Post/Author/DateTime	Post
oloknotwise 06-27-07, 11:02 PM	My DM and I are trying to balance out the overpowered Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC, but as of now we are kind of stumped. That is why we look to the experts online. Basically, I am the primary spellcaster and healer in the group (Ranger/Dervish, Ranger/Sorcerer/Arcane Archer, Rogue/Shadowdancer and myself), so loosing any caster levels would be a bit of a pain in the ____. Otherwise, we are not entirely sure what to do. One idea I had was to have a 1/2/level BAB and a poor fortitude save progression. However, some input would be desired before any changes.
leftkeh 06-28-07, 06:13 AM	Since you are the main healer in the party, what aspect of the Servant's abilities annoys you? Do you tend to be involved in melee fights alot? Will you benefit from the new weapon proficiencies? If possible, please post some more details on your character and his role in your group.
Majick 06-28-07, 10:57 AM	I'd like to hear some reasons about why you think it's overpowered man. It's an awesome class, but by no means overpowered in my books
Einvaldurinn_mikli 06-28-07, 11:05 AM	I'd like to hear some reasons about why you think it's overpowered man. It's an awesome class, but by no means overpowered in my books Take Cleric(already an overpowered class) and add more Cleric. That's what the RSoP is and is also the reason why he is overpowered. It loses nothing and gains a whole crapload of things.
Aage 06-28-07, 11:20 AM	Take Cleric(already an overpowered class) and add more Cleric. That's what the RSoP is and is also the reason why he is overpowered. It loses nothing and gains a whole crapload of things. Which basically applies to every single PrC...
Saric 06-28-07, 11:43 AM	While roleplaying is not really a balancing factor, bear in mind that to be a radiant servant of pelor, one must be Neutral Good and must stick to it. If they become lawful good, or even chaotic good, Perhaps you should let them keep their spells yet lose the powers of the class until atoned or a change of thoughts. If you want to tinker more with this idea, make obligations and responsibilties with the church much in line with the actual class description. Meaning he might have to tend to the "flock" sometimes instead of adventuring unless a dire need is shown. Missionary work, Healing the sick, Combating undead, Offering counsel and advice to peasants, polishing a giant holy symbol in front of the church, etc. As for mecanically, a cleric does lose one thing when becoming a radiant servant. (d6) instead of (d8) for hd. And the class really isn't overpowered when you realize that the domain maximize, or supreme healing only apply to domain spells from the healing domain. A cleric of "pelor" should be uber in "Healing" and "Destroying Undead" since that is basically the core concept of Pelor's ethos. If I were you, I wouldn't try to nerf the class, I'd suggest you take a closer look at the cleric class and see why you would want to pick up this prc in the first place. You have nothing to look foward to. (let's see, the only cleric abilities you get is turn undead, aura of (Alignment dependant), and two domains. Oh yeah and spells.) "I'm glad i leveled up, what did i get this level? oh right, just another spell slot. What did the rougue get? Uncanny dodge and more sneak attack?" I suggest that you make the cleric class more interesting, and make the rsop pale in comparison. :) Ps: give sorcerers some love too, they suffer the same fate or worse.
RobbyPants 06-28-07, 11:52 AM	Take Cleric(already an overpowered class) and add more Cleric. That's what the RSoP is and is also the reason why he is overpowered. It loses nothing and gains a whole crapload of things. This is the problem with all full-casting-progression PrCs. With the exception of druid, the core classes don't lose much if you can take a full-casting PrC.
oloknotwise 06-28-07, 02:23 PM	Well, things have turned into a heated debate on what to do. He really wants to take out some caster levels, but since I am the only spellcaster in the ENTIRE group (except for our arcane archer who has only one level or sorcerer), a hit to spellcasting would be a problem. From what I got from him, he does not like the empowered healing and maximized healing. He has said that the PrC gets everything that a cleric gets and more, which is true, and the things are too powerful (he failed to realize that I took a hit die penalty). My role in the party is basically healing and casting. I have a decent AC, but I rarely find myself entering melee combat at at the first chance. Compared to the other PCs, I have the lowest hit rate (unless I cast Righteous Might). I have a VERY poor dex, and sneaking around (which turns out to be a large part of his campaigns) doesn't really work for me. As for turning undead, our DM does not like using undead because he finds them to be too much of a hassle for him to run. For the first six levels of the campaign, we have never once encountered an undead enemy, and even now that's pretty rare (I do not recall the last time I even used a turning attempt). Basically, I realize that in some areas, the RoSP is overpowered, but compared to the other PCs, I often find myself overshadowed or set to two (commonly one) role. A hit to BAB progression and loss of the martial weapon proficiency (why is that there in the first place?) would not be a great hindrance to me, but it limits my options when I enter combat. Any other suggestions?
