Post/Author/DateTime	Post
QOShea 11-05-07, 07:03 PM	Brutal Thrower PrC (5 Level PrC) It has been said that the Brutal Thrower is to the Master Thrower what a greatsword is to a rapier. The practioner of this style isn't worried about finesse or great agility, but power. Brutal Throwers are typically fighters who rely upon raw strength to dispatch their enemies. Generally inclined to plate mail and two-handed weapons, one would not consider them to be a threat outside of arms reach ... until a greataxe goes hurtling through the air into the target. While they do not have any real distinguishing marks, they each generally carry multiple weapons of their preferred type. Entry Requirements Base Attack Bonus: +5 Feats: Brutal Throw, Power Throw, Point Blank Shot Hit Die: d10 Skills: Climb (Str), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Swim (Str) Skill Points: 2 + INT Class Attack Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Throw Anything, Throwing Familiarity I 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Hurtling Throw 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Knockdown Blow, Throwing Familiarity II 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Deadeye Shot 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Penetrating Throw, Throwing Familiarity III Throw Anything [Ex]: Gain this feat, can only be used with weapons you are proficient with. Throwing Familiarity I [Ex]: You can throw one-handed weapons as an attack action. Hurtling Throw [Ex]: The range increment for melee weapons thrown via the Throw Anything feat increases from 10' to 20' Knockdown Blow [Ex]: As a full-round action, you may attempt to knock down a target with a ranged attack. Make a ranged touch attack roll, which deals one-half normal damage if it hits. If you succeed on this attack, the target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity check (whichever is better) that opposes your attack roll, or be knocked prone in addition to taking the hit point damage. This ability may be used once per day per class level. Throwing Familiarity II [Ex]: You can throw two-handed weapons as a standard action. Deadeye Shot [Ex]: You may increase Critical multiplier for one type of weapon when thrown (ex: greatsword, battle axes, etc.) ; chosen upon reaching this level Penetrating Throw [Ex]: You may make a ranged attack which targets every foe in a 20' line. Throwing Familiarity III [Ex]: You can throw two-handed weapons as an attack action.
RobbyPants 11-07-07, 10:47 AM	This seems like a cool enough PrC. A couple of points: The level 3 ability Knockdown Blow - Perhaps a better way to do this would be opposed Str checks with the usual size modifiers (similar to a bullrush). Weapon damage and Str modifiers really aren't on the same scale. Also, this could probably be accomplished with a ranged trip mechanic. The level 4 ability Deadeye Shot - This one seems like the most abusable to me, but it requires a 4 level dip, so I don't know that it's too bad. The level 5 ability Penetrating Throw - This one is actually kind of cool. There is a weapon enchantment (I forgot the name) in Complete Warrior that does something similar. Basically, after each successful hit, the weapon travels to the next target in line, but each target beyond the first gets a cumulative +4 bonus to AC (+4 for the 2nd target, +8 for the 3rd, +12 for the 4th, etc...). The weapon continues until either you miss an attack roll or it hits something solid (presumably that it doesn't deal enough damage to break). Anyway, I thought I'd point you to a similar mechanic that you might want to use. It's a little more complicated than a 20' line, but it's potentially more powerful. Anyway, cool idea. Good luck tweaking it. :D EDIT: One other thing you might want to add (possibly at 1st level) is to reduce the speed of throwing non-light weapons. Normally, throwing a one-handed weapon that isn't meant to be thrown is a standard action (not an attack action), and throwing a two-hander is a full-round action. I don't think the Throw Anything feat covers this, so you might want to add it in. Otherwise, you can only ever throw one non-light weapon per round. Also, on the list of prereqs I saw Power Throw. What book is that one in?
