Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jetstream 10-18-07, 02:15 AM	Hey y'all. I've been working on a little something that might see use in a game sooner or later. You see, I really love the Arcane Archer. It's flavor is very interesting and I always wanted to play one... Of course, they're really lame in practice, aye? Well, I think I've come up with something spiffy that might fix the problem. It no longer resembles the Arcane Archer in too many ways, but it retains the general undertone with some abilities (mostly copied and slightly altered from later classes), that I think work better. So, I hope you enjoy. Without further adieu... Arcane Archer Redux (Redone) "Yes. That's it exactly. I just sling fancy arrows. Now be a dear and take cover." - Marisia, an arcane archer mercenary. http://wizards.com/dnd/images/moi_gallery/91214.jpg The arcane archer merges consummate martial skill with the unpredictable nature of an arcane spellcaster. Not having the full range of power granted by either archetype, their duality of purpose creates a truly devastating surprise for any who dare cross them. Traditionally there is no college of arcane archers in the world, the art primarily being passed from one master to her apprentices as they judge it necessary. Some nations, however, judge them invaluable and have convinced their resident practitioners to found small academies for training their militia. Becoming an Arcane Archer Rangers and Fighters are the most common Arcane Archers, with the Ranger having an edge due to their superior selection of skills and skill points. Rogues and Scouts are next on the list, both of which could gain great benefit from the selection of spells presented. Primary Casters such as Wizards and Sorcerers rarely become Arcane Archers, as their abilities do not synergize so much as overlap. Entry Requirements Race: Any. Race requirements are silly. Alignment: Any. Base Attack Bonus: +6. Skills: Concentration 4 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks. Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Any bow). Hit Die: d6. Class Skills: The archer's class skills (and key abilities for each skill) are: Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Cha), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Tumble (Dex) Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. Class Features: Base Atk Fort Ref Will Spells Per Day Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 1st 1 0 2 2 Armored Mage 2 0 - - 2nd 2 0 3 3 Imbue Arrow (Area) 3 1 - - 3rd 3 1 3 3 Bonus Feat 3 2 0 - 4th 4 1 4 4 - 4 3 1 - 5th 5 1 4 4 Greater Weap. Focus 4 3 2 0 6th 6 2 5 5 - 4 4 3 1 7th 7 2 5 5 Bonus Feat 4 4 3 2 8th 8 2 6 6 Imbue Arrow (Touch) 4 4 4 3 9th 9 3 6 6 - 4 4 4 3 10th 10 3 7 7 Arcane Infusion 4 4 4 4 Spells per Day/Spells Known: Beginning at 1st level, an arcane archer gains the ability to cast a number of arcane spells. To cast a spell, an arcane archer must have a Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level, so a arcane archer with a Intelligence of 10 or lower cannot cast these spells. Arcane archer bonus spells are based on Intelligence, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the arcane archer’s Intelligence bonus (if any). When the arcane archer gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level (for instance, 2nd-level spells for a 1st-level arcane archer), she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Intelligence score for that spell level. The arcane archer’s spell list appears below; when an arcane archer gains access to a new level of spells, she automatically knows all the spells for that level on the arcane archer's spell list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. Essentially, her spell list is the same as her spells known list. Armored Mage: Normally, armor of any type interferes with an arcane spellcaster's gestures which can cause her spells to fail (if those spells have somatic components). An arcane archer's specialized training, however, allows her to ignore spell failure as long as she sticks to light armor. This training does not extend to medium or heavier armor, nor to shields and does not apply to spells gained from other spellcasting classes. Imbue Arrow: At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast or the spell is wasted. At 8th level, the arcane archer can use a standard action to cast any that she knows with a range of touch upon an arrow and deliver the spell via a ranged attack. If the ranged attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect fo the spell is resolved. In the case of both these abilities the spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. Bonus Feat: Starting at 3rd level and continuing every four levels thereafter an arcane archer gains a bonus feat which must be selected from the following list: Dead Eye, Deadeye Shot, Eschew Materials, Far Shot, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Penetrating Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Sharp Shooting, Shot on the Run, Spell Penetration Greater Weapon Focus: At level 5 the arcane archer gains the Greater Weapon Focus feat for any single bow for which she has Weapon Focus, regardless of whether she meets the prerequisites. Arcane Infusion: Beginning at 10th level, an Arcane Archer can infuse arcane spell power into her bow, temporarily enabling it to deal extra energy damage. To use this ability an arcane archer must give up a potential spell slot for the day. The arcane archer chooses an energy type (fire, cold, electricity or acid) when this ability is activated. All ammunition fired by the bow deals an extra 2d6 of damage of the chosen energy type. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell sacrificed. Multiple uses of this ability don't stack, even if different energy types are chosen. Using this ability is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Arcane Archer Spell List: 1st Level - Accelerated Movement, Arrow Mind, Bow of Blood*, Burning Hands, Catsfeet, Color Spray, Critical Strike, Distract Assailant, Guided Shot, Hawkeye, Hunter's Mercy, Lesser Deflect, Lightfoot, Low-Light Vision, Magic Weapon, Mending, Obscuring Mist, Shocking Grasp, Sniper's Shot, Swift Expeditious Retreat, True Strike 2nd Level - Balancing Lorecall, Cat's Grace, Combust, Darkvision, Deflect, Dimension Hop, Fireburst, Fox's Cuning, Glitterdust, Iron Silence, Kelgore's Grave Mist, Near Horizon, Protection from Arrows, Scorch, Snowball Swarm, Sure Strike, Swift Haste, Swift Invisibility, Veil of Shadow 3rd Level - Arrow Storm, Caustic Smoke, Deeper Darkvision, Dispelling Touch, Energy Vulnerability, Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, Ice Storm, Lightning Bolt, Prismatic Mist, Rainbow Blast, Reverse Arrows, Ring of Blades, Scattering Trap, Spider Poison 4th Level - Blast of Flame, Bestow Curse, Caustic Mire, Cone of Cold, Cyclonic Blast, Fear, Fire Shield, Poison, Slashing Dispel, Sniper's Eye, Solid Fog, Vampiric Touch, Vitriolic Sphere, Vortex of Teeth, Wall of Fire, Wind Wall *Bow of Blood functions exactly like Blade of Blood as presented in PHB2, except that it functions on ranged weapons. PREREQUISITES Race: