Daggerspell Shaper [Archive] - Wizards Community

Daggerspell Shaper [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
celloshane
05-20-07, 05:06 PM Daggerspell Shaper (CAdv) is a flavorful and balanced prestige class, except for one fatal flaw; the designers chose not to let the levels stack for determining maximum HD for Wildshape. It's my opinion that altering that choice brings the class back to the proper level of balance, and helps it maintain validity throughout all levels of play.
I'd like to ask the original designer if HD were intended to stack originally, but I don't know who or how. Anybody know?
Beyond that, does anyone have a reason why the Hd shouldn't stack for the Daggerspell Shaper?
goawayugh
05-22-07, 08:06 AM I don't have my book in front of me, but there is nothing in the errata about it. If it doesn't say so, then I'd say no, it doesn't stack.
madbliza
05-22-07, 03:01 PM If memory serves correctly, the Daggerspell Shaper class allows for weapons wielded by the character to become bonuses to the natural weapons. This overides the need for higher HD creatures as far as damage is concerned. If you wish to boost your damage, get better weapons.

Keep in mind that you still get spells and wild shape attempts on top of this benefit. That may be why they nerfed it like that.
Empiro
05-23-07, 12:23 AM I believe the intent might have been to allow the levels to stack for HD purposes. Take the Master of Many Forms -- even that class, one that's focused on Wildshaping, doesn't mention anything about increasing the HD of forms that you can take on.
The_Shaman
05-23-07, 06:00 AM MMF is errata'd, I believe.
goawayugh
05-23-07, 07:49 AM I believe the intent might have been to allow the levels to stack for HD purposes. Take the Master of Many Forms -- even that class, one that's focused on Wildshaping, doesn't mention anything about increasing the HD of forms that you can take on.

It's corrected in the errata, MoMF does stack now. There is no mention of Daggerspell Shaper stacking though.
DropsonExistance
11-16-07, 08:10 PM Actually, I've discovered another flaw:

Druids have barely any offensive touch spells, and you can only use touch spells with the daggers. For a class keyed toward druids, that seems like a major oversight to me.
The_Shaman
11-16-07, 09:13 PM With a class whose known spells increase for free with every splatbook, I'd say "barely any" can be a pretty decent number.
DropsonExistance
11-16-07, 09:36 PM With a class whose known spells increase for free with every splatbook, I'd say "barely any" can be a pretty decent number.

Then I guess I'm just having a lot of trouble finding them. Most of the touch spells I'm seeing are aimed towards allies, not enemies.
Cartigan
11-17-07, 09:01 AM Then I guess I'm just having a lot of trouble finding them. Most of the touch spells I'm seeing are aimed towards allies, not enemies.
Yes, even Complete Adventurer only adds one offensive touch spell to the Druid list. Offensive Druid touch spells are probably countable on two hands, including the splat books.
The_Shaman
11-17-07, 10:37 AM Yes, even Complete Adventurer only adds one offensive touch spell to the Druid list. Offensive Druid touch spells are probably countable on two hands, including the splat books.

Come on, the cure/inflict lines already fill the fingers ;) Don't tell me you guys have never used a cure spell against undead? Then we have contagion, poison, blight, and rusting grasp. Not all of them are great spells, I agree, but they can be useful - especially for a dagger wielder. Let me check the splatbooks and I'll get back at you for more, k?

Edit: here's more that I know of:

Magic of Faerun: healing sting (vampiric touch for druids), infestation of maggots (nasty poison-like constitution damage), reprinted in CDivine
Player's Guide to Faerun: Mold Touch (puts a source of nonlethal cold damage - could be useful), handfire (harms undead a little, could be useful at lower levels)
Book of Exalted Deeds: Affliction (poison for evils, some nasty effects)
Book of Vile Darkness: (not applicable due to alignment restrictions for the PrC): Pestilence (con-draining disease, very virulent)
Complete Adventurer: Wracking touch (you know it, I suppose?)
Complete Arcane: Wood rot (mostly useful for fighting plant creatures)
Frostburn: Hibernate (long-duration sleep-like spell spell)
Ghostwalk: Ghost venom (poison for ghosts and other ectoplasmic creatures... depending on whether the DM allows it, could be extended to at least some incorporeal undead)
Libris Mortis: spark of life (undead creature loses undead immunities)
Sandstorm: choking sands (must make a full-round action and a fot save or starts suffocating ), mummify (a creature is killed or damaged and dehydrated)
NorthSaber
12-25-07, 06:40 AM It's unfortunate that the HD don't stack - 5 druid levels suffice for entry to this prestige class, but some of the coolest forms have 6 HD. I'm considering delaying entry to Daggerspell Shaper for one level to get them first, but honestly, after 6 HD, there isn't that much improvement (considering you don't get the huge shapes at all). At least if you're stuck using mostly "normal animals".

I too would like for this tasty ability to increase in usefulness as I gain more levels, but it's true that getting sneak attack and the dagger bonuses to wild shape attacks is more than enough to balance it out. Savage Grapple makes this even more attractive.

