Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thefurmonger 12-11-07, 03:26 PM	This Project started as im sure you can guess while a friend and I were talking about Order of the stick, a web comic. When we looked around the web for a class like this we really couldnt find one we liked, so here it is, my version of the class. The Dashing Swordsman “Don’t make me buckle my swash” The dashing Swordsman is just that, an action hero full of daring do. He comes into combat swinging from the chandelier ready to carry the fair maiden to safety, He come bursting through the wall of fire in the nick of time to foil the nefarious plot. And he does it all with style, grace, and not a hair out of place. Hit Die: d8 Requirements To qualify to become a Dashing Swordsman a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Skills: Balance 8 Ranks, Diplomacy 8 Ranks, Tumble 8 Ranks, Bluff 8 Ranks Base Attack bonus: +4 Feats: Weapon Finesse Special: Must have save a helpless member of the opposite sex from death, dismemberment, incarceration or certain death. Class skills The Dashing Swordsman’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Jump (Str), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak language (None), Tumble (Dex), Use rope (Dex). Skill points at Each Level: 4 + Int Modifier. Lvl BaB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +0 +2 +0 Dashing strike, Too pretty to die 2 +2 +0 +3 +0 Don’t hate the player, hate the game, In the nick of time +2 3 +3 +1 +3 +1 Oh god, not in the face!! 4 +4 +1 +4 +1 Acrobatic charge, Like a rose 5 +5 +1 +4 +1 Better lucky then good 1/day (1 roll) 6 +6 +2 +5 +2 Skill Mastery, In the nick of time (cinematic) 7 +7 +2 +5 +2 Better lucky then good 2/day (1 roll) 8 +8 +2 +6 +2 In the nick of time (Exp retreat) 9 +9 +3 +6 +3 Fast acrobatics 10 +10 +3 +7 +3 Better lucky then good 1/day (full attack) Dashing strike A dashing swordsman spouts insults, catch phrases and bad puns as he fights. This gives him a moral bonus on weapon damage with any weapon he can apply his weapon finesse feat to equal to his Charisma modifier up to his class level. Too pretty to die Most Dashing Swordsman are told early in life that they will have to use their good looks to skate by, and boy is it ever true. Once per day per class level as an immediate action a Dashing swordsman may add his Charisma bonus to any one saving throw he has to make. The decisoin to use this must be made before the roll is made. Don’t hate the player, hate the game A dashing Swordsman adds half his class level to all Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather information, Sense motive and Perform checks Vs. a member of the opposite sex. How ever due to jealousy he takes an equal penalty on said checks Vs. members of his same sex. In the nick of time It doesn’t do for the Dashing Swordsman to arrive right AFTER the fair maiden has been killed. As a result a Dashing Swordsman of 2nd lvl receives a +2 competence bonus to Initive. At 6th level the Dashing Swordsman does not take and environmental damage on the first round of combat, for example for breaking through a glass window, charging through a wall of fire, etc. At 8th level the Dashing Swordsman can use Expedious retreat (swift) as a Spell like ability once a day. Oh god, not in the face!! Any good hero knows everything will be ok so long as they come out looking good, as a result of this a 3rd Level Dashing swordsman may add his Charisma modifier to his armor class up to his class level. He looses this benefit if he is wearing armor heavier then light or is disguised as to hide his appearance. Acrobatic charge Starting at 4th level the Dashing Swordsman can charge where others can not, He may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement or through allies blocking his path. This allows you to charge over a cluttered battlefield, a crowded bar room or swing across a chasam to reach your target. Depending on the circumstances he may need to make one or more checks (balance, tumble, etc.) to successfully make it over the terrain. Like a rose It has been said “That boy could fall in a pile of Dung and come out smelling like a rose”. Well at 4th level, it’s true. A 4th level Dashing Swordsman can no longer become dirty, has hair that is always combed, and always smells clean and faintly of cologne. In addition the Dashing Swordsman never suffers form morning breath, smelly feet or any other type of body odor. Any clothing the Dashing Swordsman puts on instantly becomes clean and pressed. Better lucky then good By 5th level the gods of the clueless start to watch over the dashing Swordsman as one of their own, at 5th level you may as a immediate action force a opponent to re-roll a successful attack roll or critical confirmation once a day, this may be used twice a day at 7th level and at 10th level you can force a opponent to re-roll a entire full attack action once a day. Skill Mastery At 6th level a Dashing Swordsman has become so confident in the use of certain skills that he can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. When making a Balance, Climb, Jump, Tumble or Perform check, he can take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent him from doing so. Fast acrobatics A Dashing Swordsman of 9th level can avoid the normal penalties for accelerated movement while using his acrobatic talents. He ignores the normal -5 when making a balance check while moving at full speed; he may climb at half speed as a move action without taking the -5 penalty. Finally he can Tumble at his full speed without taking the -10 to the check.