Any. Race requirements are silly. Alignment: Any. Base Attack Bonus: +5. Skills: Concentration 8 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks. Feats: Combat Casting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Any bow). Spells: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells. Hit Die: d8. Class Skills: The archer's class skills (and key abilities for each skill) are: Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Cha), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Tumble (Dex) Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. Class Features: Base Atk Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save Special Arcane Spells 1st 1 0 2 2 Armored Mage - 2nd 2 0 3 3 Imbue Arrow (Area) +1 level of existing class 3rd 3 1 3 3 Bonus Feat +1 level of existing class 4th 4 1 4 4 - +1 level of existing class 5th 5 1 4 4 Greater Weap. Focus - 6th 6 2 5 5 Bonus Feat +1 level of existing class 7th 7 2 5 5 Imbue Arrow (Touch) +1 level of existing class 8th 8 2 6 6 - +1 level of existing class 9th 9 3 6 6 Bonus Feat - 10th 10 3 7 7 Arcane Infusion +1 level of existing class Spells per Day/Spells Known: At each level an arcane archer gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which she belonged before adding the prestige class level. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (such as the bonus feat sometimes gained by a wizard). If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming an arcane archer, she must decide which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known. Armored Mage: Normally, armor of any type interferes with an arcane spellcaster's gestures which can cause her spells to fail (if those spells have somatic components). An arcane archer's specialized training, however, allows her to ignore spell failure as long as she sticks to light armor. This training does not extend to medium or heavier armor, nor to shields. This ability applies to only one spellcasting class which must be selected upon taking first level in the prestige class and cannot be changed. Imbue Arrow: At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast or the spell is wasted. At 7th level, the arcane archer can use a standard action to cast any that she knows with a range of touch upon an arrow and deliver the spell via a ranged attack. If the ranged attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect fo the spell is resolved. In the case of both these abilities the spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. Bonus Feat: Starting at 3rd level and every continuing every three levels thereafter an arcane archer gains a bonus feat which must be selected from the following list: Dead Eye, Deadeye Shot, Far Shot, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Mounted Archery, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Mounted Archery, Mounted Combat, Penetrating Shot, Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Sharp Shooting, Shot on the Run, Spell Penetration Greater Weapon Focus: At leve 5 the arcane archer gains the Greater Weapon Focus feat for any bow for which she has Weapon Focus, regardless of whether she meets the prerequisites. Arcane Infusion: Beginning at 10th level, an Arcane Archer can infuse arcane spell power into her bow, temporarily enabling it to deal extra energy damage. To use this ability a mage must lose a prepared arcane spell from memory (or give up a potential spell slot for the day if he is a spontaneous caster). The arcane archer chooses an energy type (fire, cold, electricity or acid) when this ability is activated. All ammunition fired by the bow deals an extra 2d6 of damage of the chosen energy type. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to the half the level of the spell sacrificed (round up). Multiple uses of this ability don't stack, even if different energy types are chosen. Using this ability is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Jetstream 10-18-07, 02:16 AM	Sample Encounter ... EL 12: Marisia CR 12 Female human scout 8/arcane archer 4 LN Medium humanoid Init +4; Senses Listen +15, Spot +15 Languages Common, Elven, Draconic ________________________________________ ____________________ AC 19, touch 13, flat-footed 19; Uncanny dodge (+3 Dex, +6 armor) HP 68 (12 HD) Resist Evasion Fort +8, Ref +12, Will +7; trap sense +1 ________________________________________ ____________________ Speed 40 ft (8 squares) Melee +1 shortsword +12/+7 (1d8+1/19-20) Ranged +2 composite shortbow +15/+10 (1d6+3/x3) Base Atk +10; Grp +11 Atk Options Plunging Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, skirmish Special Actions imbue arrow (area) Combat Gear 2 potions of haste, potion of cure moderate wounds Arcane Archer Spells 1st (5/day), 2nd (4/day), 3rd (1/day) ________________________________________ ____________________ Abilities Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8 SQ armored mage, battle fortitude +1, camouflage, flawless stride, improved spell-like abilities, trackless step, trap sense +1, trapfinding Feats Alertness, Brachiation, Concealed Ambush, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Reconnoiter, Spell Hand, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus (Longbow) Skills Balance 18, Climb 12, Concentration 6, Hide 16, Jump 12, Knowledge (arcana) 8, Knowledge (nature) 10, Listen 15, Move Silently 16, Spellcraft 8, Spot 15, Survival 8 Possessions combat gear plus +3 studded leather armor, +2 composite shortbow (+1 Str bonus) with 60 arrows, +1 shortsword, ring of feather falling, cloak of resistance +1 ________________________________________ ____________________ Battle Fortitude: Complete Adventurer 12 Flawless Stride: Complete Adventurer 13
Broken vacuum 10-18-07, 07:34 AM	Hey y'all. I've been working on a little something that might see use in a game sooner or later. You see, I really love the Arcane Archer. It's flavor is very interesting and I always wanted to play one... Of course, they're really lame in practice, aye? Well, I think I've come up with something spiffy that might fix the problem. It no longer resembles the Arcane Archer in too many ways, but it retains the general undertone with some abilities (mostly copied and slightly altered from later classes), that I think work better. I have never seen the Arcane Archer as a casting PrC and as such I am not that fond of fixes that introduces caster levels as it tends to be completely different from it in my eyes. With that in mind, I will try to comment on your PrC as is without associating it with the AA, so please excuse any comments about flavour that might seem out of place. Arcane Archer Redux PREREQUISITES Race: Any. Race requirements are silly. Alignment: Any. Base Attack Bonus: +5. Like it so far. Skills: Concentration 5 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 3 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks. I find the numbers somewhat strange. Given that this PrC is supposed to be enterable at 6th or 7th level, you should probably require 4, 8 or 9 ranks in the skills. Judging from you above choices, maybe Knowledge (arcana) 4, Concentration and Spellcraft 8. Feats: Combat Casting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Any bow). Why Combat Casting? To a PrC focusing on bows, it seems a bit out of place. Spells: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells. Seems fine. Hit Die: d8. Nothing wrong with this on its own, but more on that later. Class Skills: The archer's class skills (and key abilities for each skill) are: Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Cha), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), Tumble (Dex) Survival in combination with Search and the perception skills seems to indicate a somewhat outdoorsy focus. If you keep it this way I would consider adding at least Swim and Climb and probably Knowledge (Nature) and Knowledge (Geography) as well. And possibly adding ranks in Spot as a prerequisite for the PrC. This is a rather good skill list and I would consider removing Tumble or take away some of the skills discussed above. If you want the PrC to be good at both dexterous types of fighting, perception, sneaking around and get by in the wild you have to pay for it somewhere else. Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. Seems fine. Class Features: Base Atk Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save Special Arcane Spells 1st 1 0 2 2 Armored Mage - 2nd 2 0 3 3 Imbue Arrow (Area) +1 level of existing class 3rd 3 1 3 3 Bonus Feat +1 level of existing class 4th 4 1 4 4 - +1 level of existing class 5th 5 1 4 4 Greater Weap. Focus - 6th 6 2 5 5 Bonus Feat +1 level of existing class 7th 7 2 5 5 Imbue Arrow (Touch) +1 level of existing class 8th 8 2 6 6 - +1 level of existing class 9th 9 3 6 6 Bonus Feat - 10th 10 3 7 7 Arcane Infusion +1 level of existing class Spells per Day/Spells Known: At each level an arcane archer gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which she belonged before adding the prestige class level. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (such as the bonus feat sometimes gained by a wizard). If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming an arcane archer, she must decide which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known. 7/10 caster levels is fine, but it should imply that the martial aspects of the class are a bit toned down. Armored Mage: Normally, armor of any type interferes with an arcane spellcaster's gestures which can cause her spells to fail (if those spells have somatic components). An arcane archer's specialized training, however, allows her to ignore spell failure as long as she sticks to light armor. This training does not extend to medium or heavier armor, nor to shields. This ability applies to only one spellcasting class which must be selected upon taking first level in the prestige class and cannot be changed. Looks good. Imbue Arrow: At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast or the spell is wasted. In combination with the caster levels this is a powerful ability. I am not complaining, just pointing it out. At 7th level, the arcane archer can use a standard action to cast any that she knows with a range of touch upon an arrow and deliver the spell via a ranged attack. If the ranged attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect fo the spell is resolved. As above, this is a powerful ability in combination with the caster levels. In the case of both these abilities the spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. Good addition. Bonus Feat: Starting at 3rd level and every continuing every three levels thereafter an arcane archer gains a bonus feat which must be selected from the following list: Dead Eye, Deadeye Shot, Far Shot, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Mounted Archery, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Mounted Archery, Mounted Combat, Penetrating Shot, Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Sharp Shooting, Shot on the Run, Spell Penetration Greater Weapon Focus: At leve 5 the arcane archer gains the Greater Weapon Focus feat for any bow for which she has Weapon Focus, regardless of whether she meets the prerequisites. This is quite a lot of bonus feats. Arcane Infusion: Beginning at 10th level, an Arcane Archer can infuse arcane spell power into her bow, temporarily enabling it to deal extra energy damage. To use this ability a mage must lose a prepared arcane spell from memory (or give up a potential spell slot for the day if he is a spontaneous caster). The arcane archer chooses an energy type (fire, cold, electricity or acid) when this ability is activated. All ammunition fired by the bow deals an extra 2d6 of damage of the chosen energy type. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to the half the level of the spell sacrificed (round up). Multiple uses of this ability don't stack, even if different energy types are chosen. Using this ability is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. I like this. Overall this is a very powerful PrC. It receives: d8 Decent amount of skill points and a very good skill list Full BAB 2 good saves 7/10 casting 4 bonus feats Armoured Mage Imbue Arrow Arcane Infusion And the prerequisites are not at all hard to meet for a bow wielding character. The only thing that really is a cost is the somewhat out of place Combat Casting. The other feats are something such a character will want anyway and the skill rank requirements are all rather low. Compare it to a Eldritch Knight and you can see what I mean: d6 Few skill points and a small skill list Full BAB 1 good save 9/10 casting 1 bonus feat. The only thing the EK receives that your PrC does not are the 2 extra caster levels, but someone wanting to be an EK also has to invest more heavily in caster levels before he enters his class. It is not that caster levels are not powerful - we all know they are - but with 7/10 yours is not a PrC for pure casters and for warrior-types with a splash of magic it is a very, very good PrC. Even just going core, an archer only has to give up 1 BAB to get at least 4th level spells, almost as many bonus feats as a fighter, a number of pretty powerful extra abilities and a great skill list with skill points to spend on it. What you want to drop from the PrC kind of depends on what you want with it, but consider looking at reducing the number of bonus feats and caster levels.
StevenO 10-18-07, 06:53 PM	I'd have to agree with much of what Broken Vacuum says above. A 7/10 progression would make it more useful for a "caster" but the +5 BAB keeps them out early unless they sacrifice more casting power. For the warrior who dips into magic it is very powerful. Don't forget to look at what happens when this gets combined with the Abjurant Champion which is very strong and fits with this at no additional cost beyond a Abjuration spell. Assuming six levels to get the +5 BAB and casting at 1st level adding eight levels of this and maxing out AbC gets you this at 19th level: +18 BAB; 12th level casting with CL 18; likely saves of at least +8 FOR, +9 REF, +12 WIL; the ability to cast freely in light armor and a +9 AC 1st level spell; along with a number of other goodies. You still have level 20 to add another +1 BAB and casting level by using either Spellsword or Dragonslayer. I like it but think it is too strong.
