Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rymosrac 08-17-07, 05:20 PM	Deadbolt Sniper Prestige Class Deadbolt Snipers are trained marksmen who focus on the art of killing targets with a single precise shot from extreme range with the use of an often scorned weapon - the crossbow. -----Requirements: To begin the intense training required of deadbolt snipers, the following requirements must be met: Alignment: Any. Feats: Weapon Focus (Any Crossbow), Crossbow Sniper (PHB2). Skills: Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, Spot 8 ranks. Abilities: +3d6 Sneak Attack / Sudden Strike Special: Must have killed an unaware enemy with a single shot from a crossbow. (Optional if you really hate RP requirements. It's just for flavor.) -----Skills: The deadbolt sniper’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis). Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier. -----Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A deadbolt sniper gains no weapon or armor proficiency. -----Progression: Hit Die: d6 BAB Fort Ref Will ---------------------------- 1. +1 +0 +0 +2 Sniper's Camouflage, Ranged Sudden Strike +1d6 2. +2 +0 +0 +3 Silent Kill, Improved Critical 3. +3 +1 +1 +3 Deadbolt Precision, Ranged Sudden Strike +2d6 4. +4 +1 +1 +4 Master Sniper, Augmented Critical 5. +5 +1 +1 +4 Deadbolt Strike, Ranged Sudden Strike +3d6 -----Special Ability Descriptions: Sniper's Camouflage (Ex): At 1st level, the deadbolt sniper can use the hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment. The deadbolt sniper must be prone to use this ability. Sudden Strike (Ex): Identical in all respects to the Ninja's Sudden Strike class feature, and stacks with such, with the exception that it can only be used on attacks with a ranged projectile weapon. Silent Kill (Ex): At 2nd level, the deadbolt sniper can ensure that no one will hear his targets scream. Any time that the deadbolt sniper kills a creature with a shot from a crossbow, they are prevented from making any vocal sounds as they fall. (This isn't amazingly useful, if the DM really wants your kill to be noticed, he'll find a way. This is just to discourage such antics on most occasions.) Improved Critical (Ex): At 2nd level the deadbolt sniper gains the improved critical feat for any crossbow for which he has weapon focus, even if he does not meet the normal requirements for this feat. Deadbolt Precision (Ex): At 3rd level, the deadbolt sniper has learned to locate the weak points in an opponents armor and defenses, and target them specifically. Using this ability is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Select a single opponent and make a spot check against a DC of the targets armor class, followed by a ranged attack with a crossbow for which you have weapon focus against the same target. If the spot check is successful, you may resolve the ranged attack as a touch attack and ignore the range restriction on precision damage such as sneak attack and sudden strike, etc. The crossbow with which you make the attack must be in hand and loaded when you make the spot check, and the target of this ability must be valid as a target of a ranged attack when you initiate this ability. Master Sniper (Ex): At 4th level, a Deadbolt Sniper who has hidden at least 10 feet away from his target can make one or more ranged attacks, then immediately hide again as a swift action. He gains a +10 bonus on the hide check to do so. (effectively reducing the penalty to -10) Augmented Critical (Ex): At 4th level, the critical multiplier of any crossbow for which the deadbolt sniper has the improved critical feat increases by one when making a ranged touch attack using the Deadbolt Precision ability. Deadbolt Strike (Ex):: At 5th level, the deadbolt sniper has mastered his weapon, and can reliably land impossible shots. When making a ranged touch attack using the Deadbolt Precision ability, the attack (if successful) may be considered a critical threat, regardless of the weapon's normal threat range. Alternately, you may gain a +10 bonus on the attack roll and forego the automatic threat. You must choose which benefit to apply before making the attack roll. Note: The class was completely rebuilt during december '07, so much of the discussion in this thread is no longer applicable. I am continuing to make small revisions on an ongoing basis, but I'm fairly happy with where the class stands now.
