Best school to restrict and why? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best school to restrict and why? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lordofthe9
08-01-07, 01:51 PM One of the other players in our group has finally decided to run a campaign, which means that I will be able to do something other than DM. I'm very excited about this, and have decided to play a Human Wizard with the intention of going into the Incantatrix PRC (from Forgotten Realms) once I meet the requirements.

I would just like to get a feel for what school or schools are considered the best for restricting(other than abjuration since it's a req. for the PRC). I would also like to know why you feel this particular school makes the best choice. You don't need to be familier with the PRC, it's the same as if I were doing a specialist Wizard, so feel free to give me your opinions. Thank you in advance.
Hsien
08-01-07, 02:23 PM Really depends on character flavor and levels of campaign.
I recently made a Druid/Wiz/MysticT

edite: 08/02/07 6:30pm
I took Spec Conjuration and Necro/Enchantment as opposition schools...
Necro, didn't match the druid part of character well, np and Enchantment because it didn't have any low level spells that I needed, and it's a low-mid level campaign mostly.
Lordofthe9
08-01-07, 02:31 PM Thanks, I basically don't want to be shooting myself in the foot. I know that I don't want to restrict Necromancy since some of those "save or dies" come in handy (Have another player who I believe will try and kill me during the campaign so I want some quick "don't mess with me" spells around).

The flavor of the campaign will be that we're part of a para-military unit on the frontier between our own country and another nation that is very hostile. Tracking troop movements, sabotage, and eventually large scale engagements, along with random encounters along the way... that's about all I know of it.
IdleAltruism
08-01-07, 02:41 PM It really depends on what kind of specialist you want to be. As an incantatrix I wouldn't run a specialist wizard, you'd have to give up 3 schools....thats just to much. It really depends on the incantatrix what school you want to give up, you can't drop abjuration or divination. Depending on what kind of wizard you want,
The one you can live without would probably be enchantment just being a general wizard.
Lordofthe9
08-01-07, 02:46 PM Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I won't be a specialist wizard, just wanted to mention that as an Incantatrix I will need to choose a restricted school much like a specialist wizard. I've looked at enchantment and evocation schools as the schools I would most likely restrict but am just looking for what other people have done and why. Thanks for your input.
Puca
08-01-07, 02:46 PM Really depends on character flavor and levels of campaign.
I recently made a Druid/Wiz/MysticT

I took Spec Conjuration and Necro/Universal as opposition schools...
Necro, didn't match the druid part of characetr well, np and Universal because it didn't have any low level spells that I needed, and it's a low-mid level campaign mostly.:) Universal isnt a school. Therefore, you cant give it up as a school.

I think evocation is about the easiest school to give up.Even without spells like Shadow Evocation, you can do most of the things evocation does with other schools, like using conjurations to do direct damage.
foxtail
08-01-07, 02:47 PM You'll want to keep Illusion for all the sneaking around it sound like you'll be doing. Transmutation covers a great deal of your utility spells - I almost never consider transmutation as an opposition school.

In your specific case, I would recommend leaving behind Enchantment and Evocation. It might seem a hardship to lose fireball and the like, but Conjuration has a lot of damage-dealing spells to make up for it (a good number of which ignore spell resistance).

Of course, if you have a secondary caster in your party, your choice is that much easier; just give up whatever he can cast for you instead.

I took Spec Conjuration and Necro/Universal as opposition schools...
Necro, didn't match the druid part of characetr well, np and Universal because it didn't have any low level spells that I needed, and it's a low-mid level campaign mostly.

Sorry, but from the SRD:
Universal
Not a school, but a category for spells that all wizards can learn. A wizard cannot select universal as a specialty school or as a prohibited school.

Edit: Puca beat me by a minute. Bleh. :P
Lordofthe9
08-01-07, 03:51 PM I like what I'm hearing, and I'm now leaning towards evocation as a restricted school. While I'll be the only arcane caster in the group we will have a Psion with a specialty in blowing stuff up. It seems like your advice of "just give up whatever he can cast for you instead." would work out in this situation. I'm not much into fireball and mass nuking anyway.

I'm still open to suggestions if there are any out there. Also, if you have any "can't live without" spell suggestions for what I've described I'm still filling in my spellbook. :)
Hsien
08-01-07, 06:21 PM Dahhhh..I must have left off the "not" part when I read "cannot."
Making characters at 6am can be tricky.
Thanks, that will save me a big Oops at Gen Con.

