Post/Author/DateTime	Post
big_squirrel 12-01-07, 04:58 PM	Blessed Arcanist "Running out of spells, getting cornered by monsters and forced to take blows, and facing enemies who seem to brush off magical attacks makes many arcane casters pray for help in battle. Most stop their religious tendencies there, but a few, the ones that see desperate situations occur far too often, devote themselves to a deity, praying on a daily basis for help to keep the situations from getting quite so desperate. "These few, when they have fully devoted themselves, may become Blessed Arcanists, who trade magical ability to their deities in return for physical prowess, and who may one day be granted a glimpse into the magic of the divine realm." table Level BAB F/W Ref Special Spell Progression 1 0 2 0 Blessed Aim - 2 1 3 0 Sacred Armor +1 existing arcane class 3 2 3 1 Arcane Strike - 4 3 4 1 Sacred Strike +1 existing arcane class 5 3 4 1 Blessed Arcane Disciple +1 existing arcane class Hit Die: d6 Prerequisites Skills: 8 ranks in Concentration, 4 ranks in Knowledge (religion) and Spellcraft Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with deity's favored weapon Feats: Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon) Spells: Must be able to cast third level arcane spells Special: Must worship a deity with an alignment within one step of the character's alignment Class Skills Climb, Concentration, Craft, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Profession, Spellcraft, and Swim Skills per level: 2 + int modifier Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency: None gained. Abilities Blessed Aim: While using his deity's favored weapon, a Blessed Arcanist may add his Wisdom modifier to attack rolls. This bonus may not exceed his class level. Sacred Armor: At second level, a Blessed Arcanist may add his Wisdom modifier as a sacred bonus to AC. This bonus may not exceed his class level. Arcane Strike: At third level, a Blessed Arcanist gains Arcane Strike as a bonus feat. Sacred Strike: At fourth level, a Blessed Arcanist may add his Wisdom modifier as a bonus to damage rolls made with his deity's favored weapon. This bonus may not exceed twice his class level. Blessed Arcane Disciple: At fifth level, a Blessed Arcanist gains access to one of his deity's domains. This functions as Arcane Disciple, except the save Difficulty Class of the spells cast are determined by the character's primary casting ability instead of Wisdom. This ability also allows access to the domain's granted power. (In the cases where the strength of the domain's power would be determined by Cleric levels, such as with the Earth domain's pwer to turn air elementals and rebuke earth elementals, a Blessed Arcanist's effective Cleric level is 5 + Wisdom modifier.) Edits: 12/6 -Changed Blessed Aim from "gains a bonus to attack equal to his class level plus his wisdom modifier (minimum +1)" -Reworded Sacred Armor, but the ability is the same -Reworded Sacred Strike, but the ability is the same 12/4 part 2 -What dman said to do in his last post, I did. -Changed "Domain Access" to "Blessed Arcane Disciple". Exact same function, but better wording. And I wanted to get the word "blessed" in there one more time. -Put in how to determine effective Cleric level for the turning/rebuking allowed by some domains. It was easier to say 5 than "number of levels in Blessed Arcanist", so I went with 5. I figured no arcane caster is going to have an outrageous Wisdom score, so that part shouldn't be a problem. 12/4 part 1 -Added Climb, Jump and Swim to skills list -Added "not lost when targeted by incorpreal creatures" to Sacred Armor -Tweaked Blessed Strike to be a little more specific (only with deity's weapon, works even when critical/sneak attack damage wouldn't, and the list of things which do not stack) -Finally updated the table to say "Blessed Strike" instead of "Blessed Arcane Strike" 12/3 part 2 -Took out the section I added earlier today -Added Craft and Profession to class skills 12/3 part 1 -Added a preliminary "class skills by deity" section 12/2, part 2 -Changed Blessed Aim form "may use wisdom bonus in place of str/dex bonus for attack rolls" -Took out caster level gained at 3 -Level two, added Sacred Armor (thanks to dman for the idea) -Changed Blessed Strike from "the character may add his Wisdom modifier once per three levels of the spell (once for first through third level spells, twice for fourth through sixth, and three times for seventh through ninth) to total damage dealt" -Level four, added Sacred Strike (again, thanks dman) -Changed Domain access from "can only cast domain spells twice per day plus Wisdom modifier" -Added the need for a divine focus to cast domain spells: the character is devoted to a deity and is getting these spells in exchange for the devotion, so needing a divine focus makes sense to me 12/2 part 1 -Took out "skills from deity's domains" -Added a bit of a description. It needs more, probably, but that's the basic idea. 12/1 -Reduced skill points per level to 2 + int mod -Made fort/will saves good progression and reflex poor -Removed Combat Expertise as feat requirement (may be temporarily, see above) -Added one caster level gained at level five -Changed Blessed Aim description (from primary spellcasting modifier replacing str/dex bonus to attack) -Switched Domain access and Blessed Arcane Strike -Renamed Blessed Arcane Strike to Blessed Strike and changed the description from "spells sacrificed are considered one level higher for the purpose of attack and damage bonuses". Went with the scaled effect so the Wisdom bonus to damage wouldn't seem useless with the higher level spells. -Domain access changed from "add domain spells to spells known, no domain power granted" to try to limit posibile abuse of domain spells
dman11235 12-01-07, 05:41 PM	Spell check: weapon focus. Not foces. Go ahead and give it acces to the domain power as well. It's not as powerful as the spells know part. For example, if you took the healing domain: you'd get a wonderful, ever so awesome +1 CL on conjuration healing. But the real treasure is that now, you get to cast healing spells. Switch fort and will to good, and reflex to bad. That's more like divine casters. Also, switch blessed arcane strike with domain access. And, why combat expertise? And why five ranks in spell craft and knowledge (religion)? It does need fluff to sort out some problems, as in, class skills, prerequisites, and such. Not to much, just a brief explanation of what this class is about.
