Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CyndaneTierney 04-19-07, 05:36 PM	I find the Arcane Archer to have some severe problems, which saddens me because of my love of magic and archery in my characters. The only thread that I saw on the COB about the Arcane Archer stated that the class was pretty good if you only took the first two levels. If you run Arcane Archer all the way to level ten, you can only get up to fourth level arcane spells at best, according to my calculations. This is my attempt to fix the class to encourage people to run the class. I would appreciate any constructive feedback on my revisions and whether or not they are too powerful. Enhance Arrow +X With the word 'nonmagical' in that line, the Arcane Archer loses any reason to use magical arrows because they just won't hit as often as nonmagical ones. Removing the word 'nonmagical' allows the arcane archer to use fun arrows such as Spell Storing arrows or Bane arrows. I mean, if you're already paying way too much for way too little, you might as well get some use out of them. I propose the removal of the word nonmagical in the first line, changing the first sentence to "At 1st level, every arrow an arcane archer knocks and lets fly becomes magical, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus." Imbue Arrow The problem with this ability is that there aren't really any good AoE spells that don't already have a range of Medium or longer, ignoring Anti-Magic Field and the like because, as I stated above, an Arcane Archer running the class can't get higher than fourth level spells. The ability to tag an arrow with a spell that has longer range than the bow is sad. The archer, unless picking up the Practiced Spellcaster feat (yet another feat to make the class useful, as if the archery feats weren't enough), is generally better off just doing a full attack action than Imbuing the arrow. If you could tag an arrow with, for example Fireball, and strike someone with it, that would be better. As it is, the spell has to obey the same targeting as the spell. I propose that the Imbue Arrow ability be changed to allow area spells, like Fireball, to target a person rather than a corner, and if you successfully make the attack roll to hit the target, the target is denied the Reflex save associated with the spell. I cannot think off-hand of any spells that the Wizard has to make attack rolls that allow a Reflex save. Heck, Enervation doesn't even allow a Fort save to avoid losing levels. Note how this is only for Reflex saves. No Wail of the Banshee arrows that don't allow a save. Seeker Arrow, Phase Arrow, Hail of Arrows We can dump all three of these into the same category because they all have the same problem: class abilities that work only once per day are bad. When you have once per day abilities, you have to kinda read the DM's mind, trying to figure out whether or not this ability would be better used later in the day. I propose a simple fix: make the abilities three times per day instead of once per day. You get a lot more freedom with abilities that can be used three times per day. With my revision of Enhance Arrows, the update to Hail of Arrows has an interesting synergy. Being able to fire Spell Stored arrows as part of a Hail of Arrows is just great, period. The synergy makes the eighth level ability really useful instead of ho-hum. Arrow of Death This is the last ability of the Arcane Archer, and it's pretty lousy for a tenth level ability. I'd be hard pressed to come up with a reason to take this level instead of another of, oh, Wizard. Class abilities that have fixed saves are bad. To fix this, I recommend we look at the Assassin's Death Attack. The save for the Death Attack is a Fort save with a DC of 10 + Int Mod + Assassin Class Level. I propose that we set the Fort DC save of Arrow of Death to 10 + Arcane Archer level + Casting Stat Mod (Int for Wizards, Cha for Sorcerers, etc...), which simplifies to a Fort DC of 20 + Casting Stat Mod since Arrow of Death is the tenth and final ability of the Arcane Archer. I fear that this may be too high of a DC for an instant death affect, but so many things are immune to Death Affects that it isn't probably that much of a problem. Brutal if the Arcane Archer decides to turn traitor on the party, though. Please note that I am NOT proposing to increase the number of Arrows of Death per day to three per day. Spellcasting But the crux of the matter of the problem is that the Arcane Archer requires spellcasting to get into it and does not progress said spellcasting at all. Heck, people tend to stay away from classes that progress casting on half of the levels of the class. I propose that the Arcane Archer gains spellcasting every even level as if she had advance a level of a casting class she already has levels in. It seems to me that it would be too powerful of a class if it gained casting every level. If they gained casting every even level, the player would probably even take the tenth level of the class because getting an ability along with the spellcasting is better than getting the spellcasting without the ability, as is the case if the character had gained a level of Wizard of Sorcerer. This logic, of course, doesn't extend to classes like Warmage because the Warmage gets class abilities, but the Warmage is already giving up some abilities by taking Arcane Archer, so it's not a big deal. So, there's my ideas on how to fix the Arcane Archer class. Once more, constructive criticism is appreciated. Thanks.