Ander Spectacular 06-28-07, 03:20 PM	I'm not really sure what you think is overpowered. The empowered and maximized healing on works on your domain spell slot. Memorizing healing spells in that slot seriously weakens the traditional cleric. The ability does not give you the ability to empower/maximize all spells from you cast from the healing domain, only ones used as domain spells. -AS-
Magius_Rerecros 06-28-07, 08:44 PM	Which basically applies to every single PrC... Umm... no. Full-casting classes maybe, but definitely not all PrC's. For example, the True Necromancer. That PrC is like a half-dead camel with cancer or something.
Saric 06-28-07, 10:20 PM	Well, things have turned into a heated debate on what to do. He really wants to take out some caster levels, but since I am the only spellcaster in the ENTIRE group (except for our arcane archer who has only one level or sorcerer), a hit to spellcasting would be a problem. From what I got from him, he does not like the empowered healing and maximized healing. He has said that the PrC gets everything that a cleric gets and more, which is true, and the things are too powerful (he failed to realize that I took a hit die penalty). Any other suggestions? Getting a maximized heal in a "Domain slot" is not overpowered. Why? You can do almost the exact same thing with an armband of maximized healing 3/day from the magic item compendium. You can even use incense of meditation albeit it is more expensive to use frequently and have all your spells maximized. Its not like your damage spells are maximized, only your heals from your "domain" slots, and a cleric of pelor "should" be very good at healing! Considering average rolls, a cure critical wounds should give about 18 hp + caster level. A maximized one just ensures 32 hp. So if he is really being that nutty about 12 hp, then your dm is obviously being hard-headed about the class. I'll be honest with you, when I first saw the prc, I was much like your dm, proclaiming how overpowered the class was, etc etc. But in actual play, it really doesn't feel overpowered. Since the true op part of the class = the undead part.(and you said he doesn't use undead so it has no use for you for now.) The player who played the prc in my campaign didn't really outshine the rest of the party, except in magical darkness :P and fighting undead. (which is kind of funny that Magius_Rerecros mentioned true necromancer, since the true necro in that party overshadowed the full casting radiant servant of pelor by far.) Either way, if he still insists on "altering" the class here are some suggestions. The loss of martial weapon proficiency is a decent start. But lowering the bab will affect you probably in no way if you have divine power prepared, since you probably would have used it anyways even with a cleric's normal bab progression. maybe taking 1-3 levels out of the casting progression will satisfy him. I'd suggest 2, but at this point anything goes, as the butchering has already begun. Try putting more prerequsites to enter the class. Hope that helps.
navar100 06-28-07, 11:53 PM	Well, things have turned into a heated debate on what to do. He really wants to take out some caster levels, but since I am the only spellcaster in the ENTIRE group (except for our arcane archer who has only one level or sorcerer), a hit to spellcasting would be a problem. From what I got from him, he does not like the empowered healing and maximized healing. He has said that the PrC gets everything that a cleric gets and more, which is true, and the things are too powerful (he failed to realize that I took a hit die penalty). My role in the party is basically healing and casting. I have a decent AC, but I rarely find myself entering melee combat at at the first chance. Compared to the other PCs, I have the lowest hit rate (unless I cast Righteous Might). I have a VERY poor dex, and sneaking around (which turns out to be a large part of his campaigns) doesn't really work for me. As for turning undead, our DM does not like using undead because he finds them to be too much of a hassle for him to run. For the first six levels of the campaign, we have never once encountered an undead enemy, and even now that's pretty rare (I do not recall the last time I even used a turning attempt). Basically, I realize that in some areas, the RoSP is overpowered, but compared to the other PCs, I often find myself overshadowed or set to two (commonly one) role. A hit to BAB progression and loss of the martial weapon proficiency (why is that there in the first place?) would not be a great hindrance to me, but it limits my options when I enter combat. Any other suggestions? Does he realize you had to have memorized a Healing Domain spell in a Domain slot to be empowered or maximized? It's not just any Cure spell you cast that gets empowered/maximized. Do you even have Healing Domain? Also, why is it so upsetting for the party to heal up after a tough battle? He's allergic to PCs being durable?
Salla 06-28-07, 11:59 PM	While the class may not lose anything during its progression, its prerequisites are rather painful (at least to me). Only one alignment. No drifting. Only one deity. No options. Wasting 5 skill ranks on Heal. Wasting a feat on Extra Turning. Having to take the Sun domain to enter, and having to have the Healing domain to make use of your big power ... and the healing domain, simply put, sucks. It's probably a little above the curve, but really ... unless you really want to be SUPERHEALER or your DM absolutely loves undead, it's not all that and a bag of chips +2.