StevenO 12-01-07, 09:46 PM	I normally don't say this about a PrC but go to 4/5 spellcasting (skip 1st) although I'd make some other changes as well. Skill Points: Why have four when the basic arcane casters and cleric all have only two? "I need X number of skills" is NOT an excuse because everyone could come up with X+1 skills they think the NEED. Base Saves/BAB: I agree with dman' that the good save(s) should be WILL followed by FOR or even just FOR to represent some divine favor. Blessed Aim: NO. It may be weapon specific but I think it is too open ended given the potential swing in attack bonus. If this is "divine" aid I'd suggest just switching the attack to the WIS bonus or optionally add a divine bonus to the attack equal to (one half rounded up of) your WIS bonus. Divine inspiration comes from wisdom so should you attack aid. Domain Access: Use the 3.5 convention which grants the domain poiwer and makes the spells accessable but not automatic. A wizard may not break this so badly but for a Sorcerer an extra nine spells known for free is almost too good. I don't mind the 3.0 model that granted the spells as know to spontaneous casters but then I'd want a LOT more control over the domains selected as this class basically lets you pick any domain you like. Blessed Arcane Strike: Changing the action from free to swift isn't such a big deal. Perhaps you're that combat happy but at this point you should probably be casting spells. My change would be make this like Arcane Strike but allow any spell to be sacrificed. Note that if you make changes please do them in the first post but make sure we know what was there before to allow judging of the progress made.
big_squirrel 12-01-07, 11:46 PM	Can anyone give me a brief rundown on how an arcane caster might work the domain powers that are related to cleric and paladin? For instance, the turning thing in the elemental domains- should it be "class level equals your cleric level for the purposes of...", or is there already a guideline for that? dman- The purpose of Combat Expertise- The class gives the character a little better physical damage potential, and that feat was supposed to show the willingness to enter the battle, sort of thing, but I can see how it wouldn't be necessary, so I'm taking it out for now. Knowledge (religion) is there to show that the character is going to devote some of his studies to his deity, and spellcraft is there because he will need to know how to study divine spells and turn them into arcane spells. Why five ranks... I'm not sure. Maybe they should be four ranks each. I'm trying to think up a chart that would add class skills by the deity worshiped but I haven't seen anything like that for deities, only totem dragons for dragon shaman, so I'll have to start it from scratch. I'm going to try to get the beginnings of the list up sometime tomorrow, but it'll be a few days before I finish the whole thing. StevenO- I changed Blessed Strike to a swift action because I saw where people are debating if more than one Arcane Strike can be made at a time and wanted to avoid the trouble. I may change it to "free action useable once per round" instead. I had 4 + int mod for skill points per level because that was in my original class idea, which was completely remade on the fly when I was reorganizing it, and I didn't think to change the skill points gained.
dman11235 12-01-07, 11:52 PM	It's in the CDivine I believe. The reason I never said anything about skills is because I need fluff to judge it. Typically it will be 2+, but it's possible to be more. Oh, and you don't need to say "and the class skills associated with your deity's domains (see "Domans and Class Skills" in the Cleric section of the PHB)". It's automatic with the domain.
big_squirrel 12-02-07, 11:34 AM	I'm not very good at the short descriptions, but I tried to add one (obviously). The general idea behind the class is this: Arcane casters get caught in bad ways where magic isn't a viable option for some reason. Swinging at a mob with the weak BAB most arcane casters have is often useless, and they don't have a lot by way of other options aside from running away, so they turn to a god for help. They give up some amount of casting ability (and later individual spells, thus the Blessed Strike ability) for a bit of divine guidance in battle. For proving their devotion (meaning getting to fifth level), they're granted access to a domain, but since they still can't cast divine spells, they have to remake them into arcane spells (thus the requirement for spellcraft). The d6 represents the potential physical improvement, and Blessed Aim is a sort of... er... the god blessed the person to be better with a particular weapon. I thought a bit about an AC increase of some kind, almost certainly a dodge bonus if anything, but I don't know how to balance it.