QOShea 11-07-07, 12:06 PM	This seems like a cool enough PrC. A couple of points: The level 3 ability Knockdown Blow - Perhaps a better way to do this would be opposed Str checks with the usual size modifiers (similar to a bullrush). Weapon damage and Str modifiers really aren't on the same scale. Also, this could probably be accomplished with a ranged trip mechanic. I will check that out and see if the adjustment will work out. The level 4 ability Deadeye Shot - This one seems like the most abusable to me, but it requires a 4 level dip, so I don't know that it's too bad. Deadeye Shot also only applies to one weapon and only when it is thrown. Granted, you could get a Greataxe with a x4 crit, but you still have to roll that magic number. The level 5 ability Penetrating Throw - This one is actually kind of cool. There is a weapon enchantment (I forgot the name) in Complete Warrior that does something similar. Basically, after each successful hit, the weapon travels to the next target in line, but each target beyond the first gets a cumulative +4 bonus to AC (+4 for the 2nd target, +8 for the 3rd, +12 for the 4th, etc...). The weapon continues until either you miss an attack roll or it hits something solid (presumably that it doesn't deal enough damage to break). Anyway, I thought I'd point you to a similar mechanic that you might want to use. It's a little more complicated than a 20' line, but it's potentially more powerful. I based this off of the Penetrating Shot feat in the PH2, an earlier version of the class had it still as 60'. Anyway, cool idea. Good luck tweaking it. :D Thanks, I'm hoping I can get this finished in time to play test it with my half-orc. EDIT: One other thing you might want to add (possibly at 1st level) is to reduce the speed of throwing non-light weapons. Normally, throwing a one-handed weapon that isn't meant to be thrown is a standard action (not an attack action), and throwing a two-hander is a full-round action. I don't think the Throw Anything feat covers this, so you might want to add it in. Otherwise, you can only ever throw one non-light weapon per round. I did not know that. I will have to redo that part. Also, on the list of prereqs I saw Power Throw. What book is that one in? Power Throw is in the Complete Adventurer. It is Power Attack, but for thrown weapons. Thanks for the input!
karossii 11-07-07, 12:11 PM	Brutal Thrower PrC (5 Level PrC) It has been said that the Brutal Thrower is to the Master Thrower what a greatsword is to a rapier. The practioner of this style isn't worried about finesse or great agility, but power. Brutal Throwers are typically fighters who rely upon raw strength to dispatch their enemies. Generally inclined to plate mail and two-handed weapons, one would not consider them to be a threat outside of arms reach ... until a greataxe goes hurtling through the air into the target. While they do not have any real distinguishing marks, they each generally carry multiple weapons of their preferred type. Brutal Thrower PrC Entry Requirements Base Attack Bonus: +5 Feats: Brutal Throw, Power Throw, Point Blank Shot Hit Die: d10 BAB - Good; FORT - Good; REF - POOR; WILL - POOR A fighter-style class with d10 hit dice and 2 good saves? I'd drop Reflex, it doesn't seem to fit the 'brutal power-focused' concept you're going for anyway. You also need a skills list, and I would suggest 2 skill points/level, as most fighters get. Level 1 - Gain Throw Anything feat even if they do not meet the requirementsSimple, works. Level 2 - Hurtling Throw: range increments for thrown melee weapons double to 20'You might want to state something like " increases by 10' " instead - you could have other feats playing with range increments, and doubling could get wonky. Or, maybe you're counting on that? I'd stick to +10' per range increment. Level 3 - Knockdown Blow: STR check greater than damage done or be knocked prone.Not balanced, as mentioned above. You'd almost always be knocking them down AND dealing damage. There are already mechanics for ranged trip attacks, use those (basically, you get a standard trip attack at one range increment, but they do not have a chance to retaliate if you fail). You might give a slight bonus, such as treating the weapon as one size category larger than yourself... Level 4 - Deadeye Shot: increase Crit multiplier for one type of weapon when thrown; chosen upon reaching this levelThis works fine. Level 5 - Penetrating Throw: ranged attack targets every foe in a 20' lineI'd also go with the above poster on this - there are actually two existing mechanics, one a feat and one a weapon enhancement. They are both fairly similar; you get to make extra attacks against everything in a straight line, and it keeps going until you reach maximum range (5 range increments), or you fail to damage something. Each opponent after the first gains a cumulative +2 or +4 to AC. If I remember right, the feat was limited to one range increment, and gave each opponent after the first a cumulative +2 to AC; the weapon enhancement was limited only by the full range, but gave each opponent after the first a cumulative +4 to AC (plus the range penalty as you move through increments). I could be remembering wrong, as I never actually used either and its been a while since I went over those in my books. But in either case, you may want to look them both up for assistance. -={ summary }=- I think you have a good concept, and made a good attempt to create it into a PrC. It just needs a little fiddling with to be balanced. If you still want all of the power you give above, I'd say you need to add in a few empty levels - bump it up to a 10 level PrC, and throw in one or two (at most) small extras, like a bonus feat or something. Otherwise, make some changes to tone it down, either the above suggestions or something else, and keep it at 5.