PhoenixInferno 04-19-07, 05:56 PM	Please take this to the classes boards, where this kind of thing belongs.
CyndaneTierney 04-19-07, 06:16 PM	I can't seem to find a way to move the thread or delete it to repost on the classes board.
WizO_Autumn 04-19-07, 07:57 PM	The PrC board is indeed the best place for this thread- I hope you get the attention it deserves! *Whisk!*
Gadren 04-19-07, 08:12 PM	I agree with your analysis whole-heartedly. I really don't know why Wizards didn't change this class at all in the 3.5 update. One of the reasons I made the Treeshield Sentinel (the PrC in my sig) was to allow characters to make something closer to what this class should have been (though my class is more ranger-flavored).
BrutishCelt 04-19-07, 11:25 PM	I like the fix, and will probably employ it in my campaign. Being a fan of the ability to rain death from long range, I was dissapointed to learn that the PrC required spellcasting but didn't enhance it at all. A bogus situation to say the least. Kudos on the fix!
runestar 04-20-07, 08:10 AM	The problem with imbue arrow is that it is effectively replicated by a single spell - greater magic weapon. Especially at higher lvs, it effectively lasts all day. Why bother entering into a prc just to get free +5 arrows when you could have a mage cast the very same spell(extended if need be, and buy a pearl of power 4 for him if he whines) on your bow? And as a side bonus, you can enter another prc which actually does something...:P It does become quite strong at epic lvs however(since greater magic weapon caps at +5), effectively allowing you to maintain a full bab progression. However, if you do not plan on playing until such a stage... As for the other arrow abilities, would it be game breaking to allow them to be used once/encounter or battle instead? I am not sure if it should grant spellcasting, so I can't comment properly on this issue as of yet.:(
Faithkeep 04-20-07, 12:04 PM	I agree with the caster level advancement change. I would have wanted to play an Arcane Archer because Imbue Arrow is really cool. But then I decided not to because his caster level does not advance, not even by half (...and because he has to be elf or half-elf... I don't like playing elf). Well at least one of the reasons gets fixed. :D Oh and runestar: The problem with imbue arrow is that it is effectively replicated by a single spell - greater magic weapon. I think you're talking about Enhance Arrow, not Imbue Arrow. :D
Nifft 04-20-07, 12:23 PM	IMHO, the original class has a lot of other problems, too. 1/ Too many hit points. Why does an archer need the hit die of a front-liner? 2/ Too few skill points. Very poor Ranger synergy -- not required, but nice to have. 3/ Damage reduction. In 3.0e, DR was based on enhancement value, but 3.0e is not like that. The Arcane Archer now fails to penetrate much of anything. Here's a re-work that basically agrees with your premise, but has seen a lot of play-testing: Nifft's Arcane Archer (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=67172) Cheers, -- N
StevenO 04-20-07, 02:39 PM	Lets see if this summary of the changes proposed this time are correct and my opinion: 1. Enhanced Arrow +X now works with magic ammo - fine although you still shouldn't stack enhancements. 2. Minor Changes to how Imbue Arrow works - no reflex save if target is hit isn't so big given normally low level spells. 3. Change once per day abilities to three per day - I think this is a little strong, my suggestion is create a "trick shot" pool and at each step add one use per day and one use option. 4. Change DC of Arrow of Slaying - making it upwardly mobile isn't a bad idea and used DC=10+AA levels + mod may be right. I suggest using the Dex modifier instead of the "casting stat." 5. Add spellcasting - NO. Everybody seems to want to add spellcasting without taking anything else away. The spellcasting entry requirement isn't big enough (there are classes that fill this without losing and BAB) to justify a mandate that the PrC increase your casting ability. There may be classes that do advance spellcasting and have a full BAB but most of them either are or can easily be converted into archer friendly builds; most of those classes also require more spellcasting ability than the AA does. Just tacking on spellcasting will make the AA much stronger although it can work now. Addressing some of the "problems" mentioned. 1. HP - The AA is a fighting class and a d8 is not front-line hp but is similiar to what other backup and ranged warriors get. 2. Skill points - ?? Probably should have gone up to 6/level like the ranger's did but 4 isn't bad and they do have a good selection. Note that few "updates" ever actually bother changing this; adding 2 skill points per level is certainly less than adding +1 spellcasting level ever other level. 3. DR - Its true the 3.5 made DR more material dependant but the AA's Enhanced Arrow make turning basic non-magical ammo into DR busters much easier. As long as the bow can handle alignment based DR it is a simple matter to find the right material for arrows to beat DR. In the case of DR/Cold Iron you can save a bundle on enchanting cost. Also note that AA 11 in epic gives your arrows +6 which means you're beating DR/epic without any added cost. 4. No spellcasting - I addressed this earlier. The short is that the magic requirement are so low you shouldn't expect the class to bolster your spellcasting. The class is about turning that small magical knowledge into potential archer attacks. I blame Imbue Arrow for this getting sited as a major problem of the class; without Imbue Arrow no one would ever complain.