Jetstream 10-18-07, 07:10 PM	I have never seen the Arcane Archer as a casting PrC and as such I am not that fond of fixes that introduces caster levels as it tends to be completely different from it in my eyes. With that in mind, I will try to comment on your PrC as is without associating it with the AA, so please excuse any comments about flavour that might seem out of place. We're gonna have to agree to disagree on that one, I suppose. My personal view of the arcane archer has always centered mostly on their spellcasting ability. Hence why their special abilities aid that primarily. Like it so far. I find the numbers somewhat strange. Given that this PrC is supposed to be enterable at 6th or 7th level, you should probably require 4, 8 or 9 ranks in the skills. Judging from you above choices, maybe Knowledge (arcana) 4, Concentration and Spellcraft 8. The skills were actually an artifact. The first draft of this class was much easier to get in to. It was brought to my attention that it was TOO easy. I'll fix that. Why Combat Casting? To a PrC focusing on bows, it seems a bit out of place. Seems fine. Nothing wrong with this on its own, but more on that later. Survival in combination with Search and the perception skills seems to indicate a somewhat outdoorsy focus. If you keep it this way I would consider adding at least Swim and Climb and probably Knowledge (Nature) and Knowledge (Geography) as well. And possibly adding ranks in Spot as a prerequisite for the PrC. This is a rather good skill list and I would consider removing Tumble or take away some of the skills discussed above. If you want the PrC to be good at both dexterous types of fighting, perception, sneaking around and get by in the wild you have to pay for it somewhere else. Yeah, I see the point. Combat Casting was mostly from my desire that they have some kind of spellcast'y requirement to get into the class. Something that related to combat. Additionally, I figured there was a possibility that you might have to cast defensively at some point while tossing a spell onto an arrow with an enemy threatening you... I don't know, it made sense in my head and I can't think of anything better. As for the skills, yeah I went a bit overboard on that. I think I'll take out survival, and I guess I could part with search too. I think Spot/Listen are necessary for this kind of class, flavor wise... As for Hide/Move Silently... I'm not sure. I kind of want to leave it there but I also agree that it could probably go away... Oh, hell, I just really love Hide and Move Silently (not to mention the Arcane Archer in the DMG has them). Seems fine. 7/10 caster levels is fine, but it should imply that the martial aspects of the class are a bit toned down. Looks good. In combination with the caster levels this is a powerful ability. I am not complaining, just pointing it out. As above, this is a powerful ability in combination with the caster levels. Good addition. This is quite a lot of bonus feats. I like this. Overall this is a very powerful PrC. It receives: d8 Decent amount of skill points and a very good skill list Full BAB 2 good saves 7/10 casting 4 bonus feats Armoured Mage Imbue Arrow Arcane Infusion And the prerequisites are not at all hard to meet for a bow wielding character. The only thing that really is a cost is the somewhat out of place Combat Casting. The other feats are something such a character will want anyway and the skill rank requirements are all rather low. Compare it to a Eldritch Knight and you can see what I mean: d6 Few skill points and a small skill list Full BAB 1 good save 9/10 casting 1 bonus feat. The only thing the EK receives that your PrC does not are the 2 extra caster levels, but someone wanting to be an EK also has to invest more heavily in caster levels before he enters his class. It is not that caster levels are not powerful - we all know they are - but with 7/10 yours is not a PrC for pure casters and for warrior-types with a splash of magic it is a very, very good PrC. Even just going core, an archer only has to give up 1 BAB to get at least 4th level spells, almost as many bonus feats as a fighter, a number of pretty powerful extra abilities and a great skill list with skill points to spend on it. What you want to drop from the PrC kind of depends on what you want with it, but consider looking at reducing the number of bonus feats and caster levels. Hmmm... Truthfully I really enjoy the bonus feats.. I could see knocking them down to two but... Well, I admit that the reason I love the fighter despite it's "sub-optimal" status is because feats are my favorite part of the game. My thoughts: I could either knock a caster level off, making it 6/10... or I could do 3/4ths BAB. Which do ya'll think would balance it better? I don't really want to bring it all the way down to 1/2 casting, however. I've never been a fan of classes like that... Beyond that, I like the D8, but a D6 might be more appropriate... I'm just not sure. Also, as another point. My buddies and I have been going over this and one thing that I've had mentioned to me more than once is that it might work out better with a self-contained spellcasting class. Perhaps 4 or 5 spell levels gained over 10 levels, like the Assassin and other classes. What do ya'll think of that? I could put in spells that focus on the imbue abilities, and also spells that focus on improving shots with the arrows themselves (like the numerous ranger spells that have been added in supplements over the years). If I did that I'd probably change up Arcane Infusion a bit, making it last for a number of rounds equal to the spell's level, and maybe knock it down to 1d6 rather than 2... Though I dunno, 2 might not be so bad. This is my first class and I'm really trying to make it good, y'know? :)
StevenO 10-18-07, 11:21 PM	We're gonna have to agree to disagree on that one, I suppose. My personal view of the arcane archer has always centered mostly on their spellcasting ability. Hence why their special abilities aid that primarily. :) I think anyone who looks at the official Arcane Archer should disagree with that. The primary focus of the AA is the enhanced arrow ability and without the 3.5 edit that forbids stacking arrow and bow enhancements it would be extremely good at putting out damage. Perhaps an easy "fix" to that minor problem would be making the +X for arrows into an unnamed bonus. The AA only has ONE special ability that is of interest to spellcasters, Imbue Arrow. This one abilty seems to throw so many into the mindset that the AA is a "caster's" class that they fail to see it is an ok class for a warrior type.
Jetstream 10-19-07, 12:19 AM	I think anyone who looks at the official Arcane Archer should disagree with that. The primary focus of the AA is the enhanced arrow ability and without the 3.5 edit that forbids stacking arrow and bow enhancements it would be extremely good at putting out damage. Perhaps an easy "fix" to that minor problem would be making the +X for arrows into an unnamed bonus. The AA only has ONE special ability that is of interest to spellcasters, Imbue Arrow. This one abilty seems to throw so many into the mindset that the AA is a "caster's" class that they fail to see it is an ok class for a warrior type. It's okay, sure, but there are many classes that're much better. For me, anyway, the imbue arrow was the main draw. Everything else the Order of the Bow Initiate can do better. (Ugh, death arrow? Will anyone ever fail that by the time you get it?)
Darth Sephiroth 10-19-07, 03:04 AM	With the Armored Mage ability, it could work to have an addition that allows casting in armor of one step above the type granted by what you already have. This would make it a decent prestige class for several of the more combat oriented casters. For instance if someone wanted to go with Battle Sorcerer or the like. However, there are several combat focused classes that could easily go into this class.
imakuni67 10-19-07, 04:12 PM	[QUOTE=Jetstream;14111419] Beyond that, I like the D8, but a D6 might be more appropriate... I'm just not sure.QUOTE] I agree, this should be modeled after the eldritch knight but with trading spellcasting for abilities.
