Archmage/Ultimate Magus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archmage/Ultimate Magus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GorunNova
01-17-08, 07:42 AM Hi,

My DM started a new campaign recently and i wantet to try out a Wizard whit a Draconic background so i decided for the Ultimate Magus of the Complet Mage Supplement.
I want my charakter like this in the end: Wizard4/Sorcerer1/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage5
My question now is will the Highen Arcana of the Archmage be usabel for both the Sorcerer and the Wizard Spells?:confused:
LSMFT
01-17-08, 11:44 AM It should be usable for both.

Though it will be your wizard side that helps you meet some of the prereqs (able to cast 7th-level arcane spells), the benefits of High Arcana speak only of spells and slots. They don't specify that those spells and slots need to come from any particular class you have.
dman11235
01-17-08, 11:46 AM Uh, huh. I don't see anything limiting it to one class... It may be that you can only use it for the class that you use to nix the spell slot, but that's a leap in logic. Now, you do realize that you don't qualify for archmage, right? It requires 7th level spells. So two more levels of wizard spellcasting or sorcerer spellcasting are needed.

EDIT: ninja'd. I do agree with LSMFT, I was just throwing out the possible opposition.
LSMFT
01-17-08, 12:30 PM Now, you do realize that you don't qualify for archmage, right? It requires 7th level spells. So two more levels of wizard spellcasting or sorcerer spellcasting are needed.I'm pretty sure he can do it using "the Practiced Spellcaster trick."

With that, he'll have get 9 wizard-levels from UM, plus the 4 true wizard level, means casting as a wizard 13.

I assumed he was going that way.

Another thing to keep in mind, since you were looking at Draconic stuff, though you need to have sorcerer-levels to qualify for the draconic feats, none of the feats actually specify that the benefits are limited to your sorcerer spells.

If you have Draconic Breath, you should be able to convert wizard spell-slots to t abreath weapon if you want. Draconic Power will raise your caster-level in both classes by one, and the boost to DC will apply to all energy-appropriate spells regardless of which class they are from.
GorunNova
01-17-08, 03:44 PM I'm pretty sure he can do it using "the Practiced Spellcaster trick."

With that, he'll have get 9 wizard-levels from UM, plus the 4 true wizard level, means casting as a wizard 13.

I assumed he was going that way.

Another thing to keep in mind, since you were looking at Draconic stuff, though you need to have sorcerer-levels to qualify for the draconic feats, none of the feats actually specify that the benefits are limited to your sorcerer spells.

If you have Draconic Breath, you should be able to convert wizard spell-slots to t abreath weapon if you want. Draconic Power will raise your caster-level in both classes by one, and the boost to DC will apply to all energy-appropriate spells regardless of which class they are from.

Wher is this Draconic Power feat(?) from?
The problem whit the Sorcerer Heritag feats are that i got only a few feats left after meating the preq. for both Prestig Classes.
LSMFT
01-17-08, 03:59 PM Draconic Power is from Complete Arcane.

You could still get those two feats before 15th level when you enter archmage. But it would be quite an investment. Probably not worth it.

I only mentioned it because when I saw your reference to Draconic, I assumed you were thinking Draconic feats.
dman11235
01-17-08, 05:22 PM Practiced spell caster doesn't increase spells known, only your CL. And I count 11 wizard levels with UM. 4 to start, and then 7 from the class.
Arkeas
01-18-08, 04:46 AM The Practised Spellcaster trick works by you taking it for sorcerer before you enter Ultimate Magus. At the first two levels where you only gain only one casting advancement it says to upgrade your casting from the class with the lower caster level. Now (if you bother to do the logic) for the first level of the two you gain a level of wizard spellcasting (because you have wizard CL 4 and sorcerer CL 1+4) and the second level you can chose wizard again because they are equal (wizard CL 7 and sorcerer CL 3+4).
StevenO
01-18-08, 02:57 PM I don't know if you have the feats to spare but it is possible to combine UM with AM and have the High Arcana abilities worth with both casting types. Nothing in the High Arcana state they only work for one type of casting.