CyndaneTierney 04-20-07, 06:16 PM	I suppose I can see your points about the spellcasting, especially since the Arcane Archer requires only first level spells and a whopping +6 BAB, but as I stated anyway, the range of any area spells you're likely to cast are longer than bow range anyway. And if you use Eldritch Knight for part of your progression before Arcane Archer, you get spellcasting and full BAB. As for the link to the other Arcane Archer build, I'm not a big fan. The Arcane Archer, for as lousy as it is, at least has unique abilities. For the most part of that other build, the class abilities can be obtained with equipment. I'm hesitant to use the Dex Mod for the Arrow of Death's save DC. Dexterity is arguably the most important stat for the Arcane Archer, since that contributes to attack rolls and armor class. I think leaving the save set to the casting stat is good enough since this class is, as you said, more of a fighter class than a casting class. I suppose the trick pool solution could work, especially since the Lurk already has something similar with its Lurk Augments. The Lurk gets Lurk level + Int Mod in augments. If one were to simply switch the word Lurk for Arcane Archer in the previous sentence, the Arcane Archer would get 10 + Int Mod if she ran the class. That would, in fact, give Hail of Arrows, Seeker Arrow, and Phase Arrow three uses each (to spread them evenly) plus one and the Int Mod. Perhaps giving the Arcane Archer one Trick Shot point per two levels (+ Int Mod) would work better.
Nifft 04-20-07, 08:45 PM	As for the link to the other Arcane Archer build, I'm not a big fan. The Arcane Archer, for as lousy as it is, at least has unique abilities. For the most part of that other build, the class abilities can be obtained with equipment. The biggest change (which you should consider stealing) is the ability to deliver touch spells with arrows, in addition to the ranged attack. Most arcane touch spells are low-level, and delivering ghoul touch or vampiric touch or even touch of idiocy at 110 ft. is fun. If you really don't want to give any casting progression, consider removing Imbue Arrow entirely. It's a stupid ability since it doesn't have anything to do with any actual class features -- replace it with, I dunno, Elemental Arrow 3/day (in addition to normal damage, your arrow explodes like a fireball, dealing 1d6 per Arcane Archer level; the damage is Fire, Cold or Electricity, as you choose). Cheers, -- N
LordArchaon 04-20-07, 08:48 PM	I suppose I can see your points about the spellcasting, especially since the Arcane Archer requires only first level spells and a whopping +6 BAB, but as I stated anyway, the range of any area spells you're likely to cast are longer than bow range anyway. And if you use Eldritch Knight for part of your progression before Arcane Archer, you get spellcasting and full BAB. As for the link to the other Arcane Archer build, I'm not a big fan. The Arcane Archer, for as lousy as it is, at least has unique abilities. For the most part of that other build, the class abilities can be obtained with equipment. I'm hesitant to use the Dex Mod for the Arrow of Death's save DC. Dexterity is arguably the most important stat for the Arcane Archer, since that contributes to attack rolls and armor class. I think leaving the save set to the casting stat is good enough since this class is, as you said, more of a fighter class than a casting class. I suppose the trick pool solution could work, especially since the Lurk already has something similar with its Lurk Augments. The Lurk gets Lurk level + Int Mod in augments. If one were to simply switch the word Lurk for Arcane Archer in the previous sentence, the Arcane Archer would get 10 + Int Mod if she ran the class. That would, in fact, give Hail of Arrows, Seeker Arrow, and Phase Arrow three uses each (to spread them evenly) plus one and the Int Mod. Perhaps giving the Arcane Archer one Trick Shot point per two levels (+ Int Mod) would work better. Really good thread! I'm really trying to find a fix for the Arcane Archer since one of my players wants to use it, and the fixes I thought about were to replace the +X enhancement to a special enhancement of equivalent bonus level: instead of +1 arrows you would have flaming or cold arrows and so on. Then I thought that at first level, a free variant of the Arcane Strike feat (that as written on Complete Warrior is only for melee attacks) was mandatory. However, at least a bit of spellcasting is really mandatory too and the "tricks pool" idea is really really interesting. Another thing to consider, maybe for tenth level, is having more than one (but maybe no more than two) imbued arrows "stored" and usable at once. Just a creative way to have your spells quickened: you will be able to rain more than one (hopefully no more than 2) fireballs on your enemies in one full-round action.
