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| MageSparrowhawk02-02-07, 06:16 PM | Here's the idea: You already have a half dragon, and wish to become a full dragon. :dragon: Half-dragon_Ascendant Hit Die: d12 Requirements Race: Half-Dragon B.A.B.: +5 Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 10 ranks Feats: Dragon Breath or Draconic Wings or Draconic Tail Spells: Spontanously cast 2nd level arcane spells Special: You must find one of your dragon relatives (parent is best), or at least a dragon of your variety of adult age or older. Class Skills Listen, search, spot, concentration, diplomacy, escape artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any(too much?)), sense motive, use magic device, plus any noted in your dragon's type. Skill points per level: (6+int) The Half-Dragon Ascendant must have at least half of it's spells at each level have a subtype the same as it's dragon type (e.g. half red dragon must have more 1st, 2nd, etc. fire spells than any other type). level-BAB-Fort-Reflex-Will--special------------------------spell casting 1____+1_+0___+0___+0___Dragon Essence _______________________Draconic Familliar _______________________Frightful Interaction 2____+2_+1___+1___+1___Improved Natural Armor________+1 level of existing Spontanous arcane spellcasting class 3____+3_+1___+1___+1___Draconic form (1/day)_________+1 level 4____+4_+2___+2___+2___Damage Reduction ________________________Blindsense 5____+5_+2___+2___+2___Spell Resistance_______________+1 level _______________________Frightful Presence 6____+6_+3___+3___+3___Draconic Form (2/day)__________+1 level 7____+7_+3___+3___+3___Improved Breath Weapon 8____+8_+4___+4___+4___Greater Improved Natural Armor__+1 level 9____+9_+4___+4___+4___Draconic Form (3/day)__________+1 level 10__+10_+5___+5___+5 11__+11_+5___+5___+5___Improved Natural Weapons______+1 level 12__+12_+6___+6___+6___Draconic form (4/day)__________+1 level 13__+13_+6___+6___+6___Attack Form Specialization 14 __+14_+7___+7___+7___Scaled Armor_________________+1 level 15__+15_+8___+8___+8___Draconic Ascension_____________+1 level _______________________Draconic form (5/day) Dragon Essence: Each level of Draconic Ascendant you gain is treated as a racial hit die. This increases your HD based abilities accordingly. Also, after every 5th level you must be with the dragon relative for a number of days equal to your class level. Draconic Familliar: You loose your familliar, with the equivilent penalties. You may choose another familliar, and it gains the draconic template. You are treated as a character of half of your Draconic Ascendant level for the purposes of your familliar. Frightful interaction: People are disturbed and made nervous by your presense. Add one half your class level to intimidate checks, but subtract your class level from diplomacy and gather information checks. You can scare people into doing what you want, but you have a harder time relating to them. Improved Natural Armor: Gain a +2 bonus to your natural armor. Draconic form: Once a day for every 3 levels (starting at 3rd), the Draconic Ascendant can take the form of a true dragon of her type. The form's HD can be no higher than her ECL+5. She gains the size, type, speed, AC, attacks, space/reach, special attacks, special qualities Str, Dex, and Con of the form. She does not gain any spellcasting from the change, and only has 3/4 BAB progression while in dragon form. This lasts for 1 round/level + your Cha bonus Damage Reduction: You gain damage reduction equal to the damage reduction of the draconic form you take. Blindsense: you gain blindsense out to 20'. This improves by another 20' every 4 levels. Frightful Presence: You gain the frightful presence of the draconic form you take. The save is figured the same as a dragon. Spell Resistance: You gain spell resistance equal to the spell resistance of the draconic form you take. Improved Breath Weapon: Your breath weapon now deals 6d10 damage and the save increases by 2. Greater Improved Natural Armor: Gain an aditional +2 bonus to your natural armor. Scaled Armor: Any AC bonus you recieve from light armor you wear is instead treated as an enhancement bonus to natural armor up to a maximum of your normal natural armor bonus. This results in no arcane spell failure and no armor check penalties for the armor-but you still can't wear another suit of armor. Attack Form Specialization: Depending on which feat(s) you have-draconic wings, tail, or breath- you gain an aditional abillity: Tail sweep, wing slam, or Ally friendly breath. Your tail sweep affects a half circle around you, out to 5 feet every 5 levels. the wing slam grants you 2 bludgeoning attacks for 1d4+1/2 Str. Ally friendly breath allows you to use your breath weapon without the fear toasting your allies. Your breath weapon now only affects who you want it to in it's area ie, allies take no damage in the area. your breath weapon also affects +10 feet (if a cone) or +20 (if a line). You also gain shape breath as the feat. All of these abilities are only effective in your natural form (and half-dragon form if applicable). Improved Natural Weapons: All your natural weapons are treated as one size larger. This ability is only effective in your natural form (and half-dragon form if applicable). This does not grant you any extra attack forms. Draconic Ascension: Once you reach 10th level, the draconic form becomes your "true form" though you still can only take this form the pre-defined number of times per day (note-the Half-Dragon form is also its true form, so you can't force yourself into your "true form" with magic, etc.). This means you can start taking feats, prestige classes, etc. that that form meets the requirements for. And that's how it goes...hopefully the changes have made it far more balanced |
| The_Shaman02-02-07, 07:51 PM | Hm, isn't being a half-dragon mean you can take draconic feats anyway? |
| MageSparrowhawk02-02-07, 08:02 PM | What draconic feats? the Prerequsites? |
| runestar02-02-07, 10:29 PM | technically, there is the epic dragon disciple prc... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20021208a |
| MageSparrowhawk02-02-07, 10:41 PM | two things--one, this isn't supposed to be a lead off from the dragon disciple class; and two, this is for non epic characters (as far as I know your ECL will be exactly 20 at the end) besides, that just turns you into a near-dragon icky thing :P |
| syrinth02-02-07, 11:31 PM | Firstly meeting the reqs for this feat aren't very pleasant. Lets just do a quick level progression and see what we can meet. ECL7 Lvl 4 Sorcerer: Casting requirement met. BAB of +2 ECL10 Lvl 7 Sorcerer: Skill ranks met, BAB of +3 (can't work) ECL10 Lvl 4 Sorcerer/Lvl 3 Rogue: Skill ranks met, BAB of +4 (can't work) ECL10 Lvl 4 Sorcerer/Lvl 3 Fighter: Skill ranks not met, BAB of +5 (can't work) I highly HIGHLY suggest removing the BAB requirement. HIGHLY lol :P Aside form that, here come my comments. 1.Do you gain full casting progression? Or just one at level one it doesn't really say... 2. Skill points should probably be those of the dragon that they are becoming, I don't know what they are off hand or if they change from dragon to dragon(I'd imagine so) but I'm sure you can find out if that suits your needs. 3. Dragon essence isn't really required since you don't need to justify the hd and skill points granted in a class. If there is no other actual in-game benefit to "getting a level of dragon" aside from HD and skill points that I'm overlooking you should probably get rid of it. You could just say that your breath weapon's DC is based off class level and not dragon HD and simplify it :D 4. Dragon form? NO, just no! At the very least change it to be based off the dragon's HD and NOT their CR because that would be BAD. Remember, the CR system is far from perfect and it is also based off of the assumption that it'll be fighting four PCs. So you are essentially giving one character the ability to turn into a creature capable of challenging (and probably TPKing) the entire party. Maybe give him a +5 bonus to the HD cap so he can turn into a dragon of his HD+5 or something along those lines. CR=ECL is a bad bad idea because it's not true :D (For example a Young Adult Green dragon is a CR of 11 but has 17 HD, this is so not good on so many not good levels) 5. Change damage reduction to be equal to your class level. Makes things a bit more simpler I think. 