Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Unicorn_Giggles 09-18-07, 06:14 AM	I'm looking to create an epic NPC (and I mean overshadowing Iggwilv sort of epic) whose forté is summoning demons. I'm trying to settle on a good summoning-related prestige class and right now I've got the Demonologist (Book of Vile Darkness) and the Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East) in mind, but maybe there is another, better class that I'm overlooking?
Khatoblepas 09-18-07, 07:57 AM	Admiral Akbar will tell you about the Demonologist. Nar Demonbinder is okay, but it isn't great. It only gets 8th level spells, when you could be casting 9th level spells (like Gate, etc). The only builds I've seen where it isn't a minor focus is Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Nar Demonbinder 2/Gish PrC 7. Melee summoner with 8th level spells and almost full BAB. Nice BBEG's Second In Command, but not a good BBEG. Also the Far Demonbinder (Archivist/Alienist/Nar Demonbinder/Mystic Theurge/Thaumaturgist) I made, but that's not what you want as it focused more on the Far Realm. Neither are particularily epic ready, since the Far Demonbinder doesn't readily get epic feats until 23-25, and the melee summoner doesn't get 9th level spells, so no epic spellcasting :( Personally, I like the Demonbinder from the Tome of Magic (Truename/Divine casting class) which gets a demon cohort thrall thingy for Truenaming checks :). The Malvonvoker (Complete Mage) is said to be good, too, though I'm AFB at the moment so I can't confirm that's what I'm thinking of. But whatever you do, don't take Demonologist.
Unicorn_Giggles 09-18-07, 08:35 AM	The Far Demonbinder which you described (even though “demon” and the “Far Realm” aren’t really contusive) sounds interesting, but how would that work in regards to actually summoning Outsiders from the Far Realm? The only monsters off the top of my head that I can recall native to it are those purple rope things detailed in Lords of Madness and the Uvuudaum in the epic manual. Is there some sourcebook or issue of Dragon that I’m missing that lists several more?
Khatoblepas 09-18-07, 09:45 AM	The Far Demonbinder which you described (even though “demon” and the “Far Realm” aren’t really contusive) sounds interesting, but how would that work in regards to actually summoning Outsiders from the Far Realm? The only monsters off the top of my head that I can recall native to it are those purple rope things detailed in Lords of Madness and the Uvuudaum in the epic manual. Is there some sourcebook or issue of Dragon that I’m missing that lists several more? Pseudonatural creatures, some creatures from the Fiend Folio, etc. There were more Far Realms creatures in a Dragon magazine, but nothing much. The build was mostly flavor. It used the Archivist casting to summon a variety of things, and the Nar Demonbinder casting as an augmentation to that. To be honest, it's not all that strong.
Unicorn_Giggles 09-18-07, 11:02 AM	Isn’t Pseudonatural Creature an epic monster template? Even if you applied it to the weakest monster possible (for the sake of argument, I’ll say a quasit), it would be a ridiculously powerful ally. I assume this isn’t the right class for people of lower levels?
Khatoblepas 09-18-07, 12:39 PM	It's the Complete Arcane version of the Pseudonatural template. It's a little more powerful than the Fiendish/Celestial template, but nothing to write home about. The Far Demonbinder doesn't really have many lowpoints, as it loses a total of 1 caster level. So it can be played 1-20, and is a mid-range caster class (between straight archivist and Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7) Past that, eh, it's not that good. Lacks epic feats. Anyway, I found out the Tome of Magic class is called "Fiendbinder" and it gets permanent demonic slaves.
Avenger314 09-18-07, 02:56 PM	Where is the 'nar demonbinder' found?
Unicorn_Giggles 09-19-07, 07:19 AM	Nar Demonbinder is a prestige class found in Unapproachable East, and I looked up the Fiendbinder; it’s probably the most reliable choice. I think I’ll hop on that bandwagon. Thanks for the help, Khatoblepas. I’ll put a Catoblepas in my campaign in honor of you – even if it’s challenge rating is too low to pose much of a challenge for epic characters…maybe I can find an advancing template if I look hard enough.
Sagetim 09-21-07, 01:06 AM	I'm looking to create an epic NPC (and I mean overshadowing Iggwilv sort of epic) whose forté is summoning demons. I'm trying to settle on a good summoning-related prestige class and right now I've got the Demonologist (Book of Vile Darkness) and the Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East) in mind, but maybe there is another, better class that I'm overlooking? If your willing to mix truenames into it, you can go with the Fiendbinder from Tome of Magic. Since she's epic, you might as well take all three. At level 10 the fiendbinder can get mariliths for something like 60k. Permanent service. One helluva minion to have at level 17. And at epic levels, really easy to replace (since you could have access to an obscene amount of wealth). never seen nar demonbinder, so I'd suggest going with a cleric (or wizard) 7/ Fiendbinder 10/ demonlogist for the rest of the levels. Might not get epic spellcasting unless the person gets to the 30's, but that's okay...they'll have a good number of really powerful demons at their disposal. Hell, if they wanted to they could probably off one of the demon lords and take over their place (the ooze one is CR 20. )
The_Shaman 09-21-07, 06:43 AM	I suppose by now it's too late to mention the Thaumaturgist from the DMG? It's not the most powerful PrC, but it gets some okay boosts in summoning and handling outsiders, plus an outsider cohort.