ScorpiusRisk 12-11-07, 07:23 PM	I love the idea behind this class but think it's a bit over powered. The three areas where this seems to be the case are: 1. Dashing strike A dashing swordsman spouts insults, catch phrases and bad puns as he fights. This gives him a moral bonus on weapon damage rolls equal to his Charisma modifier. 2. Too pretty to die Most Dashing Swordsman are told early in life that they will have to use their good looks to skate by, and boy is it ever true. Once per day per class level as an immediate action a Dashing swordsman may add his Charisma bonus to any one saving throw he has to make. 3. Oh god, not in the face!! Any good hero knows everything will be ok so long as they come out looking good, as a result of this a 3rd Level Dashing swordsman may add his Charisma modifier to his armor class up to his class level. He looses this benefit if he is wearing armor heavier then light or is disguised as to hide his appearance These are ever increasing abilities. A smart bard can take this class at 7th level and cap it at 16th. That same bard can certainly work a +10 charisma bonus by then. + 10 to AC and up to 10 saves a day, not to mention every single attack? That's a big deal. Suggestions: Make this a 5 level class. Give the In the Nick of Time (cinematic) ability at level 5 and drop every thing else that happens after that. Then make it so you can only gain a bonus from Dashing Strike up to your class level. At the end of 5 levels you get a +5 Bonus to AC, to Attack and to 5 saves a day. That's still kind of awesome. You also get a full attack bonus for any rogues or bards entering the class.
Watsyurname529 12-11-07, 08:27 PM	It's not really that overpowered at all when you compare what other classes can do at 16th level. Wizards can preform at least 7th level spells by then if not 8th (AFB at the moment). Clerics and Druids do the same thing and that's just spellcasting. A well tuned Barbarian or Fighter can deal out massive damage. A TWF Rogue has around +8d6 Sneak Attack which is at least +16d6 damage not counting buffs and equipment. Yea, not that overpowered, in fact, Bards do need the boost and pretty badly.
Maat_Mons 12-11-07, 11:40 PM	Dashing strike A dashing swordsman spouts insults, catch phrases and bad puns as he fights. This gives him a moral bonus on weapon damage rolls equal to his Charisma modifier. I really think this should be limited by weapon somehow. One option would be to limit it to weapons with which you can use weapon finesse, much like the swashbuckler’s insightful strike. Since you have weapon finesse as a prerequisite for the class and you seem to be going for a bit of a swashbuckler-y theme, that has some nice thematic consistency. Don’t hate the player, hate the game A dashing Swordsman adds half his class level to all Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather information, Sense motive and Perform checks Vs. a member of the opposite sex. How ever due to jealousy he takes an equal penalty on said checks Vs. members of his same sex. You should probably replace “member of the opposite sex” with “creature attracted to members of his race and sex” and “members of his same sex” with “creatures attracted to members of his race but not his sex.” There are lots of creatures with male and female genders that have no reason to be subject to or jealous of the swordsman’s charms. Better lucky then good By 5th level the gods of the clueless start to watch over the dashing Swordsman as one of their own, at 5th level you may as a immediate action force a opponent to re-roll a successful attack roll or critical confirmation once a day, this may be used twice a day at 7th level and at 10th level you can force a opponent to re-roll a entire full attack action once a day. Do you wait until the entire routine is resolved, and then force all the attacks to be redone? Do you wait until the entire routine is resolved, and then force only specific attacks to be redone? Do you declare you are using this ability at some point during the attack routine and gain the ability to force any subsequent attack in that routine to be re-rolled immediately after it is made?