Rymosrac 08-17-07, 06:42 PM	Edit1: Typos. Edit2: Ditto. Edit3: Ability Shuffling. Edit4: More shuffling, tweaking, and modifying. Should be just about perfect. Edit5: Massive revisions. The class should be barely recognizable. Edit6: Reworked Deadbolt Strike, renamed to Deadbolt Accuracy. Renamed Improved Deadbolt Strike to Deadbolt Impact. Edit7: Added source of ranged precision damage to prerequisites for class. Changed Prepare Ambush to only reduce the sniping penalty to -15. Edit8: Prepare Ambush again reduced the penalty back to -10. If a 10th-level racial substitution level for halfling rogues can do it, a prestige class feature you can't get before 11th level, as part of a class that focuses specifically on doing this can do it too. Edit9: Removed Fast Movement, Added +3d6 Sudden Strike / 10 Levels. Class is a hair less overspecialized now. Edit10: Collapsed class down to 5 levels. Removed most abilities. The overcomplicated prepared ambush ability is gone. Edit11: Rewording to tighten up rules and block potential exploits. Edit12: Adjusted for the revelation that distance penalties to spot checks only apply when determining starting distance for an encounter. Who knew? Edit13: Reworked Deadbolt Accuracy and Strike a bit, renamed accuracy to precision. No major change to effective use, just how the actions are made.
Waldo_di 08-18-07, 02:21 PM	I don't thinks it over powered maybe give him a d6 or d8 and move skills down to 4+int.
Rymosrac 08-18-07, 08:28 PM	That's something I'd been debating. . .Certainly, a d4 hit die makes this guy pretty fragile. My viewpoint was that he shouldn't be taking many hits, since ideally he should be both camouflaged and a long ways off from combat. I figured the low hit die would serve to keep the character fragile enough to keep him out of direct combat without keeping him from doing his intended job. I'm also pretty hesitant to be drop his skills per level, since he's very dependent on his ability to both hide and move silently. His central class ability is completely dependent on those skills. But I'll consider it. Thanks for the input.
StevenO 08-18-07, 09:27 PM	I see the reason for the d4 HD but it really is too low. Flavor wise you'd never expect to see a d4 on a full BAB class because you'd expect the full BAB class to be able to fights. Although it powers up the class I'd go with a d6 HD. Your prereqs need a little work. I have a problem with "Proficiency AND POSSESSION of a heavy type crossbow or greater." The Weapon Focus should be more specific (Heavy Crossbow or whatever else) as that already requires proficiency. I really have a problem with the possession part because it would imply setting the Xbow down will remove many of the class features; it is unneccessary and should be dropped. Given the name of the class I'd also require the Crossbow Sniper feat (PHB2 or CAd,don't recall which). On to abilities: Fast Movement: Too much, too soon. Perhaps a Sniper should have the ability to relocate quickly but given a character that is focused on ranged attacks from hiding it is overkill. Perhap leave the +10' but move it to 8th level. Stealthy Sniper: If any weapon can be used without revealing its location it would be the Xbow. Cutting the penaly in half is good and I'd even consider removing it later. I can see why you may want to be allowed to "keep" a hide check but check your conditions. I'm not sure a Hvy Xbow can be reloaded in a prone possition. Sniping Shot - later Bonus Feats: Ok but make them crossbow specific. The table and text don't match. Hair-Trigger: Unneeded, a readied action already takes care of this unless you have something specific in mind. Distant Sniper: Reducing penalty for range increments is a fine idea. Horizon Sniper: Removing penaly for range increment is not. A much better idea is to expand the range increment or all targetting at more than 10 increments. Most of what is here is pretty good but then one starts looking at what is actually the classes "signature" ability, Sniping Shot. I HATE this ability. The first part effectively says you need to be able to sneak attack but must be outside of normal sneak attack range. Why can it hit harder when it is normally harder to hit accurately? If the ability was restricted to the range of precision damage then maybe the rest wouldn't be so overpowerful. I strongly dislike the auto-threat of SS. It ruins much of what the Improved Critical feat does; perhaps stacking increase to the threat range could work but not auto-threats. What I HATE is the super increasing critical multiplier. The increase may start slowly but getting a x6 crit multiply is crazy especially if you are going to combine that with auto threats. I'd also say this isn't really a PC friendly class. I promotes seperating the characters while at the same time producing a terror for the DM to use against the player. As written with ten levels in this a character can basically be invisible due to distance, hiding, and cover and deal a steady stream of 6d10+30 dmg (x6 crits with a +5 damage bonus) from range. I don't know if you're familiar with it but a couple modifications to the Order of the Bow Initiate make IT an awesome crossbow class. The modifications would change the prereqs from Bow focused to Crossbow focused but after that the rest of the class can basically remain unchanged. It has precision damage that can be used once per turn (wow the typical crossbow only fires that often) and can easily increase the range of that precise attack to 60' (as the class ability or with Crossbow Sniper) or even 90' or 120' depending on how XbS and the expanded precision stack.