6. As for element bolt, I would not suggest it since dragon's don't relaly have anything like that. If you insist on keeping it do NOT give it a +5 bonus to hit and I'd probably halve the damage or maybe 6d8 max since warlocks at lvl 20 only deal 9d6 with no attack bonus. 7. As for the SR maybe beef it up just a tad. Maybe 10 or 7 + HD would be better since you do have the 3 LA from being a half-dragon to deal with. 8. About improved natural attack I'd suggest adding the stipulation of when you're not in your dragon or "true" form since then you'd be essentially getting a bunch of free feats as well as a pretty new form. 9. Few comments about dragon form now that I think about it again, make it once per day for every three class levels, that way it scales and isn't too too too powerful when you first get it. Well that's my comments done. Of course, none of this is gospel or law and should be taken as you see fit. Should any of my comments seem mean or hurtful I apologize as they are most certainly not intended to be. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-02-07, 11:47 PM | A couple of questions 1-how doesn't a 4soc 3ftr build not get you 10 ranks in knowledge (arcana)? remember, half-dragons get (6+int)x3 skill points yes, full casting progression -changed- still working on skill points ok, changed essence, might be better now :blush: changed dragon form, might be better now DR has been improved silly me, I forgot I had already decided to give them something different for their breath weapon improvement SR...oops Improved ability?...ok, if you say so good thought...that's what I was going for anyway :confused: --> :lightbulb --> :D |
| syrinth02-03-07, 12:00 AM | From the SRD Skills: A half-dragon gains skill points as a dragon and has skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier) x(HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-dragon gains dragon skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class. As far as I can tell the half-dragon in question wouldn't actually gain any additional skill points for his sorcerer or fighter levels because they aren't dragon HD levels(although I admit I may be wrong there but I don't think I am) Either way, knowledge(arcana) is not a fighter class skill and, according to the SRD, the half-dragon template does not add it to all of your class's class skills lists. That means that you can't take it as a fighter class skill and it is therefore a cross-class which means you can't make the 10 ranks by level 7. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think I am about that. As for what I meant about the improved natural attacks I meant the following. You are most likely going to be a medium creature with this. If so, then your attacks will deal damage as a large creature and you will have two claws and a bite as well as potentially a tail attack or wing slam. All of these will deal damage as a large creature and you get this for free. Remember that Improved Natural Attack only affects one of their attack forms so this is essentially giving them two to three free additional feats. This in itself isn't very bad and kind of suggests an additional supernatural power behind them. If the ability remains in dragon form then, as said, ALL of their natural attacks are treated as having improved natural attack. All of them. Bite, claw, wing attack and tail slap. Your character now hits at a base harder than a dragon and that seems kind scary to me to mix in with full base casting progression. I could be wrong about that though and it is ultimately your choice:P |
| MageSparrowhawk02-03-07, 12:10 AM | how's that? btw, what is the max skill rank in arcana you can get, given say a 14 in Int? (12+2 from 1/2 dragon) |
| syrinth02-03-07, 12:10 AM | How's what? the skills or the natural attacks? |
| MageSparrowhawk02-03-07, 12:12 AM | skills---check the (now revised) description |
| syrinth02-03-07, 12:16 AM | Deleted due to sheer idiocy. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-03-07, 12:23 AM | Is 8 the max you can get easily given a 14 int?...besides, you can just take a level of Soc first to add Knowledge (arcana) to your class list, and then any levels of other classes you take can add their skills to (arcana) with no fuss -pg 59 of the PHB agrees with me too- |
| syrinth02-03-07, 12:33 AM | Deleted due to sheer idiocy. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-03-07, 12:38 AM | are you adding in the minimum of 18 more skill points from being a half-dragon? |
| syrinth02-03-07, 12:39 AM | Deleted due to sheer idiocy. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-03-07, 12:43 AM | That is where you're wrong PHB "If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character's classes then character level determines a skill's maximum rank" Pg 59 under multiclass characters |
| syrinth02-03-07, 12:43 AM | Yup, a friend of mine just corrected me. How very very strange that I never ever EVER noticed that O.o If you'll excuse me I'm going to go delete all my former posts on that subject. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-03-07, 12:45 AM | So how does the revised Prc look to you now? |
| syrinth02-03-07, 12:48 AM | Looks decent to me although I can't guarantee anything about balance. To me at least, it seems like it's fine but I'm just one person :D |
| MageSparrowhawk02-03-07, 12:53 AM | Lets let it go for the weekend and see what it looks like then. btw, this is all in preperation to submit an elf/force dragon Ftr/Soc/HalfDragAsc to the Character optimization boards :D :D |
| MageSparrowhawk02-03-07, 10:54 AM | :bump: |
| MageSparrowhawk02-03-07, 01:52 PM | Anyone else have any suggestions? I need to know if this is balanced or not; and if not, how I can fix it. |
| Jaxgaret02-03-07, 04:21 PM | I may be off base here... but it seems way overpowered. I can see a Half-Dragon Duskblade7/Dragon Ascendant kicking a whole lot of ass. A Half-Dragon BattleSorcerer7/Dragon Ascendant can be rocking as well. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-03-07, 04:25 PM | I actually did think of that, mostly because you have to be at -least- 10th level before you start taking levels. However if you can point out any really overpowered things I could change without killing the theme, that would be helpful. |
| Jaxgaret02-03-07, 04:27 PM | I actually did think of that, mostly because you have to be at -least- 10th level before you start taking levels. However if you can point out any really overpowered things I could change without killing the theme, that would be helpful. Honestly, it seems like an Epic PrC to me. IMHO you would be better off remaking it as such. |
| benstundze02-03-07, 04:42 PM | Please tell me if i catigorized your class corectly PrC Compendium (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=784585) ben |
| MageSparrowhawk02-03-07, 05:28 PM | To Ben--This is suposed to be a fighter/sorcerer Prc-note the full spell progression To Jax--This is supposed to be non epic; I may create an epic continuation of it in the future, but not now |
| benstundze02-03-07, 05:34 PM | kk |
| MageSparrowhawk02-03-07, 07:40 PM | Anyone have any specific comments? the more specific the better...does this seem balanced? |