Thefurmonger 12-12-07, 09:59 AM	First let me say Thank you to all of you that have responded. Ill reply one at a time. ScorpiusRisk: While I agree that +10 to AC, 10 saves a day and dammage is quite a lot, if you are a bard you also loose bardic music, spell casting and lore. When Compared to a Barb/FB or even a Swash/duelest I dont think its OP at all. But as with most things what is overpowered is rarley a black and white issue. all I can say is in our campaign it will not be. P.S: Glad you love the flavor. Watsyurname529: Thank you for your oppinion, thats really what I was thinking as well. Maat_Mons: I totally agree on the weapon finesse thing, i hadent thought of it but it makes total sense. For "Don't hate the player, hate the game" We had thought about putting just that type of stipulation in it but in the end went for simplicity. My DM I'm sure will add or remove the bonus in abnormal situations as they come up, but I wanted to keep the rules as easy as I could. For the Capstone of better lucky then good you would wait untill the entire attack routine rolls are made then force the whole thing to be re-rolled, yes its a pain when fighting a maralith (sp) but as its once a day i didnt think it to be that bad. Again, THANK YOU to all, plaese keep it coming.
Surgo 12-12-07, 10:12 AM	This class is one level long. Three at the very most. I'd give it some higher-level abilities that actually matter and give an incentive to continue taking this class. I'd make bardic music a requirement, let it stack with Bard spellcasting, and then do a few other things. This is really a horrible PrC for Bards as it stands right now.
Paneki 12-12-07, 11:03 AM	It sure sound like a class I'd play for the fun of it. I had to playtest it the next time I play a bard. Also I have to check how many levels would it be good to extend the prestige class, but 5 doesn't seem bad. Even if it doesn't seem like a too powerful class I'm sure its going to be a load of fun to play it. Thx for the post and the detailed idea.
Thefurmonger 12-15-07, 06:24 PM	You know its funny that one person can think its OP and another think its 1-3 levels and thats it. Anywho, on we go. I think I will limit the Dashing strike to only weapons you can finesse and limit it to your class LVL so if you do dip it your not getting much. As for adding more stuff that matters I really dont know what that would be, any ideas would be great. If i made it continue bard spellcasting there would be no reason NOT to take it, I dont want that. If you want full BAB you have to give somthing up. Just so you all know im going to be playtesting this soon, im currently a Bard2, Swash 3. Ill let you know how it turns out. Paneki. It was ment for just that, Fun. If you want power, roll a full caster or a Barb/FB, I like flavor. And this seems to be full of it. Please if you have any ideas for it, let me know. And again THANK YOU too alll of you, even those that hate it.
