Anything like the Mysthic Theurge? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Anything like the Mysthic Theurge? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kuroimaken
07-29-07, 04:26 AM Hi.

I'm currently playing a Wizard3/Archivist3/Mystic Theurge6. I'm not particularly looking forward to it reaching level 10, because then I'll be forced to take levels in either Wizard or Archivist once at a time (since I can't get level 11 of MT until level 21). So I was pondering, are there any prestige classes out there that evolve both arcane and divine spellcasting at once like the Mystic Theurge? It doesn't even have to have any cool abilities, I just want to be able to evolve both at once.
The_Shaman
07-29-07, 04:51 AM Well, most of them seem to favor cleric than any other PrC (i.e. want domain access). The PGtF Yathrinshee may work, but it requires that the character be a drow female with a vile feat and worshipping a deity you might not want to care about. Other than that, if you somehow get an animal companion (animal cohort might qualify for that, but ask your dm - it will probably require an additional homebrew feat), you can try the RotW arcane hierophant.
Kuroimaken
07-29-07, 02:48 PM Arcane Hierophant, as I just checked, requires trackless step, not an animal companion... Which means only druids and rangers qualify. Other than that, it does have the kind of progression I was looking for.

I couldn't find the Yathrinshee, though.
Shedeo
07-29-07, 03:24 PM Libris Mortis, True Necromancer. Great class, works for what you're shooting for.
Zarreth_Nessad
07-30-07, 08:16 AM I couldn't find the Yathrinshee, though.
Players Guide to Faerun, pg 187
The_Shaman
07-30-07, 08:47 AM Libris Mortis, True Necromancer. Great class, works for what you're shooting for.

You need to find a way to rebuke undead and gain the death domain, though. These can be a pain... IIRC only the Divine Disciple gives you a free pick of a domain, and it is rather tied to worshipping a god, not getting divine energy through other means.
Kuroimaken
07-30-07, 10:35 AM Besides, we already have a True Necromancer in our group.
RealSorceror
07-30-07, 12:12 PM Geomancer or Dwoemerkeeper might be nice, although they don't solve the problem of having to take each class one at a time.

You may want to just take a few levels in Ranger or Druid to get Trackless step and then take Arcane Heirophant.

btw, Dual casting is so much easier for a Bard Druid. You can take Green Whisperer, Arcane Heirophant, Mystic Thuerge, and Folcyon Lyrist, all of which have full dual casting.
In fact, a level of Bard & a lvl or two of Druid, plus a template or Incarnum feat to get Evasion will get you into Folchyan Lyrist, and you can just have the levels stack with Wiz/Arch instead of Bard. Lyrist has dual casting, good skill points, and a full BAB. After that you can go right into Arcane Heriophant, and you'll be set for 20 lvls.
It'll hurt in the short term, but in the long run you'll have great Wiz/Arch casting, along with some good Bardic Knowledge, music, animal companion, and wild shape abilities (equal to a Bard/Druid of about 10 level)

I do like your Wizard Archivist combo, though. Uber spell book of doom, ftw.
Kuroimaken
07-30-07, 01:26 PM It's not originally mine, but I liked it because it means you only need one stat for spellcasting.

I'm considering taking a prestige class for Wizard up until when I can progress as a MT again, but then it has to be a very short class...
posternutbag
07-30-07, 03:37 PM Fochlucan Lyrist is great because it advances both Divine and Arcane, provides Full BAB and D6 with a great spell list. It would require some major multiclassinf over the short term, but if you plan to go high, its pretty coll. You could do Bard1/Druid1/Rogue2 over the nect three levels and with some good choices on your skill points slide right in and then use 20 levels of FL to advance your Wizard and Archivist casting, which, if I count right would give you 13th level casting in both at 20th level. Bardic Knowledge would be 11th level (I know you said it didn't have to have Class Abilities, but for a throw-in it fits thematically and is occassionally useful).

That, of course, is the Core way into FL. If you can sweet talk your DM into allowing a Ring of Evasion and a Druidic girlfriend, you just need 1 or 2 levels of Bard for the skill points, bardic music and Bardic knowledge and you can be on your way to the grandeur that is the Fochlucan Lyrist.
Kuroimaken
07-31-07, 12:39 PM Well, currently I have gained another level in Mystic Theurge, and am seriously pondering taking up levels in Fatespinner. I mean, up to +5 on any roll (or DC), +10 or -10 on a save (mine or someone else's) AND the ability to force rerolls? Sounds good to me.
The_Shaman
07-31-07, 03:06 PM It's a possibility. Or you could go incantatrix, ditch 1 school that your archivist casting covers anyway, and learn some cute metamagic and spell control goodness, or a lot of other things. Follow your character concept - I think you can get some good ideas for every role.
Kuroimaken
07-31-07, 04:36 PM Where IS Incantatrix, anyway?
Tuhljin
07-31-07, 06:54 PM Player's Guide to Faerun has the 3.5 version. It was originally in Magic of Faerun. Another PrC to think about that only advances the Wizard side is Archmage.

