Post/Author/DateTime	Post
blaze7386 01-01-08, 03:18 PM	Im not sure what element is the best for an elemental savant and what is a good 1st metamagic feat?
archerpwr 01-01-08, 03:25 PM	Acid is generally the best. Extend spell and sculpt spell are great. Empower spell is also a good choice.
StevenO 01-01-08, 04:47 PM	Many people like Air for the eventual mobility of your Elemental Form. It can be pretty hard to argue witha 100' movement rate and perfect maneuverability. As for actual energy types acid probably is the best because it has the fewest immune creatures and because it is most effective against objects. Unless you are dealing with an aquatic environment cold (water) is probably the worst.
blaze7386 01-01-08, 06:17 PM	well for elemental savant you need energy substitution then you pick the engery acid is great element but how good is the earth elemental form and how good is lightning for the energy type
archerpwr 01-01-08, 06:22 PM	well for elemental savant you need energy substitution then you pick the engery acid is great element but how good is the earth elemental form and how good is lightning for the energy type I wouldn't pin playability on the tenth level.
StevenO 01-02-08, 12:03 AM	The big weakness of the 3.5 Elemental Savant. While many of us like Fire for elemental damage it is often the one that is most resisted which means that acid or electricity aren't bad choices. I'd hope to convince the DM to revert the "banned" energy to just to opposed energy type as was done in the 3.0 version. Sure you don't get the big bonuses that you do when using your element but at least then you still have options.
Anton_Vess 01-04-08, 12:47 AM	Actually, When I was playing a Half-Blue Dragon Kobold Sor I finagled my DM into having Earth and Lighting as my favorites. I actually had to show him the MM entry where the Blue Dragon has the Earth Subtybe. So, if you have a good fluff reason, you should be able to mix and match at will(ask first).
navar100 01-04-08, 02:09 AM	Just because in the Monster Manuals more creatures are resistant to fire than acid doesn't mean fire is a bad choice. If your DM is constantly setting fire resistant creatures against you, there is nothing wrong with the Fire Savant. The problem lies with your DM. No element is best, though water might be a bit weaker due to most adventures take place on land by obviousness; therefore, you get less use of being water. Fire you'll need some imagination such as using campfires on watch and torches lighting up dungeon hallways and rooms, but you won't be gimped in use of being Fire.
SkipSandwich 01-04-08, 03:10 AM	if you have access to Sandstorm, fire becomes stupidly powerful compared to the rest of the elements with the Searing Spell metamagic allowing you to bypass all fire resistance and deal half damage to those creatures normally totally immune to fire. IIRC, its only a 1 spell level bump as well.
archerpwr 01-04-08, 10:40 AM	Just because in the Monster Manuals more creatures are resistant to fire than acid doesn't mean fire is a bad choice. If your DM is constantly setting fire resistant creatures against you, there is nothing wrong with the Fire Savant. The problem lies with your DM. No element is best, though water might be a bit weaker due to most adventures take place on land by obviousness; therefore, you get less use of being water. Fire you'll need some imagination such as using campfires on watch and torches lighting up dungeon hallways and rooms, but you won't be gimped in use of being Fire. You've got it backwards. If the DM is constantly sending creatures *not* resistant to fire (fire immunity or resistance is the easiest of all elements to nab) fire is fine. An elemental savant can *only* do his element type in damage. It basically says all your direct damage spells have elemental substitution(your chosen element). That's why acid is generally the best. Acid gets past some regen, damages objects, and is harder to get immunity/resistance to. @SkipSandwich: You *really* need to check out frostburn. Cold is better if you are investing in an element. Cold can bump up *all* your DCs by 6 with 4 feats *and* use frostmage.
navar100 01-05-08, 02:23 AM	You've got it backwards. If the DM is constantly sending creatures *not* resistant to fire (fire immunity or resistance is the easiest of all elements to nab) fire is fine. An elemental savant can *only* do his element type in damage. It basically says all your direct damage spells have elemental substitution(your chosen element). That's why acid is generally the best. Acid gets past some regen, damages objects, and is harder to get immunity/resistance to. @SkipSandwich: You *really* need to check out frostburn. Cold is better if you are investing in an element. Cold can bump up *all* your DCs by 6 with 4 feats *and* use frostmage. You can cast spells others than for damage. I don't expect the DM never to set you against monsters resistant to your element, but don't disregard an element just because of how many such creatures exist in the Monster Manual. Not every single creature in the Monster Manual exists in the campaign you are playing let alone you will face directly. It's also not as if you are never to fight humans, orcs, goblins, and other humanoids and only ever face "monsters". It's not as if rogues only ever face undead, constructs, elementals, and plant cretures. Fighter McTrippy doesn't always face Large or bigger 4-legged flying monsters. Monks don't fight oozes every single day. My advise stands. Ignore the Monster Manual. Your chosen element is only as useless as the DM jerks you around for it to be.