Rymosrac 08-18-07, 10:27 PM	Hmm. . .Some very good points there. I guess you've convinced me on the hit die. Up to d6 it goes. I'll definetly concede on the point of prerequisites. They do need retooling. -----Fast Movement: Conceded. I'll probably dump the first +10'. I had intentionally given this a bit more liberally than you usually see fast movement handed out, but upped the requirements. Fast movement usually allows the character to wear light armor, whereas this allows none. But you may still be right. -----Stealthy Sniper: Glad you like it, but I'd be hesitant to completely remove the penalty at some later point. That's the equivalent of an epic - level feat: Legendary Sniper, from the ELH. As for reloading a crossbow while prone, I'm pretty sure it could be done. Might be a bit more difficult, but probably doable. By RAW, it's certainly possible. However, as it's usually at least a move-equivalent action, I assume that most DM's would rule that it would void the ability to use your last hide check. @hat with the moving about and winch-cranking, you're likely to disrupt your carefully-laid camouflage. -----Bonus Feats: I'm actually kinda iffy about these things. I may get rid of them completely. -----Hair-Trigger: The benefit of this one is actually pretty small, but it's there. As I understand it, you usually have to be pretty specific about what is going to trigger your readied action. This basically permits him to trigger it whenever he wants. -----Distant Sniper: No problems here. -----Horizon Sniper: I actually didn't create this one. It's virtually identical in function to an ability from the Cragtop Archer in Races of Stone. And it gets it in the 4th level of a 5 level PrC, so I figured it'd be balanced if I put it in at 8th level here. Especially since it only works in conjunction with the unimaginatively named "snipers shot". But I'll definetly look into reworking or removing it. ------Okay, on to the big troublemaker, the aforementioned snipers shot. I can definetly see where you're coming form on this one. I'd limit it to normal precision damage range - but then what of the far and horizon sniper abilities? They cease to be useful. I might make them apply to all ranged attacks instead of just the sniper's shot, though. I'm going to get rid of the +2 to hit when using this ability for sure. It might makes sense, but this guy already has full BAB, he doesn't need this too. The increasing critical multiplier. . .Yeah, I see what you're saying. But again, this is still a full-round action. The amount of damage an equivalent - level archer can do with their four billion arrows shot per round looks pretty impressive even against this. You gave me 6d10 + 30, which looks pretty reasonable. That's an average of around 60-70 damage per round. I'm actually pretty certain that even a sloppily optimized character can beat that at level 15, which is the soonest this class can be maxed out. I want there to be some way that the player using this can deliver consistently powerful single attacks at long range. That's really what this whole class is about. I'm definetly open to other ideas as to how this should be accomplished. Perhaps make the multiplier an additive to the existing multiplier, and reduce it's progression to 3 over 10 levels instead of 6? As for the roleplaying aspect, you're right. It would encourage this character to shadow the party from a safe distance, which could certainly be a bad thing. But then, the player who would be playing this class has already been acting in this near-paranoid fashion in my current campaign. I'll take another look at the OoTBI, but I kinda doubt he'll go for it.