P.S. A good place to find out where official material (PrCs, monsters, spells, feats, etc.) is located is the Consolidated Lists Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists).
Magius_Rerecros
07-31-07, 08:18 PM Libris Mortis, True Necromancer. Great class, works for what you're shooting for.

Okay, that's a laugh. True Necromancer, a great class...? A whole lot of people consider this to be a very underpowered PrC, and if you want reasons, just check out the Revised Necromancer's Handbook. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599129)

Or, if some people are too lazy to follow the hyperlink (as I have been known to be at times), I'll quote it right here.

You are not going to play a True Necromancer!
A lot of people love the True Necromancer, even though it’s a completely crippled class. Even a Mystic Theurge is better, and that’s saying quite a bit because that class is a dog with fleas. You’re 5 real caster levels behind the curve. If you just took Leadership, and then your cohort took Leadership, both of the cohorts would have better casting than you (being 2 levels behind and 4 levels behind respectively). You can provide the party better and more powerful Necromancy as a single classed Fighter that happens to have Leadership than you would if you were a “True” Necromancer.

Top Ten Reasons True Necromancers Are Bad

1. At 14th level, you are five caster levels behind in both classes, so if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you. As a fighter.
2. You have to take the Death Domain as a Necromancer Cleric, which is a waste of a Domain Slot when you are trying to be good at Necromancy.
3. In the early levels, you postpone your access to Animate Dead by 4 levels.
4. At 8th level a True Necromancer can create, but not control Ghouls. A Cleric at that level can control but not create Ghouls. Guess which is better? At 11th level, the True Necromancer gets the ability to control Ghouls, and the Cleric gets the ability to create them, so there’s no point at which this is advantageous.
5. The only unique ability of the True Necromancer class is unimpressive. Desecrate is a great spell, but it’s also a second level spell.
6. True Necromancers eventually get a bonus to Rebuking – at 17th level they have a +1 bonus to their Rebuking level. But at 7th level they have a 3 level penalty to their Rebuking level. So at low levels when rebuking is good they can’t use it, and at high levels when Rebuking doesn’t matter they don’t care.
7. True Necromancers are always going to have underwhelming Save DCs. Between MAD and the fact that they are often forced to use spells that are 3 spell levels lower than what the single-classed casters can use, they’re going to be out enough Save DC that it shows. A lot.
8. As a True Necromancer you have all the disadvantages of both a Cleric (the gods can take away all your spellcasting at any time), and a Wizard (you have Arcane Spell Failure, preventing you from wearing good armor). Also, your BAB and HPs stink when compared to a Cleric.
9. Control pools from Animate Dead actually don’t accumulate between your two classes. It’ right in the spell, if you cast the spell it considers all undead you control from all castings of Animate Dead, not just your Arcane or just your Divine castings of the spell. Some people say differently, and some even quote CustServ, but when was the last time you won an argument with your DM using the line "some guy on a board said that CustServ told him....."?
10. There is almost no synergy between Cleric and Wizard Necromancy. Any synergy you desperately want to find could be replicated by just taking the Apprentice feat at first level and having some Use Magic Device. Get yourself a couple of Wizard Scrolls or something. It’s a better buy than setting 5 caster levels on fire. Smart cookies can even get the right spell effects off monsters for free, no less.
Shedeo
08-01-07, 08:37 AM Okay, that's a laugh. True Necromancer, a great class...?

For what he's looking for? It works. Well, did until The_Shaman pointed out the obviously cleric-requirements.

