Abjurant Champion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Abjurant Champion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Magius_Rerecros
07-31-07, 08:32 PM I've looked at this class. A lot. And laughed my friggin' head off.

Because it's amusing, I'm going to ask the question: HOW exactly is this class balanced again? I mean, it gets full BAB AND full spellcasting, it automatically extends and quickens abjuration spells with no increase in casting time (for sorcerers), no need to prepare them as such ahead of time (for wizards), and no increase in spell level. Granted, the highest level quickened abjuration spell through this method is 3rd (excluding epic-type progressions), but that's still pretty broken. Plus they increase the AC bonuses to spells like Shield and Mage Armor and whatnot. A 5th level Battle Sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana sorcerer variant)/5th level Abjurant Champion could get +13 to his AC for 20 minutes with ONE FREAKING SPELL CASTED AS A SWIFT ACTION! And then of course the Abjurant Champion gives you a much better caster level (for fighter/wizards or whatever) by making your caster level equal to your BAB. The only ability that isn't insanely powerful is Arcane Boost, which is still useful in certain situations (like burning a 9th level spell slot for no particular reason to give you another +9 insight bonus to AC for a round).
Arkeas
07-31-07, 11:10 PM 1) Mage armor is conjuration.

2) What spell gives you +13 AC? Greater Mage Armor or something? Core, for AC purposes, only involves shield. Oh, no, +9 AC. At level 10, maybe. That doesn't put you ridiculously ahead of the rest of the party.

3) You can actually only quicken level 2 spells. It rounds down. That means that you can resist elements or protect from arrows quickly. Wow.

4) Powerful? Yes. Ridiculous? No.
Jungingen
08-01-07, 12:23 AM Another problem with AC is that you can't fit 5 levels in it and 10 levels in another PrC into a Gish build before 20. That means that taking 5 levels of AC sets you back on Epic Feats since you won't be able to begin epic progression on any of your classes immediately.

If AC were a 10-level PrC with full BAB, full spellcasting and d10 HD, then I'd be more concerned. As it stands it certainly doesn't unbalance lower-level groups, since Gishes are usually behind on BAB and spell progression at that point. In higher-level or Epic groups, it's a trade-off anyway. Also, there's still the dump feat requirement. Gish builds are usually under a lot of pressure to conserve feats and throwing Combat Casting onto every Gish build doesn't help.
StevenO
08-01-07, 12:30 AM You actually can quicken 3rd level spells. In this case the book text specifies "Round Up" for that section.

As for the AbC being balanced it kind of is. The Battle Sorcerer variation is DEFINITELY the class that comes closest to breaking the AbC. I do hate to break it to you but even the Battle Sorcerer needs to be 7th level before entering Abjurant Champion. That +5 BAB requirement I believe allows only two classes to possibly enter at 6th level but I don't think the AbC is broken for either the Hex' or Dusk' blades. Generally, you will not be entering the AbC before 7th level and the sooner it would be able to enter the class the less devistating that spellcasting actually is.

The AbC could be entered with a warrior5/caster1 in which case the character is basically giving up a +1 BAB and some hp for the caster level plus six levels of abilities for spells up to 3rd level. At 11th level 3rd level spells may be useful but they aren't nearly the same as the 6th level spells available to straight wizards or cleric. The other extreme is going AbC after 10 levels of straight caster taking advantage of even levels to get the most out of a +1/2 BAB. Here those 5 levels are a nice boost in HP along with some BAB help but at this level arcane casters are already considered nearly "the best" character class so those HP and +3 BAB are often insignificant.

As for the class features I don't thing the extend and quicken are world breaking. They are nice for low caster levels but with a higher caster level extend often becomes irrelavent (they already last long enough) and quicken just allows an encounter to start now as opposed to wait while the caster buffs. The AC boost is certainly helpful but you often hear people say that at higher levels BABs are high enough that AC rarely matters. As for the big step in caster level it does make a nice capstone ability; the character that need it the most probably aren't using direct combat spells anyway so this just helps their buff durations while the dedicated arcanist may not see any CL boost from it at all.