| MageSparrowhawk02-03-07, 10:05 PM | here's the deal, all you people looking at this thread must have some ideas on how to make this class better...and balanced. come on, there must be at least 100 of you... any comments to help balance would be helpful:bigeyes: |
| Jaxgaret02-04-07, 01:07 AM | here's the deal, all you people looking at this thread must have some ideas on how to make this class better...and balanced. come on, there must be at least 100 of you... any comments to help balance would be helpful:bigeyes: I'll say it again. IMO, your concept [the concept itself, not the subsequent implementation of the concept] is that of an Epic PrC. The character becomes a Dragon. This is overpowered pre-Epic. Either you will have to completely change the concept - i.e. the character becomes something that is not a Dragon - or make it into an Epic PrC. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-04-07, 08:36 AM | I understand what you are saying, but if you notice, the character does not actually become the dragon, it is just considdered the half- dragon's true form. this means no forcing out of transformation, but also (because the half-dragon for is it's true form) no forcing into that form either. Basicly, it allows the character to start taking some really cool size-required or natural armor-required etc. feats and Prc that are normally only allowed to dragons. |
| benstundze02-04-07, 12:48 PM | Here's the idea: You already have a half dragon, and wish to become a full dragon. Nothing exists -to my knowledge- that does this, so here goes... Half-dragon Ascendant Hit Die: d12 lower this Requirements Race: Half-Dragon B.A.B.: +5 Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 10 ranks Feats: Dragon Breath or Draconic Wings or Draconic Tail Spells: Spontanously cast 2nd level spells get a few more skills and feats in there to make it harder to get in, and raise the BAB Class Skills -not yet decided- Skill points per level: (6+int) bluff, intimidate. lower the skill points Good BAB and all good saves full arcane spellcasting class progression why? no. no. 1--Dragon Essence Draconic Familliar 2--Frightful Presence 3--Draconic form (1/day) Damage Reduction 4--Spell Resistance 5--Improved Natural Armor Improved Breath Weapon 6--Draconic Form (2/day) maybe band weapons and say they can only use spells and claws or other nat attacks 7--Scaled Armor Attack Form Specialization 8--Improved Natural Weapons 9--Draconic Form (3/day) 10--Draconic Ascension Dragon Essence: Each level of Draconic Ascendant you gain is treated as a racial hit die. This increases the HD based abilities accordingly. Draconic Familliar: Your familliar gains the draconic template. You are treated as a character of half of your Draconic Ascendant level for the purposes of your familliar. this shouldn’t be here there’s nothing to say you have a familiar Frightful Presence: You gain a frightful presence just like a dragon. The radius is determined as half racial hit die, rounded down as your age category. The save is figured the same as a dragon. Draconic form: Once a day for every 3 levels (starting at 3rd), the Draconic Ascendant can take the form of a true dragon of her type. The form's HD can be no higher than her ECL+5. She gains the size, type, speed, AC, attacks, space/reach, special attacks, special qualities Str, Dex, and Con of the form. She does not gain any spellcasting from the change. Damage Reduction: Gain damage reduction x/magic where x is your racial hit dice. this is a bit overdoing it Spell Resistance: Gain Spell resistance equal to 10+ your racial Hit Die. make this 1/2 your hit dice Improved Natural Armor: Gain +4 natural armor. Improved Breath Weapon: Your breath weapon improves to 6d10 damage and gains +5 to saves against it. Scaled Armor: Any light armor you wear is treated as natural armor-no arcane spell failure, no armor check penalties-but you still can't wear another suit of armor. Attack Form Specialization: Depending on which feat(s) you have-draconic wings, tail, or breath- you gain an aditional abillity: Tail sweep, wing slam, or Ally friendly breath. Your tail sweep affects a half circle around you, out to 5 feet every 5 levels. the wing slam grants you 2 bludgeoning attacks for 1d4+1/2 Str. Ally friendly breath allows you to use your breath weapon without the fear toasting your allies. Your breath weapon now only affects who you want it to in it's area ie, allies take no damage in the area. your breath weapon also affects +10 feet (if a cone) or +20 (if a line). All of these abilities are only effective in your natural form (and half-dragon form if applicable). Improved Natural Weapons: All your natural weapons are treated as one size larger. This ability is only effective in your natural form (and half-dragon form if applicable). Draconic Ascension: Once you reach 10th level, the draconic form becomes your "true form" though you still can only take this form the pre-defined number of times per day (note-the Half-Dragon form is also its true form, so you can't force yourself into your "true form" with magic, etc.). This means you can start taking feats, prestige classes, etc. that that form meets the requirements for. And that's how it goes...yes I know its a little strong, but that's why I need your help :D make those changes and you should be good hope this helps ben |
| MageSparrowhawk02-04-07, 07:12 PM | the hit die is a dragon's hit die, as with the skill points. The requirements mean at least 10 level before you start taking the class, pluss the level adjustment. The casting progression is because this is suposed to be a gith, I guess reducing it a little bit would be ok though. DR and SR only go up to 10/magic and 20 respectively, and that isn't really very high at 20th level; but if you really think so, I'll lower them. And the familliar thing-this is supposed to be a Soc/Ftr Prc, and if they don't have a familliar, sucks to be them. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-05-07, 08:18 PM | :bump: |
| MageSparrowhawk02-08-07, 04:26 PM | I need suggestions and reasons for the suggestions...:bigeyes: |
| MageSparrowhawk02-09-07, 04:32 PM | Ok, here's an idea, d10 hit die, 4+int skill points, and spellcasting progresion every level except for 5, 10, etc. would that work better? |
| Jaxgaret02-09-07, 11:21 PM | Ok, here's an idea, d10 hit die, 4+int skill points, and spellcasting progresion every level except for 5, 10, etc. would that work better? That's better, but it just doesn't jive with your concept. Dragons don't get d10 HD, they get d12 HD. Heck, even Dragon Disciples get d12 HD. You just need to re-think your whole concept. You want something that's better than the Epic Dragon Disciple. Face it, it's an Epic PrC. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-10-07, 09:50 AM | [*sigh* How would you suggest turning it into an epic Prc?] SMITE hah! nevermind! |
| ank02-11-07, 04:07 PM | Hey, I found this thread :D ! Awesome, I tried to do the same thing here, but my project failed because I took a half-hour straight to write up the special abilities and after that I just didn't feel like trying. I'm a little busy at the moment (birthday in the family) but I'll get back to you soon with some productive suggestions. Meanwhile, if you wanted to view my half-completed idea, here's the link http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11174545#post11174545 |