Again depending on wether or not the feats work it would be possible to get that build a HUGE Caster level by substituting an Archmage Level for Wild Mage. You'd probably want to put the first casting increase from AM into Sorcerer so you can access 5th level slot and then canabize those spell slots for High Arcana - Spell Power four times for a +4 CL. At 20th level you'd have base casting at 17/10 with CL +4 from Spell Power (Archmage), +4 Arcane Spell Power (UM), -3+d6 (Wild Magic), and up to +4 from Practiced Spellcaster. That combo can get your Wizard spell casting level up to CL 31 and Sorcerer casting at CL 25.
dman11235
01-18-08, 04:06 PM Oh. Well, that's dumb.
StevenO
01-18-08, 06:50 PM Oh. Well, that's dumb.
To what does this refer?

The "trick" with Practiced Spellcaster that enables most of the UM's caster increases to go to one class? That has been noted since the class was first posted in the previews and had repeatedly been ruled as legitimate and probably even intentional.

Or are you refering to the obscene caster level one can get? Pushing it to the level I mentioned above is a little high and often a waste but is perfectly legal.
dman11235
01-18-08, 09:20 PM The first one. Getting a higher caster level like that is just not right. But I'm not too familiar, so it may just be knee-jerk.
StevenO
01-18-08, 11:45 PM With the Practiced Spellcaster "trick" the UM can be used pretty well by a caster who wants to be more more focused in one area than the other while advancing both. At times the biggest problem with the "trick" is that it almost acts as a backdoor prereq that requires a slightly more difficult build. If you'd want to play UM like an inspired Mystic Theruge it is certainly possible to exit the class with an 11/11 split at 15th level but many people consider being a level late getting a certain spell level as weak here you are four levels back.

Having a higher Caster Level can be useful but isn't really such a big deal. The only two real effects are the slightly increases spell potential (a few more dice of damage and/or a longer duration) and the ability to more easily penetrate Spell Resistance. With Practiced Spellcaster's cap at a character's HD you shouldn't need to worry about the CL exceeding what a single level character could do.
Sinfire Titan
01-19-08, 01:16 AM With the Practiced Spellcaster "trick" the UM can be used pretty well by a caster who wants to be more more focused in one area than the other while advancing both. At times the biggest problem with the "trick" is that it almost acts as a backdoor prereq that requires a slightly more difficult build. If you'd want to play UM like an inspired Mystic Theruge it is certainly possible to exit the class with an 11/11 split at 15th level but many people consider being a level late getting a certain spell level as weak here you are four levels back.

Having a higher Caster Level can be useful but isn't really such a big deal. The only two real effects are the slightly increases spell potential (a few more dice of damage and/or a longer duration) and the ability to more easily penetrate Spell Resistance. With Practiced Spellcaster's cap at a character's HD you shouldn't need to worry about the CL exceeding what a single level character could do.

*Points to the spell Wings of Furry.*

Of everything that comes with a high CL, it isn't really worth it unless your DM made an uncapped Disintegrate. In which case, there is a trick to get your CL into the 50's by level 17.
Malicea
01-19-08, 12:37 PM With the Practiced Spellcaster "trick" the UM can be used pretty well by a caster who wants to be more more focused in one area than the other while advancing both. At times the biggest problem with the "trick" is that it almost acts as a backdoor prereq that requires a slightly more difficult build.

Or pick an Illumian with Practiced Spellcaster and just get full progression for Wizard from UM. Max caster level for both classes until UM 7 too! :) Also, consider picking up Beguiler1 instead of Sorcerer1 (at level 1 for max skill points and hp), and less MAD; although there isn't much of a draconic link then...
Neraagile
02-05-08, 11:04 PM Thank you people you just managed to give me the idear I needed to further increase the capabilities of one of my idear builds ^^
luedre
02-05-08, 11:55 PM There's also Master SpellThief with a level 1 spell thief. Honestly Wizard needs to come out with something that clarifies it, but you need only take one level of Spell Thief and all your arcane caster levels add up to your character level. Of course, this might be a little abusive to use with Ultimate Magus, but alas, wizard needs to come out with an Errata or faq for that combo.
Neraagile
02-06-08, 01:59 AM I suppose the stealing spells works, but doesn't it still have a caster level of 1? (or is this completely and utterly wrong).
Sinfire Titan
02-06-08, 02:02 AM I suppose the stealing spells works, but doesn't it still have a caster level of 1? (or is this completely and utterly wrong).