Radiant117 06-29-07, 09:25 AM	While the class may not lose anything during its progression, its prerequisites are rather painful (at least to me). Only one alignment: restricting, very convenient for your DM, because it ensures you won't turn evil if you get bored (which happens to me all the time and drives the DM crazy). Only one deity: since you are already playing a cleric of Pelor, it's not much of a restriction, except if you get bored and decide to worship Nerull. Healing Domain sucketh? See below. 5 Heal ranks: use it to monitor the condition (general woundedness) of your enemies as a free action. Very convenient, since deathwatch, the spell that does the same, is [Evil]. And it's of great help at lower levels, so even if you don't plan to max it out, you'll have this prereq covered at second level. Also, ask your DM on a case-by-case basis whether you can use it to identify de-buffs, diseases, curses and the like affecting physical abilities. Honestly, I don't see why people consider it useless. Same goes for Decipher Script for wizards. While magic takes care of magical writings and unknown languages, it takes a skill to decipher coded messages, and entrusting them to NPC sages is dangerous business. Extra Turning: ahem... Divine Metamagic? CoDzilla? Other stuff: Aura of Warding: allies within 10ft. are just asking for a nice area attack spell. Useful, but definitely not a game-breaker. Positive Energy Burst requires turning attempts, which would otherwise be spent on divinemetamagicing persistent spells. A balancing factor if there was one. Divine Health: good for you, but not much of a balance issue. Hit Die d6: somewhat hurts, asserting your role as a support/healing type character. HD and saves are balanced against each other, so to say. Fighter-types have high HDs, but low Ref saves and probably low touch AC. Rogues have low HDs, but good touch and high Refs, so it's supposed to even out. RSoP is a cleric with a rogue's HD, a fighter's susceptibility to damaging effects and MAD preventing you to put a high score in CON. That hurts. Your DM has a problem with that? He'd much rather you were a city-destroying abomination, as in "regular cleric"? For Pelor's sake, play one if he insists. Even a core cleric can break a campaign faster than the DM can pronounce "nightsticks". Seriously, it's the first time I hear about a DM objecting to someone who wants to play a healer. So head to CO boards and read the Cleric's Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=691564). Better still, show it to your DM. Maybe he'll acquire "some basic cognitive functions". If I were doing an undead campaign, I'd consider hitting the Fort save with the nerf stick while keeping the original 3/4 BAB. In a campaign with regular amounts of undead as per the DMG, the class is fine as it is. If you don't encounter undead, abuse Divine Metamagic! By the end of your adventure day, you should be out of your TA attempts! Your class features are to use them, not to just sit on your character sheet! Variant 1. Classic. Feats required: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell). Item: nightsticks (Libris Mortis). Note: this is uber-broken. Variant 2. The Healer. Feats: Domain Spontaneity (healing), Augment Healing. Use a turn undead attempt to convert a prepared spell into a domain spell. What use is it? Well, you couldn't spontaneously Mass Heal before. Now you can. And your cures are empowered/maximized by RSoP. (For cures, Empower is better, since it increases all points, not only the dice.) Not just whatever fits in your domain slots - every cure you cast with expending a turn attempt. Is the latter variant cheesy? As a matter of fact, no. Domain Spontaneity feat is powerful on its own. But DS(Healing) does not help your cure spells, which you can already cast spontaneously. RSoP makes this choice viable. Spontaneous Domain Casting alternative class feature (Healing) from PHII is even more powerful. It's not alternative to generic spontaneous healing, it's much better. One could even say "broken". If you find yourself out of spells but still having unused TA attempts, get Sacred Healing. Let the DM also consider that encounter levels are mostly based not on the danger that a monster presents, but the amount of resources (including HPs) that the party needs to defeat it. A powerful healer in the group lets the DM to make encounters slightly more powerful without disrupting game balance. Four PCs to one NPC of the same level doesn't sound very heroic. In conclusion: your DM should not mind if the group includes a powerful healer who enjoys his party role. Normally, an uber-character overshadows the party and detracts from the fun. An uber-healer enhances everyone's capabilities and adds to the fun. I use this number to google up my posts: 18577
bob_the_great 06-29-07, 06:57 PM	I am also going to repeat the fact that only domain slots get the free metamagics. I assume the DM doesn't realize this. Your two domains are dictated to you AND you have to use the slots on healing spells to make use of the free metamagics. I figure that, the feat spent on extra turning, and the d6 make it balanced for what you get. I guess you could always lower the class BAB to poor. Losing spellcasting levels just seems like the wrong way to go, and makes you better off being a straight cleric who worships pelor.
jogan 06-30-07, 10:58 AM	I really like the RSoP and play one at the moment. It does what IMO a cleric is supposed to do; heal really well and kick the poop out of undead. if you want to focus on that, and less "divinepower+righteousmight", I highly reccomend it. unbalanced? i dont really think so; once you re-read the part about empowered/healing spells (i know, i did a double take too), its really not that big a deal. and sure, you rock against undead, but unless you face undead every single session again, not that big a deal. perhaps it would be better if it had poor BAB (i thought it did actually) and a weaker fort save, but that kinda goes against the "fighter-of-undead" thing. personally, my favourite thing i've found playing an RSoP is the support, team-work and healing aspect it brought. i'm certainly no front liner, and contribute little/if-at-all to damage; but thats not my job. my job is keeping my fellow members from dying, and the RSoP lets me do that very well.
oloknotwise 06-30-07, 03:12 PM	The sad thing is, even though many people agree with me that the RSoP is pretty much fine as it is, especially considering my place within the party, my DM really has his heart set on seriously hindering the class. A 1/2 per level BAB or the similar is not enough for him. He really wants to take out more.
