Arcane Hierophant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Hierophant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mr_Zed
05-05-07, 11:48 PM I've got a couple of questions about this class and just wanted some advice on which way I should go.

I've got a player who has a Wiz5/Drd3 and wants to go Arcane Hierophant. She has a raven familiar, and has the shapeshift alternate class feature (from PHB2), which causes her to give up a animal companion and wild shape.

Basically she doesnt want to lose the raven (sentimental reasons). Would it be possible to keep this raven as a companion familiar?

The first problem is that its not on any animal companion lists, but I didnt really see any harm in this. I assumed that she would lose the +3 to appraise, but the familiar would keep all its abilities it would normally have (such as the ability to speak a languange, and the abilities from being a lvl 5 wiz). It would start gaining more familiar abilities as the arcane hierophant lvls increase, and would also start getting the animal companion abilities too (increased HD, armor etc).

The second problem, however, is that the shapeshift ability means you have to give up the animal companion ability - which means she doesnt actually have an animal companion as such. I dont know if this is a problem - i guess i just need advice. Im not sure if 'companion familiar' modifies 'familiar' and 'animal companion' or if it is an actual new ability that grants a companion familiar. I guess its the same problem for a specialist wizard that gave up their familiar for more class features - do you now gain a companion familiar even though you never had the familiar ability?

The other question I had, was that this character has shapeshift instead of wildshape. Technically for the arcane hierophant you need to have wildshape to gain more ability in wildshape. But i know that this is not a big issue, its easy enough to assume that wildshape=shapeshift. THE PROBLEM however is that for a character to get shapeshift, they not only have to give up wildshape, but also animal companion. In otherwords, this hero seems to be getting something for free upon entering arcane hierophant.

As a side note, what do you guys think of the shapeshift ability? Is it better or worse than wildshape?

Thanks for your help.
Lotus Crane
05-06-07, 12:25 AM From what most people on these boards seem to think, shapeshift is markedly weaker than wildshape, enough so that the additional loss of the animal companion is unjustified.

Instead of losing the animal companion completely, it should just be moved back to 5th level (when a standard druid would gain wildshape).

As for your specific question, while it technically doesn't follow the RAW, there should be absolutely no balance-tipping ramifications from allowing the PC in question to retain her raven as a companion familiar.
Drachasor
05-06-07, 02:22 AM Technically she loses the Raven. If she really wants to keep it should could spend a feat on a familiar (Complete Arcane). That's expensive, but it is the only legal way.

You could have the raven grow larger and become an appropriate animal for a Druid. Give it the states of a flying bird the druid can get, but just say it is a large raven.

And as far as class abilities like familiars and such go, just ignore any oddities wildshape while using them. You keep your animal companion.

-Drachasor
CantripN
05-06-07, 08:57 AM Bah. RAW sucks here. Just make the Familiar her Companion Familiar, and use her level as an AH for abilities for the Druid side. I never really got why you couldn't choose which one to use, or just merge the two in some ritual...
She still wouldn't lose XP if it died, despite being a Familiar.
Mr_Zed
05-06-07, 11:48 PM What I dont get, is that you have a Wiz3/Drd3 - and this character has a familiar AND an animal companion. You enter Arcane Hierophant, and have to lose the familiar (instead you get a smarter companion). Its almost as if its a penalty made to balance this PrC.
Morgen
05-08-07, 09:09 PM You can't take the class as a Wiz3/Drd3 though, you don't meet the BAB requirements.

And it gives you what is essentually the ability to have a really powerful critter roaming about with you, especially if you sneak in a level of Beastmaster and take the Natural Bond (which makes up for the Wizard levels.) So you'd get a nice tasty +6 to your Druid level for the purposes of a companion and end up at level 9 with a 12th level Animal Companion and a 5th level Familiar all in one just waiting to be animal growthed, nightstalker'ed and tensers'ed into something rediculious.
JediJon
11-05-07, 07:15 PM Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I'm wondering about this exact issue. Assuming you're qualifying for the AH PrC via Druid3/Wiz3/Beastmaster1, can you grab Natural Bond AND Practiced Spellcaster (Druid)?

Wouldn't you then qualify for your 3 levels of druid, 4 levels of druid (since you've got 7 HD and only 3 are actually Druid levels), +1 level since Beastmaster stacks, +3 levels for the beastmaster 1st level ability, +3 levels for Natural bond....