archerpwr 01-05-08, 04:29 PM	You can cast spells others than for damage. I don't expect the DM never to set you against monsters resistant to your element, but don't disregard an element just because of how many such creatures exist in the Monster Manual. Not every single creature in the Monster Manual exists in the campaign you are playing let alone you will face directly. It's also not as if you are never to fight humans, orcs, goblins, and other humanoids and only ever face "monsters". It's not as if rogues only ever face undead, constructs, elementals, and plant cretures. Fighter McTrippy doesn't always face Large or bigger 4-legged flying monsters. Monks don't fight oozes every single day. My advise stands. Ignore the Monster Manual. Your chosen element is only as useless as the DM jerks you around for it to be. Look, I'm talking about PCs here. Fire is by far the easiest resistance/immunity to get. This is a direct result of the way 3.5 is designed. Elemental spells that deal fire damage deal more damage per CL specifically because fire damage is the most common resisted/immune. It's something integral to the game. ES requires you to elemental sub in your chosen element on all spells that deal elemental damage. This means your ray of frost does fire damage. Take another element and your scorching ray does acid damage. I don't just state things blindly. I'm basing my opinions on knowledge of how the game is designed. Yes, the DM can pick enemies that are vulnerable or not resistant to fire, but in that case, it doesn't matter what element the player uses because the DM is babying the player so that his weakness doesn't come into play. As a rule I don't assume a babying DM. Acid damage with scorching ray's dice is better than cone of frost with fire damage. The spec the player chooses doesn't matter for anything that doesn't do damage, so bringing in other spells is completely ignoring the OP's question.
war_thog 01-05-08, 08:56 PM	A friend of mine plays a follower of Kossuth so allow me to post up what he would say.... FLAME STRIKE!!! BURN IN MY HOLY FIRES!!! Flame strike owns, you can kill **** on the elemental plane of fire with it.
navar100 01-05-08, 09:53 PM	On a related note, no one should play a ranger because the number of monsters that exist is far, far greater than the number of creatures rangers have as a favored enemy, and if your DM sets your ranger against your favored enemy, he's just babysitting you. :rolleyes:
archerpwr 01-05-08, 10:30 PM	On a related note, no one should play a ranger because the number of monsters that exist is far, far greater than the number of creatures rangers have as a favored enemy, and if your DM sets your ranger against your favored enemy, he's just babysitting you. :rolleyes: You've never seen the CO boards, have you? I'm talking pure crunch here and you're just retaliating with sarcasm and defense of fire elemental savants because it's "cool" I have nothing against the element fire. I'm just giving advice. I could do without the trolling.
navar100 01-06-08, 12:05 AM	My advice was not to worry about which element was "better" because all that matters is how the Element Savant will play out in that particular campaign. I got called on that, and I defended it. Which element is best in statistical analysis of hypothetical situations across encounters against all monsters possible is irrelevant to the particular Elemental Savant you will play in your group's game. In short: Pick an element you will have fun playing in whatever aesthetics you prefer and don't worry about the number crunch. You won't be gimping yourself. I could do without the name calling. Anyway, I did forget to address the metamagic feat request. If you like dishing out the damage, Empower Spell or Maximize Spell will do fine. Quicken Spell has its place as well. Heighten Spell is not my personal favorite, but it can help to boost the DCs of your spells you really, really want to work. Since you're more likely to have many damage dealing spells as the levels progress, it's probably not ideal. Another option is to boost your non-damaging spells. Extend Spell does wonders for buffs or debilitate enemies spells. Quicken Spell is also good for that. If you do have lots of damage spells for each spell level, Empower and Maximise aren't as needed for you, so boosting your non-damage spells would be more efficient.
archerpwr 01-06-08, 02:15 AM	My advice was not to worry about which element was "better" because all that matters is how the Element Savant will play out in that particular campaign. Which is completely offtopic and designed to start a debate. In other words, trolling. No wonder you like flame.