Surgo 12-15-07, 11:57 PM	If i made it continue bard spellcasting there would be no reason NOT to take it, I dont want that. If you want full BAB you have to give somthing up. Considering how much the straight Bard sucks, that shouldn't really be a problem. And besides that, a PrC for spellcasters that doesn't advance spellcasting is just not worth taking. At all. You might as well not have spellcasting. And you won't if you take this PrC, because no Bard in their right mind will be taking it (but other classes will, because it's not restricted to Bards). But all of these arguments are pretty useless without some playtesting. So we'll do the best playtesting we can: playing the same game. How does a Bard/Dashing Swordsman fare against the following CR 10 challenges? To be balanced, he should be going 50/50. So here we go, testing the Dashing Swordsman: Name: Darren HP: 69 AC: 27 (touch 19, flat footed 24) Build: Human Bard 6/Dashing Swordsman 5 28 Point Buy: Str 12, Dex 14+2, Con 14+2, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16+2(level)+2 Fort Save: +9 Ref Save: +15 Will Save: +8 Feats: Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse Skills of note: Balance 8, Bluff 8, Diplomacy 8, Hide 13, Move Silently 13, Perform 13, Tumble 8, Use Magic Device 13, Speak Language (everything) Swag: Amulet of Health +2 (4k gp), Cloak of Charisma +2 (4k gp), Vestments of Resistance +3 (9k gp), Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4k gp), +1 flaming rapier (8k gp), +3 chain shirt (9.5k gp), Ring of Protection +2 (8k gp), wand of Wraithstrike (25 charges, 2.25k gp), 250 gold left over for inns, food, etc. Spells known: Level 0: Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Light, Lullaby, Presdigitation, Summon Instrument Level 1: Charm Person, Grease, Silent Image Level 2: Alter Self, Glitterdust To be fair to the Bard, we're going to rule that Fascinate works after initiative has been rolled. This can just as easily not work, but you'll see why we want to rule this way in a moment. The Challenges A Hallway Filled with Magical Runes: Darren's got Detect Magic so he can see them, but just being able to see them doesn't mean he can do anything about them. The fact that he has a decent reflex save and can boost his other saves doesn't make up for his rather low HP. Probable loss. A Fire Giant: The giant's spot is pretty close to Darren's hide, so there's a good chance these guys see each other. Darren's fascinate pretty much shuts down the giant though, and then he can Suggest that the giant go home, which he has a 40% chance of failing. If the giant succeeds, he pounds Darren into dust; Darren's only recourse in this case is using Glitterdust or Silent Image and running away (a default win for the giant). Slightly probable loss. A Young Blue Dragon: Darren can't fly, the dragon can. It flies around and strafes with its lightning breath. However, lightning breath means its in fascinate range! And it's will save is +9, so it has a 40% chance of being told to go home. And if it saves, you die a horrible death. Slightly probable loss. A Bebilith: Darren actually stands a good chance of winning this one if it's a straight-up fight, because he could fascinate it and Suggest that it go home (Bebilith has a Will save of +6, or a 55% chance of failing). If it's not a straight-up fight and the Bebilith ambushes Darren, he'll survive a round with it and then be able to fascinate it. Slightly probable win because Darren was smart enough to take Speak Language (Abyssal). A Vrock: The fascinate->suggestion trick that has been keeping Darren reasonably alive so far isn't going to work here because a Vrock has a will save of +12, meaning the trick has a mere 25% chance of succeeding. The Vrock flies, Darren does not. We all should know how this goes, but if we don't it just uses Mirror Image, flies in, spores, flies out, rinse, repeat. Probable loss. A tag team of Mind Flayers: Darren can fascinate and suggest both Illithids at the same time, but this only has a 16% chance of working because each Illithid has a Will save of +9. Once that fails, the remaining Illithid can levitate out of Darren's reach and shoot Mind Blasts or Charms until he fails a save (45% chance of Illithid success per spell). Darren can't damage it fast enough with his rapier to take it down before it gets out of range (takes one round), because he'll only deal 1d6+1d6+22 on a full-power attack, Wraithstriked shot if he even gets a chance to attack before it levitates. He can chuck acid vials at it, but he'll get Mind Blasted or Charmed long before the 1d6 per vial takes it down. Probable loss. An Evil Necromancer: We all know a level 10 Wizard or Cleric has this one