Bard / Paladin prestige class... Yes, I know it's insane... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard / Paladin prestige class... Yes, I know it's insane... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Crimson_Concerto
12-06-07, 07:34 PM Yes, yes, it's a weird combination that shouldn't exist. I know. I don't want to talk about why I need to make this, but I do, so may we please skip the "that makes no sense" and just tell me whether the class is balanced, etc. please? :D

It's VERY simple, likely TOO simple, but here we go:

REQUIREMENTS:
Feats: Devoted Performer (Complete Adventurer)
Special: 5 levels of Paladin, 5 levels of Bard

HIT DIE: D8

BAB: Average (3/4)
FORT: Poor
REFLEX: Poor
WILL: Good

CLASS SKILLS: Concentration (CON), Craft (INT), Diplomacy (CHA), Handle Animal (CHA), Heal (WIS), Knowledge (INT) (all skills, taken individually), Perform (CHA), Profession (WIS), Ride (DEX), Sense Motive (WIS), Spellcraft (INT), and Use Magic Device (CHA).
SKILL POINTS: 4 + INT

CLASS FEATURES:

Spells per Day / Spells Known: When a new level of this prestige class is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in both Bard and Paladin. They do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

Devoted Performer Synergy (Ex): Levels of this prestige class count both as levels of Bard and Paladin for purposes of determining the benefits of your Devoted Performer feat.

Special Mount: A member of this prestige class adds its levels in this prestige class to its effective Paladin level to determine the capabilities of his Special Mount.

Bardic Music: A member of this prestige class adds its levels in this prestige class to its effective Bard level to determine the Bardic Music abilities it knows.

Obligatory Multi-Class Note: Paladins who become a member of this prestige class may continue advancing as a Paladin.

(YES, THIS PRESTIGE CLASS IS 10 LEVELS LONG)

Okay, yes, I know prerequisites usually don't specify classes, but that's what it's going to be used for in this case, and this case is the only one that matters to me, so there we go. Yes, it seems like it gets more than what a character should, but I figured it would probably work like Mystic Theurge: seems like it gets more than it should, but when you think about what you have to give up to take it, it really doesn't...

Anyways, have at it... I can already imagine the negative reaction, but let's keep it to constructive criticism please? :)

EDIT: Changes from original -
Heal and Spellcraft as Class Skills
Progresses BOTH Bard and Paladin casting
Jaxgaret
12-06-07, 10:08 PM Karossii recently posted an awesome trio of Bardadin PrCs.

Check it out here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=949442).
Crimson_Concerto
12-06-07, 11:07 PM Karossii recently posted an awesome trio of Bardadin PrCs.

Check it out here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=949442).

Yes, that's very nice (no, really, it's very nice!), and I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but I really was just hoping for feedback on my own interpretation for now. This other class will certainly be taken into consideration, of course, but I was hoping to experiment with something that had fewer unique class features (aka no unique class features) if only because I like simplicity.
Jaxgaret
12-06-07, 11:22 PM Yes, that's very nice (no, really, it's very nice!), and I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but I really was just hoping for feedback on my own interpretation for now. This other class will certainly be taken into consideration, of course, but I was hoping to experiment with something that had fewer unique class features (aka no unique class features) if only because I like simplicity.

Okay, if you wish. I just happen to really like karossii's interpretation of it, and I know that he/she put a lot of work into making it and revising it with other posters' help.

REQUIREMENTS:
Feats: Devoted Performer (Complete Adventurer)
Special: 5 levels of Paladin, 5 levels of Bard

The Special requirement is both unprecedented and limiting. Do you know of any other classes that require an exact number of levels in a specific class?

HIT DIE: D8

BAB: Average (3/4)
FORT: Poor
REFLEX: Poor
WILL: Good

Okay, so this class will be less of a frontliner, and more of a support character, as you have designated by your selection of the lower BAB progression and the poor Fort save. Right?