| ank02-11-07, 05:27 PM | Here's the idea: You already have a half dragon, and wish to become a full dragon. Nothing exists -to my knowledge- that does this, so here goes... Half-dragon Ascendant Hit Die: d12 Requirements Race: Half-Dragon B.A.B.: +5 Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 10 ranks Feats: Dragon Breath or Draconic Wings or Draconic Tail Spells: Spontanously cast 2nd level spells Class Skills -not yet decided- Skill points per level: (6+int) Good BAB and all good saves full arcane spellcasting class progression 1--Dragon Essence Draconic Familliar 2--Frightful Presence 3--Draconic form (1/day) Damage Reduction 4--Spell Resistance 5--Improved Natural Armor Improved Breath Weapon 6--Draconic Form (2/day) 7--Scaled Armor Attack Form Specialization 8--Improved Natural Weapons 9--Draconic Form (3/day) 10--Draconic Ascension Dragon Essence: Each level of Draconic Ascendant you gain is treated as a racial hit die. This increases the HD based abilities accordingly. Draconic Familliar: Your familliar gains the draconic template. You are treated as a character of half of your Draconic Ascendant level for the purposes of your familliar. Frightful Presence: You gain a frightful presence just like a dragon. The radius is determined as half racial hit die, rounded down as your age category. The save is figured the same as a dragon. Draconic form: Once a day for every 3 levels (starting at 3rd), the Draconic Ascendant can take the form of a true dragon of her type. The form's HD can be no higher than her ECL+5. She gains the size, type, speed, AC, attacks, space/reach, special attacks, special qualities Str, Dex, and Con of the form. She does not gain any spellcasting from the change. Damage Reduction: Gain damage reduction x/magic where x is your racial hit dice. Spell Resistance: Gain Spell resistance equal to 10+ your racial Hit Die. Improved Natural Armor: Gain +4 natural armor. Improved Breath Weapon: Your breath weapon improves to 6d10 damage and gains +5 to saves against it. Scaled Armor: Any light armor you wear is treated as natural armor-no arcane spell failure, no armor check penalties-but you still can't wear another suit of armor. Attack Form Specialization: Depending on which feat(s) you have-draconic wings, tail, or breath- you gain an aditional abillity: Tail sweep, wing slam, or Ally friendly breath. Your tail sweep affects a half circle around you, out to 5 feet every 5 levels. the wing slam grants you 2 bludgeoning attacks for 1d4+1/2 Str. Ally friendly breath allows you to use your breath weapon without the fear toasting your allies. Your breath weapon now only affects who you want it to in it's area ie, allies take no damage in the area. your breath weapon also affects +10 feet (if a cone) or +20 (if a line). All of these abilities are only effective in your natural form (and half-dragon form if applicable). Improved Natural Weapons: All your natural weapons are treated as one size larger. This ability is only effective in your natural form (and half-dragon form if applicable). Draconic Ascension: Once you reach 10th level, the draconic form becomes your "true form" though you still can only take this form the pre-defined number of times per day (note-the Half-Dragon form is also its true form, so you can't force yourself into your "true form" with magic, etc.). This means you can start taking feats, prestige classes, etc. that that form meets the requirements for. And that's how it goes...yes I know its a little strong, but that's why I need your help :D My suggestions for you class are as follows (unless you want to try and blend the two, ill simply refer to "your" and "my" class). You should make your damage reduction equal to 1/2 your racial hit die, that would help even it out with other classes and even dragons (a young adult only has DR 5/magic). Split your natural armor bonuses into two, three, or even four levels of progression so that a charecter doesnt hit just one level and get a huge insta-boost to their ac. You scaled armor needs to be re-written. Look at the duskblade class for suggestion on how to phrase getting rid of arcane spell failure. The way you have it now, the AC of a light armor would be natural armor that would NOT stack with the existing natural armor bonus, thus making it null and void. Strange as it sounds, you should make the special ability on your breath weapon more attractive. With dragon magic, there is a new least invocation that does the same thing AND gives endure elements for 24 hours. EDIT: Rethinking this, perhaps you shouldn't raise it. You might consider giving shape breath or a similar feat as a bonus feat here. Place a specific time limit on how long a charecter can stay as a dragon. I'd recomend you do a number of minutes equal to charecter level. Once they hit level ten, consider improving this to 10 minutes/level to more accurately reflect the choice as your "natural form." Reduce the bonus to saves to only +2, +5 is pushing it, even for me. Rewrite it as "Your breath weapon improves to 6d10. Increase the save against your breath weapon by 2." Dragons don't gain frightful presense until the young adult stage, so you should consider changing the wording on your frightful presense ability or else the PC wont gain frightful presense until level 10. I would recomend having a frightful presense out to 30' with a SAVE equal to a dragon of half your dragon racial hit dice. Have the range increase to 60' at level seven or eight. (Appropriate name pending...) Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +5, able to cast 2 level arcane spells, Half-Dragon template, Feats: Dragon Wings, Dragon Tail, or Dragon Breath (added after reading magesparrowhawk's version), Must have visited the dragonfont or area of similar power. Class Base Fort Ref Will Special Spellcasting Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save 1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Ability Increase (+2 con), Natural Armor +1, Dragon hit die +1 Level Sorcerer 2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Natural Weapon Size bonus, Wyrmling Special Abilities 3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Damage Reduction 1/magic, Ability Increase (+2 str) +1 Level Sorcerer 4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Dragon Tail, Natural Armor +2 5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Damage Reduction 2/magic, Wings +1 level Sorcerer 6th +6 +5 +2 +5 Ability Increase (+2 int), blindsense 30' 7th +7 +5 +2 +5 Second Special Ability, Damage Reduction 3/magic +1 level Sorcerer Natural Armor +3 8th +8 +6 +2 +6 Wing Slams, Ability Increase (+2 Cha) 9th +9 +6 +3 +6 Frightful Presence, Damage Reduction 4/magic +1 Level Sorcerer 10th +10 +7 +3 +7 Spell Resistance, Natural Armor +4, 11th +11 +7 +3 +7 Damage Reduction 5/magic, blind sense 60’ +1 Level Sorcerer 12th +12 +8 +4 +8 Dragon Form My class. I decided that since half-dragon is termed to be a dragon type, it should get a prestige class that turns it into a dragon like a dragon prestige class, as such this one has twelve levels. The point of this prestige class is to allow a dragon-loving player to have a devoted PC that can gain useful abilities at lower level, but be eventually able to work up to a dragon of approx. their level and to, for all intensive purposes, become that dragon. By the time a PC qualifies for this class, they will have to be at the very least a level ECL 10 (3 for half-dragon, 3 for wizard, 4 for fighter/barbarian). The twelve levels mean that they are at LEAST level 22 (typically a bit higher for sorceror progression and waiting time). All stat bonuses, skills, attacks forms, special and supernatural abilities are meant to mimic those of a young adult dragon of your selected type. I averaged the stats progression for the 10 true dragons and they are added to your stats over the course of the progression along with the damage reduction 5/magic charecteristic of a young adult dragon. The wyrmling and secondary abilities in the above progression are meant to be cross-referenced with the dragon table. Most dragons gain some special ability (cloudwalking, alternate form, icewalking, etc.) at first level and a spell-like or other extraordinary ability sometime between the age catergory of wyrmling and young adult; this is the second "special ability" that you add to your charecter. And yes, the question