As much as I'd like to agree about the AbC being broken it really isn't. I like what it does for some character and I feel the +5 BAB prereq is really what keeps it from being broken as it mean the character is mostly martial with a touch of spellcasting or is already a powerful spellcaster.
Twylyght
08-01-07, 03:19 PM Yeah I think the class is fine balance wise. The only thing I know off that might considerably break it is the luminous armor spells from the BoED. Stacked with shield greater luminous armor could be as high as +22 AC, and bestows a -4 penalty on melee attacks made against you.

Still.... the abjurant champion in any case is still one dispell magic away from a face plant.
curtisjo
08-01-07, 05:23 PM Is there a web resource for this, I have never seen it and I don't have CM. Thanks
JLaurHughes
08-01-07, 06:59 PM Yeah I think the class is fine balance wise. The only thing I know off that might considerably break it is the luminous armor spells from the BoED. Stacked with shield greater luminous armor could be as high as +22 AC, and bestows a -4 penalty on melee attacks made against you.

Still.... the abjurant champion in any case is still one dispell magic away from a face plant.

Aside from having to be 16th level to get the Luminous Armor spells(which are Sanctified spells that the Exalted Arcanist gains access to at the 5th level of the PrC). Having a +30 to AC (Greater Luminious Armor[Armor Bonus]BoED, Haste[Dodge Bonus]PHB, Shield[Shield Bonus]PHB and Exalted Armor[Sacred Bonus]BoED) at 16th level without Magic Items is great. Add in Magic Items(Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Gloves of Dexterity - all at highest bonuses that the character can afford) and Feats that provide additional Dodge bonuses(Dodge for example). There's a potential that your spellcaster will be up near an AC of 60. Which some people can gt up to with just armor and magic items as a fighter, Paladin or other full BaB class. Also by then you'll be able to give up a spell of up to a 5th level spell for an additional +5 Insight bonus to armor class by way of Arcane boost.
Mojo_Rat
08-01-07, 07:36 PM The Abjurant champion looked like a nice PrC to me. If its used as it appears to be intended ( 5 fighter/non caster 1 level of caster followed by the PRC) It looks like it will make for a nice fighter/melee type with self buffing but not really game breaking.

Obviously im sure it can all be twisted by somone trying to to make it more than it was intended.
Jungingen
08-01-07, 07:59 PM The Abjurant champion looked like a nice PrC to me. If its used as it appears to be intended ( 5 fighter/non caster 1 level of caster followed by the PRC) It looks like it will make for a nice fighter/melee type with self buffing but not really game breaking.

Obviously im sure it can all be twisted by somone trying to to make it more than it was intended.

Taking 5 levels of a full BAB class and 1 level as a caster, then starting AC is foolish. A better build is along the lines of Wizard 6/Ruathar 3/AC X. Still at full CL, only lost +3 BAB so you're still on track for +17 or +16 BAB.

That's not abusive or manipulative. The class is still balanced in that situation because first, you can't enter it until 10th level and second, it still only gets you as far as perhaps 14th level. If you do take it all the way to AC 5, then you may have shot yourself in the foot for Epic play. Even so, at 14 you're just an elf-hugging Wizard with +4 extra BAB and some armor bonuses. What's the big deal? Giving the Wizard a nudge in BAB doesn't break the game in any way, shape or form. In most situations he's still likely to be better off casting utility or control spells rather than meleeing anyway.
StevenO
08-01-07, 08:22 PM Taking 5 levels of a full BAB class and 1 level as a caster, then starting AC is foolish. A better build is along the lines of Wizard 6/Ruathar 3/AC X. Still at full CL, only lost +3 BAB so you're still on track for +17 or +16 BAB.

That's not abusive or manipulative. The class is still balanced in that situation because first, you can't enter it until 10th level and second, it still only gets you as far as perhaps 14th level. If you do take it all the way to AC 5, then you may have shot yourself in the foot for Epic play. Even so, at 14 you're just an elf-hugging Wizard with +4 extra BAB and some armor bonuses. What's the big deal? Giving the Wizard a nudge in BAB doesn't break the game in any way, shape or form. In most situations he's still likely to be better off casting utility or control spells rather than meleeing anyway.