TheDanishCartoonist 07-01-07, 12:41 PM	Then stick with cleric or take a different PRC?
bob_the_great 07-01-07, 01:04 PM	The sad thing is, even though many people agree with me that the RSoP is pretty much fine as it is, especially considering my place within the party, my DM really has his heart set on seriously hindering the class. A 1/2 per level BAB or the similar is not enough for him. He really wants to take out more. Then play a cleric. Call yourself a Radiant Servant if you feel it like but don't give up caster levels because your DM is being unreasonable. Can you have him explain in detail what exactly is so overpowered about it?
jogan 07-01-07, 07:11 PM	from how you describe the guy, he seems really unwilling even give the PrC a chance. getting past this would be a major mile stone; see if he'll let you play as an RSoP for 2 sessions, and see how it pans out. if by the end of it, he still feels like its waaaaay overpowered, revert back to a regular cleric. in this scenario, you've both agreed a compromise, and to test the theory that "the RSoP is unbalanced". i dont think the issue here is the RSoP.
Salla 07-01-07, 07:25 PM	The Empower/Maximize/Supreme healing abilities ONLY WORK ON SPELLS PREPARED IN DOMAIN SLOTS. Domain Spontaneity does not work.
oloknotwise 07-02-07, 08:13 PM	Nothing seems to be getting through to my DM on this PrC. I have decided to just continue as a straight Cleric and hopefully find another PrC that will suit his desires (the only PrC appreved for my character to this date is the Heirophant from the DMG). Otherwise, I can choose to follow a roleplaying experience by roleplaying an impossible Code of Conduct (based on Pelor's ideas) that pretty much would make me loose my powers off that bat. The idea was to not perform chaotic or lawful actions. Treat things like a Paladin would, and any chaotic actions would make me loose my powers. The only problem is that the other players are all chaotic (CG Ranger/Dervish, CN Ranger/Arcane Archer and CN Rogue/Shadowdancer). They like to sneak around and do things without order (in which sometime I put up the idea that not everything requires chaotic actions, but might be more effective if done with a lawful action). He told me that if I continue to follow the group with what they do, I would loose my powers. I shall just stick to Cleric.
Kellus 07-03-07, 12:06 PM	Hey, I'm in this campaign as well, and I'm talking to the DM that you guys are busy ragging on right now. One thing that oloknotwise failed to mention so far as I can tell is that we've already given the prestige class a shot. He's currently a 4th level Radiant Servant of Pelor, and we've had plenty of time to look at how the class works. The simple fact is that in our experience, in this campaign, the RSoP is too powerful, in that it gets every cleric class feature and many add-ons besides. Despite how the class looks, how it might play in other circumstances, in our campaign the class is too powerful. As far as I can tell, the DM is being very generous. He's been trying to find a solution that will allow oloknotwise to be able to continue to play this class. Instead of simply nerfing the class, the class features, the BAB, the saves, or anything else, he's suggested a roleplaying solution which seems fairly reasonable. In essence, as indicated by the requirements, the Radiant Servant is the most zealous worshipper of Pelor that there is, hence why he gives extra power to him. Thus, our DM has suggested that he roleplay being NG the same way that a paladin would roleplay being LG. That is, focusing on alignment in all ways, and expounding neutralness and goodness as a paladin upholds law and good. Despite what our friend might say, our DM is not trying to destroy him, arbitrarily cause him to lose his powers or otherwise unfairly destroy his abilities by forcing him to follow an "impossible" code of conduct. In the game, the Radiant Servant is the most blessed of Pelor's followers, and thus should be held to a higher standard as far as his actions go. Just thought I'd post this, since the story here seems to be a little one-sided and after most people have been unfairly bashing our DM.