you're all dying to pummel me on, is that the twelth level does, in fact, transform you 24/7 into a young adult dragon. Keep in mind that I have averaged the stat progression of dragons and so irregardless of the dragon you choose to become, they will be mostly equal. I figure that if a PC has to be at least level 22 before they become a dragon, and a young adult ussually has 19 hit die, that im only 2 or 3 level off the appropriate ECL (which im hoping is offset slightly by the fact that the feats the PC invested in are not suited exactly to a dragon. This is not to say a crafty player couldn't pull this off and im open to any suggestion. Just bear in mind that If someone were going to take the dragon disciple and this prestige class, that any major hike in requirements or lowering of abilities would drastically hurt their ability to take this class and still be effective in a party.) This sounds like we can actually pound something out here, so ill try to force myself to outline the abilites in my class so as to confer what they do. I like some of the ideas in your class, and would like to incorporate a few with your permission (the main thing that comes to mind is that your "dragon essence" and my "dragon hit die" are the the same, but I would like to say "dragon essense because it adds more to the flavor of the game). Feel free to add constructive criticism or suggestions. Please do not simply post for a snide remark. Thank you in advance. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-12-07, 03:17 PM | -Please view first post for modifications- so, does this seem any better? |
| ank02-12-07, 04:33 PM | It is most definately better, but I think that it still needs a few modifications. Firstly, you should do something about the full arcane spellcasting progression. I understand your idea here, but if you give a sorceror/wizard/wu jen/etc. a full spellcasting level, good saves, and a good base attack bonus all in on class, it's essentially a fighter/monk/spellcaster combo, but highly beefed up. I would tone down the spellcasting (by at least three levels; I highly recomend that you take one of these off the first level). Your saves also seem a little high, entering into the realm of the monk, so I would consider lowering one of the saves to average or poor (as ive done in my concept for the reflex save) this helps balance it out a little. I say this particularily because you are riding the fine line of exceeding the invisable power limit placed by the Initiate of Draconic Mysteries (draconomicon) prestige class, which featured the use of claws, evasion, natural armor, and dragonshape at tenth level. You have higher prerequisites and some abilities listed in the class are replaced in your new one, so in the end it is pretty close. Im inclined at first glance to say that its way overpowered, but the main power of your class (dragon shifting) is so limited its scary. Also, if im reading into this class correctly, you're looking for a bit of a melee shift with minor spellcasting abilities like a paladin, ranger, or dragonslayer (this is why I recomend you take off spellcasting bonuses instead of physical or supernatural abilites like improved natural weapons or frightful presense; these add to the melee force or the player.) This balances given that the player has to give up at least the equivalent of 5 levels of a fighting class (2 for half-dragon, took out 1 because of str and N. armor assistance, and 3 wizard to meet spellcasting) and a good deal more of spellcasting for the abilities granted. Edit: I think main additions are competed, I am now opening myself up to snide remarks :D |
| MageSparrowhawk02-12-07, 11:51 PM | I'm still debating on what levels to drop spell casting, but you're right, it's nessissary :sigh: how about at 1st, 6th etc.? all good saves are because dragons have all good saves-that's sort of what I was going for...meh btw, you need at least 4 soc caster levels-2nd level spontaneous spells--therefore, minimum req. is 10th level |
| ank02-13-07, 07:11 AM | Sorry, didn't see the spontaneous requirement. As to spelcasting, i'd personally prefer if you did something like 1st, 5th, 9th, but it's hard to predict something like that. Best way to figure out how the class would work is to build a PC youself, one with, say, 5 levels of this class and one with 10. Then run them v. a CR that should normally challenge them and see how they fare. |
| B-L-Zebub02-13-07, 04:06 PM | Great class. I really like the concept. I'm just afraid that it is way overpowered. To get good BAB, d12 HD, all good saves, full spell progression, natural armor and spell resistance is no good I'm afraid. And the ability scaled armor don't seem to fit the flavor I think. The other abilities are connected to the concept: Becoming a dragon, but this is just kind of an excuse to get more armor without suffering arcane spell failure, so if you ask me you should remove it. I can understand why you want everything else. It fits the flavor. But you should probably cut down. I am not familiar with any class that has full BAB and all good saves. Maybe you can keep that, but you have to do something about the spell progression. I recommend one third or maybe half, but no more. I think that it is hard to make a non-epic class with dragon HD statistics that works. It needs to be epic. It also seems kind of ridiculous to call him a true dragon when he can be one less that five minutes a day. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-13-07, 05:24 PM | Can anyone figure out a way to make the saves not quite as good, but still nearly full? Also, do you think a moderate BAB progression would be ok? I'm just not sure if it would work/fit the theme... |
| starvinmarvin0702-13-07, 06:01 PM | Maybe I have gone insane because I read a few posts and I seem to be the only one who sees this... Highest HD possible 2nd Highest skills/lvl possible Full BAB All good saves Full arcane caster progression Special ability at every level Congratulations. Apparently you've combined the best aspects of a Barbarian, Wizard, and Monk all into one. I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing some huge drawback, but this class seems way, way, way out of balance. EDIT; ok, I'm not crazy; some of the later posts mention the same problems. How to fix the class: Pick one theme and run with it. You want a fighter-mage type? Give it some benefits of both types You want a physical, martial type? Take out spellcasting You want a spell casting type? Take away d12 HD and full BAB |
| ank02-13-07, 06:21 PM | In response to the above post, i have three responses: 1. The full arcane spellcasting is under revision, and is soon to change, so i would ask you to ignore this misprint 2. It may get 6+int skill points, but it has no class skills (exept some were thinking bluff and intimidate and possibly one more based of the draconic heritage feat list) so most if not all those skill points are going to have to be cross-classed 3. Because of the lengthy requirements for this class, a lot of multi-classing has to be done to qualify, this helps to balance the saves and base attack bonus (although both are still under revision). Although......I just realized that we forgot to account for the duskblade factor (doh!) To magesparrowhawk: you might want to consider doing something about this, but I'm not sure what. Now, to the balance issue about the saves. I'd lower one, or possible two, (either reflex or will). If you're worried about low saves, perhaps you should add a special ability that allows a charecter to use one of their dragon shifting abilities for the day as an immediate action to raise their saving throws for 1 round/level + cha modifier. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-14-07, 03:12 PM | I have an idea about the saves: they are all low saves, but you gain a bonus based on level, or Cha bonus, etc. About the duskblade, does it spontanously cast spells? That is a really easy (and already built in) restriction. I have one idea to balance the whole class; after every two levels, put in an extra blank level. That would rase the final level to 15, and slow down the progression too. What do you think of that? |