Where it this Ruathar class as it is one I haven't heard of before? Entering AbC with a warrior5/caster1 is not foolish. Comparing the six levels (arcane 1 plus AbC5) to six levels of fighter (maybe not the best choice but this is a comparison) you give up +1 BAB, about 3 hp, and four feats counting prereqs in exchange for six caster levels granting 3rd level spells and all the other benefit of the Abjurant Champ. Many would consider that a fair trade as you can now enter a number of the other "gish" PrCs with taking the BAB hit normally required to cast high enough level spells to meet the prereq.

Just to clarify something an Elf Wizard10/AbC4 only gains +2 BAB over a Wiz16. It may only have a poor BAB progression but even a wizard's attacks go up.
JLaurHughes
08-01-07, 09:32 PM Ruathar is in Races of the Wild.
Twylyght
08-01-07, 10:50 PM Aside from having to be 16th level to get the Luminous Armor spells(which are Sanctified spells that the Exalted Arcanist gains access to at the 5th level of the PrC). Having a +30 to AC (Greater Luminious Armor[Armor Bonus]BoED, Haste[Dodge Bonus]PHB, Shield[Shield Bonus]PHB and Exalted Armor[Sacred Bonus]BoED) at 16th level without Magic Items is great. Add in Magic Items(Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Gloves of Dexterity - all at highest bonuses that the character can afford) and Feats that provide additional Dodge bonuses(Dodge for example). There's a potential that your spellcaster will be up near an AC of 60. Which some people can gt up to with just armor and magic items as a fighter, Paladin or other full BaB class. Also by then you'll be able to give up a spell of up to a 5th level spell for an additional +5 Insight bonus to armor class by way of Arcane boost.