Jaxgaret 01-06-08, 02:37 AM	If you use the alternate element system that I saw that one time somewhere in some 3.5 book that had Wood as an element (CDiv?), you could homebrew a Wood Savant. Make your saving throw or take untyped plant damage, fool! Oh, and you're entangled.
archerpwr 01-06-08, 03:09 AM	If you use the alternate element system that I saw that one time somewhere in some 3.5 book that had Wood as an element (CDiv?), you could homebrew a Wood Savant. Make your saving throw or take untyped plant damage, fool! Oh, and you're entangled. I didn't know druid was a prestige class...
navar100 01-06-08, 04:36 AM	Which is completely offtopic and designed to start a debate. In other words, trolling. No wonder you like flame. It was not off topic, and you started the flame. The OP wanted to know the best element. My opinion was there is no best element, though water is probably less effective due to obviousness most adventures take place on land such that one wouldn't get to involve oneself in water much. However, on second thought, there are lakes, rivers, and streams, even in underground caverns and dungeons, such that use of water could be plentiful enough if not every adventure. I just disagree with Monster Manual statistics philosophy.
navar100 01-06-08, 04:37 AM	If you use the alternate element system that I saw that one time somewhere in some 3.5 book that had Wood as an element (CDiv?), you could homebrew a Wood Savant. Make your saving throw or take untyped plant damage, fool! Oh, and you're entangled. Funny, and interesting.
archerpwr 01-06-08, 03:15 PM	It was not off topic, and you started the flame. The OP wanted to know the best element. My opinion was there is no best element Something Completely unhelpful to the OP, though water is probably less effective due to obviousness most adventures take place on land such that one wouldn't get to involve oneself in water much. However, on second thought, there are lakes, rivers, and streams, even in underground caverns and dungeons, such that use of water could be plentiful enough if not every adventure. I just disagree with Monster Manual statistics philosophy. Im not sure what element is the best for an elemental savant and what is a good 1st metamagic feat? Acid is generally the best. Extend spell and sculpt spell are great. Empower spell is also a good choice. Just because in the Monster Manuals more creatures are resistant to fire than acid doesn't mean fire is a bad choice. If your DM is constantly setting fire resistant creatures against you, there is nothing wrong with the Fire Savant. The problem lies with your DM. Also completely off topic and unhelpful No element is best I never said one was best at all times. I never even said anything about fire until you did, though water might be a bit weaker due to most adventures take place on land by obviousness; therefore, you get less use of being water. Fire you'll need some imagination such as using campfires on watch and torches lighting up dungeon hallways and rooms, but you won't be gimped in use of being Fire. You've got it backwards. If the DM is constantly sending creatures *not* resistant to fire (fire immunity or resistance is the easiest of all elements to nab) fire is fine. An elemental savant can *only* do his element type in damage. It basically says all your direct damage spells have elemental substitution(your chosen element). That's why acid is generally the best. Acid gets past some regen, damages objects, and is harder to get immunity/resistance to. @SkipSandwich: You *really* need to check out frostburn. Cold is better if you are investing in an element. Cold can bump up *all* your DCs by 6 with 4 feats *and* use frostmage. My responses are in red. Please, cut the trolling. The reason I generally stay away from these boards is the "It's all the DM's fault" philosophy that people like you spread.
navar100 01-06-08, 05:29 PM	Sigh, you continue to feed the flames. Whether it's helpful to the OP is up to him. He can consider my opinion and just disagree, consider my opinion and agree, consider my opinion and just keep it in mind, or ignore it. My opinion, in summation, was not to worry about which element is best in the first place. He'll have his fun playing the Elemental Savant. Pick an element he'll have fun playing with for his person aesthetic taste. If his chosen element is proving quite lacking, because he was so concerned of which element was best, it's not because he chose that element. That's a worse case scenario. In all likelihood, his DM is not a jerk. He'll have his chosen element. He'll get great use out of it. One or two adventures might be a bit tougher because of his element resistance as par for the course for any character sometimes having to face bad guys resistant to their chosen shtick, (rogues will face undead or constructs, rangers will face non-favored enemy opponents, fighter mctrippy will face large four-legged flying creatures, etc.), but otherwise he'll burn/acidify/electrify/freeze his enemies to his heart's content. Anyway, thank you for giving me power over you for choosing not to read these boards because I have an opinion different than yours.