oloknotwise 07-03-07, 10:55 PM	Kel, I think you fail to realize the actual things that are occuring. Even though I am a fourth level RSoP, there has yet to be a time where my abilities have been overpowered. To think of it, we have yet to even meet an undead encounter since I took the class, and I have only used my Empowered Healing ability twice. THe radiance ability never has come up, since the only spell to date that it really made a difference would be on light. Like I said, you guys have provided me with absolutely no argument as to why the RSoP is overpowered. In comparison to the rest of the group, it does get everything that the Cleric gets and more because unlike teh rangers/rogues within the party, I have no other abilities to give up. I don't get sneak attack, animal companions or trap sense. I get spellcasting, and therefore that is important to me as the ONLY spellcaster in the group. Plus, I do not think that our DM really explained to you what the details of the roleplaying were. They were VERY strict and nearly impossible to pull off in the group. If there was a lawful character, then it would be easier because I can be the middle-man, the neutral party. But, since there are no lawful characters, my opposing actions are deemed to be too lawful, and therefore I would loose my powers. Besides, there was never any problem when the DM looked over the class in the first place. Somehow (possibly by Kel, who happens to love the spotlight and tries to be in it most of the time anyways) the DM discovered he had a problem, despite the fact that my abilities have never really come up within the campaign. All that I ask is to first provide me with an example from the campaign where my abilities have been overpowering. And yet, there is not example. Most of my most best events as a RSoP can be just as easily performed by a Cleric because it does not include any of my RSoP abilities. If the rest of the party finds my abilities overpowering, how come none of the other players have mentioned anything? I find it rather insulting that another PC,who greatly relies on my healing spells and buff spells, would state that I am too powerful for the rest of the campaign.
jogan 07-04-07, 01:21 AM	1) The idea was to not perform chaotic or lawful actions. How does one do this???? Especially considering the "good" aspect of the NG alignment. Kel talks about upholding "neutral and goodness" the way a paladin does; how does one "uphold neutralness"??? 2) "you guys are ragging on" "ragging on"; most people on here have offered their opinions from their own experiences. to disagree is not to disrespect. 3) "as far as i can tell, the dm is being generous" from what we have heard, he has tried to impose roleplaying restrictions upon a class (which no one else in your party seems to have applied to them) in order to maintain balance, whilst stating that the player would certainly loose his powers if he continued to follow the party. this is generous??? 4) "simple fact is that in our experience, in this campaign, the RSoP is too powerful, in that it gets every cleric class feature and many add-ons besides." a) so does any, full-level-casting prestige class. b) this statement does not highlight your experience, merely the mechanics of the class c) are you telling us that there was an occasion where the RSoP was "so good" at healing that you all survived an encounter? isnt this the point? kel, i must admit, hearing a party member complain about being healed too much is a first for me. oloknotwise has taken the support/heal role, and you've verbally spanked him for it. to me, it seems akin to having a major illness and punching your doctor in the face when he gets rid of it. oloknotwise, my advice to you; in a chaotic party, play a cleric of kord with strength and luck domain. no danger of loosing your powers, and you get to heal your party. should you want to.
Navigator 07-04-07, 03:11 AM	RSoP overpowered in a campaign without undead? I can't even comment on this without being rude. As a DM, I would be very pleased if someone even wanted to play a cleric, and elated to have a PC play a cleric focused on healing. I still fail to see the source of this "unbalance". Are you healing too much? Is the DM unable to take down one of the PCs because of your empowered cure spells? Maybe one of the other characters is "unbalanced", and you are healing him too much? If the "unbalancing" factor is that the RSoP actually gets class abilities, where the cleric doesn't, that's just ridiculous. You pay for those class abilities by choosing a specific alignment and deity, dumping a feat, having both your domains already picked for you (one of which is awful), and to top it all off, to use your best class features (aside from relentlessly turning undead to dust), you need to prepare spells that you can cast spontaneously and miss out on other domain spells. If you really, really need to compromise with that, offer to have your empower and maximize abilities usuable only once a day. Or is being able to cast daylight the problem? If the DM continues to refuse to make the class playable, tell him that you will continue playing if he allows you to rebuild. As a side note, that Kel guy definately just created an account here to come on and yell at you, which doesn't look too good. The last thing I'd want to do is make the party cleric angry with me.
Majick 07-04-07, 03:26 AM	Radient Servant is one of the better PrC's out there simple because it keeps players alive longer. Everyone loves you, and if you like to be loved, you got it made. Anyone who says "Your just a bandaid" can go without your help for a while and suddenly realise s/he is hovering on near death pretty much 24/7 at higher levels ;) As for overpowered, have you even looked at many of the other spellcasting prestige classes out there man? Seriously. Essentially anything that give full arcane caster progression is a million times better than a straight mage, because prestige classes ALWAYS give extra goodies a straight class won't get, especially for full casters. Cleric loses what, sometimes turning progression in certain PrC's? Wizard loses what, familiar progression or maybe a free feat every so often? Boo-freakin-hoo If you wanna nerf the Radient Servant, nerf every other prestige class as well that give full casting progression :eek: p.s. this guy is the ONLY caster in the party? Dude, holy god, keep the casting progression, they don't just want you to be a better healer, the FREAKIN' NEED IT
glamer_wolf 07-04-07, 12:44 PM	Well you do not get something for nothing, as I read the description. Although RSoP and Cleric levels stack for the purpose of spells per day and turning, RSoP levels do not grant other bonuses to your caster level. All the cure spells adds caster level as bonus, so a cleric 6/RSoP 5 casting cure moderate wounds would only get 2d8+7 (with healing domain) where a cleric 11 would get 2d8+12. This means that all non-domain slot heals, including spontaneously casted heals, will actually be WORSE with RSoP. Assuming I read the description right in Complete Divine. To compensate for the less powerful cures, heal spells in your domain slots become much more powerful (empowered and/or maximised). In addition your turning imporves quite a bit. PROs: Better turning Better healing from domain slots (but only if you choose healing domain) Immune to diseases and some other random bonuses Good roleplaying possibilities (have to stop and help/bless sick and poor people when in a city, for instance). CONs: Worse normal/spontaneous healing Have to choose Sun domain (and pretty much forced to take healing as well) Less flexibility in alignment/behaviour. Less flexibility in your choice of spell slots (normal Clerics don't need to worry about heal spells, you do). I think the class is balanced.