You can pick them up a bit earlier if your casting class prepares spells. Sanctified spells can be prepared by any character who prepares spells and is of good alignment, and good clerics can cast any of them spontaneously in the same way they do cure spells. Granted I do believe the Exalted Arcanist is the only way to get them for a spontaneous arcane caster.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Magius_Rerecros 07-31-07, 08:32 PM	I've looked at this class. A lot. And laughed my friggin' head off. Because it's amusing, I'm going to ask the question: HOW exactly is this class balanced again? I mean, it gets full BAB AND full spellcasting, it automatically extends and quickens abjuration spells with no increase in casting time (for sorcerers), no need to prepare them as such ahead of time (for wizards), and no increase in spell level. Granted, the highest level quickened abjuration spell through this method is 3rd (excluding epic-type progressions), but that's still pretty broken. Plus they increase the AC bonuses to spells like Shield and Mage Armor and whatnot. A 5th level Battle Sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana sorcerer variant)/5th level Abjurant Champion could get +13 to his AC for 20 minutes with ONE FREAKING SPELL CASTED AS A SWIFT ACTION! And then of course the Abjurant Champion gives you a much better caster level (for fighter/wizards or whatever) by making your caster level equal to your BAB. The only ability that isn't insanely powerful is Arcane Boost, which is still useful in certain situations (like burning a 9th level spell slot for no particular reason to give you another +9 insight bonus to AC for a round).
Arkeas 07-31-07, 11:10 PM	1) Mage armor is conjuration. 2) What spell gives you +13 AC? Greater Mage Armor or something? Core, for AC purposes, only involves shield. Oh, no, +9 AC. At level 10, maybe. That doesn't put you ridiculously ahead of the rest of the party. 3) You can actually only quicken level 2 spells. It rounds down. That means that you can resist elements or protect from arrows quickly. Wow. 4) Powerful? Yes. Ridiculous? No.
Jungingen 08-01-07, 12:23 AM	Another problem with AC is that you can't fit 5 levels in it and 10 levels in another PrC into a Gish build before 20. That means that taking 5 levels of AC sets you back on Epic Feats since you won't be able to begin epic progression on any of your classes immediately. If AC were a 10-level PrC with full BAB, full spellcasting and d10 HD, then I'd be more concerned. As it stands it certainly doesn't unbalance lower-level groups, since Gishes are usually behind on BAB and spell progression at that point. In higher-level or Epic groups, it's a trade-off anyway. Also, there's still the dump feat requirement. Gish builds are usually under a lot of pressure to conserve feats and throwing Combat Casting onto every Gish build doesn't help.
StevenO 08-01-07, 12:30 AM	You actually can quicken 3rd level spells. In this case the book text specifies "Round Up" for that section. As for the AbC being balanced it kind of is. The Battle Sorcerer variation is DEFINITELY the class that comes closest to breaking the AbC. I do hate to break it to you but even the Battle Sorcerer needs to be 7th level before entering Abjurant Champion. That +5 BAB requirement I believe allows only two classes to possibly enter at 6th level but I don't think the AbC is broken for either the Hex' or Dusk' blades. Generally, you will not be entering the AbC before 7th level and the sooner it would be able to enter the class the less devistating that spellcasting actually is. The AbC could be entered with a warrior5/caster1 in which case the character is basically giving up a +1 BAB and some hp for the caster level plus six levels of abilities for spells up to 3rd level. At 11th level 3rd level spells may be useful but they aren't nearly the same as the 6th level spells available to straight wizards or cleric. The other extreme is going AbC after 10 levels of straight caster taking advantage of even levels to get the most out of a +1/2 BAB. Here those 5 levels are a nice boost in HP along with some BAB help but at this level arcane casters are already considered nearly "the best" character class so those HP and +3 BAB are often insignificant. As for the class features I don't thing the extend and quicken are world breaking. They are nice for low caster levels but with a higher caster level extend often becomes irrelavent (they already last long enough) and quicken just allows an encounter to start now as opposed to wait while the caster buffs. The AC boost is certainly helpful but you often hear people say that at higher levels BABs are high enough that AC rarely matters. As for the big step in caster level it does make a nice capstone ability; the character that need it the most probably aren't using direct combat spells anyway so this just helps their buff durations while the dedicated arcanist may not see any CL boost from it at all. As much as I'd like to agree about the AbC being broken it really isn't. I like what it does for some character and I feel the +5 BAB prereq is really what keeps it from being broken as it mean the character is mostly martial with a touch of spellcasting or is already a powerful spellcaster.
Twylyght 08-01-07, 03:19 PM	Yeah I think the class is fine balance wise. The only thing I know off that might considerably break it is the luminous armor spells from the BoED. Stacked with shield greater luminous armor could be as high as +22 AC, and bestows a -4 penalty on melee attacks made against you. Still.... the abjurant champion in any case is still one dispell magic away from a face plant.
curtisjo 08-01-07, 05:23 PM	Is there a web resource for this, I have never seen it and I don't have CM. Thanks