| ank02-14-07, 06:24 PM | Stretching out the levels would make it a bit of an epic prestige class, but that would be ok. I'm nervous about your "blank" levels. These are the kind of thing that turn people away from classes and the only other really blank level on so frequent a basis is the fighter. I'd throw in 2, maybe 3 blank levels an fill in the other two with minor abilities. As to your question, yes the duskblade does cast spontaneously and they gain a full base attack bonus. I think they gain 2nd level spells at 5th level, so add two more to meet the knowledge arcana and they qualify. This does put them at tenth level, so i suppose it still fits the balance. |
| ank02-14-07, 09:22 PM | I know you're out there, I can hear you breathing, some of you are even swearing at me I'm sure :) . I'm sorry if it seems like this project is me being overbearing here, but MageSparrowHawk needs to hear multiple opinions on this, not just my own (skewed) view. Anyone with an opinion one way or the other I would ask of you to PLEASE post regardless of what small, seemingly insignificant tidbit you have to add. Even the smallest comment can spark a large, productive, debate. Thank you. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-14-07, 10:23 PM | Even the smallest comment can spark a large, productive, debate. Thank you. Hopefully it won't be bloody... A modification to my "blank levels" solution might be just to spread out some of the abilities, and maybe fill some of them with spell-casting ups. The duskblade shouldn't be a problem, because of the required skill ranks-they'd still need to be level 10 (effectively). any ideas on how to fix the saves problem? And I agree, there are a lot of people looking at this thread, you people need to respond-even if it's a trifle. About the skills Ank, I just havn't decided about them, probably Knowledge (Arcana), Intimidate, appraise, Spellcraft, maybe bluff, and some others; I haven't decided on what they should be though. |
| Jaxgaret02-14-07, 10:35 PM | I may be off base here... but it seems way overpowered. I can see a Half-Dragon Duskblade7/Dragon Ascendant kicking a whole lot of ass. A Half-Dragon BattleSorcerer7/Dragon Ascendant can be rocking as well. Although......I just realized that we forgot to account for the duskblade factor (doh!) To magesparrowhawk: you might want to consider doing something about this, but I'm not sure what. Perhaps if you had read the thread, you would have seen that I had already posted builds using both the Duskblade and the Battle Sorcerer, the two obvious intros into Dragon Ascendant. The stiff entry requirements do limit the class somewhat. Just not enough. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-14-07, 11:22 PM | You do have to remember that this Prc must be something you've been planing on taking from the very begining, not a cherry-picked one. Also, would the battle sorcerer and duskblade be just so much more powerful in compairison with a 4 Soc/3 Ftr? I guess I don't have as much experience with these classes to know... |
| Jaxgaret02-14-07, 11:54 PM | Also, would the battle sorcerer and duskblade be just so much more powerful in compairison with a 4 Soc/3 Ftr? I guess I don't have as much experience with these classes to know... Yes, very much so. You're giving up a total of six caster levels with a Half-Dragon Sorc4/Ftr3/DA character. That's more of a melee build than you'd like it to be. But a Half-Dragon BattleSorc7 or Duskblade7 into Dragon Ascendant only loses three caster levels. I would absolutely love to play a monstrosity like that. Mmm... so overpowered. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-15-07, 12:09 AM | Where are the duskblade and Battle soc located? |
| ank02-15-07, 08:29 PM | Duskblade is in the Players handbook II and the warmage is in...unearthed arcane im tempted to say...but not sure on that. |
| Magrus02-15-07, 09:00 PM | here's the deal, all you people looking at this thread must have some ideas on how to make this class better...and balanced. come on, there must be at least 100 of you... any comments to help balance would be helpful:bigeyes: You got helpful suggestions from what I saw a while back. You disregarded them with something along the lines of "this isn't an epic PrC!". Your basic concept is extremely overpowered, so much so that upon seeing it, chances are most folks had the same response that I did. Which was "HA! AHAHAHA!" *wipes tear* "Oh, wow. That's funny. He thinks that's balanced! HA." *sighs* Which led to me not wanting to help at all. There seemed to be no true thought in making it at all balanced in the first place. Which means you dumped together something after thinking up neato abilities for an "awesome" class concept. You didn't bother to compare it to other classes, you just posted it and hoped someone would then do all of the work balancing it for you. In which case you should have said "Please balance my awfully overpowered PrC, I can't do it at all!" in the title. Most folks viewing it expect at least a moderate amount of effort being put in to balance something like this in the initial setup. This would have warned those not wanting to hold someone's hand to avoid it altogether. |
| Istaran02-15-07, 09:13 PM | Dragons themselves seem to get about a 2/3 progression on caster level vs HD. (to say nothing of their constant LA bumps.) Your class should not exceed that, and probably should do worse (1/2 spell progression?). This is, after all, a fighter class with spells overall. Class skills should probably be same as dragon type in question (varies by color). That is both flavorful, and a weakness. You should also probably replace the draconic form with just a permanent conversion to a dragon body shape over the course of the levels. This would do things like making you start using non-humanoid eq rules half way through: pick levels along the way for various pieces of equipment to no longer fit unless specifically made for a dragon. The Draconomicon has a section on what eq fits on a dragon as is (if sized right or auto-resizing), and what needs to be custom made. At some point they should become automatically non-proficient with all weapons (arm shapes too awkward for wielding normally). At 10th level your shape should be completely draconic at all times. Congratulations: your draconic heritage has now fully superseded your mortal heritage. Maybe give them the ability to live off eating any type of matter at that point (like true dragons have according to Draconomicon). (It's rarely applicable, but in wierd situations it can be nice to not need real food.) They should also pick up their draconic racial weakness where applicable along the way. At some point you should adjust their reach to be like a dragon. That means when large they have only 5' reach (because they're low/long quadrapeds), but have +5' reach on bite only. At some point they should also become naturally large sized (which gets to be a problem in tight spaces). Overall this class is way too powerful without some unique challenges to counterbalance it. Some other possible unique side-detriments: make them lose the ability to write and the ability to speak non-draconic languages. They can still read/hear just fine and comprehend whatever languages they know. While dragons speak other languages just fine, draconic is built around their mouth structure, etc. and true dragons have had years/centuries to perfect the art of speaking in humanoid tongues. You haven't. This means many NPCs won't be able to understand you, while hopefully the party will have at least one or two others who picked up draconic. Frightful interaction: People are disturbed and made nervous by your presense. Add your class level to intimidate checks, but subtract your class level from diplomacy and gather information checks; you can scare people into doing what you want, but you have a harder time relating to them. Hubris: When given an opportunity to earn wealth or fame you must make a will save (DC 15 + class level) to be able to turn it down, even if it is an obvious trap. You are a dragon and can obviously handle a mere trap. |