oloknotwise 07-04-07, 03:08 PM	I have to post this to everyone else becuase this is really making me mad. I was discussing the class and the problems with it on Facebook with Kel. He is swaying towards backing up the DM (who is his brother). Except, I managed to get the exact reasoning behind the DM's desire to balance the class from Kel, not the DM. I will quote it for you: At 10th level, you now can get 5 spells a day that are empowered (or are you at maximized yet?). Often in a day, this is all the healing we require. Certainly by the time we get to 20th level, with your 9 Empowered and Maximized spells a day, that will almost certainly be all the healing we use in a day. Thus, despite what you may say about the domain restriction, this feature will apply to almost all of your healing in a day. Imagine this from teh DM's perspective. How can he possibly challenge us if you have such incredible healing? What can he throw at us that we have a chance in heck of beating that would actually strain our healing resources. There's nothing. Your other main complaint is that there are almost no undead in this campaign, which makes some parts of the Radiant Servant useless. To this I disagree. The DM was wary before of sending undead at you, since he knew that you could turn or destroy them easily, ending an encounter very quickly. Think of it as a coup de gras. How much fun was that? How much more wary will he be now, with your extra greater turnings and other abilities? I am really beginning feel like I do not want to play in the campaign anymore because the DM has such a problem with me filling my roles within the party effectively.
glamer_wolf 07-04-07, 04:40 PM	I have to post this to everyone else becuase this is really making me mad. I was discussing the class and the problems with it on Facebook with Kel. He is swaying towards backing up the DM (who is his brother). Except, I managed to get the exact reasoning behind the DM's desire to balance the class from Kel, not the DM. I will quote it for you: I am really beginning feel like I do not want to play in the campaign anymore because the DM has such a problem with me filling my roles within the party effectively. If 5 cures/day is all you need, I would say that it is the other classes that are overpowered because it certainly isn't the fact that the spell is empowered that is keeping your team alive. If you plow through the encounters with such ease, it is my guess that the CR is too low. And Kel is actually disproving his own point: Since you are obviously nowhere near pressed for healing, and there are no undeads, you really gain nothing from this PrC. But you lose out on hit points, and you lose power on your spells, many of which gain power from Cleric level (not RSoP level). This includes duration of Bull's Strength and damage from Searing Light. Yes, RSoP is definitely not an all-powerful class. It does incrase the amount you can heal in a single round, but I think that it may lower the amount you can heal in a day (a lot of spell slots from which prepared or potential, spontaneous cures will lose power). I haven't got time to work all the numbers. And by all means, if you aren't having fun with the class you are forced to play, drop out of the campign. This is all about having fun.
Navigator 07-04-07, 05:50 PM	Often in a day, this is all the healing we require. Certainly by the time we get to 20th level, with your 9 Empowered and Maximized spells a day, that will almost certainly be all the healing we use in a day. You're worried about your PC throwing a maximized cure serious wounds at 20th level? You should be much more concerned about how much diamond dust exists in your world because most challenging encounters after 17th level will likely leave one of the PCs dead, regardless of how much hp the cleric can heal. Imagine this from teh DM's perspective. How can he possibly challenge us if you have such incredible healing? What can he throw at us that we have a chance in heck of beating that would actually strain our healing resources. There's nothing. Here. I'll give your DM a list. Poisons Save or die effects Save or suck effects Quells (Libris Mortis I think...) enervation Terrain effects that require balance checks (cleric fall down) Enemies that are not easily engaged in melee BBEG that decides to jump the cleric first wall of stone Enemy counterspell specialist Enemy casters Tanglefoot bags to keep cleric in place High-AC melee monsters ... As far as I'm concerned, if a PC cleric is able to get all the healing done with 5 spells, and actually use the rest of spells available to him (you know, the ones that don't restore hp), he's doing an awesome job, and probably having fun, too. Don't ruin that. There is much, much more to the game than how much damage you can deal. I really hope the DM in question never runs for a Wizard that knows what they're doing.