I'll see what I can do without the most from Wiz and make up for in Druid, if needed...Enchantment may be at the top of the list to go.

Back on thread:
Evocation, since ther seems to be some duplication there...not that familiar with Psionics as my group doesn't use that.

Necromancy is still low on my list. Ok so the save or dies are nice, but not really all that reliable imo, as most all or nothing spells are.

2 cents...
Keep Enchantment, Charm Person is almost as valuable as a save or "threat ended" spell for friends and enemies alike, and very useful to gather info from otherwise hostile prisoners.
Jaxgaret
08-01-07, 07:24 PM I'll agree with Enchantment or Evocation being the school to drop.
IdleAltruism
08-02-07, 12:43 AM I would give up enchantment in this situation. I wouldn't like the idea of being the only caster in the group without evocation, sometimes its to handy not to have. This is just my opinion, you can make great casters without evocation(or with for that matter) but to me you aren't a generalist wizard without fireball. I'm just old school I guess.
Arniha
08-02-07, 05:01 AM I'd go for enchantment over Evocation mostly for smaller spells like Magic Missile and Ray of Frost. Plus Tenser's Floating disc could be handy. Fireball is obvious, the wall spells are handy, scorching ray is purely mean, shout is nice if you are fighting things with resistance and obviously there is also Fireball. Did I mention fireball?
Puca
08-02-07, 10:34 AM Fireball does direct damage to an area. I can do that with conjuration spells.
Magic Missile does force damage, which everyone loves, but I can also do that with conjuration. Walls block off an area, but I can do that with, any guesses?

If there is anything I use evocation for that I cant achieve with a conjuration spell, I can duplicate the evocation with an illusion spell.

No, Im not saying I can do evocation-effects in exactly the same way, and not even exactly as well. (Though, with a tendency to by-pass SR, conjuration is as often better.)

Enchantment is a weak school in many ways. The list of things with big bonuses to Will saves is almost as long as the list of things that are outright immune to enchantments and mind-influencing effects.

But it cant be duplicated. If you ever want to exert mental control over another, and you will, you cant do it without enchantment.

Thats why if I were going to give up only one school, no other considerations, it would be evocation.
IdleAltruism
08-02-07, 03:11 PM Well it really depends, conjuration does have many useful spells. Many that can do damage(I'm talking direct damage not summoning). But often they pay for it with higher spell levels to achieve a greater affect(force orb and the other orbs). For this reason I would argue that evocation should not be tossed to lightly. Higher level spell slots are very valuable and although they might give a better affect(no SR better damage type) these can be mimicked with feats and class abilities(energy subsitution for example). Spells like sorching ray and magic missle are good to have in your armory because they give a big bang for your buck.

The thing about a wizard is they prepare for encounters. So if they know they'll fight a creature with stupidly high SR they can prepare orb spells. But generally SR isn't the biggest issue(later levels it can be but we are talking about half the game here).

Enchantment is a save or lose school that has many many counters, its like playing a rogue mage. If it works great if it doesn't, well theres really nothing you can do about it. While things like conjuration and evocation will almost always do something. It may not be duplicated and its pay offs may be good but in the long run I don't find it as useful.
tarkin
08-02-07, 03:27 PM I definitely suggest you dump Enchantment charm if you are not specializing in it. It is the easiest school to drop, without any amazing spells that do something no other spells do.

I would never drop Abjuration (Dispell Magic and similar spells are too important) or Transmutation (too many spells)

I would not drop both Conjuration and Evocation, that loses too many of the direct damage spells. But dropping ONE of these schools can make sense, as long as you keep illusion (Shadow sereies of spells)

Necromancy is an OK school to drop, it tends to have few spells, and many are 'evilish'

Illusion has some of the best defensive spells, but it is OK to drop as long as you do not also drop either conjuration or evocation (see above).
Puca
08-02-07, 04:00 PM Well it really depends, conjuration does have many useful spells. Many that can do damage(I'm talking direct damage not summoning). But often they pay for it with higher spell levels to achieve a greater affect(force orb and the other orbs). For this reason I would argue that evocation should not be tossed to lightly. Higher level spell slots are very valuable and although they might give a better affect(no SR better damage type) these can be mimicked with feats and class abilities(energy subsitution for example). Spells like sorching ray and magic missle are good to have in your armory because they give a big bang for your buck.Well, come on. You are giving up a school. You have to lose something. :)

The question for me is, is there a way to make up for what Ive lost? With evocation, the answer is yes. Like I said before, those methods arent going to be as good. But I have to give up something.