Broken vacuum 10-20-07, 07:44 AM	Yeah, I see the point. Combat Casting was mostly from my desire that they have some kind of spellcast'y requirement to get into the class. Something that related to combat. Additionally, I figured there was a possibility that you might have to cast defensively at some point while tossing a spell onto an arrow with an enemy threatening you... I don't know, it made sense in my head and I can't think of anything better. Well, have you considered Magical Aptitude, Skill Focus (Spellcraft) or Skill Focus (Knowledge [Arcane])? They are all suitably magically inclined and might fit the theme better. As for the skills, yeah I went a bit overboard on that. I think I'll take out survival, and I guess I could part with search too. I think Spot/Listen are necessary for this kind of class, flavor wise... As for Hide/Move Silently... I'm not sure. I kind of want to leave it there but I also agree that it could probably go away... Oh, hell, I just really love Hide and Move Silently (not to mention the Arcane Archer in the DMG has them). Definitely keep Spot, Hide and Move Silently. When looking at the class I do not get the impression that Listen is as necessary, but I do not mind it either. Taking out Survival and Search does a lot to narrow the focus to a more manageable level. This way it becomes a PrC with emphasis on the dexterous. Hmmm... Truthfully I really enjoy the bonus feats.. I could see knocking them down to two but... Well, I admit that the reason I love the fighter despite it's "sub-optimal" status is because feats are my favorite part of the game. Generally speaking I think a mix of special abilities and bonus feats usually make for a good mix in a class. I have absolutely nothing against the overall structure and design of your PrC; the only problem is that you put a bit much into it. My thoughts: I could either knock a caster level off, making it 6/10... or I could do 3/4ths BAB. Which do ya'll think would balance it better? I don't really want to bring it all the way down to 1/2 casting, however. I've never been a fan of classes like that... Well, it mainly depends on what you want, but if you cut back to 3/4 BAB you could probably leave the class mainly as is. (Possibly even upping caster level gain to 8/10.) The overall reason the PrC is too powerful is that warrior types gain a lot and give up practically nothing. By cutting the BAB this problem is eliminated. Something to keep in mind when designing PrCs is that D&D generally rewards specialisation, so a cut in one prime area warrants a slightly more substantial addition to another. This way you cut back on BAB (a net loss of 4 BAB if you wish access to the sor/wiz spell list) and gain a substantial amount of caster levels and some special abilities. Seems about fair. Beyond that, I like the D8, but a D6 might be more appropriate... I'm just not sure. I could go either way here, really. The class does have a good skill selection, though, so I would say d6 if you go with 3/4 BAB, 8/10 casting and d8 if 7/10 casting. Remember that as a ranged class hit points are not as important as for a melee class and it will have spells to pick up the slack. Also, as another point. My buddies and I have been going over this and one thing that I've had mentioned to me more than once is that it might work out better with a self-contained spellcasting class. Perhaps 4 or 5 spell levels gained over 10 levels, like the Assassin and other classes. What do ya'll think of that? I could put in spells that focus on the imbue abilities, and also spells that focus on improving shots with the arrows themselves (like the numerous ranger spells that have been added in supplements over the years). If I did that I'd probably change up Arcane Infusion a bit, making it last for a number of rounds equal to the spell's level, and maybe knock it down to 1d6 rather than 2... Though I dunno, 2 might not be so bad. Self-contained spell casting can work fine, but it very much depends on the spell list, so without it, it is somewhat hard to give constructive critique. This is my first class and I'm really trying to make it good, y'know? :) Balancing PrCs are hard and the usual problem seems to be to make them really overpowered. You have a collection of well thought out abilities and it was just taken as a whole the class needed some rebalancing. In other words, you are doing a very well.
imakuni67 10-20-07, 12:18 PM	Race: Any. Race requirements are silly. I really don't like this bit, as elves have a predication to both magic and archery this makes it their class. It's the same with dwarven defender, a dwarf's martial inclination (racial attack bonus for example) and stability trait make them natural unmovable soldiers. You won't let a halfling take dwarven defender as much as you shouldn't let a dwarf take arcane archer. If a non-elf wants to mix archery with magic, they can be eldritch knights.
Jetstream 10-20-07, 12:58 PM	Well, have you considered Magical Aptitude, Skill Focus (Spellcraft) or Skill Focus (Knowledge [Arcane])? They are all suitably magically inclined and might fit the theme better. Definitely keep Spot, Hide and Move Silently. When looking at the class I do not get the impression that Listen is as necessary, but I do not mind it either. Taking out Survival and Search does a lot to narrow the focus to a more manageable level. This way it becomes a PrC with emphasis on the dexterous. Generally speaking I think a mix of special abilities and bonus feats usually make for a good mix in a class. I have absolutely nothing against the overall structure and design of your PrC; the only problem is that you put a bit much into it. Well, it mainly depends on what you want, but if you cut back to 3/4 BAB you could probably leave the class mainly as is. (Possibly even upping caster level gain to 8/10.) The overall reason the PrC is too powerful is that warrior types gain a lot and give up practically nothing. By cutting the BAB this problem is eliminated. Something to keep in mind when designing PrCs is that D&D generally rewards specialisation, so a cut in one prime area warrants a slightly more substantial addition to another. This way you cut back on BAB (a net loss of 4 BAB if you wish access to the sor/wiz spell list) and gain a substantial amount of caster levels and some special abilities. Seems about fair. I could go either way here, really. The class does have a good skill selection, though, so I would say d6 if you go with 3/4 BAB, 8/10 casting and d8 if 7/10 casting. Remember that as a ranged class hit points are not as important as for a melee class and it will have spells to pick up the slack. Self-contained spell casting can work fine, but it very much depends on the spell list, so without it, it is somewhat hard to give constructive critique. Balancing PrCs are hard and the usual problem seems to be to make them really overpowered. You have a collection of well thought out abilities and it was just taken as a whole the class needed some rebalancing. In other words, you are doing a very well. Alrighty, maybe I will kill one of the bonus feats. Maybe starting at 4th level and every four levels thereafter... Beyond that, I'mma sit down with my books and work out a spell list over the next few days. I've already slapped out a spell progression (that I edited into the original post as an example block), and I'll see about figuring out what to do with that. I'd do it right now but I"ve got work shortly ;) I don't suppose anyone's looked at that alternate spell progression? I know it's hard to comment without the spells (I'll post them asap), but do you think going from 0-5 (yeah, I know, most don't get cantrips but I figure why not?) is too much? I"ve seen some that go 1-5 and some that go 1-6, but MOST I know go 1-4... I just thought 1-5 seemed more fun, in the end ;)
Broken vacuum 10-21-07, 03:57 AM	I don't suppose anyone's looked at that alternate spell progression? I know it's hard to comment without the spells (I'll post them asap), but do you think going from 0-5 (yeah, I know, most don't get cantrips but I figure why not?) is too much? I"ve seen some that go 1-5 and some that go 1-6, but MOST I know go 1-4... I just thought 1-5 seemed more fun, in the end ;) Sorry, I should have been clearer. I did look at the spell progression and to be honest going to 4, 5 or 6 means very little as long as I do not know what are in those spell levels. My advice is to keep an eye on Arcane Infusion while determining maximum spell level and then an eye on overall balance when determining what to put into the levels.
