Bladesinger Redux [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bladesinger Redux [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bkdubs123
10-23-07, 03:11 PM So, there have been a lot of complaints about how crappy the 3.5 Bladesinger seems to be. Well, I think with a little tweaking here and there, some borrowing from other PrCs and perhaps a little originality, we can come up with a Bladesinger that's much better.

So what I propose is that from the current Bladesinger we take away the Intelligence bonus to AC (Bladesong Style) and we replace it with a Dodge bonus to AC, perhaps starting at +1 and reaching +5. We also take away Song of Fury as it really seems out of place.

Then we add a lot. We add Dervish Dance from the Dervish, although perhaps not starting until 3rd level, gaining further uses per day every odd level thereafter (max of 4/day). From Daggerspell Mage we add Invocation of the [Edge] (modified from "of the Knife" and add an option to deal piercing damage too), and Song of Arcane Fury (also known as Daggerspell Flurry).

I'm thinking that Song of Celerity should also be modified to work once per encounter seeing as how they can only power low level spells anyway. Song of Arcane Fury would of course remain usable only a few times per day.

So then we're looking at:

Hit Dice: d8

Lv BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1. +1 +0 +2 +2 Bladesong Style, Invocation of the Edge, Armored Mage (light)
2. +2 +0 +3 +3 Lesser Spellsong +1 level of existing spellcasting class
3. +3 +1 +3 +3 Deadly Dance 1/day
4. +4 +1 +4 +4 Song of Celerity (2nd) +1 level of existing spellcasting class
5. +5 +1 +4 +4 Deadly Dance 2/day
6. +6 +2 +5 +5 Greater Spellsong +1 level of existing spellcasting class
7. +7 +2 +5 +5 Deadly Dance 3/day
8. +8 +2 +6 +6 Song of Celerity (4th) +1 level of existing spellcasting class
9. +9 +3 +6 +6 Deadly Dance 4/day, Tireless Dance
10. +10 +3 +7 +7 Song of Arcane Fury +1 level of existing spellcasting class

The Skills per level and skill list remains the same.

The prerequisites for Blade Dancer remain the same (except that you don't have to be an elf), however some of the class features are altered, as below:

Game Rule Information:

Weapons and Armor Proficiency: Same as Bladesinger.

Bladesong Style: As long as a Bladesinger wears light or no armor, is wielding a light or finessable one handed slashing or piercing weapon, and is not carrying a shield she gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to one half her class level rounded up.

Invocation of the Edge: As the Daggerspell Mage class feature Invocation of the Knife except that a Bladesinger may opt to convert half the damage of a spell into magical piercing damage instead of magical slashing damage (a Bladesinger can also convert spell damage into magical slashing damage as normal).

Lesser Spellsong: As the Bladesinger class feature.

Deadly Dance: As the Dervish class feature "Dervish Dance," except that the dance can only be performed while wielding a light or finessable one handed slashing or piercing weapon and the bonus to attack and damage apply to the weapon in question (rather than only slashing weapons). The bonus is +1 at 3rd level and increases by +1 every odd level thereafter.

Song of Celerity: As the Bladesinger class feature except that this ability can be used once per encounter. A Bladesinger does not get another use of this ability per encounter at 8th level, but is merely able to quicken up to 4th level spells in this manner.

Greater Spellsong: During any round in which a Bladesinger casts a spell she gains +10ft to her movement speed and a circumstance bonus to her AC and to all dexterity based checks equal to half her class level rounded down until her next turn. This bonus can only be applied once each round.

Tireless Dance: As the Dervish class feature.

Song of Arcane Fury: As the Daggerspell Mage class feature "Daggerspell Flurry," except that a Bladesinger must wield a light or finessable one handed slashing or piercing weapon rather than Daggers.

So what do you think? Not entirely sure if it's too powerful or not, but I thought I'd give the class a revamp to perhaps shore up its weaknesses (especially when compared to newer base classes).
jradd777
10-23-07, 05:29 PM You could go two major directions with where it's at currently

To be more casterish, I'd say change to d6, add more +1 to caster levels, and probably to help balance out the casting, maybe reduce daily uses of the dance to 3.

You could also make it more toward the martial bent but that would possibly require several changes to keep everything meshing together seemlessly.

Overall, it's a pretty powerful PrC, but it has some pretty strict prereq's etc. and I love the flavor, good, solid work!
bkdubs123
10-23-07, 10:17 PM I can't decide whether I want to lower the BAB to medium and increase the spellcaster levels (lowering the dance to 3/day and losing tireless dance) or leave it mostly as is.

Thanks for the feedback though! I'd say it's probably on par with other half-caster PrCs out there (if perhaps a bit more powerful. a lot of the half-caster PrCs ended up a little on the weak side).
BananaB
10-24-07, 06:14 PM I suggest just lowering the BAB to medium, giving 8/10 caster lvls and lowering the dance to 3/day and leaving it at that. That way you can keep class features without overpowering the class.
bkdubs123
10-24-07, 07:27 PM I'm not sure about that just yet. The Bladesinger is supposed to be a more martially oriented class, and increasing caster levels actually just makes the class more powerful.