Enchantment is a save or lose school that has many many counters, its like playing a rogue mage. If it works great if it doesn't, well theres really nothing you can do about it. Thats true. Totally agree with you there. Million ways to beat it. But when they work, oh how they work. Im not arguing that one should specialize in enchantment. Just keep it open.

Even if you never see yourself wanting to exercise control over an opponent as opposed to just killing him, you may need to at some point.

I definitely suggest you dump Enchantment charm if you are not specializing in it. It is the easiest school to drop, without any amazing spells that do something no other spells do.What? What other school allows you to exert mental control over another creature? I can agree that you can live without it, but not that you can easily duplicate it with another school.

I would never drop Abjuration (Dispell Magic and similar spells are too important) or Transmutation (too many spells)Totally agree.

Necromancy is an OK school to drop, it tends to have few spells, and many are 'evilish'If it werent for False Life. I put False Life on the same level as Dispel Magic: cant live without.

Illusion has some of the best defensive spells, but it is OK to drop as long as you do not also drop either conjuration or evocation (see above).I hate giving up illusion.
Magius_Rerecros
08-02-07, 06:11 PM I took Spec Conjuration and Necro/Universal as opposition schools...

Ummm... you can't do that.

Universal: Not a school, but a category for spells that all wizards can learn. A wizard cannot select universal as a specialty school or a prohibited school. Only a limited number of spells fall into this category.

As for Lordofthe9, the prohibited schools you decide to drop really depend on what you want to do with your wizard. For example, a wizard who wants to focus on charming and dominating others to do the dirty work for him would probably want to specialize in Enchantment, and give up Evocation and Necromancy. At the same time, a blaster-type might want to specialize in either Conjuration (for spells like Acid Fog and Incendiary Cloud), Evocation (for obvious reasons), or Transmutation (for spells like Disintegrate), and give up Necromancy and Enchantment.
Hsien
08-02-07, 06:29 PM Ummm... you can't do that.

I know, I know...got that resolved and re-posted about 24 hours ago.
I'll go edit the original to remove future confusion.
Magius_Rerecros
08-02-07, 06:30 PM Yeah, I hadn't noticed like two or three other people correct you before I went to reply >_>