in the bag, and let's not belabor the point. Definite loss. 6 Trolls: Fascinate, suggestion, trolls have a Will save of +3. This only works on two, but that's okay. Any that this doesn't work on get Glitterdusted and Flaming Rapier'ed. Combat Expertise +2 pushes the trolls' attacks out of RNG. Wraithstrike means Darren can hit them really hard. Definite win. A Horde of Shadows. Shadows are immune to the trick that has kept Darren alive this far. Darren is not immune to their strength drain, however, and while he can push their attacks out of RNG with Combat Expertise it only takes two or three hits to eliminate all the strength he has. Definite loss. Final results: Definite Win: 1 Probable Win: 1 Even Match: 0 Probable Loss: 5 Definite Loss:2 Victory: 22.22% Loss: 77.78% That actually seems "semi-decent" if you factor in the "slightly probable loss" nature of a couple of the losses. However, you should note something here: not ONCE was Darren able to make good use of any of the abilities he got from Dashing Swordsman. Also note that this entire contest hinged on being able to Fascinate creatures engaged with you after initiave has been rolled. This ruling can really go either way based on what I read in the SRD. If this ruling is wrong, you can quite seriously move ALL of Darren's wins and even matches into the loss category. Seriously. Every win that Darren gets hinges on a shaky and liberal ruling of Fascinate. It's actually a really cute trick that still stands a good chance of working, but the problem is that it doesn't matter anymore because Darren got it at level 6 and has since left the Bard class, so it has been slowly but steadily running out of steam has he continued on the way up to level 10. What does this mean? It means that our tenth-level Darren is depending entirely on the trick he got as a 6th level Bard, and never anything that he gets as Dashing Swordsman. The best thing he gets as a Dashing Swordsman is a +4 to his AC and attacks. The boost to saves is cute but most of the time won't even matter because Darren's opponents can just hover out of his reach and continue to use their at-will abilities, running Darren out of save boosters. So, yeah. Give something to the class to give a Bard a reason to actually take this. Because they're entirely dependent on their Fascinate->Suggestion combo to take care of enemies, and there's as much of a chance of that not actually working in combat as there is of it working in combat, depending on how you read it. In which case, everything simply collapses into a 100% loss rate outside of the trolls. edit: Screwed up my math, the corrections of which majorly change things in favor of Team Monster.
Maat_Mons 12-16-07, 01:47 AM	A CR 10 encounter is an appropriate challenge for four ECL 10 characters. An ECL 11 character isn’t supposed to be able to take on a CR 10 challenge by himself. Four CR 7 creatures are supposed to be an appropriate challenge for four ECL 11 characters. You could perhaps ague that one ECL 11 character should be able to take on one CR 7 creature by himself. That would require ignoring the concept of party roles, however. The class needs more useful features, but your examples don’t actually make that point.
Surgo 12-16-07, 11:41 AM	A CR 10 encounter is an appropriate challenge for four ECL 10 characters. Whether or not its "appropriate" for four ECL 10 characters does nothing to change the fact that a CR 10 encounter should be going 50/50 with an ECL 10 character. That is the definition of CR, and what being level 10 means. That an ECL 10 character should not be going 50/50 with CR 10 challenges is a common, but false, misconception. Here's why: an ECL 10 character is defined to be CR 10. Any character is obviously going to go 50/50 with itself and thus CR 10 challenges in general. That's what being level 10 means.
Maat_Mons 12-16-07, 08:53 PM	Let’s take a moment to look at the examples you have given and calculate their ECLs. Fire Giant: 15 HD + 4 LA = ECL 19 Young Blue Dragon: 12 HD + 5 LA = ECL 17 Vrock: 10 HD + 8 LA = ECL 18 Mind Flayer: 8 HD + 7 LA = ECL 15 Troll: 6 HD + 5 LA = ECL 11 First of all, if we use your idea that ECL and CR are somehow equivalent, there is no reason to prefer comparing creatures by CR instead of ECL when ECL is known for both. All the monsters for which ECL are known have much higher ECLs than Darren (the trolls tie him individually, but there are six of them). You may also notice that a troll is ECL 11 and six trolls make an 11th level encounter. So, if any ECL 11 character should win against an 11th level encounter half the time, one troll should beat six trolls half the time. Trolls do not become any more threatening in large groups.