| ank02-16-07, 10:30 AM | You should also probably replace the draconic form with just a permanent conversion to a dragon body shape over the course of the levels. This would do things like making you start using non-humanoid eq rules half way through: pick levels along the way for various pieces of equipment to no longer fit unless specifically made for a dragon. The Draconomicon has a section on what eq fits on a dragon as is (if sized right or auto-resizing), and what needs to be custom made. At some point they should become automatically non-proficient with all weapons (arm shapes too awkward for wielding normally). At 10th level your shape should be completely draconic at all times. Congratulations: your draconic heritage has now fully superseded your mortal heritage. Maybe give them the ability to live off eating any type of matter at that point (like true dragons have according to Draconomicon). (It's rarely applicable, but in wierd situations it can be nice to not need real food.) You've got some really good suggestions that I hope are put into use. I don't think the intention was to make the charecter go all the way to dragon, but since this seems to be so popular a point of contention I'll be re-posting my class which does just that on another thread (so i don't have to try and catch peoples attention off topic). When I get it up, I'll post a link here. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11506140 And thats the link To your suggestion, I'm a little hesitant about the hubris, even though it is well thought out. I really do like the idea of frightful interaction though, specifically because it also leaves bluff alone, allowing for some 'peacful' PC interaction. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-16-07, 12:08 PM | I really like the "frightful interaction" ability. The Hubris ability is interesting, but it doesn't exactly make sense; the same goes with the language thing, though I suppose it could work. One idea I had was that starting early on, it would start becoming harder to disguise your heritage; something like- disguise spells of a level less than the number of times you can become a dragon squared don't function, unless you take a draconic form. this is because you are devoting yourself to becoming a dragon, so no disguising yourself (always a problem when this horrible "monster" is trying to get into a royal court). Another important factor that may or may not have been clear, basicly none of the class abilities function while in dragon form (not sure how many other things do, but probably only your feats and spells will function) I also made some of the changes that were suggested, how does it look now? BTW, when would you suggest adding these negative abilities in? |
| Poison_Dusk02-16-07, 12:18 PM | Man this would go awsome with a Dragonfire Adept. Any chance you could add to the prereq something to let them take it? |
| MageSparrowhawk02-16-07, 12:21 PM | Honestly, right now I'm trying to limit entry it as much as possible, as a restricting factor; sorry probably not. |
| Poison_Dusk02-16-07, 02:46 PM | cool, just an idea i had. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-16-07, 05:01 PM | It turns out that dragons have listen, spot, search, concentration, diplomacy, escape artist, intimidate, Knowledge (any), sense motive, and use magic device. These and an aditional couple based on dragon variety. -sigh- |
| Nathan_Talisien02-17-07, 05:23 PM | First, I want to say that I like the idea of this class, and the theme is really good. I would like to use it in my campaign, but there aren't any dragons, and hence no half-dragons, so unfortunately I can't, LOL. I did make three of these up and have a couple of my players run them in a non-campaign session. I made them using the standard roll system for stats. I used a Fighter 3/Bard 4/ Ascendant 13; a Fighter 3/ Sorcerer 4/ Ascendant 13; and a Hexblade 8/ Ascendant 12. After seeing how they stomped on a group of five Titans and a Gold mature adult-category dragon, I have decided I agree that the class is over-powered. I have a few ideas for toning it down or balancing it, which in this case seem to amount to the same thing. 1.) Several others had suggested earlier that you change the Base Save bonuses by toning them down. I agree with that, but not in the way most commonly suggested. Remember, this is a PrC, so you don't necessarily have to use the standard Base Attack and Base Save progression. Why not have a Save Progression like the Monk, but they all start at +0? You wouldn't have any saves topping out at +12, so technically you wouldn't have any 'good' saves, but you wouldn't have any 'bad' saves, either. 2.) Another ways to tone it down without losing the essence of the class, why not give it the Fighter's Base Attack bonus in Half-dragon form, and the Rogue's in full Dragon form? Even though the character who takes this class is striving to become a full dragon, this would show that the form is still new and unfamiliar, and that the character has to take time adjusting to it, sort of like with a Polymorph spell. If you ever make an Epic continuation of the class, then you could add the good Base Attack. Besides, it's already very powerful in full dragon form anyway, since it gets the stats of the dragon, and having the best Base Attack progression pushes it just a tad too far. 3.) When it comes to spellcasting, timing is everything, both in-game and in class progression. I'm afraid I have to agree with the people who said the spell progression is too aggressive. It needs to be either toned down, or have more limits placed on it. Maybe prohibit spells from certain schools, or give the Ascendant it's own spell list and spells per day. I don't know. 3.) About the Draconic Familiar idea: why not have the character's current familiar leave, and a new one have to be found? Show that, however attached to it's master it may be, natural animals fear dragons and what it's master is doing is unnatural enough to break their bond. A little XP loss won't kill the character, but having to lose a long-time companion in order to become a dragon would make for a little more character depth for those who play a Half-dragon Ascendant. 4.) Someone else suggested going with progressive damage reduction, instead of Hit die-based, and I agree with that. Considering that the damage reduction of dragons is based on age, your Ascendant shouldn't be packing the DR of a great wyrm when s/he's only a couple decades old, instead of several centuries. Plus, see below, my comments about the Scaled Armor ability. Together, they would make WAY too powerful a combination. 5.) On the matter of spell resistance, I would change it to 10 + class level. If you make it 10 plus the character's Hit die, this would cap out at SR 30, which is just a bit too much, in conjunction with the other abilities of the class. Or, alternately, make it only when in full dragon form, and as the appropriate type and age of dragon. Actually, that might be a better fit for the theme of the class, I think. 