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lordofthe9 08-01-07, 01:51 PM	One of the other players in our group has finally decided to run a campaign, which means that I will be able to do something other than DM. I'm very excited about this, and have decided to play a Human Wizard with the intention of going into the Incantatrix PRC (from Forgotten Realms) once I meet the requirements. I would just like to get a feel for what school or schools are considered the best for restricting(other than abjuration since it's a req. for the PRC). I would also like to know why you feel this particular school makes the best choice. You don't need to be familier with the PRC, it's the same as if I were doing a specialist Wizard, so feel free to give me your opinions. Thank you in advance.
Hsien 08-01-07, 02:23 PM	Really depends on character flavor and levels of campaign. I recently made a Druid/Wiz/MysticT edite: 08/02/07 6:30pm I took Spec Conjuration and Necro/Enchantment as opposition schools... Necro, didn't match the druid part of character well, np and Enchantment because it didn't have any low level spells that I needed, and it's a low-mid level campaign mostly.
Lordofthe9 08-01-07, 02:31 PM	Thanks, I basically don't want to be shooting myself in the foot. I know that I don't want to restrict Necromancy since some of those "save or dies" come in handy (Have another player who I believe will try and kill me during the campaign so I want some quick "don't mess with me" spells around). The flavor of the campaign will be that we're part of a para-military unit on the frontier between our own country and another nation that is very hostile. Tracking troop movements, sabotage, and eventually large scale engagements, along with random encounters along the way... that's about all I know of it.
IdleAltruism 08-01-07, 02:41 PM	It really depends on what kind of specialist you want to be. As an incantatrix I wouldn't run a specialist wizard, you'd have to give up 3 schools....thats just to much. It really depends on the incantatrix what school you want to give up, you can't drop abjuration or divination. Depending on what kind of wizard you want, The one you can live without would probably be enchantment just being a general wizard.
Lordofthe9 08-01-07, 02:46 PM	Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I won't be a specialist wizard, just wanted to mention that as an Incantatrix I will need to choose a restricted school much like a specialist wizard. I've looked at enchantment and evocation schools as the schools I would most likely restrict but am just looking for what other people have done and why. Thanks for your input.
Puca 08-01-07, 02:46 PM	Really depends on character flavor and levels of campaign. I recently made a Druid/Wiz/MysticT I took Spec Conjuration and Necro/Universal as opposition schools... Necro, didn't match the druid part of characetr well, np and Universal because it didn't have any low level spells that I needed, and it's a low-mid level campaign mostly.:) Universal isnt a school. Therefore, you cant give it up as a school. I think evocation is about the easiest school to give up.Even without spells like Shadow Evocation, you can do most of the things evocation does with other schools, like using conjurations to do direct damage.
foxtail 08-01-07, 02:47 PM	You'll want to keep Illusion for all the sneaking around it sound like you'll be doing. Transmutation covers a great deal of your utility spells - I almost never consider transmutation as an opposition school. In your specific case, I would recommend leaving behind Enchantment and Evocation. It might seem a hardship to lose fireball and the like, but Conjuration has a lot of damage-dealing spells to make up for it (a good number of which ignore spell resistance). Of course, if you have a secondary caster in your party, your choice is that much easier; just give up whatever he can cast for you instead. I took Spec Conjuration and Necro/Universal as opposition schools... Necro, didn't match the druid part of characetr well, np and Universal because it didn't have any low level spells that I needed, and it's a low-mid level campaign mostly. Sorry, but from the SRD: Universal Not a school, but a category for spells that all wizards can learn. A wizard cannot select universal as a specialty school or as a prohibited school. Edit: Puca beat me by a minute. Bleh. :P
Lordofthe9 08-01-07, 03:51 PM	I like what I'm hearing, and I'm now leaning towards evocation as a restricted school. While I'll be the only arcane caster in the group we will have a Psion with a specialty in blowing stuff up. It seems like your advice of "just give up whatever he can cast for you instead." would work out in this situation. I'm not much into fireball and mass nuking anyway. I'm still open to suggestions if there are any out there. Also, if you have any "can't live without" spell suggestions for what I've described I'm still filling in my spellbook. :)
Hsien 08-01-07, 06:21 PM	Dahhhh..I must have left off the "not" part when I read "cannot." Making characters at 6am can be tricky. Thanks, that will save me a big Oops at Gen Con. I'll see what I can do without the most from Wiz and make up for in Druid, if needed...Enchantment may be at the top of the list to go. Back on thread: Evocation, since ther seems to be some duplication there...not that familiar with Psionics as my group doesn't use that. Necromancy is still low on my list. Ok so the save or dies are nice, but not really all that reliable imo, as most all or nothing spells are. 2 cents... Keep Enchantment, Charm Person is almost as valuable as a save or "threat ended" spell for friends and enemies alike, and very useful to gather info from otherwise hostile prisoners.
Jaxgaret 08-01-07, 07:24 PM	I'll agree with Enchantment or Evocation being the school to drop.
IdleAltruism 08-02-07, 12:43 AM	I would give up enchantment in this situation. I wouldn't like the idea of being the only caster in the group without evocation, sometimes its to handy not to have. This is just my opinion, you can make great casters without evocation(or with for that matter) but to me you aren't a generalist wizard without fireball. I'm just old school I guess.
Arniha 08-02-07, 05:01 AM	I'd go for enchantment over Evocation mostly for smaller spells like Magic Missile and Ray of Frost. Plus Tenser's Floating disc could be handy. Fireball is obvious, the wall spells are handy, scorching ray is purely mean, shout is nice if you are fighting things with resistance and obviously there is also Fireball. Did I mention fireball?
