Abjurant Champion: Slight Fix [Archive] - Wizards Community

Abjurant Champion: Slight Fix [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LonePaladin
04-21-07, 05:13 PM First off, let me point out this question and the sage's response:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061113a

Basically, the abjurant champion adds his class level to the armor or shield bonus of any abjuration spell he casts. Problem is, the ability itself lists mage armor as an example, and that spell's conjuration.

It gets better. In the stat-block for the example character, it shows that he has mage armor already cast and included in his stats. On his AC line, it shows a +9 armor bonus: +4 from the spell, and +5 more from his levels in the prestige class.

No errata has been released on this yet, but here's my suggestion: remove the word "abjuration" from the class ability, and simply let him apply the bonus to ANY spell that gives an armor or shield bonus to AC. Even using the Spell Compendium, Complete Mage, and Player's Handbook II, there still aren't that many spells he'll benefit from.

Sound good?
The_Shaman
04-21-07, 05:24 PM Kinda too good, imo. I mean, what's not to like about the AC even if his ability only boosted abjurations? It's a low-requirement, 5-level PrC with full BAB and casting, as well as some other stuff. Also, if it grants proficiency with martial weapons - I don't think it had that column - you can easily continue it with Eldritch knight.

I mean, it's weird that Mage armor doesn't get boosted, but it's already quite good. Getting +10 to AC (armor and shield) from class features would imo be carrying it a bit too far.
teshen
04-22-07, 08:51 PM Basically, the abjurant champion adds his class level to the armor or shield bonus of any abjuration spell he casts. Problem is, the ability itself lists mage armor as an example, and that spell's conjuration.
This has been discussed, just about ad nauseum before...

No. By the book it does not work with mage armor. That is how it works... and, in my opinion, that is stupid. But them's the rules.

. . .here's my suggestion: remove the word "abjuration" from the class ability, and simply let him apply the bonus to ANY spell that gives an armor or shield bonus to AC. Even using the Spell Compendium, Complete Mage, and Player's Handbook II, there still aren't that many spells he'll benefit from.
That houserule should work fine for your games unless you are in a low magic game or have less than the suggested wealth per level that the DMG lists... Some have voiced the opinion that it would be too powerful, but after one or two threads about Abjurant Champion, I'm yet to be convinced.

Kinda too good, imo. I mean, what's not to like about the AC even if his ability only boosted abjurations? It's a low-requirement, 5-level PrC with full BAB and casting, as well as some other stuff.
It is nice, but it's built with a certain niche in mind...

Also, if it grants proficiency with martial weapons - I don't think it had that column - you can easily continue it with Eldritch knight.The Abjurant Champion doesn't grant proficiency with martial weapons.

I mean, it's weird that Mage armor doesn't get boosted, but it's already quite good. Getting +10 to AC (armor and shield) from class features would imo be carrying it a bit too far....Possibly. If you enter as a straight wizard or sorcerer (which is a bad idea) you'd get in at level 11. It's built for, and is better for a multiclass... like fighter/wizard or paladin/sorcerer... or hexblade.

So it's either enchanted armor or spend two low level spells each combat to achieve a similiar effect... Mage armor, if allowed, would last most of the day... shield may have to be recast.
NineInchNall
04-22-07, 08:59 PM It's completely fine to do that.

Compare:
mage armor + shield = (4+5) + (4+5) = +18 AC.
twilight mithral shirt +5 + shield = (4+5) + (4+5) = +18 AC

I mean seriously, folks. If there's a Cleric (or Egoist) in the party, then there's no reason for a Wizard-based Abjurant Champion to eschew greater luminous armor anyway.
teshen
04-22-07, 10:56 PM It's completely fine to do that.

Compare:
mage armor + shield = (4+5) + (4+5) = +18 AC.
twilight mithral shirt +5 + shield = (4+5) + (4+5) = +18 AC. . .
Good point. :)
Tevin Kevlak
04-23-07, 12:11 AM It's completely fine to do that.