6.) I would drop the Scaled Armor ability entirely, or at least exchange it with the blank level at 14. As it stands, this would probaly come at 17th to 20th level for most characters, at which point the player could easily buy a +5 chain shirt (25,400 gp) and get a +9 bonus to AC without penalty. That's a bit much, even at those high levels, when coupled with the Natural Armor you are giving them. Just that alone, with a Dexterity of 10 (no bonus to AC), would give the character a 25 AC. Throw in a 14 Dexterity, it becomes 27; add a +5 Animated large steel shield (49,320 gp) and it's now up to 34, still with no penalty; a Ring of Protection +5 (50,000 gp) puts the AC up to 39; a Ring of Force Shield (8,500 gp) makes it a 41 AC, and still no penalty in sight. At 41 AC, anything with less than a +22 to attack isn't going to be able to hit you without a natural 20, and even then the chances of it making the confirmation to get a critical hit are about nil. And there are more items that could be used still. Those are just a few examples. A spell caster that can't be hit by anything but a touch attack is getting a bit over-the-top, isn't it? 7.) I would make a rider on the Improved Natural Weapons ability that says that it doesn't grant you access to new attacks you don't qualify for. This isn't necessary for function reasons, but we all know there are those Timmy-types out there who will make their DM's life miserable, screaming "It doesn't say I don't get them, so I get them!" Most DM's probably prefer to avoid those arguements if possible; I know I do. I hope some of this helps, or at least gives you a few ideas that help. i would like to see this class balanced and playable, as I like it a lot. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-17-07, 06:06 PM | How's that? |
| MageSparrowhawk02-19-07, 08:00 PM | Hello? |
| MageSparrowhawk02-22-07, 05:26 PM | Oh come on people-I just made some major changes, and not a peep? please keep helping me? |
| B-L-Zebub02-25-07, 03:22 PM | Oh come on people-I just made some major changes, and not a peep? please keep helping me? You seem to have balanced it out a bit. It is pretty hard to see the changes as it is, though. I would advise you to format the class a little better so it is easier to see how it looks now. With the new BAB and saves it would be nice with a table. |
| MageSparrowhawk02-26-07, 01:17 AM | Will do--(as soon as I figure out how) :blush: |
| ank02-27-07, 04:55 PM | Oops, sent that PM to you a little too soon MageSparrowHawk. When you ask about how to get your words into a "box" I assume you are talking either about how to use an S-block, or how to arrange a table. Ok, so you're interested in sblocks? You have to enter it like this {sblock="title"}"Text/Message" {/sblock} The only difference is that you would replace the { }'s with [ ]'s. So, if you wanted an sblock entitled "magesparrowhawk" with a message of "hi" it would look like this: {sblock=magesparrowhawk}hi{/sblock} hi Ok, so you're interested in tables? I honestly don't know what to tell you on this one. The way that I organized my table was to take my text over to microsoft word, organize it there, and then copy-paste it back into a post. OR you can just organize it, box-style, in the post iteself. This just involves a lot of time on the posters past in order to get all his/her tags matched up. Alternatatively, you could create a graph, using any program, post it on the internet, and then post it here as a picture. The class itself looks OK to me, I'll give it a more complete run-through soon and get back to you on that. |
| MageSparrowhawk03-01-07, 01:00 PM | is the setup clearer now? |
| MageSparrowhawk03-02-07, 12:31 PM | :bump: with great prejudice! |
| MageSparrowhawk03-03-07, 07:51 PM | Ok, I had an idea-all of you 1087 viewers, just say in a simple yes/no post if this is balanced. A little explanation would be helpful, but not necessary. |
| ank03-10-07, 11:08 PM | Ok, initially, I jumped on the bandwagon and got this off to a nice start. Now, I start to question the work I've been doing. The reason: haphazard creation. Allow me to explain please. The charecter, throughout there levels, gain some uniquely dragon statistics. However, you give the charecter both spell resistance and spellcasting levels (and +4 nat. armor, charecteristic of: ), neither of which can be gained until the young adult stage. Yet, at the same time, you don't give them the blindsense that even a wyrmling has. A dragon is meant to be balanced by their otherwise "worthless" racial hit die and their level adjustment. You take care of the level adjustment, that's for sure, but after that the only major offshoot to this class is the limited draconic forms per day. Allow me to put this another way by comparing a dragon to this class. You have a 4/sorceror, 4/fighter, 3/half-dragon that enters this class. Now, add a few levels to make it level, say, 16. This gives it five of your class levels. Now, a gold dragon wyrmling enters (ECL 13) and takes three levels of paladin. I don't have my books on me right now, so I can't compare saves and attack bonuses, but I'll look at just skills for now. The gold dragon gets blindsense, natural armor, good saves and attack bonuses, alternate form 3/day, a 2d10 breath weapon, detect evil (paladin), and its attack forms. Now, the guy who invested in this class has natural armor, a 6d8 breath weapon (assuming they logically take dragon breath), good base attack bonus, descent saves, frightful presence, a draconic familiar, and 7 sorceror caster levels. Now, this seems like an OK tradeoff, you give up blindsense for frightful presense, and a dragon gets its natural attack forms over spellcasting. But considering a 6d8 nuke for the half-dragon (better than the regular dragons), its sorceror levels are all based on utilitarian spells such as mage armor, shield, bulls strength, wings of cover, instant diversion, etc. It becomes clear the the half-dragon has an inherant advantage, given that it has almost every advantage of a real dragon exept for its frequent attack forms. Now, the sad part, I really like this class. This seems like a good and worthy pursuit, but it seems almost to overshadow the real dragon pcs, which I find to just be unfair. What's worse, is I don't know how exactly to fix it. Obviously, its the same deal as the mystic theurge. The class has staying power (the breath weapon and several sorceror spells) but it has to use them regularly throughout the day and forsake the highest spells. but critically, they only give up two base attack bonus, and 4 hit die (which are helped by the d12 gained here, I like that by the way). The only real idea I have to fix this would be to scale the spell progression back a tiny bit further (1/2) and to change frightful presense to "you gain the frightful presense of the dragon you become." and to add a small blindsense in its stead. I'll see if I can get around to playtesting it (I figure I can make an npc and run it against my players sometime soon) but If I don't good luck to you. Assuming that this actually ends up to be balanced when I run it (wouldn't that be nice?) Then you can just ignore my 15 minutes of furious typing :D |
| MageSparrowhawk03-11-07, 12:44 PM | thank you, and I have to go right now, but I'll give this more thought soon, thx again! |
| MageSparrowhawk03-12-07, 03:45 PM | I added in some of the suggestions, and I was wondering Ank, what is an estimated time for that test? |
| ank03-12-07, 06:27 PM | Well, the my group has been delayed. I'm instead going to go to the rpga events with my friends. However, with a little luck I may get to run it for some of the members of a group in which I am a player. Such a test will occur on thursday, if at all. I may be able to test it earlier against some of my many charecters that I've created over the years, but that is on a if-I-have-time basis. Sorry :weep: |
| MageSparrowhawk03-12-07, 07:22 PM | Don't wory about it, just as soon as you get a chance-do so. And for anyone else out there reading this, how do my changes look? |