Puca 08-02-07, 10:34 AM	Fireball does direct damage to an area. I can do that with conjuration spells. Magic Missile does force damage, which everyone loves, but I can also do that with conjuration. Walls block off an area, but I can do that with, any guesses? If there is anything I use evocation for that I cant achieve with a conjuration spell, I can duplicate the evocation with an illusion spell. No, Im not saying I can do evocation-effects in exactly the same way, and not even exactly as well. (Though, with a tendency to by-pass SR, conjuration is as often better.) Enchantment is a weak school in many ways. The list of things with big bonuses to Will saves is almost as long as the list of things that are outright immune to enchantments and mind-influencing effects. But it cant be duplicated. If you ever want to exert mental control over another, and you will, you cant do it without enchantment. Thats why if I were going to give up only one school, no other considerations, it would be evocation.
IdleAltruism 08-02-07, 03:11 PM	Well it really depends, conjuration does have many useful spells. Many that can do damage(I'm talking direct damage not summoning). But often they pay for it with higher spell levels to achieve a greater affect(force orb and the other orbs). For this reason I would argue that evocation should not be tossed to lightly. Higher level spell slots are very valuable and although they might give a better affect(no SR better damage type) these can be mimicked with feats and class abilities(energy subsitution for example). Spells like sorching ray and magic missle are good to have in your armory because they give a big bang for your buck. The thing about a wizard is they prepare for encounters. So if they know they'll fight a creature with stupidly high SR they can prepare orb spells. But generally SR isn't the biggest issue(later levels it can be but we are talking about half the game here). Enchantment is a save or lose school that has many many counters, its like playing a rogue mage. If it works great if it doesn't, well theres really nothing you can do about it. While things like conjuration and evocation will almost always do something. It may not be duplicated and its pay offs may be good but in the long run I don't find it as useful.
tarkin 08-02-07, 03:27 PM	I definitely suggest you dump Enchantment charm if you are not specializing in it. It is the easiest school to drop, without any amazing spells that do something no other spells do. I would never drop Abjuration (Dispell Magic and similar spells are too important) or Transmutation (too many spells) I would not drop both Conjuration and Evocation, that loses too many of the direct damage spells. But dropping ONE of these schools can make sense, as long as you keep illusion (Shadow sereies of spells) Necromancy is an OK school to drop, it tends to have few spells, and many are 'evilish' Illusion has some of the best defensive spells, but it is OK to drop as long as you do not also drop either conjuration or evocation (see above).
Puca 08-02-07, 04:00 PM	Well it really depends, conjuration does have many useful spells. Many that can do damage(I'm talking direct damage not summoning). But often they pay for it with higher spell levels to achieve a greater affect(force orb and the other orbs). For this reason I would argue that evocation should not be tossed to lightly. Higher level spell slots are very valuable and although they might give a better affect(no SR better damage type) these can be mimicked with feats and class abilities(energy subsitution for example). Spells like sorching ray and magic missle are good to have in your armory because they give a big bang for your buck.Well, come on. You are giving up a school. You have to lose something. :) The question for me is, is there a way to make up for what Ive lost? With evocation, the answer is yes. Like I said before, those methods arent going to be as good. But I have to give up something. Enchantment is a save or lose school that has many many counters, its like playing a rogue mage. If it works great if it doesn't, well theres really nothing you can do about it. Thats true. Totally agree with you there. Million ways to beat it. But when they work, oh how they work. Im not arguing that one should specialize in enchantment. Just keep it open. Even if you never see yourself wanting to exercise control over an opponent as opposed to just killing him, you may need to at some point. I definitely suggest you dump Enchantment charm if you are not specializing in it. It is the easiest school to drop, without any amazing spells that do something no other spells do.What? What other school allows you to exert mental control over another creature? I can agree that you can live without it, but not that you can easily duplicate it with another school. I would never drop Abjuration (Dispell Magic and similar spells are too important) or Transmutation (too many spells)Totally agree. Necromancy is an OK school to drop, it tends to have few spells, and many are 'evilish'If it werent for False Life. I put False Life on the same level as Dispel Magic: cant live without. Illusion has some of the best defensive spells, but it is OK to drop as long as you do not also drop either conjuration or evocation (see above).I hate giving up illusion.
Magius_Rerecros 08-02-07, 06:11 PM	I took Spec Conjuration and Necro/Universal as opposition schools... Ummm... you can't do that. Universal: Not a school, but a category for spells that all wizards can learn. A wizard cannot select universal as a specialty school or a prohibited school. Only a limited number of spells fall into this category. As for Lordofthe9, the prohibited schools you decide to drop really depend on what you want to do with your wizard. For example, a wizard who wants to focus on charming and dominating others to do the dirty work for him would probably want to specialize in Enchantment, and give up Evocation and Necromancy. At the same time, a blaster-type might want to specialize in either Conjuration (for spells like Acid Fog and Incendiary Cloud), Evocation (for obvious reasons), or Transmutation (for spells like Disintegrate), and give up Necromancy and Enchantment.
Hsien 08-02-07, 06:29 PM	Ummm... you can't do that. I know, I know...got that resolved and re-posted about 24 hours ago. I'll go edit the original to remove future confusion.
Magius_Rerecros 08-02-07, 06:30 PM	Yeah, I hadn't noticed like two or three other people correct you before I went to reply >_>