The spell is cast at your CL, not your Spellthief Level. And remember that you can yoink them from willing allies.
Neraagile
02-06-08, 02:10 AM well the point I was thinking of was more that, if Spell Theif has got a CL it qualifies for UM's +1 lowest caster level (personally I'm trying to use the UM in a Wiz/Bard/Sublime Chord build)

Can't quite figure out though how Luedre's idear works....
Sinfire Titan
02-06-08, 02:51 AM well the point I was thinking of was more that, if Spell Theif has got a CL it qualifies for UM's +1 lowest caster level (personally I'm trying to use the UM in a Wiz/Bard/Sublime Chord build)

Can't quite figure out though how Luedre's idear works....

There's also Master SpellThief with a level 1 spell thief. Honestly Wizard needs to come out with something that clarifies it, but you need only take one level of Spell Thief and all your arcane caster levels add up to your character level. Of course, this might be a little abusive to use with Ultimate Magus, but alas, wizard needs to come out with an Errata or faq for that combo.

It goes Spellthief 1 with Practiced Spellcaster and any Metamagic feat, then Wiz 2 for Master Spellthief. You take another level of Wizard, and you then qualify for UM, and your Spellthief caster level is higher than your Wizard levels, you get one more Wizard level, putting them even with each other. Your CL is now 4th and 4th, and next three levels ups them evenly. You also have 1d6 SA, and no ASF in Light Armor. Mithral Breastplate, anyone? When you hit UM 7th, either your Wizard levels or your Spellthief levels will increase, your choice (choose Wizard!). You then profit off of stolen spells.
luedre
02-06-08, 09:48 AM Actually, I would still use Sorc in there, why? Because the spells for spell thief suck. Master Spellthief allows you to steal spells dependant on your other arcane caster classes. It also puts all your casting for arcane spell casters at the same level. So if you go Wizard 3, Sorc 1, Spellthief 1(or 2 if you want to steal spell effect) you need to of course make sure you are human or some other with favored class of wizard. When you progress, your caster level would be at 5 for all of them, meaning, you could choose to just not raise sorc and keep with wizard. IE, when you get to level 20, you will be behind 2 or 3 levels in wizard, depending on how you went, but your caster level would still be over 20. I would argue that since Master Spellthief breaks when using Ultimate Magus, is that you limit your caster level to your character level, which it never says in the feat description. For Reference, Master Spellthief is in complete scoundrel.
MongooseFamiliar
02-08-08, 12:02 PM Beguiler/Wizard is also a common Ultimate Magus build, since both run off of intelligence. Less MAD.
ninjarabbit
02-09-08, 08:22 AM If you are dragon-blooded somehow (dragonborn or spellscale for example) you can swap getting a familar from your sorcerer side for the draconic heritage feat, useful if you want the draconic heritage line of feats while saving you a feat.
StevenO
02-09-08, 02:18 PM If building a UM with Wizard/Sorcerer I'd drop the Sorcerer's Familiar for the Rapid Metamagic option in PHB2. Once per day per point of INT modifier you can apply a MM feat to a sorcerer spell without the normal casting time increase; great considering how the UM likes MM feats.
deathbane
02-12-08, 02:50 PM *Points to the spell Wings of Furry.*

Of everything that comes with a high CL, it isn't really worth it unless your DM made an uncapped Disintegrate. In which case, there is a trick to get your CL into the 50's by level 17.