You can tell though that this prc isn't ideal for druids who plan on taking more unusual shapes (aberration, dragon, etc), as the HD limit is far more detrimental to them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celloshane 05-20-07, 05:06 PM	Daggerspell Shaper (CAdv) is a flavorful and balanced prestige class, except for one fatal flaw; the designers chose not to let the levels stack for determining maximum HD for Wildshape. It's my opinion that altering that choice brings the class back to the proper level of balance, and helps it maintain validity throughout all levels of play. I'd like to ask the original designer if HD were intended to stack originally, but I don't know who or how. Anybody know? Beyond that, does anyone have a reason why the Hd shouldn't stack for the Daggerspell Shaper?
goawayugh 05-22-07, 08:06 AM	I don't have my book in front of me, but there is nothing in the errata about it. If it doesn't say so, then I'd say no, it doesn't stack.
madbliza 05-22-07, 03:01 PM	If memory serves correctly, the Daggerspell Shaper class allows for weapons wielded by the character to become bonuses to the natural weapons. This overides the need for higher HD creatures as far as damage is concerned. If you wish to boost your damage, get better weapons. Keep in mind that you still get spells and wild shape attempts on top of this benefit. That may be why they nerfed it like that.
Empiro 05-23-07, 12:23 AM	I believe the intent might have been to allow the levels to stack for HD purposes. Take the Master of Many Forms -- even that class, one that's focused on Wildshaping, doesn't mention anything about increasing the HD of forms that you can take on.
The_Shaman 05-23-07, 06:00 AM	MMF is errata'd, I believe.
goawayugh 05-23-07, 07:49 AM	I believe the intent might have been to allow the levels to stack for HD purposes. Take the Master of Many Forms -- even that class, one that's focused on Wildshaping, doesn't mention anything about increasing the HD of forms that you can take on. It's corrected in the errata, MoMF does stack now. There is no mention of Daggerspell Shaper stacking though.
DropsonExistance 11-16-07, 08:10 PM	Actually, I've discovered another flaw: Druids have barely any offensive touch spells, and you can only use touch spells with the daggers. For a class keyed toward druids, that seems like a major oversight to me.
The_Shaman 11-16-07, 09:13 PM	With a class whose known spells increase for free with every splatbook, I'd say "barely any" can be a pretty decent number.
DropsonExistance 11-16-07, 09:36 PM	With a class whose known spells increase for free with every splatbook, I'd say "barely any" can be a pretty decent number. Then I guess I'm just having a lot of trouble finding them. Most of the touch spells I'm seeing are aimed towards allies, not enemies.
Cartigan 11-17-07, 09:01 AM	Then I guess I'm just having a lot of trouble finding them. Most of the touch spells I'm seeing are aimed towards allies, not enemies. Yes, even Complete Adventurer only adds one offensive touch spell to the Druid list. Offensive Druid touch spells are probably countable on two hands, including the splat books.
The_Shaman 11-17-07, 10:37 AM	Yes, even Complete Adventurer only adds one offensive touch spell to the Druid list. Offensive Druid touch spells are probably countable on two hands, including the splat books. Come on, the cure/inflict lines already fill the fingers ;) Don't tell me you guys have never used a cure spell against undead? Then we have contagion, poison, blight, and rusting grasp. Not all of them are great spells, I agree, but they can be useful - especially for a dagger wielder. Let me check the splatbooks and I'll get back at you for more, k? Edit: here's more that I know of: Magic of Faerun: healing sting (vampiric touch for druids), infestation of maggots (nasty poison-like constitution damage), reprinted in CDivine Player's Guide to Faerun: Mold Touch (puts a source of nonlethal cold damage - could be useful), handfire (harms undead a little, could be useful at lower levels) Book of Exalted Deeds: Affliction (poison for evils, some nasty effects) Book of Vile Darkness: (not applicable due to alignment restrictions for the PrC): Pestilence (con-draining disease, very virulent) Complete Adventurer: Wracking touch (you know it, I suppose?) Complete Arcane: Wood rot (mostly useful for fighting plant creatures) Frostburn: Hibernate (long-duration sleep-like spell spell) Ghostwalk: Ghost venom (poison for ghosts and other ectoplasmic creatures... depending on whether the DM allows it, could be extended to at least some incorporeal undead) Libris Mortis: spark of life (undead creature loses undead immunities) Sandstorm: choking sands (must make a full-round action and a fot save or starts suffocating ), mummify (a creature is killed or damaged and dehydrated)
NorthSaber 12-25-07, 06:40 AM	It's unfortunate that the HD don't stack - 5 druid levels suffice for entry to this prestige class, but some of the coolest forms have 6 HD. I'm considering delaying entry to Daggerspell Shaper for one level to get them first, but honestly, after 6 HD, there isn't that much improvement (considering you don't get the huge shapes at all). At least if you're stuck using mostly "normal animals". I too would like for this tasty ability to increase in usefulness as I gain more levels, but it's true that getting sneak attack and the dagger bonuses to wild shape attacks is more than enough to balance it out. Savage Grapple makes this even more attractive. You can tell though that this prc isn't ideal for druids who plan on taking more unusual shapes (aberration, dragon, etc), as the HD limit is far more detrimental to them.