StevenO 08-19-07, 05:25 PM	A DM building a PrC for a specific character needs to be careful. This is doubly true if you're giving the player any input into the class; too often a player suggesting an entirely new PrC is looking for an advantage that masquarades as a little thing when it is possible to give them most of what they what with current PrCs or with minor modification to them. I don't have the book but did find the preview for the Craigtop Archer. I see Horizon Shot there. Although it may be a small thing you do change it from a supernatural ability to an extrodinary one which is an improvement. I'd also say the entire class is more focused on taking a shot at range. A big part of why I dislike Horizon Shot is what it does for the auto-threat and increased critical multiplier. I actually think aiming for that +2 is entirely fair. You already have a great BAB but taking the time to line up the shot should be worth something. 60-70 damage per round may not seem like much for a 15th level character but you also need to consider a couple other things. One is that when combine with the rest of the abilities here they can easily do that at a distance of 1200 feet or possibly even more which out ranges even long ranged spells. Secondly, there is almost no chance of detection at that range so there is little chance of stopping the assault outside of finding cover. Up close that damage isn't as impressive but in its favored enviroment there is nothing else close. Most of the time you are mentioning Heavy Crossbows when any crossbow should be usable. Reloading the Heavy is a Full round action which can make it unsuitable for many of these abilities. You ask how to improve damage at long range. A simple increase to the threat range offers an improving chance at scoring criticals which are NOT ranged dependant. Just this can improve damage and isn't as overwhelming as auto-threats and the enhanced critical multiplier. If you want to increase damage just tack on a set damage increase. Not tying the damage increase to crits would allow it to affect a larger number of targets and is easier to predict. At the very most I wouldn't expand a critical multiplier past x4 although even x3 is very powerful when combined with an increased threat range.
Rymosrac 08-20-07, 12:04 AM	I know all about the issues with building a PrC specifically to suit a player, which is the reason I put this thing on the boards in the first place. I'd forgotten or missed that Horizon Shot was a Su ability. I'll probably dump horizon sniper, far sniper should be good enough, and discourage firing from absurd distances. And since it's no longer eliminating the penalty for range, I'll probably leave it as Ex. I may also allow it to be used with a standard action, expanding it's use beyond the snipers shot ability. Hmm. . .I guess the +2 can stay on a probationary status. I'm probably going to move hidden sniper a couple levels deeper into the class, and grant camouflage (as the ranger/scout ability) in it's original spot. I'm going to remove the heavy crossbow qualifications from the class and abilities, open it up to any crossbow. I'm beginning to like the idea of reworking the sniper's shot ability to instead of giving a critical multiplier, give extra damage die of the same type as the weapon's base damage. This would adress a couple issues. It would get rid of the exploitable auto-threat, and make the class less crippled vs things immune to critical damage. I'll probably reduce it's progression to 4 times over the class instead of the current six as well. So a light crossbow would get and extra +d8 when using the ability when he first gets it, up to a +4d8 when it's maxed out. Similarly, a hand crossbow would be getting bonus d4 damage, a heavy would be getting d10's. My only possible concern would be if he got his hands on a great crossbow - again from races of stone. It's base damage of 2d8 would then be getting bonuses of up to +8d8 at ten levels of the calss. That's pretty significant. So I may just go with dramatically increased threat range, in which case, the question becomes "how much?" +1 to threat range six times, or four? Three? To make it stackable with improved critical or not? I'll think on it. My last concern is with the range requirements on sniping shot. Certainly you raise a valis point. An undetectable PC flinging a crossbow dart over half of a mile every round (120' range increment, Far Shot for *1.5, Distance weapon preoperty for another *2, and 10 range increments = 3600') is definetly scary. Should I limit it's use to inside precision damage range? With the crossbow sniper feat as a prereq, that would make it 60'. That's still not very far off, but it may be a secessity for balance reasons. That would of course, mean getting rid of the requirement that it be made from outside 30', but I'm fine with that. It was a silly idea to begin with.