Could you provide a link to this one. It is for preventive measures.
Sinfire Titan
02-12-08, 03:27 PM Could you provide a link to this one. It is for preventive measures.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=722608

Caster level 53 by ECL 3. Interestingly awesome, and really stupid to pull off.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GorunNova 01-17-08, 07:42 AM	Hi, My DM started a new campaign recently and i wantet to try out a Wizard whit a Draconic background so i decided for the Ultimate Magus of the Complet Mage Supplement. I want my charakter like this in the end: Wizard4/Sorcerer1/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage5 My question now is will the Highen Arcana of the Archmage be usabel for both the Sorcerer and the Wizard Spells?:confused:
LSMFT 01-17-08, 11:44 AM	It should be usable for both. Though it will be your wizard side that helps you meet some of the prereqs (able to cast 7th-level arcane spells), the benefits of High Arcana speak only of spells and slots. They don't specify that those spells and slots need to come from any particular class you have.
dman11235 01-17-08, 11:46 AM	Uh, huh. I don't see anything limiting it to one class... It may be that you can only use it for the class that you use to nix the spell slot, but that's a leap in logic. Now, you do realize that you don't qualify for archmage, right? It requires 7th level spells. So two more levels of wizard spellcasting or sorcerer spellcasting are needed. EDIT: ninja'd. I do agree with LSMFT, I was just throwing out the possible opposition.
LSMFT 01-17-08, 12:30 PM	Now, you do realize that you don't qualify for archmage, right? It requires 7th level spells. So two more levels of wizard spellcasting or sorcerer spellcasting are needed.I'm pretty sure he can do it using "the Practiced Spellcaster trick." With that, he'll have get 9 wizard-levels from UM, plus the 4 true wizard level, means casting as a wizard 13. I assumed he was going that way. Another thing to keep in mind, since you were looking at Draconic stuff, though you need to have sorcerer-levels to qualify for the draconic feats, none of the feats actually specify that the benefits are limited to your sorcerer spells. If you have Draconic Breath, you should be able to convert wizard spell-slots to t abreath weapon if you want. Draconic Power will raise your caster-level in both classes by one, and the boost to DC will apply to all energy-appropriate spells regardless of which class they are from.
GorunNova 01-17-08, 03:44 PM	I'm pretty sure he can do it using "the Practiced Spellcaster trick." With that, he'll have get 9 wizard-levels from UM, plus the 4 true wizard level, means casting as a wizard 13. I assumed he was going that way. Another thing to keep in mind, since you were looking at Draconic stuff, though you need to have sorcerer-levels to qualify for the draconic feats, none of the feats actually specify that the benefits are limited to your sorcerer spells. If you have Draconic Breath, you should be able to convert wizard spell-slots to t abreath weapon if you want. Draconic Power will raise your caster-level in both classes by one, and the boost to DC will apply to all energy-appropriate spells regardless of which class they are from. Wher is this Draconic Power feat(?) from? The problem whit the Sorcerer Heritag feats are that i got only a few feats left after meating the preq. for both Prestig Classes.
LSMFT 01-17-08, 03:59 PM	Draconic Power is from Complete Arcane. You could still get those two feats before 15th level when you enter archmage. But it would be quite an investment. Probably not worth it. I only mentioned it because when I saw your reference to Draconic, I assumed you were thinking Draconic feats.
dman11235 01-17-08, 05:22 PM	Practiced spell caster doesn't increase spells known, only your CL. And I count 11 wizard levels with UM. 4 to start, and then 7 from the class.
Arkeas 01-18-08, 04:46 AM	The Practised Spellcaster trick works by you taking it for sorcerer before you enter Ultimate Magus. At the first two levels where you only gain only one casting advancement it says to upgrade your casting from the class with the lower caster level. Now (if you bother to do the logic) for the first level of the two you gain a level of wizard spellcasting (because you have wizard CL 4 and sorcerer CL 1+4) and the second level you can chose wizard again because they are equal (wizard CL 7 and sorcerer CL 3+4).
