Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eldariel 03-17-08, 03:12 PM	Well, Arcane Archer pretty much stinks. Everyone knows that. Now that Smiting Spell exists, even the one ability that was worth using, Imbue Arrow, has lost much of its thrall. I already rebuilt Arcane Archer once, but I tried to build it off the same basis it was built on so it was pretty difficult to make it work. Now along with mr. rockdeworld over at Giants in the Playground forums, I rebuilt it again, this time with a much better point of comparison: the Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327). I present unto thee: Arcane Archer Redux Hit Die: d8 Requirements To qualify to become an arcane archer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Race: Elf. Base Attack Bonus: +4. Skills: Craft (Bowmaking) 8 ranks. Feats: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (any straight bow the character is proficient with). Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with at least one straight bow. (straight bows are Shortbow, Longbow, Greatbow and similar weapons) Spells: Ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells. Class Skills The arcane archer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex). Skill Points at Each Level 6 + Int modifier. Class Features All of the following are Class Features of the arcane archer prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An arcane archer gains no proficiency with any weapons or armor. Spells per Day: At each level indicated on the arcane archer table, the arcane archer gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of arcane archer to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an arcane archer, she must decide to which class she adds each level of arcane archer for the purpose of determining spells per day. Enhance Arrow (Su) At 1st level, every nonmagical arrow an arcane archer nocks and lets fly becomes magical, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus, or a special ability of the same price. Unlike magic weapons created by normal means, the archer need not spend experience points or gold pieces to accomplish this task. However, an archer’s magic arrows only function for her. For every two levels the character advances past 1st level in the prestige class, the magic arrows she creates gain +1 greater potency (+1 at 1st level, +2 at 3rd level, +3 at 5th level, +4 at 7th level, and +5 at 9th level). The bonuses applied through Enhance Arrow can be spent on any number of special abilities, with the exception of Bane, so long as the total bonus from special abilities and enhancements combined does not exceed the total bonus the arcane archer would receive anyway (i.e. a 4th level arcane archer can fire a +2 arrow, a +1 flaming arrow, or a holy arrow, but not a +1 holy arrow or any other arrangement of bonuses and abilities that would exceed a +2 modifier). These special abilities, if any, must be chosen before making an attack roll, but after bow's enhancements, if any, have been bestown upon the arrow. Essentially, this means that if the arcane archer possesses a bow with an enhancement, she need not add +1 first to her arrows as per normal for making Magic Items. If the arcane archer is making an Attack Action involving launching multiple arrows, she must use the same enhancements for all the arrows fired. She doesn't have the time to enhance each arrow separately. An arcane archer can add Bane-property only against creature types that are her favored enemies. If an arcane archer has no favored enemies, she cannot use Enhance Arrow to add Bane-propery upon her arrows. The favored enemy must correspond to the group covered by the Bane Arrow. This makes Bane: Humanoid (Orc) a legal option while Bane: Evil cannot be made even if the character possesses Favored Enemy: Evil. If an Arcane Archer has Favored Enemy: Arcanists, she can make her arrows Magebane. Arrow of Death (Sp) At 1st level, an arcane archer can create an arrow of death that forces the target, if damaged by the arrow’s attack, to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the arcane archer's class level + the arcane archer's primary spellcasting ability modifier) or be slain immediately. An arcane archer must make the appropriate Craft (Bowmaking) checks herself to fletch the arrow. Treat arrow of death as an item with a base sp cost of 1000 and a craft DC of 25. The arcane archer need not perform the other parts involved in item creation. The arrow of death lasts no longer than one year, and the archer can only have one such arrow in existence at a time. Fletching (Su) At 1st level, an arcane archer gains the ability to create magic arrows (and only arrows) with an enchantment bonus equal to half her class level rounded up, and an effective enhancement bonus equal to her class level, as if she possessed the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat and met all other requirements for the arrow she wishes to make. Imbue Arrow (Sp) At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted. Improved Imbue Arrow (Sp) At 4th level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place a "touch attack" spell upon an arrow and deliver the spell through a ranged attack. When the arrow is fired and successfully hits a target, the spell is