StevenO 08-20-07, 08:15 PM	Setting up a "Sniping Shot" as a full attack action that grant bonus damage dice and allows for a free Hide to remain hidden, wouldn't be too bad. At that point is does start looking more like the Order of the Bow Initiate however.
Rymosrac 08-20-07, 11:25 PM	Okay. . .Should be about finished off now. Totally rewrote the sniper's shot, and finally gave it a half-decent name. Shuffled other abilities around. I've been directly comparing it to the OotBI on this go-around, and it should be close to balanced. Probably a hair stronger, but the bow is generally considered to be a superior weapon to the crossbow anyways, so it should even out. Thanks for the input.
Samurai_Zero 08-22-07, 01:17 AM	seemed like a nice class, and ive always wanted to see a C or PRC that deals with the weapon thats mostly left out in the cold, the cross bow. The only people ive ever seen use a crossbow were fighters, and some early level clerics, but even then why use a d8 xbow for x2 dmg when you can have a d8 long bow for x3 at greater ranges. Personally im looking forward to seeing an Assault varient PRC that puts the Repeating Xbow to good use, That my friend would be a class i wouldnt mind trying. Edit: Well finish this class up and post the results, i had some great flavor ideas for game environment.
Rymosrac 08-22-07, 03:59 AM	I think I'm about done with this class. Barring any issues anyone finds with it, it'll be undergoing playtesting in my current campaign. And if no major problems turn up, this can be considered a finished product. Oh, and the carachter in the party who will probably be the one wanting to try it out is playing a Complete Adventurer Ninja - And has been using a repeating heavy xbow to devastating effect. As for a fighter-type that focuses on using a repeating crossbow. . .I'll think about it. May have seen something like what you're looking for somewhere.
Rymosrac 08-31-07, 02:18 AM	:bump: Completely rebuilt the class abilities. Figured I may as well bump it back up for further feedback while I'm at it. I think this thing's ready for playtesting. I had hoped to work in some sudden strike dice, but I'm afraid that would be pushing it.
StevenO 08-31-07, 02:07 PM	You know you should have used that second post you "reserved" to track the changes you've made. This latest version is completely different from the original and I'd never associate the two unless I'd posted previously. I think a few of these new features are too good. Looking at the skill list you should drop the skill points back to only 4 per level although I could even see two. The class's most important skill is hide with spot being a close second, move silently isn't nearly as important because of the range involved but you could still count this as the third needed skill. After spending a skill point in each of those three the next choice would probably be climb so you can get in good sniping positions and possibly balance but because those aren't opposed check they don't need to be as high so I figure you'd get by with 4 + Int for skill points. Now on to the abilities. Camouflage should have some set up time with it as I don't think it should be something easy to do. Deadbolt Strike: This ability just doesn't work because of how a crossbow works. A loaded crossbow is already highly stressed and as a mechanical device isn't well suited to overdrawing. If it were possible the device would probably break instead of just having you lose the effect. Prepared Ambush: I like the concept but have a little trouble with the execution. What I dislike it the combination of take 20 and keep it but then also reducing the hide penalty while sniping from -20 to -10. My suggestion it to keep the take 20 part but don't reduce the sniping penalty. Because you are keeping a 20 I'd also consider making the spot check to find you again easier for each shot taken in some amount of time. I'm thinking of a cumlative +1 spot bonus for each shot taken within three rounds, if you go one minute without firing (10 rounds) the bonus falls one point per round. Improved Deadbolt has the same problem as the original. I don't know that the static damage increase is so bad however.