Compare:
mage armor + shield = (4+5) + (4+5) = +18 AC.
twilight mithral shirt +5 + shield = (4+5) + (4+5) = +18 AC

I mean seriously, folks. If there's a Cleric (or Egoist) in the party, then there's no reason for a Wizard-based Abjurant Champion to eschew greater luminous armor anyway.

True, but the first example is saving 37,000 gold on that +6 mithril chain shirt.
NineInchNall
04-23-07, 01:37 AM The point is that he's no harder to hit either way in terms of armor and shield bonuses.
Necromas
04-23-07, 03:06 AM True, but the first example is saving 37,000 gold on that +6 mithril chain shirt.

Unless the cleric casts magic vestment on a +1 twilight version.
Patinho_Amarelo
04-24-07, 09:59 AM Well..... Fixed-me if i was wrong, but, "Any abjuration spell wich give bonus to armor o shield" must also include spells bonus to natural armor (is a armor bonus no?), and few other spells in the books, isn´t only mage armor and shield, the existent spells wich abjurant champion have (Don`t forget Improved Mage Armor, or combination of Abjurant with Argent Savant, as few other spells) and still have the bonus of cast Abjurant Spells like swift action, wich have a biger list than spells wich provide bonus to armor or shield.
teshen
04-24-07, 01:58 PM Well..... Fixed-me if i was wrong, but, "Any abjuration spell wich give bonus to armor o shield" must also include spells bonus to natural armor (is a armor bonus no?), and few other spells in the books, isn´t only mage armor and shield, the existent spells wich abjurant champion have (Don`t forget Improved Mage Armor, or combination of Abjurant with Argent Savant, as few other spells) and still have the bonus of cast Abjurant Spells like swift action, wich have a biger list than spells wich provide bonus to armor or shield.
I think that most of the spells that will grant a natural armor bonus are transmutation. But in addition to that, an armor bonus and a natural armor bonus are indeed two different things. That's why armor and natural armor stack.

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.
. . .
An armor bonus applies to Armor Class and is granted by armor or by a spell or magical effect that mimics armor. Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with natural armor bonuses) except other armor bonuses. An armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks, except for armor bonuses granted by force effects (such as the mage armor spell) which apply against incorporeal touch attacks, such as that of a shadow
Tevin Kevlak
04-24-07, 03:50 PM Unless the cleric casts magic vestment on a +1 twilight version.

And if there is no cleric, or the cleric doesn't have magic vestment prepared then the above example is much more potent.
wonlee76
04-24-07, 04:55 PM Basically, the abjurant champion adds his class level to the armor or shield bonus of any abjuration spell he casts. Problem is, the ability itself lists mage armor as an example, and that spell's conjuration.

Agreed that it is a problem that the example is screwy but is it really a shock that WOTC makes a mistake like this? I've seen enough editing mistakes between Tables and Text or Examples/Sample NPCs that I expect those mistakes to occur now.

It gets better. In the stat-block for the example character, it shows that he has mage armor already cast and included in his stats. On his AC line, it shows a +9 armor bonus: +4 from the spell, and +5 more from his levels in the prestige class.

No surprise that an NPC was screwed up by failing to follow the rules. Its happened before, it'll probably happen again.

No errata has been released on this yet, but here's my suggestion: remove the word "abjuration" from the class ability, and simply let him apply the bonus to ANY spell that gives an armor or shield bonus to AC. Even using the Spell Compendium, Complete Mage, and Player's Handbook II, there still aren't that many spells he'll benefit from.

Sound good?