Surgo 12-16-07, 09:04 PM	I'm saying what's appropriate for an ECL 10 character to face in terms of CR, not what the ECL of CR 10 monsters are. Because that varies. Widely. A CR 10 character is going to have an ECL 10 if he takes only class levels. A CR 10 fire giant is going to have an ECL 19. Yet they are both CR 10. Look; the very definition of challenge rating says that a level 10 character should be going 50/50 with things that are CR 10. That is what it means to be a level 10 character. We can even look at this another equivalent way if you don't believe me. I'll just quote somebody else here because they said it a lot more cleanly than I could: Just figured out where our disconnect is - K, the BBR shouldn't be able to take on monsters of CR 7 by himself & have a fair chance of winning. He's supposed to have 3 other PC's alongside him. Actually, yes he is. That's the beauty of the CR system - it goes both ways. A party of four 7th level adventurers are supposed to take on an EL 7 encounter and use up only 20% of their resources defeating it. An EL 11 encounter is supposed to be enough to defeat the party half the time. If you double the number of villains or halve the number of player characters, the EL of the opposition goes up by 2. Enemy PCs have a CR of their level. So if a 7th level party faces... a 7th level party (such as themselves in a mirror match), that's an EL 11 encounter. The PCs are supposed to win half the time and lose half the time. Which seems intuitively accurate if you're fighting mirror duplicates of your own team. If a 7th level party... of only a single 7th level character goes out walking, all the enemies are considered 4 EL higher (because the party is 1/4 size). So if he encounters himself, that's still EL 11 and he's expected to win half the time. And if he encounters any other CR 7 opposition, that's also supposed to go 50/50. What I think you missed is that, in my last post, I implied that the "ECL 10 character" was going to be something akin to a human with 10 class levels, and thus CR 10. My bad for not stating that explicitly.
Sir_Chivalry 12-16-07, 09:28 PM	Um OP.... You forgot the immunity to slashing damage from broken glass. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html But, I love what you've done. Don't change.
Maat_Mons 12-16-07, 10:03 PM	An ECL 10 character is defined to be CR 10. A CR 10 character is going to have an ECL 10 if he takes only class levels. A CR 10 fire giant is going to have an ECL 19. Yet they are both CR 10. If you are no longer claiming that every ECL 10 character is CR 10, then that is one point of contention behind us. Look; the very definition of challenge rating says that a level 10 character should be going 50/50 with things that are CR 10. Well, my DMG defines CR thusly: A monster’s Challenge Rating (CR) tells you the level of the party for which that monster is a good challenge. I can’t find anywhere in the section on challenge rating where it says what you claim. If you can find anywhere in any rulebook where it actually says that, by all means point it out to me. In your quote, it is claimed that an encounter at a level 4 higher than the groups level should be winnable half the time. This is another statement for which I can find no support in the rules. Here is the closest statement I can find: Overpowering: The PCs should run. If they don’t, they will almost certainly lose. The encounter level is five or more levels higher than the party level. Your scenario falls one level short of “[He] will almost certainly lose.” One step up from almost certain doom is what, 20% chance of victory?
Surgo 12-16-07, 10:26 PM	If you are no longer claiming that every ECL 10 character is CR 10, then that is one point of contention behind us. I think you missed where I said: "What I think you missed is that, in my last post, I implied that the "ECL 10 character" was going to be something akin to a human with 10 class levels, and thus CR 10. My bad for not stating that explicitly." There shouldn't have ever been a point of contention, but misunderstandings abound with implications. I can’t find anywhere in the section on challenge rating where it says what you claim. Look at page 37 of the DMG. Under "Challenge Ratings for NPCs." It says, very clearly, that someone with a PC class (and no other CR bonuses from race) has a challenge rating equal to their level. So a 10th level human is going to be CR 10. A character that fights a mirror match of himself is going to be fighting an encounter with a CR of his level (assuming no racial shenanigans, but those will be making him weaker anyway), and by definition of a mirror match that is going to go 50/50. Thus, a CR 10 character should go 50/50 with the list of CR 10 challenges. And if you look at the "Very Difficult" section (the encounter will be, as my quote said, an EL of 4 higher than the PC's level) under the "Difficulty" heading that you cited earlier, you'll see that that is confirming this, in fewer words and more flowery language.
