Assassin's death attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Assassin's death attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bloody
05-23-07, 05:12 AM Hi,

One of the key changes from 3.0 to 3.5 was to avoid key special abilities of the classes to be granted on the very first levels (like the Paladin's Divine Grace, for example, or a lot of spellcaster prestige classes that do not advance their spellcasting level in their first level), to avoid multiclass abuses (and I certainly agree with this). But this issue is still there with the Assassin's death attack, a very key special ability that is granted on the first level of the assassin prestige class!

As one of my PCs now wants to use (not clear if abuse) now this "gap", I want to know your opinion about this and if could be really a problem or not. What do you think?

Thanks!

Bloody.

PD: Sorry for my bad english.
Gyrofthewastes
05-23-07, 08:35 AM It's kind of what makes an assassin an assassin. Moreover, with a three round preparation time, I've never found it to be particularly abusive. In most cases if a PC wishes to use it they have to roleplay a set-up. Which, being the sort of thing I like to encourage as a DM (as opposed to slogging through straight combats), is just fine by me.
RobbyPants
05-23-07, 03:23 PM One of the key changes from 3.0 to 3.5 was to avoid key special abilities of the classes to be granted on the very first levels (like the Paladin's Divine Grace, for example, or a lot of spellcaster prestige classes that do not advance their spellcasting level in their first level), to avoid multiclass abuses (and I certainly agree with this). But this issue is still there with the Assassin's death attack, a very key special ability that is granted on the first level of the assassin prestige class!
Well, you're technically right in that any PC can dip one level into assassin and get Death Attack. However, remember that the DC for Death Attack scales with the assassin's class level (DC 10 + Assassin's class level + Int mod).

Thus, if you dip in and back out, your DC for Death Attack will remain an abysmal 11 + Int mod. So, even if you're sitting at a DC 14 or 15, by the time you hit level 10 - 15, it will seldom work. What you're left with, is a sneak attack that takes three rounds to set up. :P Even a 10th level wizard can expect to make the save about 50% of the time.
Lotus Crane
05-24-07, 11:52 AM There are basically two ways to prevent front-loading and dipping.

The first, and still more exploitable way, is to simply delay the level at which an ability is gained at all (such as a paladin's divine grace, or a swashbuckler's insightful strike). Note however, that this does not do a very good job of discouraging sorcerer 18/paladin 2 and rogue 17/swashbuckler 3 builds, which can still fully abuse +10 or more to saves or damage respectively.

The second is to grant abilities early on, but have their power scale with (and thus be dependent on) class level (such as an Assassin's death attack, or a warblade's battle clarity). This does work very well, because for example, at higher levels having a DC 11+ death attack (as a 1st level Assassin) is essentially worthless; having a DC 20+ death attack (as a 10th level Assassin) might still be useful.
DM Denubis
05-24-07, 12:03 PM Assassin's death attack is pretty worthless unless you stack Intelligence gear, an Assassin's Dagger, and Ability Focus, and take the full ten levels. But if you do all that, it can get pretty reliable. Still, a three round period where you can't do anything isn't so awesome.

All in all, don't worry about your player cherry picking Death Attack. It's not worth it unless you really, really commit.
igotsmeakabob!!
05-25-07, 12:19 PM what does the assassin's dagger do?
Lotus Crane
05-25-07, 07:47 PM I believe it's a specific magic weapon in the DMG that increases the save DC of death attacks.
The Simbul
05-26-07, 05:28 PM Hi,

One of the key changes from 3.0 to 3.5 was to avoid key special abilities of the classes to be granted on the very first levels (like the Paladin's Divine Grace, for example, or a lot of spellcaster prestige classes that do not advance their spellcasting level in their first level), to avoid multiclass abuses (and I certainly agree with this). But this issue is still there with the Assassin's death attack, a very key special ability that is granted on the first level of the assassin prestige class!

As one of my PCs now wants to use (not clear if abuse) now this "gap", I want to know your opinion about this and if could be really a problem or not. What do you think?

Thanks!

Bloody.

PD: Sorry for my bad english.First and foremost, Prestige Classes are always considered an optional variant rule and are only available as a character option if the DM specifically chooses to use them in their campaign. This exception (fully covered in the DMG into to prestige classes, and the chapter as a whole) goes above and beyond the more general concept that all rules are effectively subject to a DM veto or augmentation. So if a prestige class appears to be a problem then the DM is under no obligation to allow it, or allow any other prestige class either. However, I can assure you that the Assassin is hardly any more problematic than a standard equal level Rogue, thus IMO there is no need to disallow it on those grounds.

Second, as noted before, the effectiveness of the Assassin death attack is based on the character's level in the Assassin class. Moreover, in addition to being preventable by all the myriad of conditions that can potentially prevent a sneak attack (depending on the circumstances, such as concealment, immunity to critical hits, uncanny dodge, blindfight, foresight, vitals out of reach, etc) a death attack also has its own qualifiers as well, specifically three rounds of undetected observation. In the time it takes an Assassin to deliver a death attack they probably could have killed the target outright with a standard sneak attack(s) and two further rounds of combat.