JLaurHughes 08-01-07, 06:59 PM	Yeah I think the class is fine balance wise. The only thing I know off that might considerably break it is the luminous armor spells from the BoED. Stacked with shield greater luminous armor could be as high as +22 AC, and bestows a -4 penalty on melee attacks made against you. Still.... the abjurant champion in any case is still one dispell magic away from a face plant. Aside from having to be 16th level to get the Luminous Armor spells(which are Sanctified spells that the Exalted Arcanist gains access to at the 5th level of the PrC). Having a +30 to AC (Greater Luminious Armor[Armor Bonus]BoED, Haste[Dodge Bonus]PHB, Shield[Shield Bonus]PHB and Exalted Armor[Sacred Bonus]BoED) at 16th level without Magic Items is great. Add in Magic Items(Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Gloves of Dexterity - all at highest bonuses that the character can afford) and Feats that provide additional Dodge bonuses(Dodge for example). There's a potential that your spellcaster will be up near an AC of 60. Which some people can gt up to with just armor and magic items as a fighter, Paladin or other full BaB class. Also by then you'll be able to give up a spell of up to a 5th level spell for an additional +5 Insight bonus to armor class by way of Arcane boost.
Mojo_Rat 08-01-07, 07:36 PM	The Abjurant champion looked like a nice PrC to me. If its used as it appears to be intended ( 5 fighter/non caster 1 level of caster followed by the PRC) It looks like it will make for a nice fighter/melee type with self buffing but not really game breaking. Obviously im sure it can all be twisted by somone trying to to make it more than it was intended.
Jungingen 08-01-07, 07:59 PM	The Abjurant champion looked like a nice PrC to me. If its used as it appears to be intended ( 5 fighter/non caster 1 level of caster followed by the PRC) It looks like it will make for a nice fighter/melee type with self buffing but not really game breaking. Obviously im sure it can all be twisted by somone trying to to make it more than it was intended. Taking 5 levels of a full BAB class and 1 level as a caster, then starting AC is foolish. A better build is along the lines of Wizard 6/Ruathar 3/AC X. Still at full CL, only lost +3 BAB so you're still on track for +17 or +16 BAB. That's not abusive or manipulative. The class is still balanced in that situation because first, you can't enter it until 10th level and second, it still only gets you as far as perhaps 14th level. If you do take it all the way to AC 5, then you may have shot yourself in the foot for Epic play. Even so, at 14 you're just an elf-hugging Wizard with +4 extra BAB and some armor bonuses. What's the big deal? Giving the Wizard a nudge in BAB doesn't break the game in any way, shape or form. In most situations he's still likely to be better off casting utility or control spells rather than meleeing anyway.
StevenO 08-01-07, 08:22 PM	Taking 5 levels of a full BAB class and 1 level as a caster, then starting AC is foolish. A better build is along the lines of Wizard 6/Ruathar 3/AC X. Still at full CL, only lost +3 BAB so you're still on track for +17 or +16 BAB. That's not abusive or manipulative. The class is still balanced in that situation because first, you can't enter it until 10th level and second, it still only gets you as far as perhaps 14th level. If you do take it all the way to AC 5, then you may have shot yourself in the foot for Epic play. Even so, at 14 you're just an elf-hugging Wizard with +4 extra BAB and some armor bonuses. What's the big deal? Giving the Wizard a nudge in BAB doesn't break the game in any way, shape or form. In most situations he's still likely to be better off casting utility or control spells rather than meleeing anyway. Where it this Ruathar class as it is one I haven't heard of before? Entering AbC with a warrior5/caster1 is not foolish. Comparing the six levels (arcane 1 plus AbC5) to six levels of fighter (maybe not the best choice but this is a comparison) you give up +1 BAB, about 3 hp, and four feats counting prereqs in exchange for six caster levels granting 3rd level spells and all the other benefit of the Abjurant Champ. Many would consider that a fair trade as you can now enter a number of the other "gish" PrCs with taking the BAB hit normally required to cast high enough level spells to meet the prereq. Just to clarify something an Elf Wizard10/AbC4 only gains +2 BAB over a Wiz16. It may only have a poor BAB progression but even a wizard's attacks go up.
JLaurHughes 08-01-07, 09:32 PM	Ruathar is in Races of the Wild.
Twylyght 08-01-07, 10:50 PM	Aside from having to be 16th level to get the Luminous Armor spells(which are Sanctified spells that the Exalted Arcanist gains access to at the 5th level of the PrC). Having a +30 to AC (Greater Luminious Armor[Armor Bonus]BoED, Haste[Dodge Bonus]PHB, Shield[Shield Bonus]PHB and Exalted Armor[Sacred Bonus]BoED) at 16th level without Magic Items is great. Add in Magic Items(Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Gloves of Dexterity - all at highest bonuses that the character can afford) and Feats that provide additional Dodge bonuses(Dodge for example). There's a potential that your spellcaster will be up near an AC of 60. Which some people can gt up to with just armor and magic items as a fighter, Paladin or other full BaB class. Also by then you'll be able to give up a spell of up to a 5th level spell for an additional +5 Insight bonus to armor class by way of Arcane boost. You can pick them up a bit earlier if your casting class prepares spells. Sanctified spells can be prepared by any character who prepares spells and is of good alignment, and good clerics can cast any of them spontaneously in the same way they do cure spells. Granted I do believe the Exalted Arcanist is the only way to get them for a spontaneous arcane caster.