Rymosrac 08-31-07, 04:37 PM	Yeah, probably should have. But didn't. Silly me. I'm not too interested in giving camouflage a set-up time. No other class that gets the ability requires one. Yeah. . . I figured deadbolt strike would get disputed on account of realism. It could be explained as being accomplished with custom modifications to said crossbow, but then then there'd be the issue of whether or not he can use it with crossbows he hasn't posessed long enough to modify, and why other people wouldn't be able to use the same modifications. The ability certainly isn't overpowered, though. The same thing can be accomplished by a 1st-level psychic warrior using psionic meditation and fell shot: Psionic Meditation: Gain psionic focus a move action. Fell shot: Expend psionic focus to make ranged attack a ranged touch attack. I may change it to a Su ability to avoid realism complaints. Same goes for the improved version. On prepare ambush, if I change it so that the penalty remains at -20, then the ability really isn't giving a whole lot of benefit past regular use of the hide skill. Cumulative effects for making shots from cover is something I've been trying to work out. I think I'd rather it impose a penalty on the value of the original hide check, representing the disruption of his camouflage from firing. I'd also make the penalties remain until the ability was again used to prepare / repair the camouflage. There's a epic-level feat that completely removes the sniping penalty. This ability halves it, can't be gotten sooner than 11th level, and only halves it when the sniper has enough time to take 20 on his hide. Sure, it's potent, but I don't think it's too much. Might change it, though. Skill points back to 4.
StevenO 08-31-07, 08:51 PM	The BIG advantage of your Prepared Ambush is the ability to take 20 on your hide check and then keep it. I guess keeping the -20 would make the spot DC equal to your hide modifier although one shouldn't overlook range penalties as every 100' is -10 Spot. Cutting the sniping penalty in half I feel would leave the spot DC at any decent range to difficult to make unless you add make follow up shots that much more likely to be seen. Looking at the normal -20 sniping penalty that would cancel your "take 20" hide check which means the spot check is your skill modifier + range modifier. Assuming the spotter has the same general skill modifier using Prepared Ambush at 100' (about one range increment) given the spotter about a 50% chance of locating the shooter which really should be true for someone with that high of spot check. If only using a -10 penalty for sniping you'd become virtually impossible to detect at 100' even from a highly trained observer. I hope this is making sense. With the Deadbolt Strike feature you make want to look at some similar options that aren't quite as unbelievable. I can't remember which book it is in but I believe there is a feat/feature that allow a character to spend an action (standard or full round I think) observing a target and then make a Spot check vs the target's AC; if Spot is successful the next attack would ignore armor and natural AC. You've already given the class Farsight and it should have a high spot check this should be an option to strongly consider.
Rymosrac 08-31-07, 11:05 PM	Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. With the penalty being reduced to -10, the sniper would be able to get off maybe 4-5 shots before he could be reliably spotted by someone with as many spot ranks as he posesses hide ranks. That does sound pretty strong, but I also wouldn't want to make it too easy to spot him. Maybe reduce it to -15? Keeping it at -20 wouldn't be all that bad, but shouldn't this guy be at least a little bit better than average joe? As for deadbolt strike, I recognize the feat you're describing, but can't remember where it's found. . .might even be a maneuver from ToB. I like the flavor. I'm not extremely fond of the mechanics, but I'll consider it. Maybe if the DC wasn't the targets entire AC, but just their flat-footed armor AC, meaning 10 + the natural armor, armor, and sheild bonuses that you would be negating. Edit: Found the feat. Deft Strike from Complete Adventurer. Except this feat requires a standard, meaning you could only do it every other turn. Also there's a skill trick that lets you do it once per encounter out of Complete Scoundrel. I like the basic mechanic, but I'll keep it a move-equivalent action. This'll allow the snipper to try it every round, but still be limited to a single attack each round. Longer, depending on what kind of crossbow he's using and whether or not he has rapid reload.
zeratulcraft 02-22-08, 12:58 AM	I like the Level 2 ability. "Once, when you drop a target, you ignore one act of DM Fiat."
Rymosrac 02-25-08, 10:11 AM	Zeratulcraft casts Raise Thread. CL check beats the threads SR. It's really more of a formal "Please don't screw me over." than "STFU, no one notices mah kill!" If the DM really wants the shot to be noticed, it will be. Like I stated, it's just to discourage such antics - most of the time. I might revise it to still allow a scream if you don't kill them outright but just drop them into negatives. Also, I just went back and ironed out a couple more things that were a hair too exploitable.