QOShea 11-07-07, 12:30 PM	A fighter-style class with d10 hit dice and 2 good saves? I'd drop Reflex, it doesn't seem to fit the 'brutal power-focused' concept you're going for anyway. You also need a skills list, and I would suggest 2 skill points/level, as most fighters get. I think you misread what I posted. The BAB is Good; FORT is Good; REFLEX is Poor; WILL is Poor. I'm working on the skill list as I get time, probably going to stick with just the fighter skills for the most part. Skill points will be 2/level You might want to state something like " increases by 10' " instead - you could have other feats playing with range increments, and doubling could get wonky. Or, maybe you're counting on that? I'd stick to +10' per range increment. I know Far Shot increases the range increment by half, but I thought that was the only one. Melee weapons normally have a range increment of 10', so I simply doubled that. Not balanced, as mentioned above. You'd almost always be knocking them down AND dealing damage. There are already mechanics for ranged trip attacks, use those (basically, you get a standard trip attack at one range increment, but they do not have a chance to retaliate if you fail). You might give a slight bonus, such as treating the weapon as one size category larger than yourself... I will be working on this, probably this evening when I can get to my books. I'd also go with the above poster on this - there are actually two existing mechanics, one a feat and one a weapon enhancement. They are both fairly similar; you get to make extra attacks against everything in a straight line, and it keeps going until you reach maximum range (5 range increments), or you fail to damage something. Each opponent after the first gains a cumulative +2 or +4 to AC. If I remember right, the feat was limited to one range increment, and gave each opponent after the first a cumulative +2 to AC; the weapon enhancement was limited only by the full range, but gave each opponent after the first a cumulative +4 to AC (plus the range penalty as you move through increments). I could be remembering wrong, as I never actually used either and its been a while since I went over those in my books. But in either case, you may want to look them both up for assistance. This was based off of the feat Penetrating Shot, which had a 60' range with no AC bonus to subsequent targets. -={ summary }=- I think you have a good concept, and made a good attempt to create it into a PrC. It just needs a little fiddling with to be balanced. If you still want all of the power you give above, I'd say you need to add in a few empty levels - bump it up to a 10 level PrC, and throw in one or two (at most) small extras, like a bonus feat or something. Otherwise, make some changes to tone it down, either the above suggestions or something else, and keep it at 5. Thanks for the input, I will be changing a few things that both you and Robby commented on.
RobbyPants 11-07-07, 02:07 PM	Maybe I'm not looking at the big picture, but I don't see this as a very overpowered PrC, but rather, more of a flavorful one. That being said, I think you could probably make it so any weapon you throw can be thrown as an attack option at level 1. Of course, I'm away from my books, and for all I know, Throw Anything might already do that.