CLASS SKILLS: Concentration (CON), Craft (INT), Diplomacy (CHA), Handle Animal (CHA), Knowledge (INT) (all skills, taken individually), Perform (CHA), Profession (WIS), Ride (DEX), Sense Motive (WIS), and Use Magic Device (CHA).
SKILL POINTS: 4 + INT

That's an awfully small list of class skills, no?

CLASS FEATURES:

Spells per Day / Spells Known: When a new level of this prestige class is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in either Bard or Paladin (player's choice). They do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

You might as well have said "+1 Bard spellcasting at every level", because no one is going to advance the Paladin's spell progression; Bard casting is much more powerful than Paladin casting, so you should change this if you ever want this class to advance Paladin casting.

Devoted Performer Synergy (Ex): Levels of this prestige class count both as levels of Bard and Paladin for purposes of determining the benefits of your Devoted Performer feat.

Okay.

Special Mount: A member of this prestige class adds its levels in this prestige class to its effective Paladin level to determine the capabilities of his Special Mount.

What about a Bard-Paladin makes you think "Special Mount"? Is that something that you envision being integral to the hybrid?

Bardic Music: A member of this prestige class adds its levels in this prestige class to its effective Bard level to determine the Bardic Music abilities it knows.

Obligatory Multi-Class Note: Paladins who become a member of this prestige class may continue advancing as a Paladin.

Okay.

(YES, THIS PRESTIGE CLASS IS 10 LEVELS LONG)

It seems to get very few class abilities for those 10 levels. Why am I taking this class?

Okay, yes, I know prerequisites usually don't specify classes, but that's what it's going to be used for in this case, and this case is the only one that matters to me, so there we go.

Well okay then mr. fancy pants.

Yes, it seems like it gets more than what a character should, but I figured it would probably work like Mystic Theurge: seems like it gets more than it should, but when you think about what you have to give up to take it, it really doesn't...

It's exactly like the Mystic Theurge in this regard, except even more underpowered.

Anyways, have at it... I can already imagine the negative reaction, but let's keep it to constructive criticism please? :)

I didn't really want to rip into your class, but you asked for it :)
bkdubs123
12-06-07, 11:52 PM Give it bonus feats every three levels. That should help it out immensely. Oh, and progress both spellcasting halves. The prerequisites are high enough to warrant the boost to both (Mystic Theurge, Fochlucan Lyrist, bla, bla).

The thing with this is, you might as well actually take the Mystic Theurge PrC this is so simple, and its pretty much on the same power level. You lose spellcasting progression and MUST be a Bard/Paladin to gain some BAB, better HD, and some skills/skill points. Bonus feats will as I said, help this class tremendously and keep it simple. You should probably add a capstone effect as well since there's no real reason to take it past 9th level with the bonus feats. Oh, and of course make the bonus feat list things that can only help Bards, Paladins, or Bardadins (there are actually quite a few feats for them in various supplements).
Crimson_Concerto
12-06-07, 11:57 PM Okay, if you wish. I just happen to really like karossii's interpretation of it, and I know that he/she put a lot of work into making it and revising it with other posters' help.And you can best believe I AM very much looking at and considering karossii's interpretation. :)

The Special requirement is both unprecedented and limiting. Do you know of any other classes that require an exact number of levels in a specific class?Yes, I'm aware of this, and I was going to instead require the Special Mount class feature, the Bardic Music class feature, and some ranks in perform or arcane casting ability, but I figured I'd avoid beating around the bush...

Okay, so this class will be less of a frontliner, and more of a support character, as you have designated by your selection of the lower BAB progression and the poor Fort save. Right?Not necessarely. The Knight has poor Fortitude, and it's a frontliner class. As for the BAB, the Psychic Warrior is a frontliner class, and it has medium BAB as well. However, yes, because this IS supposed to be half bard, it will probably be slightly less frontline and lightly more support, but I think that's more up to the person playing it. I don't think I want to pigeonhole it either way...
Would you prefer I gave the class good BAB and all good saves? :)

That's an awfully small list of class skills, no?Fair enough. I could consider adding... let's see, Heal and Spellcraft definitely... What else do you suggest?