activated on the target as though the arcane archer herself had cast it from the correct range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted. Master Fletcher (Ex) Any masterwork arrows crafted by an arcane archer of 5th level or higher are so finely made that they grant a +1 competence bonus to damage dealt with them. At level 10, this bonus increases to +2. Hail of Arrows (Ex) As a Standard Action, an arcane archer of 6th level or higher can fire an arrow at each and every target within range, to a maximum of one target for every arcane archer level she has earned. Each attack uses the archer’s primary attack bonus, and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow. Phase Arrow (Su) At 8th level, an arcane archer can launch an arrow at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target in a straight path, passing through any nonmagical barrier or wall in its way. (Any magical barrier stops the arrow.) This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally. Using this ability is a standard action (and shooting the arrow is part of the action). Greater Imbue Arrow (Sp) At 10th level, an arcane archer improves her ability to imbue spells upon her arrows. When an arcane archer is using her Imbue Arrow-abilities, she can expend one use of this ability to imbue another area spell, or a spell involving "Touch Attack". Effectively, she can use a Standard Action to fire an arrow containing two spell triggers. An arcane archer has uses of this ability equal to half her arcane archer class levels rounded up per day. Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | Spells per Day 1 | +1 | +0 | +2 | +2 | Enhance Arrow +1, Arrow of Death, Fletching | -- 2 | +2 | +0 | +3 | +3 | Imbue Arrow | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | +3 | Enhance Arrow +2 | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Improved Imbue Arrow | -- 5 | +5 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Enhance Arrow +3, Master Fletcher +1 | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 6 | +6 | +2 | +5 | +5 | Hail of Arrows | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 7 | +7 | +2 | +5 | +5 | Enhance Arrow +4 | -- 8 | +8 | +2 | +6 | +6 | Phase Arrow | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 9 | +9 | +3 | +6 | +6 | Enhance Arrow +5 | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 10 | +10 | +3 | +7 | +7 | Greater Imbue Arrow, Master Fletcher +2 | -- These changes should represent her flavour as a bow expert better, giving her the option to make arrows too (with higher enhancement bonus) with an iron price, and making the Craft-skill actually come in handy (with Arrow of Death; maybe AAs will bother making few Masterwork Arrows while at it). Also, since the character now has so many progressive abilities along with a powerful (free action Quicken 5/day) capstone, people are more inclined to take it even at the cost of level 9 spells. Fletching should also help with the flavour and since she's going to be damn short on feats, on everything else too. Also, the Arcane Archer is now very skilled and has fine synergy with Wizard, Bard, Ranger, Sorcerer, Fighter and a couple of prestiges, so I think this is pretty bueno. Evasion and Armored Mage are possible additions, but that's as far as I'd be willing to go with additional abilities. I think this build feels pretty right. I changed the name of Channel Arrow to Improved Imbue Arrow to make the abilities easier to write up and to make the final ability have a sensible name. Not to mention, Imbuing Touch-spells makes at least as much sense as imbuing Area-spells; channeling would really mean that the arrow touches you and the opponent and you cast a spell through it while here you slam the spell on the arrow and it flies, flies and flies. I like to synergize classes and some changes like using Favored Enemy in a class skill really help to synergize with the quinessential Elf Archer (Ranger), while maintaining the Arcane requirements, so it's not just an Elf Archer, but since Arcane side is even stronger in the Elven culture, an Arcane Elf Archer. The skill list should give something to everyone (less to Charisma-focused builds, of course, but there're two Cha-skills on the list and I didn't find any additional feasible options), and much of the flavour of the build is indeed that she's not only an Arcane Archer, she's also exceptional as just an Archer and adds her Arcane prowess to that. Now I feel the Capstone is also worth taking with an essential Free Quicken Spell 5/day, the ability to fletch level 10 arrows, the ability to hit 10 foes with a Hail of Arrows and +2 Competence to Arrows (provided that she has time to fletch them herself). So, what do you think?
Baninor 03-17-08, 08:09 PM	Interesting. But Enhance Arrow and Fletching kinda do the same thing (one of them for free). Plus I'm not sure they would even stack. My suggestion would be to leave Enhance Arrow as the DMG had it. Being able to on the fly shoot out various arrows that can defeat damage reductions (Holy, Lawful, Axiomatic) is a little powerful. So leave Fletch as it is, and just leave Enhance Arrow to give Enhancement bonuses thats it. Also for a caster/fighter thats an awful lot of skill points. Almost every single one has 2+int and theres like 1 with 4+int.