StevenO 01-18-08, 02:57 PM	I don't know if you have the feats to spare but it is possible to combine UM with AM and have the High Arcana abilities worth with both casting types. Nothing in the High Arcana state they only work for one type of casting. Again depending on wether or not the feats work it would be possible to get that build a HUGE Caster level by substituting an Archmage Level for Wild Mage. You'd probably want to put the first casting increase from AM into Sorcerer so you can access 5th level slot and then canabize those spell slots for High Arcana - Spell Power four times for a +4 CL. At 20th level you'd have base casting at 17/10 with CL +4 from Spell Power (Archmage), +4 Arcane Spell Power (UM), -3+d6 (Wild Magic), and up to +4 from Practiced Spellcaster. That combo can get your Wizard spell casting level up to CL 31 and Sorcerer casting at CL 25.
dman11235 01-18-08, 04:06 PM	Oh. Well, that's dumb.
StevenO 01-18-08, 06:50 PM	Oh. Well, that's dumb. To what does this refer? The "trick" with Practiced Spellcaster that enables most of the UM's caster increases to go to one class? That has been noted since the class was first posted in the previews and had repeatedly been ruled as legitimate and probably even intentional. Or are you refering to the obscene caster level one can get? Pushing it to the level I mentioned above is a little high and often a waste but is perfectly legal.
dman11235 01-18-08, 09:20 PM	The first one. Getting a higher caster level like that is just not right. But I'm not too familiar, so it may just be knee-jerk.
StevenO 01-18-08, 11:45 PM	With the Practiced Spellcaster "trick" the UM can be used pretty well by a caster who wants to be more more focused in one area than the other while advancing both. At times the biggest problem with the "trick" is that it almost acts as a backdoor prereq that requires a slightly more difficult build. If you'd want to play UM like an inspired Mystic Theruge it is certainly possible to exit the class with an 11/11 split at 15th level but many people consider being a level late getting a certain spell level as weak here you are four levels back. Having a higher Caster Level can be useful but isn't really such a big deal. The only two real effects are the slightly increases spell potential (a few more dice of damage and/or a longer duration) and the ability to more easily penetrate Spell Resistance. With Practiced Spellcaster's cap at a character's HD you shouldn't need to worry about the CL exceeding what a single level character could do.
Sinfire Titan 01-19-08, 01:16 AM	With the Practiced Spellcaster "trick" the UM can be used pretty well by a caster who wants to be more more focused in one area than the other while advancing both. At times the biggest problem with the "trick" is that it almost acts as a backdoor prereq that requires a slightly more difficult build. If you'd want to play UM like an inspired Mystic Theruge it is certainly possible to exit the class with an 11/11 split at 15th level but many people consider being a level late getting a certain spell level as weak here you are four levels back. Having a higher Caster Level can be useful but isn't really such a big deal. The only two real effects are the slightly increases spell potential (a few more dice of damage and/or a longer duration) and the ability to more easily penetrate Spell Resistance. With Practiced Spellcaster's cap at a character's HD you shouldn't need to worry about the CL exceeding what a single level character could do. Points to the spell Wings of Furry. Of everything that comes with a high CL, it isn't really worth it unless your DM made an uncapped Disintegrate. In which case, there is a trick to get your CL into the 50's by level 17.
Malicea 01-19-08, 12:37 PM	With the Practiced Spellcaster "trick" the UM can be used pretty well by a caster who wants to be more more focused in one area than the other while advancing both. At times the biggest problem with the "trick" is that it almost acts as a backdoor prereq that requires a slightly more difficult build. Or pick an Illumian with Practiced Spellcaster and just get full progression for Wizard from UM. Max caster level for both classes until UM 7 too! :) Also, consider picking up Beguiler1 instead of Sorcerer1 (at level 1 for max skill points and hp), and less MAD; although there isn't much of a draconic link then...
Neraagile 02-05-08, 11:04 PM	Thank you people you just managed to give me the idear I needed to further increase the capabilities of one of my idear builds ^^
