Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rone_leah 06-23-07, 06:50 PM	How many times can a bear warrior transform into a bear per day? First, it said that you can use it as many times you can rage. Later it goes into once a day at 1st and more as you lvl. So which is, once a day or as much as you can rage?
bobothechimp 06-23-07, 07:54 PM	The errata fixed this. You are only limited by the number of times per day you can rage.
rone_leah 06-23-07, 09:49 PM	Thanks bobo.:D Love the name.
jago668 07-13-07, 04:06 AM	Figured I would do a little resurrection here. Just a general question what benefits are there to switching into bear form? Seems like giving up magical weapons and armor would not really be worth it. Other than the personal, "I think it is awesome to be a bear." Just seems that the increased strength doesn't really offset the lack of items. Maybe I'm missing something.
Twylyght 07-13-07, 04:56 PM	Figured I would do a little resurrection here. Just a general question what benefits are there to switching into bear form? Seems like giving up magical weapons and armor would not really be worth it. Other than the personal, "I think it is awesome to be a bear." Just seems that the increased strength doesn't really offset the lack of items. Maybe I'm missing something. Well considering youd also loose all your class and racial abilities, feats, and use a normal bears BAB and base saves... I dont get the class benefits either. Maybe for grappling.
Jungingen 07-14-07, 12:41 AM	Check it out, yo. When you're a bear, you gain Bear Size (Medium/Large/Large for Black Bear/Brown Bear/Dire Bear, respectively) Bear Movement (40 feet, which is pretty hot if you sacrificed Fast Movement for Pounce) Bear Natural Armor (+2/+5/+7) Bear Natural Weapons (claw-claw-bite) Bear Space (5 feet/5x10 feet/5x10 feet) Bear Reach (5 feet) Improved Grab in Brown or Dire Bear form PLUS +8 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con in Black Bear form +16 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con in Brown Bear form +20 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con in Dire Bear form You keep your HD but add the new HP from your increased Con. Your saves and BAB remain exactly the same. You keep your class abilities. You keep your feats. And nothing says you lose your racial abilities, except possibly your DM. But seriously–you're a bear. Who cares? Bears have better racials than you anyway. So yeah, you trade the ability to wear armor and hold a weapon for huge fangs and claws and a tough, matted hide and anywhere from a +4 on Grapple checks to a +14 and Improved Grab. Seriously, just read the class entry. It's not the clearest PrC ever written, but the advantages to being a bear are fairly clear. Combine Bear Warrior with Fist of the Forest and/or Deepwarden and you won't miss those stupid weapons and armor one bit.
jago668 07-14-07, 02:20 PM	I got to looking over what you mention. Seems if you were going to grapple, or have the vow of poverty it would be a decent choice. Otherwise I would rather have the versatility and extra damage offered by a weapon. Armor class is really a draw since you could have that shifting quality on armor, and a normal barb could just wear a natural armor necklace. Then you lose out also on the extra will saves, tireless rage, and damage reduction offered by going through barbarian.
Twylyght 07-14-07, 04:22 PM	Check it out, yo. When you're a bear, you gain Bear Size (Medium/Large/Large for Black Bear/Brown Bear/Dire Bear, respectively) Bear Movement (40 feet, which is pretty hot if you sacrificed Fast Movement for Pounce) Bear Natural Armor (+2/+5/+7) Bear Natural Weapons (claw-claw-bite) Bear Space (5 feet/5x10 feet/5x10 feet) Bear Reach (5 feet) Improved Grab in Brown or Dire Bear form PLUS +8 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con in Black Bear form +16 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con in Brown Bear form +20 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con in Dire Bear form You keep your HD but add the new HP from your increased Con. Your saves and BAB remain exactly the same. You keep your class abilities. You keep your feats. And nothing says you lose your racial abilities, except possibly your DM. But seriously–you're a bear. Who cares? Bears have better racials than you anyway. So yeah, you trade the ability to wear armor and hold a weapon for huge fangs and claws and a tough, matted hide and anywhere from a +4 on Grapple checks to a +14 and Improved Grab. Seriously, just read the class entry. It's not the clearest PrC ever written, but the advantages to being a bear are fairly clear. Combine Bear Warrior with Fist of the Forest and/or Deepwarden and you won't miss those stupid weapons and armor one bit. Depends, it says it is like polymorph except for as noted. If a polymorph ability does not mention a change to a specific function, its treated as normal for polymorph subschool effects. The ability gives details on handling changes to how STR, CON, and DEx are handled. Gives details on using all of a bears physical qualities, amd extraordinary special attacks. It makes no exceptions for savings throws, BAB, your own racial or class abilities, feats, or anything else usually lost during a polymorph effect. This is reinforced by the bear warriors class "scent" ability, which makes a clear statement that it does stay while in bear shape, which would be quite unneeded otherwise. The target is treated has having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form's base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice. In all other ways, the target's normal game statistics are effectively replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features (even if the new form would normally be able to use these class features). You not changing into a Bear with barbarian and bear warrior class levels. You are just changing in to a bear with better than normal stats. though wou could still add some warshaper or something and go from there... Got a nice DM, he might let you slide a bit. Some things that you might also get away with is Wild or Beastskin armors if you are allowed to fudge it a bit. The "opposable" weapon enchantment was back in Masters of the Wild, that lets an animal with a defined limb hold a weapon so long as the animal can stand(a bear can).