Maat_Mons 12-16-07, 11:27 PM	I think you missed where I said: "What I think you missed is that, in my last post, I implied that the "ECL 10 character" was going to be something akin to a human with 10 class levels, and thus CR 10. My bad for not stating that explicitly." I did not miss that. My point was both that your assumption was wholly unfounded and that you were effectively arguing a completely false point by improperly qualifying your statement. There shouldn't have ever been a point of contention… There shouldn’t have been “a point advanced or maintained in a debate” (the definition of contention)? I’m unclear on how debates work without points. …but misunderstandings abound with implications. Particularly if you’re in the habit of saying things that aren’t true because you are making assumptions that you aren’t telling anyone about, apparently. I can’t find anywhere in the section on challenge rating where it says what you claim. Look at page 37 of the DMG. You claimed, specifically, that a 50% chance of victory for one player is the definition of CR. Even if it were true that one player always had a 50% chance of victory against a monster of CR equal to his level, that would be a quality of CR, not the definition of CR unless, where CR was being defined, it literally had the phrase “50% chance of victory,” or something similar, written down. So a 10th level human is going to be CR 10. A character that fights a mirror match of himself is going to be fighting an encounter with a CR of his level (assuming no racial shenanigans, but those will be making him weaker anyway), and by definition of a mirror match that is going to go 50/50. Thus, a CR 10 character should go 50/50 with the list of CR 10 challenges. Here’s the point where the argument stops being reasonable: “There is a CR 10 creature that an ECL 10 character has a 50% chance against, so an ECL 10 character must have a 50% chance against every CR 10 creature.” Proof by example (also known as inappropriate generalisation) is a logical fallacy whereby one or more examples are claimed as "proof" for a more general statement. And if you look at the "Very Difficult" section (the encounter will be, as my quote said, an EL of 4 higher than the PC's level) under the "Difficulty" heading that you cited earlier, you'll see that that is confirming this, in fewer words and more flowery language. It says “one PC might very well die.” That is no cause to extrapolate a 50% probability.
Surgo 12-16-07, 11:30 PM	Here’s the point where the argument stops being reasonable: “There is a CR 10 creature that an ECL 10 character has a 50% chance against, so an ECL 10 character must have a 50% chance against every CR 10 creature.” Except they totally don't, and that's not even what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that they should be winning 50% of their encounters and losing 50% of their encounters. In some cases that means 100% win against a certain CR 10 monster, and in some cases that means 100% loss against a certain CR 10 monsters. Between the total, it should be 50%. More than that is overpowered. Less than that is underpowered. It is not a "proof by example", it is an extrapolation based on the sole example of such behavior that the DMG gives us.
Maat_Mons 12-17-07, 12:33 AM	It’s not a valid extrapolation. One instance should never be used to try to establish a pattern. Just because you don’t have enough information to make a good extrapolation doesn’t free you to make a bad extrapolation and pretend it’s good. Assuming things must conform on average to one example is not fundamentally different from assuming they conform exactly to the pattern. It’s not any less fallacious. Now for a random analogy: Let’s say you stop one woman on the street and ask her how many glasses of water she drinks in a day. She says she averages 8. Do you feel you can assume the female population, as a whole, averages 8 glasses of water a day? Just because you’re not assuming every woman averages 8 glasses a day doesn’t mean that assumption is any more correct.
Maat_Mons 12-17-07, 12:56 AM	I think I will limit the Dashing strike to only weapons you can finesse and limit it to your class LVL so if you do dip it your not getting much. I’d leave dashing strike uncapped. Instead, I’d switch dashing strike with oh god, not in the face. You know it’s funny that one person can think its OP and another think its 1-3 levels and that’s it. Well, the fist level is too good for a first level, but the total power is too low if you take all the levels. That’s sort of like being both over and under powered. Too pretty to die Most Dashing Swordsman are told early in life that they will have to use their good looks to skate by, and boy is it ever true. Once per day per class level as an immediate action a Dashing swordsman may add his Charisma bonus to any one saving throw he has to make. Would you mind clarifying, is this decision made before or after you roll? In the nick of time It doesn’t do for the Dashing Swordsman to arrive right AFTER the fair maiden has been killed. As a result a Dashing Swordsman of 2nd lvl receives a +2 competence bonus to Initive. At 6th level the Dashing Swordsman does not take and environmental damage on the first round of combat, for example for breaking through a glass window, charging through a wall of fire, etc. At 8th level the Dashing Swordsman can use Expedious retreat (swift) as a Spell like ability once a day. Have you considered expanding the use of this ability to charges? I assume the intent here is to ignore damage associated with moving through a space; I not completely clear on the wording. Would you also consider it appropriate to protect the swordsman from attacks of opportunity when this ability applies?