luedre 02-05-08, 11:55 PM	There's also Master SpellThief with a level 1 spell thief. Honestly Wizard needs to come out with something that clarifies it, but you need only take one level of Spell Thief and all your arcane caster levels add up to your character level. Of course, this might be a little abusive to use with Ultimate Magus, but alas, wizard needs to come out with an Errata or faq for that combo.
Neraagile 02-06-08, 01:59 AM	I suppose the stealing spells works, but doesn't it still have a caster level of 1? (or is this completely and utterly wrong).
Sinfire Titan 02-06-08, 02:02 AM	I suppose the stealing spells works, but doesn't it still have a caster level of 1? (or is this completely and utterly wrong). The spell is cast at your CL, not your Spellthief Level. And remember that you can yoink them from willing allies.
Neraagile 02-06-08, 02:10 AM	well the point I was thinking of was more that, if Spell Theif has got a CL it qualifies for UM's +1 lowest caster level (personally I'm trying to use the UM in a Wiz/Bard/Sublime Chord build) Can't quite figure out though how Luedre's idear works....
Sinfire Titan 02-06-08, 02:51 AM	well the point I was thinking of was more that, if Spell Theif has got a CL it qualifies for UM's +1 lowest caster level (personally I'm trying to use the UM in a Wiz/Bard/Sublime Chord build) Can't quite figure out though how Luedre's idear works.... There's also Master SpellThief with a level 1 spell thief. Honestly Wizard needs to come out with something that clarifies it, but you need only take one level of Spell Thief and all your arcane caster levels add up to your character level. Of course, this might be a little abusive to use with Ultimate Magus, but alas, wizard needs to come out with an Errata or faq for that combo. It goes Spellthief 1 with Practiced Spellcaster and any Metamagic feat, then Wiz 2 for Master Spellthief. You take another level of Wizard, and you then qualify for UM, and your Spellthief caster level is higher than your Wizard levels, you get one more Wizard level, putting them even with each other. Your CL is now 4th and 4th, and next three levels ups them evenly. You also have 1d6 SA, and no ASF in Light Armor. Mithral Breastplate, anyone? When you hit UM 7th, either your Wizard levels or your Spellthief levels will increase, your choice (choose Wizard!). You then profit off of stolen spells.
luedre 02-06-08, 09:48 AM	Actually, I would still use Sorc in there, why? Because the spells for spell thief suck. Master Spellthief allows you to steal spells dependant on your other arcane caster classes. It also puts all your casting for arcane spell casters at the same level. So if you go Wizard 3, Sorc 1, Spellthief 1(or 2 if you want to steal spell effect) you need to of course make sure you are human or some other with favored class of wizard. When you progress, your caster level would be at 5 for all of them, meaning, you could choose to just not raise sorc and keep with wizard. IE, when you get to level 20, you will be behind 2 or 3 levels in wizard, depending on how you went, but your caster level would still be over 20. I would argue that since Master Spellthief breaks when using Ultimate Magus, is that you limit your caster level to your character level, which it never says in the feat description. For Reference, Master Spellthief is in complete scoundrel.
MongooseFamiliar 02-08-08, 12:02 PM	Beguiler/Wizard is also a common Ultimate Magus build, since both run off of intelligence. Less MAD.
ninjarabbit 02-09-08, 08:22 AM	If you are dragon-blooded somehow (dragonborn or spellscale for example) you can swap getting a familar from your sorcerer side for the draconic heritage feat, useful if you want the draconic heritage line of feats while saving you a feat.
StevenO 02-09-08, 02:18 PM	If building a UM with Wizard/Sorcerer I'd drop the Sorcerer's Familiar for the Rapid Metamagic option in PHB2. Once per day per point of INT modifier you can apply a MM feat to a sorcerer spell without the normal casting time increase; great considering how the UM likes MM feats.
deathbane 02-12-08, 02:50 PM	Points to the spell Wings of Furry. Of everything that comes with a high CL, it isn't really worth it unless your DM made an uncapped Disintegrate. In which case, there is a trick to get your CL into the 50's by level 17. Could you provide a link to this one. It is for preventive measures.
Sinfire Titan 02-12-08, 03:27 PM	Could you provide a link to this one. It is for preventive measures. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=722608 Caster level 53 by ECL 3. Interestingly awesome, and really stupid to pull off.