Ideas I am considering:
Lowering the HD to d6.
Reducing Dance/day to 3.
Removing Tireless Dance
Reducing the effectiveness of Song of Celerity
Any combination of the above.
bkdubs123
10-26-07, 01:44 AM MORE FEEDBACK! (Consider this thread bumped)
bkdubs123
10-29-07, 06:11 AM Bump-diddle-do.
jradd777
10-29-07, 02:08 PM The more I look and think about it, I like it as-is. As I said it might be a tad powerful but giving it significantly more spellcasting and dropping other abilities, I agree would probably only worsen that condition. Maybe leave it, unless anyone has a strong argument as to why it's overpowered.
Mordin
10-29-07, 07:38 PM Very awesome idea :D

My only suggestion would be too broaden the weapons allowed maybe to any light or one-handed slashing or piercing weapon. One of my favorite things about the Bladesinger Kit from 2nd edition was that some though very rare bladesingers used alternate light or one-handed weapons such as the whip (elven long blade should be a no brainier).
Mordin
10-29-07, 08:28 PM Also another thing that came to mind is I would probably move the +1 existing caster level to very even level. I know the prerequisites are tough but there are a lot of abilities at 1st level in addition to the bonus to a casting class. Just a thought.

I just thought of one reason to leave Bladesong style alone Fox’s cunning, headband of intellect and so forth and so on. Again just my 2 cents.
bkdubs123
10-29-07, 10:05 PM Good Points. Changing the caster levels to even levels instead of odd and allowing for light or finessable one-handed slashing or piercing weapons.

I don't understand particularly though what you are getting at with the Bladesong Style comment.
Mordin
10-29-07, 11:21 PM Good Points. Changing the caster levels to even levels instead of odd and allowing for light or finessable one-handed slashing or piercing weapons.

I don't understand particularly though what you are getting at with the Bladesong Style comment.

With the way you changed the Bladesong style your max bonus to AC is +5 at 10th level. Since this is a fighter/caster class if you leave the bladesong style alone with spells like Fox’s Cunning and other things like a headband of intellect a bladesinger can potentially raise the dodge bonus much higher than +5. Unless your using the reworked ability as a balancing thing.