You might as well have said "+1 Bard spellcasting at every level", because no one is going to advance the Paladin's spell progression; Bard casting is much more powerful than Paladin casting, so you should change this if you ever want this class to advance Paladin casting.Well the other possibilities I was considering was just to have it advance both Bard and Paladin spellcasting, and given your later assessment that the class is underpowered, I just might do that. Would this be more acceptable?

What about a Bard-Paladin makes you think "Special Mount"? Is that something that you envision being integral to the hybrid?Well, the way I see it the Paladin's two main class features are Smite Evil and the Special Mount, and the Bards are Barding Music and its spellcasting progression... perhaps also Bardic Knowledge? How do you feel about adding some progression for that? Devoted Performer half-improves Smite Evil, though I could also easily consider granting more uses per day of that.

Okay.Oh, awesome, one part actually works. :P

It seems to get very few class abilities for those 10 levels. Why am I taking this class?Same reason you'd take Mystic Theurge, I guess. You can't get this particular combination of class features otherwise. Just because I don't grant anything in particular past first level doesn't mean you get nothing. It's just that the stuff you get is a result of stacking levels, so it needs not be all clearly spelled out in the class.

Well okay then mr. fancy pants.Would you like to suggest prerequisites that don't allow this class to be used for anything other than intended? Requiring Special Mount denotes Paladin 5, but it's a bit more complex to denote Bard 5. I could, say, require the Bardic Music class feature and 2nd level arcane casting, but then one could take a level dip of bard and then go sorcerer or something to make it some weird gish, which isn't what was intended. Again, any particular suggestion?

It's exactly like the Mystic Theurge in this regard, except even more underpowered.Well in which of the above ways I've considered would you recommend I improve it? Good BAB? All good saves? Both Paladin and Bard casting? Smite per day and Bardic Knowledge improvement? Extra class skills?

I didn't really want to rip into your class, but you asked for it :)Please, it's not like I expected it to be perfect. I actually prefer when more knowledgeable people give me some constructive criticism, though I will admit I prefer it when they actually suggest some ideas for improvement in addition to saying what's wrong. ;)