I think its a fair suggestion or houserule but personally I would leave it as is. Even without your proposed change, the abjurant champion is a really powerful prestige class. Your change makes it more powerful. I don't mean to imply it would make it overpowered but it would be more powerful allowing the AC boost to apply to any spell that gvies an armor or shield bonus.
crimsonwolf
04-24-07, 05:19 PM like to point out a class named war weaver ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LonePaladin 04-21-07, 05:13 PM	First off, let me point out this question and the sage's response: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061113a Basically, the abjurant champion adds his class level to the armor or shield bonus of any abjuration spell he casts. Problem is, the ability itself lists mage armor as an example, and that spell's conjuration. It gets better. In the stat-block for the example character, it shows that he has mage armor already cast and included in his stats. On his AC line, it shows a +9 armor bonus: +4 from the spell, and +5 more from his levels in the prestige class. No errata has been released on this yet, but here's my suggestion: remove the word "abjuration" from the class ability, and simply let him apply the bonus to ANY spell that gives an armor or shield bonus to AC. Even using the Spell Compendium, Complete Mage, and Player's Handbook II, there still aren't that many spells he'll benefit from. Sound good?
The_Shaman 04-21-07, 05:24 PM	Kinda too good, imo. I mean, what's not to like about the AC even if his ability only boosted abjurations? It's a low-requirement, 5-level PrC with full BAB and casting, as well as some other stuff. Also, if it grants proficiency with martial weapons - I don't think it had that column - you can easily continue it with Eldritch knight. I mean, it's weird that Mage armor doesn't get boosted, but it's already quite good. Getting +10 to AC (armor and shield) from class features would imo be carrying it a bit too far.
teshen 04-22-07, 08:51 PM	Basically, the abjurant champion adds his class level to the armor or shield bonus of any abjuration spell he casts. Problem is, the ability itself lists mage armor as an example, and that spell's conjuration. This has been discussed, just about ad nauseum before... No. By the book it does not work with mage armor. That is how it works... and, in my opinion, that is stupid. But them's the rules. . . .here's my suggestion: remove the word "abjuration" from the class ability, and simply let him apply the bonus to ANY spell that gives an armor or shield bonus to AC. Even using the Spell Compendium, Complete Mage, and Player's Handbook II, there still aren't that many spells he'll benefit from. That houserule should work fine for your games unless you are in a low magic game or have less than the suggested wealth per level that the DMG lists... Some have voiced the opinion that it would be too powerful, but after one or two threads about Abjurant Champion, I'm yet to be convinced. Kinda too good, imo. I mean, what's not to like about the AC even if his ability only boosted abjurations? It's a low-requirement, 5-level PrC with full BAB and casting, as well as some other stuff. It is nice, but it's built with a certain niche in mind... Also, if it grants proficiency with martial weapons - I don't think it had that column - you can easily continue it with Eldritch knight.The Abjurant Champion doesn't grant proficiency with martial weapons. I mean, it's weird that Mage armor doesn't get boosted, but it's already quite good. Getting +10 to AC (armor and shield) from class features would imo be carrying it a bit too far....Possibly. If you enter as a straight wizard or sorcerer (which is a bad idea) you'd get in at level 11. It's built for, and is better for a multiclass... like fighter/wizard or paladin/sorcerer... or hexblade. So it's either enchanted armor or spend two low level spells each combat to achieve a similiar effect... Mage armor, if allowed, would last most of the day... shield may have to be recast.
NineInchNall 04-22-07, 08:59 PM	It's completely fine to do that. Compare: mage armor + shield = (4+5) + (4+5) = +18 AC. twilight mithral shirt +5 + shield = (4+5) + (4+5) = +18 AC I mean seriously, folks. If there's a Cleric (or Egoist) in the party, then there's no reason for a Wizard-based Abjurant Champion to eschew greater luminous armor anyway.
teshen 04-22-07, 10:56 PM	It's completely fine to do that. Compare: mage armor + shield = (4+5) + (4+5) = +18 AC. twilight mithral shirt +5 + shield = (4+5) + (4+5) = +18 AC. . . Good point. :)