Giving you an 14th level animal companion @ 7th level? (or 16th level animal companion in the post immediately above @ 9th char. level) Thanks for the opinions!
Apupunchau
11-05-07, 07:23 PM Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I'm wondering about this exact issue. Assuming you're qualifying for the AH PrC via Druid3/Wiz3/Beastmaster1, can you grab Natural Bond AND Practiced Spellcaster (Druid)?

Wouldn't you then qualify for your 3 levels of druid, 4 levels of druid (since you've got 7 HD and only 3 are actually Druid levels), +1 level since Beastmaster stacks, +3 levels for the beastmaster 1st level ability, +3 levels for Natural bond....

Giving you an 14th level animal companion @ 7th level? (or 16th level animal companion in the post immediately above @ 9th char. level) Thanks for the opinions!

Not sure about anything else but natural bond doesn't let you go over your actual druid level for Animal Companion.

Also here's another issue aren't you required to have both an animal companion and familiar to get into arcane heirophant. If you are giving up your companion for Shapeshift how can you even qualify for this class.
Marcus Majarra
11-05-07, 08:43 PM Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I'm wondering about this exact issue. Assuming you're qualifying for the AH PrC via Druid3/Wiz3/Beastmaster1, can you grab Natural Bond AND Practiced Spellcaster (Druid)?

Wouldn't you then qualify for your 3 levels of druid, 4 levels of druid (since you've got 7 HD and only 3 are actually Druid levels), +1 level since Beastmaster stacks, +3 levels for the beastmaster 1st level ability, +3 levels for Natural bond....

Giving you an 14th level animal companion @ 7th level? (or 16th level animal companion in the post immediately above @ 9th char. level) Thanks for the opinions!
Practiced Spellcaster does not improve companion abilities. These are all dependent on your druid level, not your druid caster level. As such, taking Natural Bond and 1 level of Beastmaster, here, results in a 10th-level companion (Drd 3 + Bst 1 + 3 + 3).
Apupunchau
11-05-07, 09:14 PM Practiced Spellcaster does not improve companion abilities. These are all dependent on your druid level, not your druid caster level. As such, taking Natural Bond and 1 level of Beastmaster, here, results in a 10th-level companion (Drd 3 + Bst 1 + 3 + 3).

This still won't work, Natural Bond will not raise your effective druid level over your actual druid level. So even if took Drd 3/any non AC class 3/Bst 1. You'd be 7th level and you'd have a 7th level animal companion but you couldn't take natural bond because your actual Druid level is 4 (Drd 3 + Bst 1 which stacks) but with the +3 from Bst as well you already have an effective druid level higher than your actual druid level and Natural Bond won't let you go higher than your actual druid level.
Marcus Majarra
11-06-07, 11:27 PM This still won't work, Natural Bond will not raise your effective druid level over your actual druid level. So even if took Drd 3/any non AC class 3/Bst 1. You'd be 7th level and you'd have a 7th level animal companion but you couldn't take natural bond because your actual Druid level is 4 (Drd 3 + Bst 1 which stacks) but with the +3 from Bst as well you already have an effective druid level higher than your actual druid level and Natural Bond won't let you go higher than your actual druid level.
Your reasoning is incorrect, here. You always get to apply bonuses in the order most beneficial to you. As it is, the Beastmaster bonus can increase your effective druid level above your actual druid level. There's no reason why you shouldn't apply the Natural Bond bonus first. Thus, the Drd 3 / Ftr 1 / Bst 1 with Natural Bond does enjoy a 10th-level companion. He has 3 druid levels, to which Natural Bond adds another three, since he has at least 6 character levels. To that, you add the bonus levels from beastmaster, for a grand total of 10.