StevenO 03-18-08, 01:16 AM	Oh goodie, another Arcane Archer Redux. As printed in the DMG the AA may not be great but it does work. At least this attempt to "fix" the AA goes a little beyond the normal methods (which is usually just slapping on spellcasting) but the may be too easy now. The prereqs are a joke. Two feats one of which is actually useful to a spellcaster already if they use ray type spells. The skill requirements are a complete joke when you go ahead and give the class SIX skill points each level. Maybe you intend for the skills to match up better with a ranger but there is nothing "ranger" about this incarnation as a straight caster 8 has no problems getting in. Maybe you like it and of course most opinions will be favorable (people who dislike these classes tend to avoid the threads in the first place) but I don't like it.
Eldariel 03-18-08, 01:31 PM	I'll go the points base-by-base: Interesting. But Enhance Arrow and Fletching kinda do the same thing (one of them for free). Plus I'm not sure they would even stack. They don't stack. Enhance Arrow can specifically only be applied to originally nonmagical arrows. However, the key difference is that you can fletch arrows up to +10 instead of +5 of Enhance Arrow, you can fletch arrows for others to use and being able to fletch your own arrows is a large flavour improvement over the normal character. Basically, the idea of Fletching is to give you more options and to match the flavour, rather than to make the character way more powerful. My suggestion would be to leave Enhance Arrow as the DMG had it. Being able to on the fly shoot out various arrows that can defeat damage reductions (Holy, Lawful, Axiomatic) is a little powerful. So leave Fletch as it is, and just leave Enhance Arrow to give Enhancement bonuses thats it. As it is in DMG, it's pretty useless. Simple Greater Magic Weapon is almost as good and it's a 3rd level spell you can prepare a few of. Having your principal class feature obsoleted by a 3rd level spell is a bit sad, so I bumped it in power. Now I think it does what it's intended to do; it's fairly powerful, but with Bane unavailable (except to Ranger-types, which generally give up something else, like feats or spell levels), there's nothing broken you can stack up on your arrows. Remember that while you can indeed overcome damage reductions (provided that you succeed the appropriate Knowledge-checks of course) based on alignment, you can't overcome metal-based reductions without the appropriate arrows (or Metalline) at hands. Ultimately, none of that should matter too much as basically all high level archers have Force-bows anyways, which allows them to ignore DR. Also for a caster/fighter thats an awful lot of skill points. Almost every single one has 2+int and theres like 1 with 4+int. Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) has 4 and it has no Ranger-flavour to it. Losing 4 caster levels is an iron price for a Gish and you better get things to make up for it. Since you're a caster, you'll probably end up forced to use 2 of the level points on Spellcraft and Concentration anyways, and to cover the Ranger-y part, you'll need all the points you can get, especially since you'll probably have mediocre Wisdom. The flavour of an Elven Archer involves hiding in natural environment, spotting the opponent far away, firing a distant hail of arrows and escaping quickly for a new ambush; that means you'll really want high Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen and such in addition to the caster abilities, leaving you running on Int-points only. Add to that the fact that only Elves qualify and you won't even have extra skillpoints from race (save for potential racial Int Bonus). Also, Listen, Spot and Search are Elven racial skills, and this is the quinessential 'Elf'-class, so I figured it should have access at least to those 3 skills. But yea, adding the Ranger-duties and 2 skill points felt about right. Oh goodie, another Arcane Archer Redux. As printed in the DMG the AA may not be great but it does work. At least this attempt to "fix" the AA goes a little beyond the normal methods (which is usually just slapping on spellcasting) but the may be too easy now. The DMG AA is practically never worth taking beyond two levels though and even those two levels effectively just give you a variant of Smiting Spell; two non-caster levels for a better version of one feat sounds bad for a Gish. Let's not get into the whole 'Enhance Arrow is about as good as Greater Magic Weapon'-part either. I feel the class desperately needs an update, especially as it oozes with flavour and has all the potential to be awesome. I know it's been done a lot, heck, I've made one myself before, but I felt this was actually pretty succesful hence why I posted it. The prereqs are a joke. Two feats one of which is actually useful to a spellcaster already if they use ray type spells. The skill requirements are a complete joke when you go ahead and give the class SIX skill points each level. Maybe you intend for the skills to match up better with a ranger but there is nothing "ranger" about this incarnation as a straight caster 8 has no problems getting in. Well, generally I consider one feat a rather high price to pay for a non-full caster. I may consider adding Combat Casting or some other worthless castery feat as a prereq though; it's true that Swiftblade requires two worthless feats to enter. I'm not sure the class abilities here are quite as strong as Swiftblade's though. As far as the skills go, they're there mostly as a nominal price, and mostly for the flavour of an archer capable of crafting her own weapon and arrows; without that requirement, I'd feel guilty giving Fletching-type abilities to a character which may not have any ranks whatsoever in Craft. It seems like people are scared about the skillpoints, but I don't really think giving Wizards lots of skill points would make the class relevantly better; it'd just make them able to pick up few more Knowledges. Due to the Elvenship (no Able Learner) and the Rangerish skill list, I really aimed for a Ranger/Wizard hybrid, while not