EDIT: OOH! What about some more Turn Undead or Lay on Hands progression? Just popped into mind... Hmm...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crimson_Concerto 12-06-07, 07:34 PM	Yes, yes, it's a weird combination that shouldn't exist. I know. I don't want to talk about why I need to make this, but I do, so may we please skip the "that makes no sense" and just tell me whether the class is balanced, etc. please? :D It's VERY simple, likely TOO simple, but here we go: REQUIREMENTS: Feats: Devoted Performer (Complete Adventurer) Special: 5 levels of Paladin, 5 levels of Bard HIT DIE: D8 BAB: Average (3/4) FORT: Poor REFLEX: Poor WILL: Good CLASS SKILLS: Concentration (CON), Craft (INT), Diplomacy (CHA), Handle Animal (CHA), Heal (WIS), Knowledge (INT) (all skills, taken individually), Perform (CHA), Profession (WIS), Ride (DEX), Sense Motive (WIS), Spellcraft (INT), and Use Magic Device (CHA). SKILL POINTS: 4 + INT CLASS FEATURES: Spells per Day / Spells Known: When a new level of this prestige class is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in both Bard and Paladin. They do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. Devoted Performer Synergy (Ex): Levels of this prestige class count both as levels of Bard and Paladin for purposes of determining the benefits of your Devoted Performer feat. Special Mount: A member of this prestige class adds its levels in this prestige class to its effective Paladin level to determine the capabilities of his Special Mount. Bardic Music: A member of this prestige class adds its levels in this prestige class to its effective Bard level to determine the Bardic Music abilities it knows. Obligatory Multi-Class Note: Paladins who become a member of this prestige class may continue advancing as a Paladin. (YES, THIS PRESTIGE CLASS IS 10 LEVELS LONG) Okay, yes, I know prerequisites usually don't specify classes, but that's what it's going to be used for in this case, and this case is the only one that matters to me, so there we go. Yes, it seems like it gets more than what a character should, but I figured it would probably work like Mystic Theurge: seems like it gets more than it should, but when you think about what you have to give up to take it, it really doesn't... Anyways, have at it... I can already imagine the negative reaction, but let's keep it to constructive criticism please? :) EDIT: Changes from original - Heal and Spellcraft as Class Skills Progresses BOTH Bard and Paladin casting
Jaxgaret 12-06-07, 10:08 PM	Karossii recently posted an awesome trio of Bardadin PrCs. Check it out here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=949442).
Crimson_Concerto 12-06-07, 11:07 PM	Karossii recently posted an awesome trio of Bardadin PrCs. Check it out here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=949442). Yes, that's very nice (no, really, it's very nice!), and I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but I really was just hoping for feedback on my own interpretation for now. This other class will certainly be taken into consideration, of course, but I was hoping to experiment with something that had fewer unique class features (aka no unique class features) if only because I like simplicity.
Jaxgaret 12-06-07, 11:22 PM	Yes, that's very nice (no, really, it's very nice!), and I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but I really was just hoping for feedback on my own interpretation for now. This other class will certainly be taken into consideration, of course, but I was hoping to experiment with something that had fewer unique class features (aka no unique class features) if only because I like simplicity. Okay, if you wish. I just happen to really like karossii's interpretation of it, and I know that he/she put a lot of work into making it and revising it with other posters' help. REQUIREMENTS: Feats: Devoted Performer (Complete Adventurer) Special: 5 levels of Paladin, 5 levels of Bard The Special requirement is both unprecedented and limiting. Do you know of any other classes that require an exact number of levels in a specific class? HIT DIE: D8 BAB: Average (3/4) FORT: Poor REFLEX: Poor WILL: Good Okay, so this class will be less of a frontliner, and more of a support character, as you have designated by your selection of the lower BAB progression and the poor Fort save. Right? CLASS SKILLS: Concentration (CON), Craft (INT), Diplomacy (CHA), Handle Animal (CHA), Knowledge (INT) (all skills, taken individually), Perform (CHA), Profession (WIS), Ride (DEX), Sense Motive (WIS), and Use Magic Device (CHA). SKILL POINTS: 4 + INT That's an awfully small list of class skills, no? CLASS FEATURES: Spells per Day / Spells Known: When a new level of this prestige class is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in either Bard or Paladin (player's choice). They do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. You might as well have said "+1 Bard spellcasting at every level", because no one is going to advance the Paladin's spell progression; Bard casting is much more powerful than Paladin casting, so you should change this if you ever want this class to advance Paladin casting. Devoted Performer Synergy (Ex): Levels of this prestige class count both as levels of Bard and Paladin for purposes of determining the benefits of your Devoted Performer feat. Okay. Special Mount: A member of this prestige class adds its levels in this prestige class to its effective Paladin level to determine the capabilities of his Special Mount. What about a Bard-Paladin makes you think "Special Mount"? Is that something that you envision being integral to the hybrid? Bardic Music: A member of this prestige class adds its levels in this prestige class to its effective Bard level to determine the Bardic Music abilities it knows. Obligatory Multi-Class Note: Paladins who become a member of this prestige class may continue advancing as a Paladin. Okay. (YES, THIS PRESTIGE CLASS IS 10 LEVELS LONG) It seems to get very few class abilities for those 10 levels. Why am I taking this class? Okay, yes, I know prerequisites usually don't specify classes, but that's what it's going to be used for in this case, and this case is the only one that matters to me, so there we go. Well okay then mr. fancy pants. Yes, it seems like it gets more than what a character should, but I figured it would probably work like Mystic Theurge: seems like it gets more than it should, but when you think about what you have to give up to take it, it really doesn't... It's exactly like the Mystic Theurge in this regard, except even more underpowered. Anyways, have at it... I can already imagine the negative reaction, but let's keep it to constructive criticism please? :) I didn't really want to rip into your class, but you asked for it :)