archerpwr 01-06-08, 05:53 PM	Sigh, you continue to feed the flames. Whether it's helpful to the OP is up to him. He can consider my opinion and just disagree, consider my opinion and agree, consider my opinion and just keep it in mind, or ignore it. My opinion, in summation, was not to worry about which element is best in the first place. He'll have his fun playing the Elemental Savant. Pick an element he'll have fun playing with for his person aesthetic taste. If his chosen element is proving quite lacking, because he was so concerned of which element was best, it's not because he chose that element. That's a worse case scenario. In all likelihood, his DM is not a jerk. He'll have his chosen element. He'll get great use out of it. One or two adventures might be a bit tougher because of his element resistance as par for the course for any character sometimes having to face bad guys resistant to their chosen shtick, (rogues will face undead or constructs, rangers will face non-favored enemy opponents, fighter mctrippy will face large four-legged flying creatures, etc.), but otherwise he'll burn/acidify/electrify/freeze his enemies to his heart's content. Anyway, thank you for giving me power over you for choosing not to read these boards because I have an opinion different than yours. Your logic is weak. I'm not wasting any more time trying to convince fanboys.
navar100 01-06-08, 09:43 PM	Oh well, if you must get the last word ...
NoldorForce 01-06-08, 11:14 PM	The problem with stating that "No element is best" is that it flies in the face of the primary method of comparing Elemental Savant elements, that being comparing how often monsters have resistances to the appropriate energies. It's not hard to tell just by looking through a bunch of monster books that Fire is the most common energy that is resisted, and that Acid is the least common one. (I'd peg the hierarchy at Fire->Cold->Electricity->Acid.) So if the DM throws an "average" assortment of monsters at you (the most likely event), you're probably going to have the most problems (from resistance/immunity) with Fire. This doesn't depend on the DM deliberately throwing bad or good stuff at you; it's just a product of the preexisting monster demographics. By the way, noting that the OP "was not to worry about which element is best in the first place" may not be trolling, but it does seem off-topic. (The relevant part of the OP's question was "Im not sure what element is the best for an elemental savant"; telling him/her not to care sidesteps the issue.)
CmdrCorsiken 01-06-08, 11:54 PM	If it's purely a numbers game of playing the odds, then acid may be the most useful choice.... I will not debate that as I have not done any research on it. However, I would suggest that Consecrate Spell (from Complete Divine) is a great feat. It changes half of the damage to divine power which cannot be overcome with any kind of energy resistance or immunity. This means you can still get some damage against nearly everything.
navar100 01-07-08, 12:57 AM	The problem with stating that "No element is best" is that it flies in the face of the primary method of comparing Elemental Savant elements, that being comparing how often monsters have resistances to the appropriate energies. It's not hard to tell just by looking through a bunch of monster books that Fire is the most common energy that is resisted, and that Acid is the least common one. (I'd peg the hierarchy at Fire->Cold->Electricity->Acid.) So if the DM throws an "average" assortment of monsters at you (the most likely event), you're probably going to have the most problems (from resistance/immunity) with Fire. This doesn't depend on the DM deliberately throwing bad or good stuff at you; it's just a product of the preexisting monster demographics. By the way, noting that the OP "was not to worry about which element is best in the first place" may not be trolling, but it does seem off-topic. (The relevant part of the OP's question was "Im not sure what element is the best for an elemental savant"; telling him/her not to care sidesteps the issue.) I just feel that if one is worried about how your particular character will fair in your particular game, only the circumstances in your particular game will matter, not the statistics of all possible game sources. There is semantics to the OP's question. Was he concerned about his character or just the prestige class in general? I took it as he was concerned about playing his particular character into becoming an Elemental Savant.