Jungingen 07-14-07, 04:47 PM	Depends, it says it is like polymorph except for as noted. If a polymorph ability does not mention a change to a specific function, its treated as normal for polymorph subschool effects. The ability gives details on handling changes to how STR, CON, and DEx are handled. Gives details on using all of a bears physical qualities, amd extraordinary special attacks. It makes no exceptions for savings throws, BAB, your own racial or class abilities, feats, or anything else usually lost during a polymorph effect. This is reinforced by the bear warriors class "scent" ability, which makes a clear statement that it does stay while in bear shape, which would be quite unneeded otherwise. You not changing into a Bear with barbarian and bear warrior class levels. You are just changing in to a bear with better than normal stats. though wou could still add some warshaper or something and go from there... Got a nice DM, he might let you slide a bit. Some things that you might also get away with is Wild or Beastskin armors if you are allowed to fudge it a bit. The "opposable" weapon enchantment was back in Masters of the Wild, that lets an animal with a defined limb hold a weapon so long as the animal can stand(a bear can). That is an archaic or misinterpreted version of Polymorph. If you are using Bear Warrior, a class written for use in 3.5, I am going to assume that you are playing 3.5. In 3.5 you do not gain the HD of the form you assume. You adopt the shape's size, Str, Dex, Con and Extraordinary Special Attacks. You do not gain Extraordinary Abilities or any other Special Abilities or Attacks. You keep everything that you have by virtue of class levels. Feats are not even mentioned and we may assume that they are unchanged. HD certainly do not change. Your argument is irrelevant because Bear Warrior states that this ability is "similar to the polymorph spell." Polymorph is a point of reference. At no time does the Bear Form ability refer you to the Polymorph spell. All you need to know is what Bear Form does, Polymorph doesn't even enter into it.
Twylyght 07-14-07, 05:10 PM	Those are quoted from the most current version of the polymorph rules. Polymorph is refrenced multiple times during the bear shape entry. If you are not suposed to use polymorph as the base for handling the effect, there would be no reason to bring it up, and they wouldnt need to keep saying "as normal for polymorph" and "Unlike with polymorph" they would just straight say what the ability does without bringing it up. Generally, in D&D when something says an effect is simular to another, its so they dont need to reprint a page and a half of info. If we do not use polymorph for the base, we have a lot of unanswered questions. What happens to a bear warriors gear when he takes bear form? What happens when he is slain in bear form? What happens if a bears limb is severed in bear form?
Jungingen 07-14-07, 05:57 PM	Those are quoted from the most current version of the polymorph rules. Polymorph is refrenced multiple times during the bear shape entry. If you are not suposed to use polymorph as the base for handling the effect, there would be no reason to bring it up, and they wouldnt need to keep saying "as normal for polymorph" and "Unlike with polymorph" they would just straight say what the ability does without bringing it up. Generally, in D&D when something says an effect is simular to another, its so they dont need to reprint a page and a half of info. If we do not use polymorph for the base, we have a lot of unanswered questions. What happens to a bear warriors gear when he takes bear form? What happens when he is slain in bear form? What happens if a bears limb is severed in bear form? To quote from the SRD: Polymorph Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Willing living creature touched Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead. The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action. Material Component An empty cocoon. Alter Self Transmutation Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D) You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components. You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth. You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check. When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form. To summarize some important points: "Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same." "You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels." Feats are never mentioned. We may assume that since they are never referred to explicitly, they are not affected by the spell. If a Bear Warrior is slain in Bear Form, I suspect that his rage ends. At the end of the rage you revert to your normal form. Too easy. Gear and severed members are not mentioned in the description of the Bear Form ability, but I'm hardly troubled by that. The point that Bear Form != Polymorph is secondary to the point that Polymorphdoes not do what you described and neither does Bear Form.