bkdubs123 12-06-07, 11:52 PM	Give it bonus feats every three levels. That should help it out immensely. Oh, and progress both spellcasting halves. The prerequisites are high enough to warrant the boost to both (Mystic Theurge, Fochlucan Lyrist, bla, bla). The thing with this is, you might as well actually take the Mystic Theurge PrC this is so simple, and its pretty much on the same power level. You lose spellcasting progression and MUST be a Bard/Paladin to gain some BAB, better HD, and some skills/skill points. Bonus feats will as I said, help this class tremendously and keep it simple. You should probably add a capstone effect as well since there's no real reason to take it past 9th level with the bonus feats. Oh, and of course make the bonus feat list things that can only help Bards, Paladins, or Bardadins (there are actually quite a few feats for them in various supplements).
Crimson_Concerto 12-06-07, 11:57 PM	Okay, if you wish. I just happen to really like karossii's interpretation of it, and I know that he/she put a lot of work into making it and revising it with other posters' help.And you can best believe I AM very much looking at and considering karossii's interpretation. :) The Special requirement is both unprecedented and limiting. Do you know of any other classes that require an exact number of levels in a specific class?Yes, I'm aware of this, and I was going to instead require the Special Mount class feature, the Bardic Music class feature, and some ranks in perform or arcane casting ability, but I figured I'd avoid beating around the bush... Okay, so this class will be less of a frontliner, and more of a support character, as you have designated by your selection of the lower BAB progression and the poor Fort save. Right?Not necessarely. The Knight has poor Fortitude, and it's a frontliner class. As for the BAB, the Psychic Warrior is a frontliner class, and it has medium BAB as well. However, yes, because this IS supposed to be half bard, it will probably be slightly less frontline and lightly more support, but I think that's more up to the person playing it. I don't think I want to pigeonhole it either way... Would you prefer I gave the class good BAB and all good saves? :) That's an awfully small list of class skills, no?Fair enough. I could consider adding... let's see, Heal and Spellcraft definitely... What else do you suggest? You might as well have said "+1 Bard spellcasting at every level", because no one is going to advance the Paladin's spell progression; Bard casting is much more powerful than Paladin casting, so you should change this if you ever want this class to advance Paladin casting.Well the other possibilities I was considering was just to have it advance both Bard and Paladin spellcasting, and given your later assessment that the class is underpowered, I just might do that. Would this be more acceptable? What about a Bard-Paladin makes you think "Special Mount"? Is that something that you envision being integral to the hybrid?Well, the way I see it the Paladin's two main class features are Smite Evil and the Special Mount, and the Bards are Barding Music and its spellcasting progression... perhaps also Bardic Knowledge? How do you feel about adding some progression for that? Devoted Performer half-improves Smite Evil, though I could also easily consider granting more uses per day of that. Okay.Oh, awesome, one part actually works. :P It seems to get very few class abilities for those 10 levels. Why am I taking this class?Same reason you'd take Mystic Theurge, I guess. You can't get this particular combination of class features otherwise. Just because I don't grant anything in particular past first level doesn't mean you get nothing. It's just that the stuff you get is a result of stacking levels, so it needs not be all clearly spelled out in the class. Well okay then mr. fancy pants.Would you like to suggest prerequisites that don't allow this class to be used for anything other than intended? Requiring Special Mount denotes Paladin 5, but it's a bit more complex to denote Bard 5. I could, say, require the Bardic Music class feature and 2nd level arcane casting, but then one could take a level dip of bard and then go sorcerer or something to make it some weird gish, which isn't what was intended. Again, any particular suggestion? It's exactly like the Mystic Theurge in this regard, except even more underpowered.Well in which of the above ways I've considered would you recommend I improve it? Good BAB? All good saves? Both Paladin and Bard casting? Smite per day and Bardic Knowledge improvement? Extra class skills? I didn't really want to rip into your class, but you asked for it :)Please, it's not like I expected it to be perfect. I actually prefer when more knowledgeable people give me some constructive criticism, though I will admit I prefer it when they actually suggest some ideas for improvement in addition to saying what's wrong. ;) EDIT: OOH! What about some more Turn Undead or Lay on Hands progression? Just popped into mind... Hmm...