Well, I suppose that Dread Necromancer would work, too (I think), but that's besides the point anyway.
Magius_Rerecros
08-01-07, 12:38 PM Yeah.... I don't think that Dread Necromancer would satisfy here. He said that he wanted to advance both his arcane spellcasting and divine spellcasting at once, like the Mystic Theurge. The Dread Necromancer does not do that. First off, it's a base class, not a PrC. Second, they're arcane casters with a few divine spells added to their spell list. As such, it does not 'advance both arcane spellcasting and divine spellcasting at once', as he requested.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kuroimaken 07-29-07, 04:26 AM	Hi. I'm currently playing a Wizard3/Archivist3/Mystic Theurge6. I'm not particularly looking forward to it reaching level 10, because then I'll be forced to take levels in either Wizard or Archivist once at a time (since I can't get level 11 of MT until level 21). So I was pondering, are there any prestige classes out there that evolve both arcane and divine spellcasting at once like the Mystic Theurge? It doesn't even have to have any cool abilities, I just want to be able to evolve both at once.
The_Shaman 07-29-07, 04:51 AM	Well, most of them seem to favor cleric than any other PrC (i.e. want domain access). The PGtF Yathrinshee may work, but it requires that the character be a drow female with a vile feat and worshipping a deity you might not want to care about. Other than that, if you somehow get an animal companion (animal cohort might qualify for that, but ask your dm - it will probably require an additional homebrew feat), you can try the RotW arcane hierophant.
Kuroimaken 07-29-07, 02:48 PM	Arcane Hierophant, as I just checked, requires trackless step, not an animal companion... Which means only druids and rangers qualify. Other than that, it does have the kind of progression I was looking for. I couldn't find the Yathrinshee, though.
Shedeo 07-29-07, 03:24 PM	Libris Mortis, True Necromancer. Great class, works for what you're shooting for.
Zarreth_Nessad 07-30-07, 08:16 AM	I couldn't find the Yathrinshee, though. Players Guide to Faerun, pg 187
The_Shaman 07-30-07, 08:47 AM	Libris Mortis, True Necromancer. Great class, works for what you're shooting for. You need to find a way to rebuke undead and gain the death domain, though. These can be a pain... IIRC only the Divine Disciple gives you a free pick of a domain, and it is rather tied to worshipping a god, not getting divine energy through other means.
Kuroimaken 07-30-07, 10:35 AM	Besides, we already have a True Necromancer in our group.
RealSorceror 07-30-07, 12:12 PM	Geomancer or Dwoemerkeeper might be nice, although they don't solve the problem of having to take each class one at a time. You may want to just take a few levels in Ranger or Druid to get Trackless step and then take Arcane Heirophant. btw, Dual casting is so much easier for a Bard Druid. You can take Green Whisperer, Arcane Heirophant, Mystic Thuerge, and Folcyon Lyrist, all of which have full dual casting. In fact, a level of Bard & a lvl or two of Druid, plus a template or Incarnum feat to get Evasion will get you into Folchyan Lyrist, and you can just have the levels stack with Wiz/Arch instead of Bard. Lyrist has dual casting, good skill points, and a full BAB. After that you can go right into Arcane Heriophant, and you'll be set for 20 lvls. It'll hurt in the short term, but in the long run you'll have great Wiz/Arch casting, along with some good Bardic Knowledge, music, animal companion, and wild shape abilities (equal to a Bard/Druid of about 10 level) I do like your Wizard Archivist combo, though. Uber spell book of doom, ftw.
Kuroimaken 07-30-07, 01:26 PM	It's not originally mine, but I liked it because it means you only need one stat for spellcasting. I'm considering taking a prestige class for Wizard up until when I can progress as a MT again, but then it has to be a very short class...
posternutbag 07-30-07, 03:37 PM	Fochlucan Lyrist is great because it advances both Divine and Arcane, provides Full BAB and D6 with a great spell list. It would require some major multiclassinf over the short term, but if you plan to go high, its pretty coll. You could do Bard1/Druid1/Rogue2 over the nect three levels and with some good choices on your skill points slide right in and then use 20 levels of FL to advance your Wizard and Archivist casting, which, if I count right would give you 13th level casting in both at 20th level. Bardic Knowledge would be 11th level (I know you said it didn't have to have Class Abilities, but for a throw-in it fits thematically and is occassionally useful). That, of course, is the Core way into FL. If you can sweet talk your DM into allowing a Ring of Evasion and a Druidic girlfriend, you just need 1 or 2 levels of Bard for the skill points, bardic music and Bardic knowledge and you can be on your way to the grandeur that is the Fochlucan Lyrist.
Kuroimaken 07-31-07, 12:39 PM	Well, currently I have gained another level in Mystic Theurge, and am seriously pondering taking up levels in Fatespinner. I mean, up to +5 on any roll (or DC), +10 or -10 on a save (mine or someone else's) AND the ability to force rerolls? Sounds good to me.