stopping Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Fighter/Wizard or Paladin/Sorcerer from entering and thus changing their flavour a bit. Maybe you like it and of course most opinions will be favorable (people who dislike these classes tend to avoid the threads in the first place) but I don't like it. Thanks for being honest and rising few good points. I didn't post it to get praised, I posted it to get feedback. It does push the envelope a bit, but it shouldn't be more powerful than Abjurant Champion or Swiftblade, the present premiere gishes. Also, good point about people responding, which makes me all the more happy that you bothered to write up a reply, since critical feedback and communal thinking allows for rounding out the edges; one brain is always worse than multiples. I'll have to consider the prereq changes; just one feat is pretty little in the end, but then again, I figured that since we're talking about a caster archer, he'll be featstarved anyways as archery is horribly feat intensive and casters want metamagic-, and general feats too, and the character kinda needs both to be able to effectively use its abilities without getting any extra feats throughout its progression. That was the original logic I used to dictate the 'one bad feat'-prereqs over the two of Swiftblade, matching the one of Abjurant Champion and Eldritch Knight.
StevenO 03-18-08, 07:46 PM	Adding Combat Casting to the prereqs doesn't change much as that just pushes the character into some easy levels of Abjurant Champion as well. With the Abjurant Champion around getting 3rd level spells isn't even that painful to a warrior dabling in spells as you just need a single level to meet it's spell prereqs and then five levels later you have 3rd level spells; sure it is a far more warrior that caster but is still makes six levels of this very nice. I also get sick of hearing the "Greater Magic Weapon is just better than the AA's Enhanced Arrows" BS but I see this makes that even more true by allowing alternate +1 abilities. Maybe I'm not reading it carefully enough but with this model I can add abilities to the arrows with this class, abilities with the bow, and THEN add GMW to the bow allowing even more craziness. The AA's nice ability really took a hit from 3.0 to 3.5 when the bow and arrow enhancements no longer stacked; my solution is to simply make the AA's advancements untyped (and add the ability to overcome DRs as another feature) effectively giving it a great feat equivalent every other level. GMA does have a problem with Dispel Magic but few DMs like taking that option. You, and many others, may think that Imbue Arrow is the ONLY redeeming ability about the AA but I would be happy without it even being there. Now days it isn't even that unique so I don't worry about it. On skills: Unless things really change (please make notes if they do) there is nothing except for the skill list that suggests Ranger/Wizard which may merit six skill points. Maybe the official AA could use that skill boost but this class certainly doesn't need it. As I mentioned earlier giving up eight ranks in Bowmaking is nothing to a caster when you can make up all those lost ranks with two levels of this.
Eldariel 03-19-08, 02:32 AM	Adding Combat Casting to the prereqs doesn't change much as that just pushes the character into some easy levels of Abjurant Champion as well. With the Abjurant Champion around getting 3rd level spells isn't even that painful to a warrior dabling in spells as you just need a single level to meet it's spell prereqs and then five levels later you have 3rd level spells; sure it is a far more warrior that caster but is still makes six levels of this very nice. Point, but what other bad feats that make sense are there really? Skill Focus: Craft (Bowmaking)? Feels a bit desperate. I also get sick of hearing the "Greater Magic Weapon is just better than the AA's Enhanced Arrows" BS but I see this makes that even more true by allowing alternate +1 abilities. Maybe I'm not reading it carefully enough but with this model I can add abilities to the arrows with this class, abilities with the bow, and THEN add GMW to the bow allowing even more craziness. The AA's nice ability really took a hit from 3.0 to 3.5 when the bow and arrow enhancements no longer stacked; my solution is to simply make the AA's advancements untyped (and add the ability to overcome DRs as another feature) effectively giving it a great feat equivalent every other level. GMA does have a problem with Dispel Magic but few DMs like taking that option. Yes, with this version, you get Bow, Arrow and GMW. That's the whole point; if you opt to not use magical arrows, you get inherently magical arrows. This fixes the problem of AA's ability not stacking; since we're talking about enhancing arrows, making the bonus untyped just seems unelegant as it's the same enhancement as the weapon enhancement. As I said, GMW is almost as good as Enhance Arrow. Yes, it can be dispelled, but it's a level 3 spell so you can easily Quicken it with a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Quicken and cast it again; opponent spent an action to dispel it thus giving you an extra action to punish him. The point is that the difference in efficiency isn't worth 10 levels (Epic is slightly redeeming, but then you lose out on Epic Spellcasting, so not really). You, and many others, may think that Imbue Arrow is the ONLY redeeming ability about the AA but I would be happy without it even being there. Now days it isn't even that unique so I don't worry about it. On skills: Unless things really change (please make notes if they do) there is nothing except for the skill list that suggests Ranger/Wizard which may merit six skill points. Maybe the official AA could use that skill boost but this class certainly doesn't need it. As I mentioned earlier giving up eight ranks in Bowmaking is nothing to a caster when you can make up all those lost ranks with two levels of this. I still don't realize what you mean by this. Yes, you can max all the caster skills, but that still doesn't make you broken and if you've got the option, why not go for the ranger skills too?