Jetstream 10-22-07, 03:36 PM	Alrighty, I've got things done up SOMEWHAT the way I like 'em... I'm not entirely sure about the entry requirements... I changed them up to consider the fact that you won't have been a spellcaster before now. Beyond that, the spell list was pretty hard to put together. So I'm really looking for critique on that front. The original version is saved in the spoiler block below it, just in case. Well, I'll see what people have to say.
Broken vacuum 10-23-07, 07:13 AM	Arcane Archer Spell List: 1st Level - Accelerated Movement, Arrow Mind, Bow of Blood*, Burning Hands, Catsfeet, Color Spray, Critical Strike, Distract Assailant, Excacting Shot, Eyes of the Avoral, Guided Shot, Hawkeye, Hunter's Mercy, Lesser Deflect, Lightfoot, Low-Light Vision, Mending, Shocking Grasp, Sniper's Shot, Swift Expeditious Retreat Consider adding Obscuring Mist here. It is a good spell to use with Imbue Arrow and you do have Solid Fog later on. How about Magic Weapon (and possible GMW as a third level spell)? It does seem quite in line with the focus of the class. Detect Magic might be appropriate, too. How about True Strike? Now, I do not mean to just adding these to the spell list as that might make it a bit bloated. You could possibly add one or two, but then exchange would be better. Quite a lot of the spells you do have overlap at least partly (e.g. Eyes of the Avoral and Hawkeye). Also, I must admit that I do not know the Bow of Blood spell (I noticed the asterisk, but I do not see what it refers to). 2nd Level - Balancing Lorecall, Cat's Grace, Combust, Deflect, Dimension Hop, Fireburst, Fox's Cuning, Glitterdust, Iron Silence, Protection from Arrows, Scorch, Sure Strike, Swift Haste, Swift Invisibility, Veil of Shadow Consider putting Darkvision here instead of third level. 3rd Level - Arrow Storm, Darkvision, Dispelling Touch, Fireball, Haste, Lightning Bolt, Prismatic Mist, Rainbow Blast, Reverse Arrows, Spider Poison, Vertigo Field Vertigo Field seems a bit out of place. Consider replacing it with something like Ice Storm, Sleet Storm or Caustic Mire. Also, have you considered adding See Invisibility here? Seems like a good extension of a spell list already having Low-light Vision and Darkvision. 4th Level - Blast of Flame, Bestow Curse, Channeled Pyroburst, Fear, Forcewave, Poison, Sniper's Eye, Solid Fog, Vampiric Touch, Vortex of Teeth, Wall of Fire Forcewave seems a bit out of place. Why is it there? Something to consider here, I think, is adding Wind Wall. It seems an appropriate thing to add in the last spell level of an arcane spell casting class specialised in bows. EDIT: Also something like Arcane Eye or Prying Eyes might make a good and flavourful addition to the last spell level. /EDIT Overall the spell list is quite acceptable, but I do think it could use some changes when it comes to elemental damaging spells. You have a lot of fire spells and two lightning spells. Ordinarily this might not be a problem, but considering Arcane Infusion I think it a bit strange. Apart from Rainbow Blast (which is a nice spell) there is nothing of cold and acid in the spell list. Consider exchanging some fire spells for cold and acid spells. Finally, the class is a bit over-powered in relation to its entry requirements in my opinion. Consider adding something that a bow wielding character would not automatically take. It is not that it has to be absolutely useless, but there should be some cost to enter the class with all its benefits. Magical Aptitude is a suggestion, but I am open to most anything in that line. If the skill requirements is supposed to be the cost, I do not think it enough. This is an intelligence based casting class, so you can assume that anyone entering it will have at least 12 in intelligence. This means that at 6th level (as the class is enterable at 7th level) the character will have at least 27 skill points and requiring an investment of 16 of those is just not enough.
Jetstream 10-23-07, 06:39 PM	Consider adding Obscuring Mist here. It is a good spell to use with Imbue Arrow and you do have Solid Fog later on. How about Magic Weapon (and possible GMW as a third level spell)? It does seem quite in line with the focus of the class. Detect Magic might be appropriate, too. How about True Strike? Now, I do not mean to just adding these to the spell list as that might make it a bit bloated. You could possibly add one or two, but then exchange would be better. Quite a lot of the spells you do have overlap at least partly (e.g. Eyes of the Avoral and Hawkeye). Also, I must admit that I do not know the Bow of Blood spell (I noticed the asterisk, but I do not see what it refers to). Bow of Blood was supposed to be footnoted with the fact that it functions exactly as the Duskblade spell, Blade of Blood. My bad. I'll edit that. Consider putting Darkvision here instead of third level. Vertigo Field seems a bit out of place. Consider replacing it with something like Ice Storm, Sleet Storm or Caustic Mire. Also, have you considered adding See Invisibility here? Seems like a good extension of a spell list already having Low-light Vision and Darkvision. Honestly I was having a very hard time coming up with third level spells that worked for the class, more on this later. Also, what is Caustic Mire? I can't find that anywhere. The closest I've found is something from Dragon Magazine, Caustic Bile, which is basically acid fireball? Forcewave seems a bit out of place. Why is it there? Something to consider here, I think, is adding Wind Wall. It seems an appropriate thing to add in the last spell level of an arcane spell casting class specialised in bows. Wind Wall could be good, yeah. I had considered it but I don't remember why I decided not to go with it. As for Forcewave, I was having a REALLY hard time with the fourth level spells. There just isn't much that I could see fitting the class at that level, you know? Forcewave kind of did because it's an area spell, and I could see that added as an infusion... I don't know. I was sort of scraping the barrel at this point. EDIT: Also something like Arcane Eye or Prying Eyes might make a good and flavourful addition to the last spell level. /EDIT Overall the spell list is quite acceptable, but I do think it could use some changes when it comes to elemental damaging spells. You have a lot of fire spells and two lightning spells. Ordinarily this might not be a problem, but considering Arcane Infusion I think it a bit strange. Apart from Rainbow Blast (which is a nice spell) there is nothing of cold and acid in the spell list. Consider exchanging some fire spells for cold and acid spells. I really wanted to add some Cold and Acid to the repertoire but I couldn't find very much that worked at all. I was trying to stick mostly to touch and area spells as far as direct damage is concerned, because that's what the class is supposed to use mostly, with its special abilities... Can you recommend any spells that might work? I was going through the spell compendium, phb2, phb and complete mage pretty hard core and I couldn't find much that worked. I honestly would've liked to flesh out the 3rd and 4th level spells a bit more but... yeah. I'll start going through my books again, though. This spellcaster thing is harder than it looks :) Finally, the class is a bit over-powered in relation to its entry requirements in my opinion. Consider adding something that a bow wielding character would not automatically take. It is not that it has to be absolutely useless, but there should be some cost to enter the class with all its benefits. Magical Aptitude is a suggestion, but I am open to most anything in that line. If the skill requirements is supposed to be the cost, I do not think it enough. This is an intelligence based casting class, so you can assume that anyone entering it will have at least 12 in intelligence. This means that at 6th level (as the class is enterable at 7th level) the character will have at least 27 skill points and requiring an investment of 16 of those is just not enough. Magical Aptitude could work, yeah, but it's somewhat wasted because they don't get UMD. I could re-add the concentration requirement I suppose... I really would like to add a magical requirement of some kind, but I don't think requiring any levels of spellcasting is really appropriate. And I would like to give them something that won't be completely USELESS to them prior to joining the class. Nothing annoys me more than having to take a feat that I will get no use out of in order to join a PrC. I'll start looking. Dammit, Psionics are so much easier. You can just require a power point reserve. Spellcasting has no analogue that I can think of.