NoldorForce 01-07-08, 01:13 AM	I just feel that if one is worried about how your particular character will fair in your particular game, only the circumstances in your particular game will matter, not the statistics of all possible game sources.True, but the OP said very little, and certainly nothing about the circumstances of his/her game. Thus we fall back on the general monster demographics, especially those from Core. And such supports the above hierarchy. If we did know the circumstances of the OP's campaign, we might be able to provide a more tailored and specialized response. But we don't, so we use the general guideline instead.There is semantics to the OP's question. Was he concerned about his character or just the prestige class in general? I took it as he was concerned about playing his particular character into becoming an Elemental Savant.I'm sorry, but I'm confused about what you're trying to say here. Might you enlighten me?
archerpwr 01-07-08, 02:34 AM	If it's purely a numbers game of playing the odds, then acid may be the most useful choice.... I will not debate that as I have not done any research on it. However, I would suggest that Consecrate Spell (from Complete Divine) is a great feat. It changes half of the damage to divine power which cannot be overcome with any kind of energy resistance or immunity. This means you can still get some damage against nearly everything. Fire gets searing spell, frost gets something functionally similar, everybody gets nonlethal substitution (which may be worse than elemental damage). Consecrate spell is pretty decent. Not sure if it would be worth it on a prep caster though. Good idea on a spontaneous caster.
NoldorForce 01-07-08, 02:01 PM	Come to think of it, the Planar Handbook has one substitution level (5th) that allows sorcerers to turn half their energy damage from spells into force. And the only thing they give up is a 2nd-level spell known or such. Rather useful, even if you're not focusing on damage.
navar100 01-08-08, 02:17 AM	I'm sorry, but I'm confused about what you're trying to say here. Might you enlighten me? I reread the OPs post. He didn't specifically say it was for his character, but he also didn't post it as a hypothetical discussion; hence it was ambiguous and to determine what he means is to put your own semantics to his words. My impression was he was concerned about his particular character.
Xavier_Dorland 01-09-08, 10:58 PM	The best element is, of course, the element of surprise. Don't you watch Chuck Norris?
Sinfire Titan 01-10-08, 01:44 AM	if you have access to Sandstorm, fire becomes stupidly powerful compared to the rest of the elements with the Searing Spell metamagic allowing you to bypass all fire resistance and deal half damage to those creatures normally totally immune to fire. IIRC, its only a 1 spell level bump as well. Correction: Searing Spell deals no damage to a creature immune to Fire if it makes it's save, or full damage to it if it fails. Couple this with Scorching Ray, Arcane Thesis, Blistering Spell (PH2), Fiery Spell, Split Ray, Twin Spell, Easy Metamagic, and we are talking 32d6+96 points of Fire damage to anything, with no Ref save for half/none. Put that on an Artificer, and you can drop Arcane Thesis/Easy Metamagic. Now put it in a Rod of Many Wands, and you can triple that damage I just listed. Add in Empower, and you are talking 96d6+288 damage. Provided they all hit, of course. Edit: let me do some math really quick. 20d6 is the damage from being immersed in lava. Lava takes approximately 10-12 seconds to fully incinerate a full-grown human being IRL. In DnD, this translates into 40d6 points of fire damage. This is well over double that, so the time should be reduced considerably. I'd say, 96d6+288 damage is enough to flash-vaporize a Great Wyrm Red.
Jaxgaret 01-10-08, 02:36 AM	The best element is, of course, the element of surprise. Don't you watch Chuck Norris? Chuck Norris is always behind you, no matter what, which precludes your watching him. Only via high-speed motion capture technology has modern man even begun to realize the scope of Chuck Norris' continuous swath of devastation and/or reconstruction wreaked upon this world. What powers would a Surprise Savant have?
Sinfire Titan 01-10-08, 03:09 AM	Chuck Norris is always behind you, no matter what, which precludes your watching him. Only via high-speed motion capture technology has modern man even begun to realize the scope of Chuck Norris' continuous swath of devastation and/or reconstruction wreaked upon this world. What powers would a Surprise Savant have? Spontaneously dropping his pants without undoing them. (One of my friends can actually do this with really tight pants.)
Suspect_Unusual 01-10-08, 02:17 PM	Sunfire Titan:Correction: Searing Spell deals no damage to a creature immune to Fire if it makes it's save, or full damage to it if it fails. Are we reading the same Sandstorm? I don't see anything about that in the feat description, only the "bypasses fire resistance, 1/2 damage to fire immune" text.
Sinfire Titan 01-10-08, 05:12 PM	Sunfire Titan: Are we reading the same Sandstorm? I don't see anything about that in the feat description, only the "bypasses fire resistance, 1/2 damage to fire immune" text. Damn, it's better than I thought then. I kept misreading it. Hellfire is still better for hitting Fire immunities, though. And it is Sinfire, not Sunfire.