StevenO 03-19-08, 02:52 AM	Point, but what other bad feats that make sense are there really? Skill Focus: Craft (Bowmaking)? Feels a bit desperate. Once again Precise Shot is an official prereq and has some use to casters so add it back in. Yes, with this version, you get Bow, Arrow and GMW. That's the whole point; if you opt to not use magical arrows, you get inherently magical arrows. This fixes the problem of AA's ability not stacking; since we're talking about enhancing arrows, making the bonus untyped just seems unelegant as it's the same enhancement as the weapon enhancement. Inelegant?!? How is just changing the normal AA's enhanced arrow to an untyped bonus not an elegant solution to the preceived weakness of the ability vs. GMW? You want complex that is your getting different enchantments from the AA, still more from the actual bow, and then throwing GMW into the works as well. With the normal AA it is possible to get a +9 equivalent weapon pre-epic but as I understand it using this class increases that to +13! I still don't realize what you mean by this. Yes, you can max all the caster skills, but that still doesn't make you broken and if you've got the option, why not go for the ranger skills too? My problem with six skill points is that it removes the skill prereq from a caster's radar. Instead of advancing a "useful" skill a character needs 8 ranks in a craft skill. With this giving six skill points per level those 8 sacrificed skill points are easily made up by spending the four skill points beyond the typical caster's two to buy back the prereq.
Eldariel 03-19-08, 03:01 AM	Once again Precise Shot is an official prereq and has some use to casters so add it back in. That doesn't address the issue of useless prereqs though; any self-respecting AA is going to have Precise anyways. That's why I didn't feel it necessary; I didn't want to force the AA to pick it before entering AA. I'm fairly sure most AAs will pick it anyways and the rest end up blasting their friends with Imbued spells. Inelegant?!? How is just changing the normal AA's enhanced arrow to an untyped bonus not an elegant solution to the preceived weakness of the ability vs. GMW? You want complex that is your getting different enchantments from the AA, still more from the actual bow, and then throwing GMW into the works as well. With the normal AA it is possible to get a +9 equivalent weapon pre-epic but as I understand it using this class increases that to +13! The arrow can reach ridiculous bonuses anyways, that's not the point; Your version can get +19 worth of bonuses max with +10 base arrow (+1 bow with +9 worth of abilities, +5 arrow, GMW - mine has +1 bow, +9 worth of abilities, +5 worth of arrow abilities and GMW), only in your version we have an enhancement that's identical to core +X enhancement, except it somehow grants a different type of bonus. That doesn't make sense, which is my problem. If you use Fletching, you can get +10 arrows of course, but it's slow and expensive, so those should be the kinds of Coup de Grace-style items, sort of like Arrow of Death, except at player's capacity. My problem with six skill points is that it removes the skill prereq from a caster's radar. Instead of advancing a "useful" skill a character needs 8 ranks in a craft skill. With this giving six skill points per level those 8 sacrificed skill points are easily made up by spending the four skill points beyond the typical caster's two to buy back the prereq. Well, the skill prereqs aren't supposed to be restrictive, but rather guiding. I mean, look at Swiftblade, it requires Concentration and Spellcraft, two skills caster maxes anyways so in effect it has no skill prereqs; this at least costs you 8 skill points for 2 more skills per level. One will feel it especially before entering AA, and on the first levels of AA too.