11235 01-01-08, 10:25 AM	He doesn't. Flavor it like this: "Calling apon the arcane powers, he conjures a mass of acid, roughly orb shaped, and uses the powers within him to hurl this glob of acid at his enemy." sonic: "With words of power and gestures of speed, she focuses the vibrations of her voice into a concentrated sphere, and then tosses the sphere at her opponent." fire: It's just a flame thrower. I don't need a flavor example. cold: "Pulling the heat out of the air in his hand, he forms a glob of air so cold it is liquid." The rest is like acid. electricity: It's lightning, pretty much. force: "Using sheer arcane power, she forms the air into a force. This force is not like anything ever seen, it is pure force. She tosses this force and all of a sudden, her opponent is on his back, writhing in pain from the concussion." Basically a concussion blast. Oh, and conjuration has three force spells: orb of force, mage armor, and greater mage armor.
archerpwr 01-01-08, 04:12 PM	He doesn't. Flavor it like this: "Calling apon the arcane powers, he conjures a mass of acid, roughly orb shaped, and uses the powers within him to hurl this glob of acid at his enemy." sonic: "With words of power and gestures of speed, she focuses the vibrations of her voice into a concentrated sphere, and then tosses the sphere at her opponent." fire: It's just a flame thrower. I don't need a flavor example. cold: "Pulling the heat out of the air in his hand, he forms a glob of air so cold it is liquid." The rest is like acid. electricity: It's lightning, pretty much. force: "Using sheer arcane power, she forms the air into a force. This force is not like anything ever seen, it is pure force. She tosses this force and all of a sudden, her opponent is on his back, writhing in pain from the concussion." Basically a concussion blast. Oh, and conjuration has three force spells: orb of force, mage armor, and greater mage armor. I don't think you've addressed how these spells are nonmagical enough to be SR: No.
The_Shaman 01-01-08, 04:45 PM	Well, if the acid itself is real and somehow, say, the fire from a fireball is magical... You could say that we hare-brained laymen simply don't understand the finer workings of theurgy, but I'd say it's just arbitrary.
dman11235 01-01-08, 05:56 PM	I don't think you've addressed how these spells are nonmagical enough to be SR: No. Can heat hurt you? Yes, therefore the flamethrower. You just create the fire, and then the fire is non-magical. Electricity is that you just separate electrons off of atoms, and throw them at people. Just designate them as the grounding point, circuit being you-->them-->ground-->you. Acid is easy. You make acid. Sonic is also easy, you make a destructive sound and contain it in a rough sphere using air density. Cold is the same as acid, but using super-cooled gases, so cold that the air itself begins to liquefy. Force is just a concussion blast.
Cold Napalm 01-01-08, 06:18 PM	Can heat hurt you? Yes, therefore the flamethrower. You just create the fire, and then the fire is non-magical. Electricity is that you just separate electrons off of atoms, and throw them at people. Just designate them as the grounding point, circuit being you-->them-->ground-->you. Acid is easy. You make acid. Sonic is also easy, you make a destructive sound and contain it in a rough sphere using air density. Cold is the same as acid, but using super-cooled gases, so cold that the air itself begins to liquefy. Force is just a concussion blast. No sonic is the concussive blast by your definition. Force in D&D is MAGICAL force. Like force wall and force cage. These are not a barrier of concussion blast now are they? That is why the orb of force is so freaking retarded. At the VERY least that one should be evocation. The others, if your willing to ignore how the wizard himself isn't getting hurt with these non magical cold/fire/acid/electricity/sonic effect as he non magically tosses them, I can see conjuration. But since you can't ignore that part, it's still a WTF deal.
dman11235 01-01-08, 07:06 PM	No, you see, (s)he magically tosses them, but as soon as they leave his/her hand, there is no magic. Also, what about mage armor? It's conjuration. Why can't orb of force be like a piece of the armor torn off and thrown?
archerpwr 01-01-08, 08:31 PM	No, you see, (s)he magically tosses them, but as soon as they leave his/her hand, there is no magic. Also, what about mage armor? It's conjuration. Why can't orb of force be like a piece of the armor torn off and thrown? You're taking us much to seriously. We are just amused how something that is nonmagical enough to pass through an antimagic field can be an orb of force/fire/purplebasketweaving.