Axiomatic_vampire 07-04-07, 10:40 PM	Well you do not get something for nothing, as I read the description. Although RSoP and Cleric levels stack for the purpose of spells per day and turning, RSoP levels do not grant other bonuses to your caster level. All the cure spells adds caster level as bonus, so a cleric 6/RSoP 5 casting cure moderate wounds would only get 2d8+7 (with healing domain) where a cleric 11 would get 2d8+12. I think the class is balanced. That's an interesting take on RAW. I don't think DM's in general treat "+1 to existing diving spellcasting class" like that though. +1 to your spellcasting class means exactly that. You're a caster one level higher. The examples of things you don't get are wild shape improvement and turning. Not caster level.
windscar18 07-04-07, 10:48 PM	oloknotwise, do you mind telling me your facebook? I want to see EXACTLY what his arguments are.
Axiomatic_vampire 07-04-07, 11:15 PM	And while I'm in here, I'll go on record. Played a RSoP from 1 to 18. It's a prestige class that doesn't really feel that much different than a cleric EXCEPT against undead, where it's way powerful. Even the maxed/empowered heals weren't that big a deal, they were just nice. Losing a useful domain hurt, the metamagic-healing healed the hurt, came out about even. Losing the hp hurt, getting a bonus domain made up for it, came out about even. I never used my new, neat martial weapons, did make use of some celestial brilliance (RSoP gravy), got some mileage out of greater turning, but the DM knew it was going to happen and planned accordingly. Give the RSoP some poppable undead, because it doesn't make sense for equal HD undead to just disappear from the world, but then give them some backup to make a game of it. If you want a BBEG lich or vampire, their natural turn resistence goes a long way, and a turn resistence item eliminates turning as an option. It just isn't that big a deal. Gotta remember that a cleric does the bulk of their healing out of battle. Jacked up domain cures aren't really a better option than a wand. In battle, the times it comes up, you want heal or mass heal, not anything with the word "cure" in it. Not by the time you're high enough level to get those maximised domain spells anyway.
danielinthewolvesden 07-05-07, 03:07 AM	Take Cleric(already an overpowered class) and add more Cleric. That's what the RSoP is and is also the reason why he is overpowered. It loses nothing and gains a whole crapload of things. Yes, but it only gets better at doing TWO things: Turning Undead and Healing. Turning Undead is rare and sub-optimal, and Healing is no big deal. AND you are forced into two of the least popular/powerful Domains. eh. Now, if it was a campaign super heavy on Undead, it might make me think. Otherwise, it is fine.
glamer_wolf 07-05-07, 11:49 AM	That's an interesting take on RAW. I don't think DM's in general treat "+1 to existing diving spellcasting class" like that though. +1 to your spellcasting class means exactly that. You're a caster one level higher. The examples of things you don't get are wild shape improvement and turning. Not caster level. Well, that is another way way to read it. I think context is important and "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class" is ONLY found in a column labeled "Spells per Day". Looking at the text of the class, it only explicitely say that the caster levels combines for purpose of spells per day (in the section "Spells per Day / Spells Known") and turning (in the section "Turn Undead") Nowhere does it say that a level of RSoP counts a a caster level for purposes other than spells per day. It does explicitely say that it does NOT count as a level of the existing divine class otherwise, but then somewhat confusingly only mentions class features as excluded, not spell power. I don't know, I usually don't mess with prestige classes.
El_Machinae 07-05-07, 09:33 PM	In a "cheese" reading (text trumping table), the text says that you can add caster levels to whatever class you were before (meaning, you could add it to arcane OR divine casting). The table clearly contradicts this, and probably RAI trumps this too. But it's a neat little bit of rules-lawyering. Funnily, I wouldn't even take the Healing Domain even with the boost the RSoP gets to it.
strenoth 07-05-07, 09:51 PM	um, if youa re increasing spell levels/known/slots perday, that includes the casting level of the spells automatically. it's part of increasing yrou spellcasting level. One package.
oloknotwise 07-05-07, 10:21 PM	In terms of "+1 to caster level" or the such (I am too lazy right now to look it up), our group has agreed on that the class adds to the previous caster level of the base class. Therefore, a Wizard 6/Master Specialist 8 (Complete Mage, really good PrC when you lack other options) would have an effective caster level of 14 and have the same spells per day as a 14th level wizard. At least that is what we agreed on. A player who relies in spells that uses caster levels to determine a spell's power would never take a PrC is the caster level did not increase with the PrC. Anyways, my DM called me today and explained himself and his motives behind his desires to change the RSoP. I was basically dubbed as "too good at healing". Wow do I ever feel degraded.
Staple 07-05-07, 10:24 PM	And the class really isn't overpowered when you realize that the domain maximize, or supreme healing only apply to domain spells from the healing domain. Funny thing with that. Obviously, this is a DM call, but there's a substitution in Player's Handbook II that lets you give up the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells in exchange to spontaneously cast spells from 1 chosen domain. Setting that substitution to the Healing Domain lets you spontaneously cast Domain Spells from the Healing Domain any time you want, picking up the free metamagic from Radiant Servant. Like I said, a DM call, but everyone around my neck of the woods allows it (I've allowed it myself). Of course, we're a bunch of powergamers around here. As for balancing the class, the first thing I'd kick is martial weapon proficiency. Pelor's signature weapon is a mace, which clerics are already proficient with. There's no reason for Radiant Servants to gain proficiency with martial weapons, from a game balance or thematic perspective.