Surgo 12-17-07, 01:34 AM	That's not the same thing at all, because we have a measure of how much water our character drinks because of its CR. You could say that all monsters of CR 10 have vastly different power levels, but that's even more hokey than saying that they all have close to the same power level. And that is the purpose of the gauntlet of CR 10 challenges. The Dashing Swordsman needs to be able to do something meaningful to fire giants, young blue dragons, bebiliths, vrocks, and illithids, because he is a level 10 character. He clearly cannot* (the results speak quite clearly on that matter), and our CR 10 Dashing Swordsman is not even in the same strata of power as these CR 10 monsters / challenges. * I failed to note that Diplomacy is a class skill, or whatever. We're assuming you aren't going to cheese out Diplomacy here. Because if you do, the entire encounter system has already broken down long before this point. So Diplomacy abuse is out the window so we can have a game that still makes sense.
Maat_Mons 12-17-07, 02:27 AM	We have a measure of how much water our character drinks because of its CR. No, you’re trying to find “a measure of how much water our character drinks because of its CR.” You could say that all monsters of CR 10 have vastly different power levels, but that's even more hokey than saying that they all have close to the same power level. Among your examples, you list one as a definite win and two as a definite loss. That means your probability of winning can indeed vary greatly between CR 10 monsters. There will be variations between the difficulty you have fighting monsters of the same CR. You can’t know if the difficulty of one particular monster (yourself, in the case you’re trying to extrapolate from) is average, high, or low. The fact that these monsters are the same CR only helps you on one point. You can assume there is some maximum difference in difficulty between any two monsters of the same CR. (That is, monsters of the same CR can have different power levels, but only to a point.) The question then is can you make an argument for what that maximum difference is, and use it to put a bound on the average? Since there exist variations greater than 50% between your chances of winning against particular CR 10 monsters, the answer is no.
Thefurmonger 12-17-07, 02:23 PM	Ok, I'll jump back in here now. I'm going to mostly ignare Surgo's responces simply becuase I do not agree with the way he is doing the examples. I'll leave it to Mr. Mons to try to get that point across. On to people with questions about the class. Sir Chivalry, the broken glass is covered by "in the nick of time (cinimatic)". And I'm glad you like it. as I am playing one now I can tell you just the levels leading up to it are a freakin blast, right now im bard 2 swash 3, soon to enter dashing swordsman. I'll let you know how it turns out. I really should have said this in the begining but I feel it needs to be said here, Altho our campaign does do a lot of combat, it is more dynamic combat (swing from a tapastry across the ballroom, tumble past the line of grunts to chalange the evil mage, etc) also we have a lot of social interaction and RP. Ill be the first to admit that this class isnt the best, hell it may in fact be worse then going straight Bard or Swash, but it looks like a TON of fun to play and really this is a game and games are fun. Having said that I DO want the class to get better, thats why im here. Maat_Mons: With the changes, I hope first level is no longer "too good" +1 Damage, +cha to a save once a day. I am re wording too pretty to die to make it clearer. It is declared before the roll. As for In the nick of time, Ill be honest, the AOO question never occoured to me. I want to say no it does not cover AOO. I dont have a real reason for it other then it doesnt "feel" right to allow it. Its more for broken glass, walls of fire that sort of thing. Really its in there so that great cinimatic moments dont get craped on by decisions to save a few Hp. I know the end of the class is lacking some oomph. I really dont know what to add to make it better but not OP and still fit in with the flavor. I thought Tumbling at full speed with no penelty is rather awsome, especially with swift exp retreat. but maybe your right and it needs more. Almost forgot, THANK YOU too all of you. I need all the input i can get.
Sir_Chivalry 12-17-07, 06:24 PM	I'm sorry that I didn't notice that. Thanks for the point out. Still love the class, going to suggest it to one of my players.