The_Shaman 07-31-07, 03:06 PM	It's a possibility. Or you could go incantatrix, ditch 1 school that your archivist casting covers anyway, and learn some cute metamagic and spell control goodness, or a lot of other things. Follow your character concept - I think you can get some good ideas for every role.
Kuroimaken 07-31-07, 04:36 PM	Where IS Incantatrix, anyway?
Tuhljin 07-31-07, 06:54 PM	Player's Guide to Faerun has the 3.5 version. It was originally in Magic of Faerun. Another PrC to think about that only advances the Wizard side is Archmage. P.S. A good place to find out where official material (PrCs, monsters, spells, feats, etc.) is located is the Consolidated Lists Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists).
Magius_Rerecros 07-31-07, 08:18 PM	Libris Mortis, True Necromancer. Great class, works for what you're shooting for. Okay, that's a laugh. True Necromancer, a great class...? A whole lot of people consider this to be a very underpowered PrC, and if you want reasons, just check out the Revised Necromancer's Handbook. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599129) Or, if some people are too lazy to follow the hyperlink (as I have been known to be at times), I'll quote it right here. You are not going to play a True Necromancer! A lot of people love the True Necromancer, even though it’s a completely crippled class. Even a Mystic Theurge is better, and that’s saying quite a bit because that class is a dog with fleas. You’re 5 real caster levels behind the curve. If you just took Leadership, and then your cohort took Leadership, both of the cohorts would have better casting than you (being 2 levels behind and 4 levels behind respectively). You can provide the party better and more powerful Necromancy as a single classed Fighter that happens to have Leadership than you would if you were a “True” Necromancer. Top Ten Reasons True Necromancers Are Bad 1. At 14th level, you are five caster levels behind in both classes, so if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you. As a fighter. 2. You have to take the Death Domain as a Necromancer Cleric, which is a waste of a Domain Slot when you are trying to be good at Necromancy. 3. In the early levels, you postpone your access to Animate Dead by 4 levels. 4. At 8th level a True Necromancer can create, but not control Ghouls. A Cleric at that level can control but not create Ghouls. Guess which is better? At 11th level, the True Necromancer gets the ability to control Ghouls, and the Cleric gets the ability to create them, so there’s no point at which this is advantageous. 5. The only unique ability of the True Necromancer class is unimpressive. Desecrate is a great spell, but it’s also a second level spell. 6. True Necromancers eventually get a bonus to Rebuking – at 17th level they have a +1 bonus to their Rebuking level. But at 7th level they have a 3 level penalty to their Rebuking level. So at low levels when rebuking is good they can’t use it, and at high levels when Rebuking doesn’t matter they don’t care. 7. True Necromancers are always going to have underwhelming Save DCs. Between MAD and the fact that they are often forced to use spells that are 3 spell levels lower than what the single-classed casters can use, they’re going to be out enough Save DC that it shows. A lot. 8. As a True Necromancer you have all the disadvantages of both a Cleric (the gods can take away all your spellcasting at any time), and a Wizard (you have Arcane Spell Failure, preventing you from wearing good armor). Also, your BAB and HPs stink when compared to a Cleric. 9. Control pools from Animate Dead actually don’t accumulate between your two classes. It’ right in the spell, if you cast the spell it considers all undead you control from all castings of Animate Dead, not just your Arcane or just your Divine castings of the spell. Some people say differently, and some even quote CustServ, but when was the last time you won an argument with your DM using the line "some guy on a board said that CustServ told him....."? 10. There is almost no synergy between Cleric and Wizard Necromancy. Any synergy you desperately want to find could be replicated by just taking the Apprentice feat at first level and having some Use Magic Device. Get yourself a couple of Wizard Scrolls or something. It’s a better buy than setting 5 caster levels on fire. Smart cookies can even get the right spell effects off monsters for free, no less.
Shedeo 08-01-07, 08:37 AM	Okay, that's a laugh. True Necromancer, a great class...? For what he's looking for? It works. Well, did until The_Shaman pointed out the obviously cleric-requirements. Well, I suppose that Dread Necromancer would work, too (I think), but that's besides the point anyway.
Magius_Rerecros 08-01-07, 12:38 PM	Yeah.... I don't think that Dread Necromancer would satisfy here. He said that he wanted to advance both his arcane spellcasting and divine spellcasting at once, like the Mystic Theurge. The Dread Necromancer does not do that. First off, it's a base class, not a PrC. Second, they're arcane casters with a few divine spells added to their spell list. As such, it does not 'advance both arcane spellcasting and divine spellcasting at once', as he requested.