Jetstream 10-23-07, 07:14 PM	Thought: Perhaps I could require that they take one of those feats from Complete Arcane that gives you SLAs 1/day? Communicator, Insightful, Necropolis Born, Night Haunt, Soul of the North, or Spellhand? Or if there are any others out there maybe...? That could be the spellcasting requirement. Also, i changed up the spell list a little bit. It's looking better, I think. I was worried about knocking Cone of Cold back to a level 4, but then I realized that Blast of Flame is the same spell, but fire ;)
Broken vacuum 10-25-07, 12:42 PM	I have been a bit busy, but I will make some comments on the new spell list. Arcane Archer Spell List: 1st Level - AAccelerated Movement, Arrow Mind, Bow of Blood*, Burning Hands, Catsfeet, Color Spray, Critical Strike, Distract Assailant, Guided Shot, Hawkeye, Hunter's Mercy, Lesser Deflect, Lightfoot, Low-Light Vision, Magic Weapon, Mending, Obscuring Mist, Shocking Grasp, Sniper's Shot, Swift Expeditious Retreat, True Strike Looks pretty good. 2nd Level - Balancing Lorecall, Cat's Grace, Combust, Darkvision, Deflect, Dimension Hop, Fireburst, Fox's Cuning, Glitterdust, Iron Silence, Near Horizon, Protection from Arrows, Scorch, Sure Strike, Swift Haste, Swift Invisibility, Veil of Shadow There are several cold spells that could be added to this level. Kelgore's Grave Mist might fit, as there are already some fog spells in other levels. Consider replacing scorch with Snowball Swarm. This way you get some cold spells in the list. 3rd Level - Arrow Storm, Caustic Mire, Dispelling Touch, Energy Vulnerability, Fireball, Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, Lightning Bolt, Prismatic Mist, Rainbow Blast, Reverse Arrows, Spider Poison It might be better to move Caustic Mire to 4th level and add Caustic Smoke here instead (both spells are from Complete Mage in case you are still wondering). Since you wanted to flesh out the list, let me suggest some possible additions: Deeper Darkvision seems adequate considering Darkvision is on the list. Reverse Arrows could be seen as a continuation of Protect Arrows. Shatterfloor could probably work well in the list. Sleet Storm would add another cold option. Ice Storm would be another possibility. If you want more acid options, Acid Breath could do the trick. Consider adding something like Scattering Trap, it could be fun with Imbue Arrow. If you want something more defensive this level, you could add something like Ring of Blades. 4th Level - Blast of Flame, Bestow Curse, Cone of Cold, Fear, Forcewave, Poison, Slashing Dispel, Sniper's Eye, Solid Fog, Vampiric Touch, Vortex of Teeth, Wall of Fire, Wind Wall Explosive Rune Field might be an option here. I also think that both Vitriolic Sphere and Cyclonic Blast could work. Another possibility is Greater Electric Vengeance. Fire Shield might be a fitting defensive spell. Finally Leomund's Tiny Hut could make a good addition. It is a great spell for Archers. Hope that helped some. To be honest, it would be easier suggesting spells if you could elaborate a bit more closely on what you want the spells to achieve for the class. I get the area a touch damage thing, but I am not certain if you have some sort of theme on perception or not. If so, I still think one or two divinations might make good additions. Regarding the Magical Aptitude as a prerequisite, I think it important to remember that it provides a bonus to spellcraft checks as well. Of course Skill Focus (Spellcraft) could be an option, too. That said, the mentioned feats from Complete Arcane could work, too.