dman11235 12-02-07, 03:59 PM	For weapon and armor proficiencies, add in all simple weapons. There is a sorcerer variant somewhere that grants a domain. Have it be like that, you can cast one domain spell per level per day. Or you could just refer them to the CDivine for how to handle gaining a domain as an arcane caster. Since no arcane caster will ever be based off of wisdom (i.e., have low wisdom), feel free to have it be just a straight addition, up to your class level. So a 5th level wizard/5th level blessed arcanist with 12 strength and 13 wisdom wielding a +1 weapon would have a +8 attack bonus. For blessed strike, no. It can't be adding your wisdom to damage once per three spell levels. Make it something else. Since this is a swift action instead of a free, make it slightly better than arcane strike, otherwise, why not use arcane strike? 1d6 per spell level, +1 per class level. Suggestion: remove one level of spell casting at level 3, and add the following. Pious Armor: At second level, a blessed arcanist may add his wisdom modifier to his AC as a sacred bonus. You may only add a value up to your class level. Sacred Strike: At fourth level, a blessed arcanist may add his wisdom modifier to damage, up to twice his class level. Removing that spell level more than compensates for blessed strike, so I added a couple new features to balance it out and fill in those other levels with something besides spells.
big_squirrel 12-02-07, 05:27 PM	Still working on the class skills thing. I managed to get my hands on a copy of Complete Divine long enough to see if the "skills by deity" thing was in there, but I didn't see it. I'm going to look for Deities and Demigods and check that one next. This is mostly just a bump post. I know you folks probably aren't interested in a detailed description of what I'm doing =P
big_squirrel 12-03-07, 12:56 AM	Early version of the skills by deity chart is up, but needs a lot of work. I'm sticking with the core deities for this, and I'm trying to avoid the more... I'll go with spectacular here. I'm trying to avoid the more spectacular skills like disable device, open lock, and use magic device. Actually, just those three of what I can remember off hand. If anyone can figure out a good way to judge what skills should be added by deity worshiped... I'll worship you. Not for long stretches of time, probably just a few seconds, but it's something at least.
dman11235 12-03-07, 04:39 PM	It would be under getting domains as a non-cleric. Section is called Extra Domains. It's right before the PrCs. But I just remembered, and i don't know why I didn't realize earlier, getting the skills as a class list is not a domain power (even though it comes with a domain). It is part of the cleric class, so you won't add the skills associated to your class skill list. So it shouldn't add to your class skill list based off deity.
big_squirrel 12-03-07, 10:18 PM	I'm thinking that it would make sense if this class's skill list included some of the physical skills- climb, jump, swim, those sorts of things. The class is, after all, aimed at making the character a little more physically capable, although it has really only been centered on combat. Also, I'm going to put Craft and Profession up for sure as they're on most class skill lists, unless someone knows a reason why they shouldn't be included. Either way, I'm taking out he skills by deity chart for now. Would there be a way to broaden Blessed Strike into not just being offensive? I'm trying to think of a way to make it cover defensive as well, since the class is about improving both offense and defense. This is what I'm thinking: Arcane and divine spells can both be sacrificed, and the bonus can apply offensively like Arcane Strike (+1 attack and +1d4 damage per spell level) but only with the deity's favored weapon, or it can be applied defensively by giving an armor bonus equal to the spell's level and maybe half that, rounded up, to reflex and fortitude saves, and it is not possible to have both active at the same time. With that defensive application added, the ability might be a little overpowered and might need a maximum bonus of some kind, like maybe max for both applications would be a bonus equal to the class level plus wisdom modifier, so a character with three levels in Blessed Arcanist with a wisdom score of 13 could only get the benefits of up to either +4 attack/+4d4 damage, or +4AC/+2 fort and reflex, even if the sacrificed spell was of a higher level. The only name I can come up with is "Spell Power Exchange", so that's how I'll refer to it for now. If anyone thinks up a better name, which shouldn't be too hard, let me know.
dman11235 12-04-07, 02:15 AM	Both of those should be on most class skill lists, and craft should be on all (imo). For the defence thing you could take my suggestion from a couple posts ago. And if you want an additional boost when you blessed strike, make it +1 AC per spell level, +1 attack per spell level, and +1d4 damage per spell level. Leave it as a swift action that doesn't stack with arcane strike, and take out another spell casting level. Might be balanced. I let you make any updates you want right now and then look at it, as I'm not entirely sure how it's going to play out now.