QOShea 11-07-07, 02:09 PM	I've updated the level abilities for levels 1 - 3. Level 1 - removed 'throw two-handed weapons as a standard action'. Level 2 - Clarified the range increments Level 3 - Changed from STR check to Reflex save, added 'throw two-handed weapons as a standard action'.
karossii 11-07-07, 05:57 PM	you're right - I misread that on the saves. Maybe its the lack of a table which is the root of that problem...you obviously are familiar with UBB code, so why not spend the extra minute to present the class properly? I'll start you off... Entry Requirements Base Attack Bonus: +5 Feats: Brutal Throw, Power Throw, Point Blank Shot Hit Die: d10 Skills: TBD Skill Points: 2 + INT Class Attack Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Throw Anything, Throwing Familiarity I 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Hurtling Throw 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Knockdown Blow, Throwing Familiarity II 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Deadeye Shot 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Penetrating Throw, Throwing Familiarity III Throw Anything [Ex]: Gain this feat even if they do not meet the requirements. Throwing Familiarity I [Ex]: You can throw one-handed weapons as an attack action. Hurtling Throw [Ex]: The range increment for melee weapons thrown via the Throw Anything feat increases from 10' to 20' Knockdown Blow [Ex]: On a successful ranged attack, the target must succeed a Reflex save (DC = damage dealt) or be knocked prone. Throwing Familiarity II [Ex]: You can throw two-handed weapons as a standard action. Deadeye Shot [Ex]: You may increase Critical multiplier for one type of weapon when thrown; chosen upon reaching this level Penetrating Throw [Ex]: You may make a ranged attack which targets every foe in a 20' line. Throwing Familiarity III [Ex]: You can throw two-handed weapons as an attack action. I like most of your changes, except knockdown blow. I still disagree with using damage dealt as a saving throw DC in this case. It is almost a given that the target will fail, assuming even mild optimization of the character. Additionally, you are allowing damage and trip in a single attack action. And finally, you do not mention what type of action it requires (thus the attack action assumption), nor a limit on the use of this ability. My suggested change; Knockdown Blow [Ex]: As a full-round action, you may attempt to knock down a target with a ranged attack. Make a ranged touch attack roll, which deals normal damage if it hits. If you succeed on this attack, the target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity check (whichever is better) that opposes your attack roll, or be knocked prone in addition to taking the hit point damage. This ability may be used once per day per class level. Even that isn't perfect and would need to be reviewed and probably tweaked, but I think it is a step in the right direction.
QOShea 11-07-07, 06:10 PM	you're right - I misread that on the saves. Maybe its the lack of a table which is the root of that problem...you obviously are familiar with UBB code, so why not spend the extra minute to present the class properly? Actually, I'm not familiar with UBB code. I couldn't make heads or tails out of most of it, just the sblock one. :embarrass I'm working on refining the abilities now. I also like your refinement of Knockdown Blow, but if I make it a ranged touch, I think I will drop the damage to one-half normal since the check is vs the attack roll.
karossii 11-07-07, 06:38 PM	Okay, well seeing someone using formatting (bold and italics) as well as sblocks makes one assume that someone is familiar with UBB. Basically, the table layout I used uses the {code} and {/code} tags... though with square brackets. Everything in a code block is monospaced (like courier font), and it pays attention to the tab character instead of treating it like a space. So what you do is open notepad or a word processor and type out the text of a table in courier, spacing the columns with tabs. Then, you simply copy/paste that into a code block. Or, alternately, what I did above, just open notepad and press tab, then copy the tab. While typing up your 'table', hit paste (right click paste, ctrl+v, or edit -> paste) wherever you need the tab. I have a standard header I use for all class and prestige class tables, feel free to copy it and use it on anything you'd like in the future... {code} {b}Class Attack Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save CL Special{/b} {/code} Note the extra column for caster level - delete it in non-casting classes. Also, change all of the braces to square brackets. It doesn't look lined up, because it isn't processing the UBB code and the bold tag is throwing off the top line. It works though.
QOShea 11-07-07, 09:11 PM	I've updated the formatting (thanks to karossi), added the skills, and adjusted the Level 3 ability.