Deepwarden PrC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Deepwarden PrC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Psyber7
06-05-07, 03:27 PM The Deepwarden PrC (RoS p. 105-106) is pretty beefy and straight forward, but I am seeking opinions/clarification on their Stone Warden special ability. Below are the abilities pertaining to my current conundrum.

Stone Warden (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level the deepwarden knows how to use his strengths to compensate for his weaknesses. He adds his Constitution bonus to AC instead of his Dexterity, if the character's Constitution bonus is higher. The deepwarden loses this bonus to AC whenever he would normally be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. In such a situation the deepwarden would be considered flat-footed.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a deepwarden can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any, or his Constitution bonus if higher) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity (or Constitution) bonus to AC if immobilized.
If a character already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A deepwarden of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
So, what I'm wondering is thus;

Since it's not a Dex bonus to AC, does it surpass the Max Dex Bonus on Armor or is the applicable Constitution bonus still limited by the armors Max Dex? As an example; would a 2nd level Deepwarden in Fullplate with Dex 14 and Con 18 gets +4 AC (whole Con bonus) from the Stone Warden feature; or only +1 (Max Dex of the Armor)? It could be interpreted that since it replaces and is treated like a Dex bonus, the Max Dex would apply; but at the same time it is NOT a Dex bonus.

I appreciate any constructive input on this matter.
El_Machinae
06-05-07, 03:34 PM With Stonewarden, you'll get huge debates and people will hold out until the bitter end.

I figure that the AC is derived from "leaning into" the attack and thus robbing it of its potential to do serious harm by forcing it to do trivial harm instead. Either that or "bracing" for the attack. Both these thematic explanations show why it replaces Dex instead of augmenting Dex. This 'leaning'/'bracing' can be done rather easily and so shouldn't be hindered by armour.

RAW-wise, the only time the Con is mentioned to be taken away is when the character would then be treated as flat-footed. Something that certainly needn't happen whilst in plate armour.
heisenheim
06-05-07, 03:48 PM last faq give us a more clear answer about the stone warden ability.

it doesn't overcome the max dex bonus to ac from the armor
Psyber7
06-06-07, 01:16 AM El Machinae and Heisenhiem, thanks for the input. I'll dbl check the FAQ again, since I seemed to have missed it in there.
Flay Crimsonwind
06-06-07, 01:17 AM This is what makes the deepwarder class so broken for high-con frontline melee types, in that it isn't a dex bonus and thus can be utilized in the fullest armor. So get a +8 con score and fullplate and aside from touch attacks you're pretty badass. Save for I'm not sure it applies to your Touch AC, nothing'll hurt you that often.
goawayugh
06-06-07, 10:23 AM Stone Warden (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level the deepwarden knows how to use his strengths to compensate for his weaknesses. He adds his Constitution bonus to AC instead of his Dexterity, if the character's Constitution bonus is higher. The deepwarden loses this bonus to AC whenever he would normally be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. In such a situation the deepwarden would be considered flat-footed.

Instead of....

Since your Dex bonus in Full Plate would be +1 then your Con bonus would only be +1.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psyber7 06-05-07, 03:27 PM	The Deepwarden PrC (RoS p. 105-106) is pretty beefy and straight forward, but I am seeking opinions/clarification on their Stone Warden special ability. Below are the abilities pertaining to my current conundrum. Stone Warden (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level the deepwarden knows how to use his strengths to compensate for his weaknesses. He adds his Constitution bonus to AC instead of his Dexterity, if the character's Constitution bonus is higher. The deepwarden loses this bonus to AC whenever he would normally be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. In such a situation the deepwarden would be considered flat-footed. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a deepwarden can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any, or his Constitution bonus if higher) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity (or Constitution) bonus to AC if immobilized. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead. Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A deepwarden of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character. So, what I'm wondering is thus; Since it's not a Dex bonus to AC, does it surpass the Max Dex Bonus on Armor or is the applicable Constitution bonus still limited by the armors Max Dex? As an example; would a 2nd level Deepwarden in Fullplate with Dex 14 and Con 18 gets +4 AC (whole Con bonus) from the Stone Warden feature; or only +1 (Max Dex of the Armor)? It could be interpreted that since it replaces and is treated like a Dex bonus, the Max Dex would apply; but at the same time it is NOT a Dex bonus. I appreciate any constructive input on this matter.
El_Machinae 06-05-07, 03:34 PM	With Stonewarden, you'll get huge debates and people will hold out until the bitter end. I figure that the AC is derived from "leaning into" the attack and thus robbing it of its potential to do serious harm by forcing it to do trivial harm instead. Either that or "bracing" for the attack. Both these thematic explanations show why it replaces Dex instead of augmenting Dex. This 'leaning'/'bracing' can be done rather easily and so shouldn't be hindered by armour. RAW-wise, the only time the Con is mentioned to be taken away is when the character would then be treated as flat-footed. Something that certainly needn't happen whilst in plate armour.
heisenheim 06-05-07, 03:48 PM	last faq give us a more clear answer about the stone warden ability. it doesn't overcome the max dex bonus to ac from the armor
Psyber7 06-06-07, 01:16 AM	El Machinae and Heisenhiem, thanks for the input. I'll dbl check the FAQ again, since I seemed to have missed it in there.
Flay Crimsonwind 06-06-07, 01:17 AM	This is what makes the deepwarder class so broken for high-con frontline melee types, in that it isn't a dex bonus and thus can be utilized in the fullest armor. So get a +8 con score and fullplate and aside from touch attacks you're pretty badass. Save for I'm not sure it applies to your Touch AC, nothing'll hurt you that often.
goawayugh 06-06-07, 10:23 AM	Stone Warden (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level the deepwarden knows how to use his strengths to compensate for his weaknesses. He adds his Constitution bonus to AC instead of his Dexterity, if the character's Constitution bonus is higher. The deepwarden loses this bonus to AC whenever he would normally be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. In such a situation the deepwarden would be considered flat-footed. Instead of.... Since your Dex bonus in Full Plate would be +1 then your Con bonus would only be +1.