This is no different from an Ultimate Magus with Practiced Spellcaster applying the feat's bonus to caster level before applying his class bonus to caster level.
Apupunchau
11-07-07, 12:33 PM Yeah but the bonus from Natural Bond reads "This Bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level" so no matter when you add if your druid level exceeds your character level it is null and void.
Marcus Majarra
11-07-07, 07:13 PM Yeah but the bonus from Natural Bond reads "This Bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level" so no matter when you add if your druid level exceeds your character level it is null and void.
That's logically incorrect. If I'm a Drd 3 / Ftr 3 and take Natural Bond, my companion is that of a 6th-level druid. If I take a level of Beastmaster, I gain a bonus which can make my effective druid level exceed my character level. The order of application is important here, since the bonus from the feat isn't making the effective druid level exceed your character level. It's the bonus from Beastmaster that's doing it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mr_Zed 05-05-07, 11:48 PM	I've got a couple of questions about this class and just wanted some advice on which way I should go. I've got a player who has a Wiz5/Drd3 and wants to go Arcane Hierophant. She has a raven familiar, and has the shapeshift alternate class feature (from PHB2), which causes her to give up a animal companion and wild shape. Basically she doesnt want to lose the raven (sentimental reasons). Would it be possible to keep this raven as a companion familiar? The first problem is that its not on any animal companion lists, but I didnt really see any harm in this. I assumed that she would lose the +3 to appraise, but the familiar would keep all its abilities it would normally have (such as the ability to speak a languange, and the abilities from being a lvl 5 wiz). It would start gaining more familiar abilities as the arcane hierophant lvls increase, and would also start getting the animal companion abilities too (increased HD, armor etc). The second problem, however, is that the shapeshift ability means you have to give up the animal companion ability - which means she doesnt actually have an animal companion as such. I dont know if this is a problem - i guess i just need advice. Im not sure if 'companion familiar' modifies 'familiar' and 'animal companion' or if it is an actual new ability that grants a companion familiar. I guess its the same problem for a specialist wizard that gave up their familiar for more class features - do you now gain a companion familiar even though you never had the familiar ability? The other question I had, was that this character has shapeshift instead of wildshape. Technically for the arcane hierophant you need to have wildshape to gain more ability in wildshape. But i know that this is not a big issue, its easy enough to assume that wildshape=shapeshift. THE PROBLEM however is that for a character to get shapeshift, they not only have to give up wildshape, but also animal companion. In otherwords, this hero seems to be getting something for free upon entering arcane hierophant. As a side note, what do you guys think of the shapeshift ability? Is it better or worse than wildshape? Thanks for your help.
Lotus Crane 05-06-07, 12:25 AM	From what most people on these boards seem to think, shapeshift is markedly weaker than wildshape, enough so that the additional loss of the animal companion is unjustified. Instead of losing the animal companion completely, it should just be moved back to 5th level (when a standard druid would gain wildshape). As for your specific question, while it technically doesn't follow the RAW, there should be absolutely no balance-tipping ramifications from allowing the PC in question to retain her raven as a companion familiar.
Drachasor 05-06-07, 02:22 AM	Technically she loses the Raven. If she really wants to keep it should could spend a feat on a familiar (Complete Arcane). That's expensive, but it is the only legal way. You could have the raven grow larger and become an appropriate animal for a Druid. Give it the states of a flying bird the druid can get, but just say it is a large raven. And as far as class abilities like familiars and such go, just ignore any oddities wildshape while using them. You keep your animal companion. -Drachasor
CantripN 05-06-07, 08:57 AM	Bah. RAW sucks here. Just make the Familiar her Companion Familiar, and use her level as an AH for abilities for the Druid side. I never really got why you couldn't choose which one to use, or just merge the two in some ritual... She still wouldn't lose XP if it died, despite being a Familiar.
Mr_Zed 05-06-07, 11:48 PM	What I dont get, is that you have a Wiz3/Drd3 - and this character has a familiar AND an animal companion. You enter Arcane Hierophant, and have to lose the familiar (instead you get a smarter companion). Its almost as if its a penalty made to balance this PrC.
Morgen 05-08-07, 09:09 PM	You can't take the class as a Wiz3/Drd3 though, you don't meet the BAB requirements. And it gives you what is essentually the ability to have a really powerful critter roaming about with you, especially if you sneak in a level of Beastmaster and take the Natural Bond (which makes up for the Wizard levels.) So you'd get a nice tasty +6 to your Druid level for the purposes of a companion and end up at level 9 with a 12th level Animal Companion and a 5th level Familiar all in one just waiting to be animal growthed, nightstalker'ed and tensers'ed into something rediculious.