big_squirrel 12-04-07, 11:38 AM	Actually, I think I'm going to leave it pretty much as is for now and just make small tweaks. I think this idea works for what I had in mind, so now it's down to making sure it's balanced. And, of course, finishing the class skills list. Oh, and I'd like to keep it as no weapon proficiencies gain because it works with the devotion to the single deity. If that makes the class slightly less powerful, no worries, because I think it's as powerful as my DM would allow. :P
big_squirrel 12-04-07, 05:51 PM	Finished what tweaks I would make, so that's not changing unless suggestions are made, and ran out of skills for the class skills list that would make any sense, so I'm also leaving that as-is unless someone thinks of something. Alrighty- feel free to make me cry now. Or just stick with judging the PrC, whichever is more fun.
dman11235 12-04-07, 06:21 PM	You don't need to say that the sarced armor works like mage armor. In fact, that makes it more confusing. Just get rid of that sentance, sacred bonuses to AC apply to ALL AC forms. Make it 4 ranks knowledge (religion) and 4 ranks spellcraft for the prereq (exactly max for cross-class). You should follow the CDiv way of adding domains (keeps it simple). As in, spells are added to spell list, not spells known, and they are arcane spells, requiring your primary stat, not wisdom, to determine things. Blessed Strike should stack with SA and SS and skirmish, they are from completely different things, and that rogue/beguiler out there can stack SA and arcane strike as well. Just have it not stack with arcane strike. Or just give them arcane strike as a bonus feat. This is the best option.
big_squirrel 12-04-07, 10:55 PM	Should be all done now. Think it's up for actually trying out now?
dman11235 12-04-07, 11:49 PM	I think it's fine now. It will need the trying to be certain, but I don't see anything wrong with it.
big_squirrel 12-04-07, 11:54 PM	Awesome. Thanks for all the help, Dman^^ Over and out, as they say.
StevenO 12-05-07, 02:35 PM	Reading over the revisions and I don't think they are too bad. Blessed Aim is a touch too good when you consider it is possible to enter the class having only lost +1 BAB. I suggest dropping the bonus down to one half your class level plus WIS modifier. If you dropped the class's BAB back to 1/2 I'd have that "half" round up which would almost make this equivalent to a full BAB class when using the Deities Favored Weapon. Sacred Strike should stay limited to you class level as well.
dman11235 12-05-07, 04:58 PM	That bonus has a potential to be more than the one I had. Heck, the way it is now, it's just your wisdom, max 5. That way, it's your whole wisdom, plus more. And Sacred strike IS limited by class level, just 2x. Remember, damage boosts are not as good as attack boosts. And you'd need a REALLY good stat set to make full use of both AND have decent spell casting. And this wisdom thing is no substitute for either con or str or dex, so MAD has been increased. You need dex, con, wis, and primarily int or cha (depending), with str on the side. That's as bad as the monk. You can dump str or dex (not advised the dex: no armor), but that's still four stats.
StevenO 12-05-07, 08:11 PM	What bonus has more potential? As I read the class now Blessed Aim says "While using his deity's favored weapon, a Blessed Arcanist gains a bonus to attack equal to his class level plus his wisdom modifier" which is always going to give more than my suggestion of using half the class level. It is more than just adding your WIS bonus up to your class level (which probably is fine) but that isn't what I read in the first post. I can see MAD problem and know damage is usually "cheaper" than attack but limiting Sacred Strikes damage to the straight class level keeps it in line with a lot more abilities.
dman11235 12-06-07, 12:44 AM	Huh? It's adding your wisdom, maxxed out at your class level. Blessed Aim: While using his deity's favored weapon, a Blessed Arcanist may add his Wisdom modifier to attack rolls. This bonus may not exceed his class level. That's what I've got.
big_squirrel 12-06-07, 12:53 AM	I misread what dman had suggested in his earlier post about how Blessed Aim should work- somehow, I thought he had said "Wsidom modifier and your class level." I forgot to change it before, but it's fixed now. I'd chime in on the Sacred Strike thing, but the way I see it, either way it'll max at a bonus of +5 in almost every situation, so it's really just about the wording. Getting Wisdom higher isn't practical after it stops increasing attack and AC, and if I want to go with a relatively unimportant stat increase, Strength would make more sense. Either way, you two let me know if and how it should be changed and I'll almost certainly do it.
big_squirrel 12-06-07, 12:55 AM	I just updated that before you posted, dman- you managed to get your post in between my edit and my post about why I editted. StevenO was write about how it was worded at the time of his post, though, so no worries, sorry about the confusion^^;
dman11235 12-06-07, 01:18 AM	Oh. Alrighty then.
StevenO 12-06-07, 02:04 AM	Which of course is why it is good to change things in the first thread and track the changes made. My first post makes almost no sense what so ever looking an the class right now.