Broken vacuum 04-21-07, 02:43 PM	To repeat what others have said, the AA is not a caster PRC. Everything about it has to be looked at from that perspective. Imbue Arrow can actually be quite useful if you consider what it is good at instead of just trying to smack on a fireball or something similar. The obvious first level wizard spell to use it with is Obscuring Mist, though you could potentially get some use out of Grease as well. The ability also represents a pretty big increase in range for most spells. A composite longbow has a range increment of 110 feet, so the theoretical maximum is 1100 feet. As for improving the PrC, I think some minor adjustments and perhaps a few fitting bonus feats might be in order. The enhance arrow ability is still a good feature but not nearly as good as it was in 3.0, so the class could do with something extra. I have no problem with your change of enhance arrow and I see nothing wrong with the change to imbue arrow either, though I do not regard it as needed. Is it stated somewhere that Arrow of Death is a death effect? However that may be, I find arguments to the effect that really high bonuses do not matter as a bunch of monsters are immune to the base effect less than convincing; it is generally the critters it works on you should balance it with. That said, scaling DC is not a bad idea but I would probably tie it to one determined caster stat (intelligence would be my choice considering an elf's favoured class). 10 + AA levels + intelligence modifier seems about right. When it comes to Seeker Arrow, Phase Arrow and Hail of Arrows I really do not have a problem with them being usable only once a day and I think that 3 times a day for these right off the bat might be a tad bit strong - though not extraordinarily so. You could make it so that they are useable once a day when you first get them and every time you get another of these abilities, the ones you already have is usable one more time per day - i.e. 3/2/1 in the end. The thing is that the last three abilities are too powerful to be usable an unlimited number of times per day, but they do fine as flavourful and quite potent once-in-a-while abilities. What the AA needs is quite simply something to make it a competent archer all the time. My suggestion would be to add something in the order of 3 bonus archery feats. At first glance it would be something like: 3rd level: count as having Improved Critical with bows 5th level: Improved Precise Shot, without having to meet prerequisites 8th level: A special version of Far Shot that stacks with the feat so that range doubles if you have them both.
CaoSlayer 04-23-07, 02:20 PM	I see that the only one fix required is just remove the whole enhance arrow and grant +1 caster level in place of that. That fixes the whole class. Another insue is how death arrow is a fixed DC, it should be something like 10+ 1/2 arcane archer level + int/cha mod.
StevenO 04-23-07, 02:39 PM	It may be true enough that replacing each enhance arrow with +1 arcane caster level may "fix" the class but then it basically just becomes a modified SpellSword. The Spellsword already works fairly well for a bow using spellcaster and the only feature in AA you really want is Imbue Arrow. I know some have missunderstood my changing Seeking Arrow, Phase Arrow, and Hail of Arrow into "tricks." I was just thinking you'd get one "trick" each time you'd normally pick up one of these abilities (not every every level) but you could use a "trick" for any on of the abilities you'd aquired. Broken vacuum's suggestion to eventually allow their per day use to go to 3/2/1 isn't to bad either.
Qwicksilver 04-23-07, 06:18 PM	Ah, I've got an arcane archer variant also that I might put up. Hope you don't mind some compettition. ;) .
Faithkeep 04-24-07, 10:59 AM	For those who want to use the Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow to lob powerful spells at greater distances... just get two levels. :D