JediJon 11-05-07, 07:15 PM	Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I'm wondering about this exact issue. Assuming you're qualifying for the AH PrC via Druid3/Wiz3/Beastmaster1, can you grab Natural Bond AND Practiced Spellcaster (Druid)? Wouldn't you then qualify for your 3 levels of druid, 4 levels of druid (since you've got 7 HD and only 3 are actually Druid levels), +1 level since Beastmaster stacks, +3 levels for the beastmaster 1st level ability, +3 levels for Natural bond.... Giving you an 14th level animal companion @ 7th level? (or 16th level animal companion in the post immediately above @ 9th char. level) Thanks for the opinions!
Apupunchau 11-05-07, 07:23 PM	Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I'm wondering about this exact issue. Assuming you're qualifying for the AH PrC via Druid3/Wiz3/Beastmaster1, can you grab Natural Bond AND Practiced Spellcaster (Druid)? Wouldn't you then qualify for your 3 levels of druid, 4 levels of druid (since you've got 7 HD and only 3 are actually Druid levels), +1 level since Beastmaster stacks, +3 levels for the beastmaster 1st level ability, +3 levels for Natural bond.... Giving you an 14th level animal companion @ 7th level? (or 16th level animal companion in the post immediately above @ 9th char. level) Thanks for the opinions! Not sure about anything else but natural bond doesn't let you go over your actual druid level for Animal Companion. Also here's another issue aren't you required to have both an animal companion and familiar to get into arcane heirophant. If you are giving up your companion for Shapeshift how can you even qualify for this class.
Marcus Majarra 11-05-07, 08:43 PM	Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I'm wondering about this exact issue. Assuming you're qualifying for the AH PrC via Druid3/Wiz3/Beastmaster1, can you grab Natural Bond AND Practiced Spellcaster (Druid)? Wouldn't you then qualify for your 3 levels of druid, 4 levels of druid (since you've got 7 HD and only 3 are actually Druid levels), +1 level since Beastmaster stacks, +3 levels for the beastmaster 1st level ability, +3 levels for Natural bond.... Giving you an 14th level animal companion @ 7th level? (or 16th level animal companion in the post immediately above @ 9th char. level) Thanks for the opinions! Practiced Spellcaster does not improve companion abilities. These are all dependent on your druid level, not your druid caster level. As such, taking Natural Bond and 1 level of Beastmaster, here, results in a 10th-level companion (Drd 3 + Bst 1 + 3 + 3).
Apupunchau 11-05-07, 09:14 PM	Practiced Spellcaster does not improve companion abilities. These are all dependent on your druid level, not your druid caster level. As such, taking Natural Bond and 1 level of Beastmaster, here, results in a 10th-level companion (Drd 3 + Bst 1 + 3 + 3). This still won't work, Natural Bond will not raise your effective druid level over your actual druid level. So even if took Drd 3/any non AC class 3/Bst 1. You'd be 7th level and you'd have a 7th level animal companion but you couldn't take natural bond because your actual Druid level is 4 (Drd 3 + Bst 1 which stacks) but with the +3 from Bst as well you already have an effective druid level higher than your actual druid level and Natural Bond won't let you go higher than your actual druid level.
Marcus Majarra 11-06-07, 11:27 PM	This still won't work, Natural Bond will not raise your effective druid level over your actual druid level. So even if took Drd 3/any non AC class 3/Bst 1. You'd be 7th level and you'd have a 7th level animal companion but you couldn't take natural bond because your actual Druid level is 4 (Drd 3 + Bst 1 which stacks) but with the +3 from Bst as well you already have an effective druid level higher than your actual druid level and Natural Bond won't let you go higher than your actual druid level. Your reasoning is incorrect, here. You always get to apply bonuses in the order most beneficial to you. As it is, the Beastmaster bonus can increase your effective druid level above your actual druid level. There's no reason why you shouldn't apply the Natural Bond bonus first. Thus, the Drd 3 / Ftr 1 / Bst 1 with Natural Bond does enjoy a 10th-level companion. He has 3 druid levels, to which Natural Bond adds another three, since he has at least 6 character levels. To that, you add the bonus levels from beastmaster, for a grand total of 10. This is no different from an Ultimate Magus with Practiced Spellcaster applying the feat's bonus to caster level before applying his class bonus to caster level.
Apupunchau 11-07-07, 12:33 PM	Yeah but the bonus from Natural Bond reads "This Bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level" so no matter when you add if your druid level exceeds your character level it is null and void.
Marcus Majarra 11-07-07, 07:13 PM	Yeah but the bonus from Natural Bond reads "This Bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level" so no matter when you add if your druid level exceeds your character level it is null and void. That's logically incorrect. If I'm a Drd 3 / Ftr 3 and take Natural Bond, my companion is that of a 6th-level druid. If I take a level of Beastmaster, I gain a bonus which can make my effective druid level exceed my character level. The order of application is important here, since the bonus from the feat isn't making the effective druid level exceed your character level. It's the bonus from Beastmaster that's doing it.