Twylyght 07-14-07, 07:17 PM	Yes thats the base spell descriptions, but both of those also comply with the rules of the polymorph subschool, except where directly contradicted by the spells text. The rules for polymorph have been updated wit this in both the PHBII and complete mage. A spell of the polymorph subschool changes the target's form from one shape to another. Unless stated otherwise in the spell's description, the target of a polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form in place of its own except as follows: The target retains its own alignment (and personality, within the limits of the new form's ability scores). The target retains its own hit points. The target is treated has having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form's base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice. The target retains the ability to understand the languages it understands in its normal form. If the new form is normally capable of speech, the target retains the ability to speak these languages as well. It can write in the languages it understands, but only if the new form is capable of writing in some manner (even a primitive manner, such as drawing in the dirt with a paw). In all other ways, the target's normal game statistics are effectively replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features (even if the new form would normally be able to use these class features). If the new form's size is different from the target's normal size, its new space must share as much of the original form's space as possible, squeezing into the available space (see PH 148) if necessary. If insufficient space exists for the new form, the spell fails. Any gear worn or carried by the target melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the target reverts to its true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on its body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the target's feet. The spellcaster can freely designate the new form's minor physical qualities (such as hair color and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form's significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under the spellcaster's control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form's kind. The target of a polymorph spell is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise. If the target of a polymorph spell is slain or rendered unconscious, the spell ends. Any part of the body that is separated from the whole remains polymorphed until the effect ends. Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to polymorph spells, as are creatures of the plant type. A creature with the shapechanger subtype (such as a lycanthrope or doppelganger) can revert to its natural form as a standard action. Spells That Have Come Before For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool. Alter self, for instance, does not change the target's ability scores (unlike normal for spells of the polymorph subschool).
Genetic 07-14-07, 07:34 PM	Bear form + Hands of Man = win.
Jungingen 07-14-07, 07:46 PM	Yes thats the base spell descriptions, but both of those also comply with the rules of the polymorph subschool, except where directly contradicted by the spells text. The rules for polymorph have been updated wit this in both the PHBII and complete mage. The text of the spells which I quoted above does directly contradict the subschool description. "You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same." Please point to any rulings which might indicate otherwise. For the sake of argument, if it is true that the language in Alter Self about class levels, saves and BAB does not apply to Polymorph since it is not explicitly stated in the description of Polymorph, then it is also true that the change does not apply to Bear Form, as it is not stated. And Bear Form, I remind you, is not a spell. It does not have the Polymorph Subschool and does not follow those rules.
Twylyght 07-14-07, 09:06 PM	Hmm. You sir have managed to convince me that youll keep your feats, class abilities, ect. While I still believe that the ability refrences and uses polymorph (as well as the subschool) as its base of function, I was not correctly heeding refrence in polymorph itself, to alter self, which does state that those are kept. Since you are correct in further stating that neither polymorph nor bear shape contradict it, you would keep them. Well played, at the moment, it seems you have defeated me. grr :raincloud :D :rofl: :D
LordQwert 07-14-07, 09:25 PM	Jungingen is correct in his interpretation. The sidebar on the Polymorph subschool specifically states that the spells existing rules take priority over the subschool, making special note of Alter Self and Polymorph as examples. Thus you have to read polymorph as written and only use the subschool description to clear up anything not explicitately stated therein. There's also no way anyone would make a prestige class that just turns you into a normal bear. That's just dumb. I'm surprised anyone ever made that interpretation.
LordQwert 07-14-07, 09:26 PM	And by the time I reply defeat has already been acknowledge. Woot. :-P
Jungingen 07-15-07, 12:39 AM	Hmm. You sir have managed to convince me that youll keep your feats, class abilities, ect. While I still believe that the ability refrences and uses polymorph (as well as the subschool) as its base of function, I was not correctly heeding refrence in polymorph itself, to alter self, which does state that those are kept. Since you are correct in further stating that neither polymorph nor bear shape contradict it, you would keep them. Well played, at the moment, it seems you have defeated me. grr :raincloud :D :rofl: :D Thank goodness! Honestly I was beginning to worry. You raised a great many points in favor of Polymorph turning Wizards into big, goofy and useless critters and I was terrified that you might turn out to be correct. God help all of the casters all if Shapechanging into a Choker turned you into an ultra-fast, super-charging juggernaut of doom with...3 HD. Well-played on your part as well. Always a pleasure to be challenged to interpret and hash out the sillier, more contradictory rules, and thank you for drawing my attention to the Polymorph Subschool rules. I'm still trying to figure out why they thought those would clear up more confusion than they create, but such is D&D. :w00t: Now if only someone would give me a straight, official answer on whether Arcane Hierophants can gain Wild Shape without Druid 5.... :waits:
Jandulh 07-24-07, 03:42 PM	Oh and in lords of maddness there is a similar +1 enhancment to the opposable thumb thing, it's basically usuable via the mouth.