MikeN 07-05-07, 10:28 PM	So let me get this straight... You're the only full caster in a group, and you think the [B]PrC[\B] is overpowered :eek: Riiiight....
oloknotwise 07-05-07, 11:30 PM	So let me get this straight... You're the only full caster in a group, and you think the [B]PrC[\B] is overpowered :eek: Riiiight.... I think the RSoP is perfectly fine the way it is. Both the DM and Kel (the other player who has posted on this board) find the class to be too powerful for the campaign. We have never seen the RSoP really in action, but yet they say the class is overpowered. Well, Kel is being kind of weird. He has told me many times that the class is perfectly fine, but a day later for no reason he posts a message on this board saying that the class is overpowered. I really can't trust what he says anymore because he has contradicted himself so many times.
navar100 07-06-07, 02:49 AM	Anyways, my DM called me today and explained himself and his motives behind his desires to change the RSoP. I was basically dubbed as "too good at healing". Wow do I ever feel degraded. Aww, is the poor little DM having a hard time killing the party?
Tytalus 07-06-07, 03:23 AM	Funny thing with that. Obviously, this is a DM call, but there's a substitution in Player's Handbook II that lets you give up the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells in exchange to spontaneously cast spells from 1 chosen domain. Setting that substitution to the Healing Domain lets you spontaneously cast Domain Spells from the Healing Domain any time you want, picking up the free metamagic from Radiant Servant. Not by RAW. The metamagics explicitly apply to spells prepared in the domain slot (as has been pointed out on this very thread before). Allowing it to apply to spells cast via Domain Spontaneity is house ruling.
Kaurus 07-07-07, 10:30 AM	Your Problem is making me LOL (well the people in your group make me laugh even harder) Get in contact with RainerNader http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=878581 Do not swap groups but get his build and play a Cleric of Kord and do not heal for a few sessions (I think your party can mitigate damage very good so maybe they need this extra thrill). Or just play someone who canīt heal, but see to it that you can heal yourself (healbot cohort or potions) maybe a Babarian would be kicking ass and you could just find out if Kels problem really is wanting the spotlight for his character (Babarians kill very badly as far as my experienced it [and can not be Sneak Attacked ;) in case someone should start inqroup fights]). And even better: a Babarian would still have way better chances against undead and constructs (get a greatclub in addition to your Greataxe) then the rouges :evillaugh and is non lawfull or even chaotic and would fit into your groups behaviour very good :) Then somebody else can see to it that your group has someone who knows something about magic and can fix up nasty wounds. And your DM not beeing able to stage dangerous encounters ? OMG ! And this "you could turn them, thatīs the reason that I do not stage undead", did your group ever encounter any "non-constructs" ? I think it is always very annoying for a DM that living creatures get Sneak Attacked as many times as possible and are dead very quickly after the encounter started . . . .
Blank_the_Bard 07-07-07, 12:32 PM	You know, I played a cleric who went all the way up in RSoP and the DM even ruled that I could use Domain Spont to get the Maximize/Empower effect on pretty much any healing spell I wanted. Even with this rather loose and powerful interpretation of the rules, I was still flinging out revivifies (spell that lets you bring the dead back to life within one round of their death) restorations, deathwards, and other such spells like crazy. I often completely ran out of spells before the day was over. The fact of the matter is, we never fought things outside of the recommended CR, but we were still challenged by the encounters. If you're only using five healing spells per day, the DM isn't challenging the group enough and that's his problem, not yours. RSoP is hardly overpowered under a strict interpretation of the rules. After all, even a maximized, empowered cure critical wounds won't fix a Power Word: Kill trap, or a failed save on a maximized, empowered cone of cold.
Enchanter_Tom 07-20-07, 02:51 AM	This thread causes me pain. 1. PrC levels that give +1 caster levels not stacking with normal caster levels. If you believe this, then you need to re-read the DMG. 2. The RSoP gets something for nothing. Erroneous. He loses a point of BAB, spends a feat, loses skill ranks, has his domains set in stone, and has fairly strict RP requirements--roleplaying neutral, in my opinion, is one of the hardest things to do. 3. "Nine maximized/empowered healings per day"--that assumes that the RSoP is spending all his domain slots on healing, especially his sixth-level slot (heal, which benefits in no way from those effects). Domain slots = valuable, very valuable. The RSoP is a walking bandage that destroys undead. That's what he is. It's not overpowered because undead are not a staple of encounters, save for certain settings, and who cares? They're undead. Turning them is hard enough, what with the high HD-to-CR ratio.