I hope I make more sense this time.
Lord Karsus
11-16-07, 04:31 PM -An Alternative Bladesinger PrC (I was actually thinking of simply converting it to a Core Class) can be found in Elves of Faerūn, the link to which is in my Sig.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bkdubs123 10-23-07, 03:11 PM	So, there have been a lot of complaints about how crappy the 3.5 Bladesinger seems to be. Well, I think with a little tweaking here and there, some borrowing from other PrCs and perhaps a little originality, we can come up with a Bladesinger that's much better. So what I propose is that from the current Bladesinger we take away the Intelligence bonus to AC (Bladesong Style) and we replace it with a Dodge bonus to AC, perhaps starting at +1 and reaching +5. We also take away Song of Fury as it really seems out of place. Then we add a lot. We add Dervish Dance from the Dervish, although perhaps not starting until 3rd level, gaining further uses per day every odd level thereafter (max of 4/day). From Daggerspell Mage we add Invocation of the [Edge] (modified from "of the Knife" and add an option to deal piercing damage too), and Song of Arcane Fury (also known as Daggerspell Flurry). I'm thinking that Song of Celerity should also be modified to work once per encounter seeing as how they can only power low level spells anyway. Song of Arcane Fury would of course remain usable only a few times per day. So then we're looking at: Hit Dice: d8 Lv BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1. +1 +0 +2 +2 Bladesong Style, Invocation of the Edge, Armored Mage (light) 2. +2 +0 +3 +3 Lesser Spellsong +1 level of existing spellcasting class 3. +3 +1 +3 +3 Deadly Dance 1/day 4. +4 +1 +4 +4 Song of Celerity (2nd) +1 level of existing spellcasting class 5. +5 +1 +4 +4 Deadly Dance 2/day 6. +6 +2 +5 +5 Greater Spellsong +1 level of existing spellcasting class 7. +7 +2 +5 +5 Deadly Dance 3/day 8. +8 +2 +6 +6 Song of Celerity (4th) +1 level of existing spellcasting class 9. +9 +3 +6 +6 Deadly Dance 4/day, Tireless Dance 10. +10 +3 +7 +7 Song of Arcane Fury +1 level of existing spellcasting class The Skills per level and skill list remains the same. The prerequisites for Blade Dancer remain the same (except that you don't have to be an elf), however some of the class features are altered, as below: Game Rule Information: Weapons and Armor Proficiency: Same as Bladesinger. Bladesong Style: As long as a Bladesinger wears light or no armor, is wielding a light or finessable one handed slashing or piercing weapon, and is not carrying a shield she gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to one half her class level rounded up. Invocation of the Edge: As the Daggerspell Mage class feature Invocation of the Knife except that a Bladesinger may opt to convert half the damage of a spell into magical piercing damage instead of magical slashing damage (a Bladesinger can also convert spell damage into magical slashing damage as normal). Lesser Spellsong: As the Bladesinger class feature. Deadly Dance: As the Dervish class feature "Dervish Dance," except that the dance can only be performed while wielding a light or finessable one handed slashing or piercing weapon and the bonus to attack and damage apply to the weapon in question (rather than only slashing weapons). The bonus is +1 at 3rd level and increases by +1 every odd level thereafter. Song of Celerity: As the Bladesinger class feature except that this ability can be used once per encounter. A Bladesinger does not get another use of this ability per encounter at 8th level, but is merely able to quicken up to 4th level spells in this manner. Greater Spellsong: During any round in which a Bladesinger casts a spell she gains +10ft to her movement speed and a circumstance bonus to her AC and to all dexterity based checks equal to half her class level rounded down until her next turn. This bonus can only be applied once each round. Tireless Dance: As the Dervish class feature. Song of Arcane Fury: As the Daggerspell Mage class feature "Daggerspell Flurry," except that a Bladesinger must wield a light or finessable one handed slashing or piercing weapon rather than Daggers. So what do you think? Not entirely sure if it's too powerful or not, but I thought I'd give the class a revamp to perhaps shore up its weaknesses (especially when compared to newer base classes).
jradd777 10-23-07, 05:29 PM	You could go two major directions with where it's at currently To be more casterish, I'd say change to d6, add more +1 to caster levels, and probably to help balance out the casting, maybe reduce daily uses of the dance to 3. You could also make it more toward the martial bent but that would possibly require several changes to keep everything meshing together seemlessly. Overall, it's a pretty powerful PrC, but it has some pretty strict prereq's etc. and I love the flavor, good, solid work!
bkdubs123 10-23-07, 10:17 PM	I can't decide whether I want to lower the BAB to medium and increase the spellcaster levels (lowering the dance to 3/day and losing tireless dance) or leave it mostly as is. Thanks for the feedback though! I'd say it's probably on par with other half-caster PrCs out there (if perhaps a bit more powerful. a lot of the half-caster PrCs ended up a little on the weak side).
BananaB 10-24-07, 06:14 PM	I suggest just lowering the BAB to medium, giving 8/10 caster lvls and lowering the dance to 3/day and leaving it at that. That way you can keep class features without overpowering the class.
bkdubs123 10-24-07, 07:27 PM	I'm not sure about that just yet. The Bladesinger is supposed to be a more martially oriented class, and increasing caster levels actually just makes the class more powerful. Ideas I am considering: Lowering the HD to d6. Reducing Dance/day to 3. Removing Tireless Dance Reducing the effectiveness of Song of Celerity Any combination of the above.
bkdubs123 10-26-07, 01:44 AM	MORE FEEDBACK! (Consider this thread bumped)
bkdubs123 10-29-07, 06:11 AM	Bump-diddle-do.
jradd777 10-29-07, 02:08 PM	The more I look and think about it, I like it as-is. As I said it might be a tad powerful but giving it significantly more spellcasting and dropping other abilities, I agree would probably only worsen that condition. Maybe leave it, unless anyone has a strong argument as to why it's overpowered.
Mordin 10-29-07, 07:38 PM	Very awesome idea :D My only suggestion would be too broaden the weapons allowed maybe to any light or one-handed slashing or piercing weapon. One of my favorite things about the Bladesinger Kit from 2nd edition was that some though very rare bladesingers used alternate light or one-handed weapons such as the whip (elven long blade should be a no brainier).
Mordin 10-29-07, 08:28 PM	Also another thing that came to mind is I would probably move the +1 existing caster level to very even level. I know the prerequisites are tough but there are a lot of abilities at 1st level in addition to the bonus to a casting class. Just a thought. I just thought of one reason to leave Bladesong style alone Fox’s cunning, headband of intellect and so forth and so on. Again just my 2 cents.
bkdubs123 10-29-07, 10:05 PM	Good Points. Changing the caster levels to even levels instead of odd and allowing for light or finessable one-handed slashing or piercing weapons. I don't understand particularly though what you are getting at with the Bladesong Style comment.
Mordin 10-29-07, 11:21 PM	Good Points. Changing the caster levels to even levels instead of odd and allowing for light or finessable one-handed slashing or piercing weapons. I don't understand particularly though what you are getting at with the Bladesong Style comment. With the way you changed the Bladesong style your max bonus to AC is +5 at 10th level. Since this is a fighter/caster class if you leave the bladesong style alone with spells like Fox’s Cunning and other things like a headband of intellect a bladesinger can potentially raise the dodge bonus much higher than +5. Unless your using the reworked ability as a balancing thing. I hope I make more sense this time.
Lord Karsus 11-16-07, 04:31 PM	-An Alternative Bladesinger PrC (I was actually thinking of simply converting it to a Core Class) can be found in Elves of Faerūn, the link to which is in my Sig.