Tevin Kevlak 04-23-07, 12:11 AM	It's completely fine to do that. Compare: mage armor + shield = (4+5) + (4+5) = +18 AC. twilight mithral shirt +5 + shield = (4+5) + (4+5) = +18 AC I mean seriously, folks. If there's a Cleric (or Egoist) in the party, then there's no reason for a Wizard-based Abjurant Champion to eschew greater luminous armor anyway. True, but the first example is saving 37,000 gold on that +6 mithril chain shirt.
NineInchNall 04-23-07, 01:37 AM	The point is that he's no harder to hit either way in terms of armor and shield bonuses.
Necromas 04-23-07, 03:06 AM	True, but the first example is saving 37,000 gold on that +6 mithril chain shirt. Unless the cleric casts magic vestment on a +1 twilight version.
Patinho_Amarelo 04-24-07, 09:59 AM	Well..... Fixed-me if i was wrong, but, "Any abjuration spell wich give bonus to armor o shield" must also include spells bonus to natural armor (is a armor bonus no?), and few other spells in the books, isn´t only mage armor and shield, the existent spells wich abjurant champion have (Don`t forget Improved Mage Armor, or combination of Abjurant with Argent Savant, as few other spells) and still have the bonus of cast Abjurant Spells like swift action, wich have a biger list than spells wich provide bonus to armor or shield.
teshen 04-24-07, 01:58 PM	Well..... Fixed-me if i was wrong, but, "Any abjuration spell wich give bonus to armor o shield" must also include spells bonus to natural armor (is a armor bonus no?), and few other spells in the books, isn´t only mage armor and shield, the existent spells wich abjurant champion have (Don`t forget Improved Mage Armor, or combination of Abjurant with Argent Savant, as few other spells) and still have the bonus of cast Abjurant Spells like swift action, wich have a biger list than spells wich provide bonus to armor or shield. I think that most of the spells that will grant a natural armor bonus are transmutation. But in addition to that, an armor bonus and a natural armor bonus are indeed two different things. That's why armor and natural armor stack. In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified. . . . An armor bonus applies to Armor Class and is granted by armor or by a spell or magical effect that mimics armor. Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with natural armor bonuses) except other armor bonuses. An armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks, except for armor bonuses granted by force effects (such as the mage armor spell) which apply against incorporeal touch attacks, such as that of a shadow
Tevin Kevlak 04-24-07, 03:50 PM	Unless the cleric casts magic vestment on a +1 twilight version. And if there is no cleric, or the cleric doesn't have magic vestment prepared then the above example is much more potent.
wonlee76 04-24-07, 04:55 PM	Basically, the abjurant champion adds his class level to the armor or shield bonus of any abjuration spell he casts. Problem is, the ability itself lists mage armor as an example, and that spell's conjuration. Agreed that it is a problem that the example is screwy but is it really a shock that WOTC makes a mistake like this? I've seen enough editing mistakes between Tables and Text or Examples/Sample NPCs that I expect those mistakes to occur now. It gets better. In the stat-block for the example character, it shows that he has mage armor already cast and included in his stats. On his AC line, it shows a +9 armor bonus: +4 from the spell, and +5 more from his levels in the prestige class. No surprise that an NPC was screwed up by failing to follow the rules. Its happened before, it'll probably happen again. No errata has been released on this yet, but here's my suggestion: remove the word "abjuration" from the class ability, and simply let him apply the bonus to ANY spell that gives an armor or shield bonus to AC. Even using the Spell Compendium, Complete Mage, and Player's Handbook II, there still aren't that many spells he'll benefit from. Sound good? I think its a fair suggestion or houserule but personally I would leave it as is. Even without your proposed change, the abjurant champion is a really powerful prestige class. Your change makes it more powerful. I don't mean to imply it would make it overpowered but it would be more powerful allowing the AC boost to apply to any spell that gvies an armor or shield bonus.
crimsonwolf 04-24-07, 05:19 PM	like to point out a class named war weaver ;)