Lastly, the frontloading of prestige classes (such as the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight at level 1) is offset by the prerequisites you need to meet to enter the class to begin with. Nothing prevents a character from multiclassing into however many core classes they want (aside from a potential XP penalty), however each prestige class carries an abundance of feat or skill prerequisites which can restrict how many you can qualify for or simply restrict other elements of your character build (such as feat chains and other options).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bloody 05-23-07, 05:12 AM	Hi, One of the key changes from 3.0 to 3.5 was to avoid key special abilities of the classes to be granted on the very first levels (like the Paladin's Divine Grace, for example, or a lot of spellcaster prestige classes that do not advance their spellcasting level in their first level), to avoid multiclass abuses (and I certainly agree with this). But this issue is still there with the Assassin's death attack, a very key special ability that is granted on the first level of the assassin prestige class! As one of my PCs now wants to use (not clear if abuse) now this "gap", I want to know your opinion about this and if could be really a problem or not. What do you think? Thanks! Bloody. PD: Sorry for my bad english.
Gyrofthewastes 05-23-07, 08:35 AM	It's kind of what makes an assassin an assassin. Moreover, with a three round preparation time, I've never found it to be particularly abusive. In most cases if a PC wishes to use it they have to roleplay a set-up. Which, being the sort of thing I like to encourage as a DM (as opposed to slogging through straight combats), is just fine by me.
RobbyPants 05-23-07, 03:23 PM	One of the key changes from 3.0 to 3.5 was to avoid key special abilities of the classes to be granted on the very first levels (like the Paladin's Divine Grace, for example, or a lot of spellcaster prestige classes that do not advance their spellcasting level in their first level), to avoid multiclass abuses (and I certainly agree with this). But this issue is still there with the Assassin's death attack, a very key special ability that is granted on the first level of the assassin prestige class! Well, you're technically right in that any PC can dip one level into assassin and get Death Attack. However, remember that the DC for Death Attack scales with the assassin's class level (DC 10 + Assassin's class level + Int mod). Thus, if you dip in and back out, your DC for Death Attack will remain an abysmal 11 + Int mod. So, even if you're sitting at a DC 14 or 15, by the time you hit level 10 - 15, it will seldom work. What you're left with, is a sneak attack that takes three rounds to set up. :P Even a 10th level wizard can expect to make the save about 50% of the time.
Lotus Crane 05-24-07, 11:52 AM	There are basically two ways to prevent front-loading and dipping. The first, and still more exploitable way, is to simply delay the level at which an ability is gained at all (such as a paladin's divine grace, or a swashbuckler's insightful strike). Note however, that this does not do a very good job of discouraging sorcerer 18/paladin 2 and rogue 17/swashbuckler 3 builds, which can still fully abuse +10 or more to saves or damage respectively. The second is to grant abilities early on, but have their power scale with (and thus be dependent on) class level (such as an Assassin's death attack, or a warblade's battle clarity). This does work very well, because for example, at higher levels having a DC 11+ death attack (as a 1st level Assassin) is essentially worthless; having a DC 20+ death attack (as a 10th level Assassin) might still be useful.
DM Denubis 05-24-07, 12:03 PM	Assassin's death attack is pretty worthless unless you stack Intelligence gear, an Assassin's Dagger, and Ability Focus, and take the full ten levels. But if you do all that, it can get pretty reliable. Still, a three round period where you can't do anything isn't so awesome. All in all, don't worry about your player cherry picking Death Attack. It's not worth it unless you really, really commit.
igotsmeakabob!! 05-25-07, 12:19 PM	what does the assassin's dagger do?
Lotus Crane 05-25-07, 07:47 PM	I believe it's a specific magic weapon in the DMG that increases the save DC of death attacks.
The Simbul 05-26-07, 05:28 PM	Hi, One of the key changes from 3.0 to 3.5 was to avoid key special abilities of the classes to be granted on the very first levels (like the Paladin's Divine Grace, for example, or a lot of spellcaster prestige classes that do not advance their spellcasting level in their first level), to avoid multiclass abuses (and I certainly agree with this). But this issue is still there with the Assassin's death attack, a very key special ability that is granted on the first level of the assassin prestige class! As one of my PCs now wants to use (not clear if abuse) now this "gap", I want to know your opinion about this and if could be really a problem or not. What do you think? Thanks! Bloody. PD: Sorry for my bad english.First and foremost, Prestige Classes are always considered an optional variant rule and are only available as a character option if the DM specifically chooses to use them in their campaign. This exception (fully covered in the DMG into to prestige classes, and the chapter as a whole) goes above and beyond the more general concept that all rules are effectively subject to a DM veto or augmentation. So if a prestige class appears to be a problem then the DM is under no obligation to allow it, or allow any other prestige class either. However, I can assure you that the Assassin is hardly any more problematic than a standard equal level Rogue, thus IMO there is no need to disallow it on those grounds. Second, as noted before, the effectiveness of the Assassin death attack is based on the character's level in the Assassin class. Moreover, in addition to being preventable by all the myriad of conditions that can potentially prevent a sneak attack (depending on the circumstances, such as concealment, immunity to critical hits, uncanny dodge, blindfight, foresight, vitals out of reach, etc) a death attack also has its own qualifiers as well, specifically three rounds of undetected observation. In the time it takes an Assassin to deliver a death attack they probably could have killed the target outright with a standard sneak attack(s) and two further rounds of combat. Lastly, the frontloading of prestige classes (such as the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight at level 1) is offset by the prerequisites you need to meet to enter the class to begin with. Nothing prevents a character from multiclassing into however many core classes they want (aside from a potential XP penalty), however each prestige class carries an abundance of feat or skill prerequisites which can restrict how many you can qualify for or simply restrict other elements of your character build (such as feat chains and other options).