Jetstream 10-27-07, 01:03 PM	I have been a bit busy, but I will make some comments on the new spell list. Looks pretty good. There are several cold spells that could be added to this level. Kelgore's Grave Mist might fit, as there are already some fog spells in other levels. Consider replacing scorch with Snowball Swarm. This way you get some cold spells in the list. I like snowball swarm and grave mist, but I think I'll replace Fireburst rather than Scorch. Try to keep a decent ratio between line and burst spells, y'know? It might be better to move Caustic Mire to 4th level and add Caustic Smoke here instead (both spells are from Complete Mage in case you are still wondering). Since you wanted to flesh out the list, let me suggest some possible additions: Deeper Darkvision seems adequate considering Darkvision is on the list. Reverse Arrows could be seen as a continuation of Protect Arrows. Shatterfloor could probably work well in the list. Sleet Storm would add another cold option. Ice Storm would be another possibility. If you want more acid options, Acid Breath could do the trick. Consider adding something like Scattering Trap, it could be fun with Imbue Arrow. If you want something more defensive this level, you could add something like Ring of Blades. Yeah, moving the mire was a good call, and I don't know WHY I forgot about Deeper Darkvision :) I'll look into acid breath, I'm just having a hard time seeing that. Doesn't it specifically say you exhale it from your mouth? I know the RAW would allow one to imbue that, but dang it'd be weird ;) Scattering Trap... niiiice. Explosive Rune Field might be an option here. I also think that both Vitriolic Sphere and Cyclonic Blast could work. Another possibility is Greater Electric Vengeance. Fire Shield might be a fitting defensive spell. Finally Leomund's Tiny Hut could make a good addition. It is a great spell for Archers. Those sound cool too. I'll flip through 'em real quick and probably add some of them. I don't know about Leomund's Tiny Hut, though. While it is a very nice spell for ranged fighters, I just don't see these guys having the ability to make one. Making use of one is one thing, but creating them... it seems outside their purview, y'know? :) Hope that helped some. To be honest, it would be easier suggesting spells if you could elaborate a bit more closely on what you want the spells to achieve for the class. I get the area a touch damage thing, but I am not certain if you have some sort of theme on perception or not. If so, I still think one or two divinations might make good additions. Regarding the Magical Aptitude as a prerequisite, I think it important to remember that it provides a bonus to spellcraft checks as well. Of course Skill Focus (Spellcraft) could be an option, too. That said, the mentioned feats from Complete Arcane could work, too. You're right about the spell thing. I really should elaborate on what I was going for. That's my bad. The main point I was trying for with the spell list was a combination of touch and area spells (duh, as if you could miss that) for use with the special abilities, and abilities to help their archery. You'll note that most of the spells that I give them are things like arrow mind or arrow storm which help them hit, and then things like low-light vision and darkvision, which assist them with shooting folks in inclement conditions of one sort or another. Here and there is the odd spell to help them get into a useful position without getting caught (iron silence), and to make them better at what they do in general (cat's grace for dex, fox's cunning for int. Truthfully if there were self-only versions of those spells I'd have given them those instead). Most touch spells also seem to be Save-or-suck rather than direct damage, so I've been trying to find appropriate ones with that in mind. Hence bestow curse (not to mention that, near as I can tell, every other spellcaster gets bestow curse). As for divination spells, I'm not sure in most cases. While things like Arcane Eye and Prying Eyes are useful, I'm not sure if they really fit the class. Most of what the archer is supposed to do is immediate in nature, helping them make the shot here and now. They're less scouts than snipers, though they can serve the scout purpose in a pinch. I hope that made any sense, I fear I might have been rambling. At any rate, in terms of the prerequisites, I've been looking over feats and such and... Honestly I just can't really think of one that's all that appropriate in the end. These folks are, really, warriors that have learned to cast a semi-limited selection of spells. While I'd like to include something more magically oriented, I just can't really justify giving them a complete dump feat (and on further review, the SLA feats suck. Hard.). Looking at other classes that do things like mine such as the Assassin, Hunter of the Dead and Vigilante, none of them require that you take some kind of spell-related feat BEFORE you become a member of the class (though I admit that the Hunter of the Dead does require turning ability, but paladins can get that somehow, can't they?). I have, however, returned the concentration requirement. I'll look everything over some more too, and see if I can't get more appropriate requirements. At any rate, thank you for your assistance. If you have any other suggestions I'm perfectly open to hearing them. I'm glad someone took an interest in the class, and I sure hope I can get some more comments so I can make it as good as it can be. Heh, I'm not getting to PLAY one of these in our next game, unfortunately (even if I do get it up to spec), but my DM has promised to throw a few at us at some point ;)
Jetstream 10-29-07, 12:59 PM	:bump: C'mon, as much as I appreciate Broken Vacuum's comments, doesn't anyone else wanna say something? I've never gone this long in a forum without someone telling me how much my idea sucks ;)
Jetstream 11-01-07, 07:32 PM	:bump: Questions? Comments? ... Insults? Is this thing on? ;)
bkdubs123 11-01-07, 09:32 PM	I like the fix a lot. Adding a self-contained spellcasting progression is just what the Arcane Archer needed. I suggest you do require one of those SLA feats from Complete Arcane. Just say, Requirements: Bla, Bla, and any one of the following: Night Haunt, Communicator, Soul of the North, etc...
Jetstream 11-03-07, 05:16 PM	I like the fix a lot. Adding a self-contained spellcasting progression is just what the Arcane Archer needed. I suggest you do require one of those SLA feats from Complete Arcane. Just say, Requirements: Bla, Bla, and any one of the following: Night Haunt, Communicator, Soul of the North, etc... Honestly, while it does seem to make some sense to have that as a requisite, I just can't really justify it to myself. Like I said, other classes that do things similar to mine don't require such a thing, and those feats really aren't very useful at all. Like I said, I just can't justify to myself the concept of making someone take an honest-to-god dump feat. I'd sooner have them take combat casting, like I had at one point, even though that's almost completely pointless.
bkdubs123 11-03-07, 05:43 PM	I don't think those SLA feats are worthless (at least not all of them. I like Communicator and Spell Hand). Honestly though I almost want you to keep the "Ability to cast 1st level arcane spells" requirement. Its not really crippling to take a level of Duskblade or something is it?
Jetstream 11-04-07, 04:23 AM	I don't think those SLA feats are worthless (at least not all of them. I like Communicator and Spell Hand). Honestly though I almost want you to keep the "Ability to cast 1st level arcane spells" requirement. Its not really crippling to take a level of Duskblade or something is it? I'd agree with you if the feats weren't just one use a day. As for the requirement of a caster level, that doesn't really make sense, in all honesty. There are few (or no, I couldn't find any) classes that advance their own spellcasting in this fashion that require spellcasting of any kind. Sometimes they require a particular class ability, but never a caster level. And sure, taking a level of duskblade woudln't be crippling but it would be redundant at best. Their abilities don't synergize so much as they overlap.
WebJiCi 11-04-07, 06:57 AM	No offense but I prefer your original version. From the beginning, the arcane archer focus on the ability to channel your own spells into arrows, just a duskblade does with his sword. Come on, bards, duskblades, warmages and even monsters with spellcasting abilities would be interesting candidates.
Jetstream 11-04-07, 12:32 PM	No offense but I prefer your original version. From the beginning, the arcane archer focus on the ability to channel your own spells into arrows, just a duskblade does with his sword. Come on, bards, duskblades, warmages and even monsters with spellcasting abilities would be interesting candidates. Honestly, I liked the original version a little better myself, but on further review I decided that it was a bit overpowered. A self-contained spellcasting class allowed it to have some interesting spells that it likely wouldn't have otherwise gotten, and served to limit its ability to pwn all over everyone with the full abilities of a fighter and wizard, y'know?
Jetstream 11-08-07, 12:44 AM	Okay, I finally figured out something that will work for me, pre-requisite wise. I didn't want to require a complete and utter dump feat, however... So I added an ability that improves those SLAs granted by the Complete Arcane feats. Hopefully it'll work alright. I also added a little extra fluff, and a sample character. Yeah, I might have too much free time.