Sagetim 09-21-07, 08:42 PM	I suppose by now it's too late to mention the Thaumaturgist from the DMG? It's not the most powerful PrC, but it gets some okay boosts in summoning and handling outsiders, plus an outsider cohort. yeah, but to do thaumaturge you use planar binding. And if you want a minion who's going to be around for a few years that can be more expensive than using truename summoning. As well, if you use truename summoning and binding, and the demon dies....it stays dead forever. True, you have to get a new demon, but sometimes they might find something out you don't want known...and bam, knife to the face a few times, problem solved.
Unicorn_Giggles 09-22-07, 09:29 AM	I just purchased the Tome of Magic today and I’m reconsidering the Fiendbinder. It is a very solid class, though the concept of truename magic in and of itself seems a bit convoluted and inferior to “common” magic to me. I’ll have to brush up on the info before I make up my mind, because I don’t want to botch it.
The_Shaman 09-22-07, 11:56 AM	yeah, but to do thaumaturge you use planar binding. And if you want a minion who's going to be around for a few years that can be more expensive than using truename summoning. As well, if you use truename summoning and binding, and the demon dies....it stays dead forever. True, you have to get a new demon, but sometimes they might find something out you don't want known...and bam, knife to the face a few times, problem solved. So? It's not a problem to use planar binding if the character still has to decide what class etc the character will be. BTW, I've heard something about a malconvoker PrC from CScoundrel, has anyone tried it? It's supposedly a (nonevil?) caster who gets demons to do their dirty business.
Mojo_Rat 09-22-07, 05:53 PM	The thing you need to understand about the Fiend binder is You have to use standard actions to order it. and the fiend is only going to do /exactly/ what you told it to. So if you are fighting say 4 oponents. 2 wizards and 2 fighters say. Your standard action orders the Fiend to attack one of the mages. Literally the other wizard (the one not being order to attack) can be standing in attack range of your fiend and it will be ignored. With a planar binding you have a proper contractual arangement with the fiend. You can give it instructions as a free action and it is more likely to use its own intiution to do acts within its contractual obligation. I think this is a really big dea. It isnt to say that the Fiendbinder is a bad Class its just not a 'perfect way to get a long term minion'
041391klr 09-22-07, 07:03 PM	Well, they cant be evil, but the malconvoker isnt too shabby. Its from Complete scoundrel and focuses on all evil outsiders pretty much..
Sagetim 09-23-07, 05:20 PM	The thing you need to understand about the Fiend binder is You have to use standard actions to order it. and the fiend is only going to do /exactly/ what you told it to. So if you are fighting say 4 oponents. 2 wizards and 2 fighters say. Your standard action orders the Fiend to attack one of the mages. Literally the other wizard (the one not being order to attack) can be standing in attack range of your fiend and it will be ignored. With a planar binding you have a proper contractual arangement with the fiend. You can give it instructions as a free action and it is more likely to use its own intiution to do acts within its contractual obligation. I think this is a really big dea. It isnt to say that the Fiendbinder is a bad Class its just not a 'perfect way to get a long term minion' two notes: he's the dm, he can make the minions fight as he wants. and two: you get the 'double order' ability at level 10 of fiendbinder. Thus you could order your pair of marilith's to each engage in seperate foes.
Ariath Ska'Vhor 09-23-07, 09:06 PM	I remade the BoVD demonologist if you're interested. It's in my sig.
Unicorn_Giggles 09-25-07, 11:30 AM	I remade the BoVD demonologist if you're interested. It's in my sig. From what I read, it’s getting a lot of criticism. Have you or are you planning to fix some of the mistakes in your rework?
Ariath Ska'Vhor 09-25-07, 02:32 PM	From what I read, it’s getting a lot of criticism. Have you or are you planning to fix some of the mistakes in your rework? Criticisms? Are there some I'm missing?
Treantmonklvl20 09-25-07, 08:21 PM	I assume you've checked out the Malconvoker? It focuses on SM (Evil creatures), and Planar Binding spells (Evil creatures) Lots and lots of info in my sig link
Mojo_Rat 09-25-07, 08:46 PM	two notes: he's the dm, he can make the minions fight as he wants. and two: you get the 'double order' ability at level 10 of fiendbinder. Thus you could order your pair of marilith's to each engage in seperate foes. being the Dm or not it does not in fact change the fact that the bound fiends want you To die and wont do anything other than exactly what you tell them. I simply used it as an Example of the advantage of a called free willed Demon that you have made a contract with. In the case of bound fiends they want you to die and dont want to serve you and do only the single task at a time. Admitedly 2 bound meriliths is awesome :)
Sagetim 09-26-07, 02:11 AM	being the Dm or not it does not in fact change the fact that the bound fiends want you To die and wont do anything other than exactly what you tell them. I simply used it as an Example of the advantage of a called free willed Demon that you have made a contract with. In the case of bound fiends they want you to die and dont want to serve you and do only the single task at a time. Admitedly 2 bound meriliths is awesome :) not necessarily. The fiendbinder presented as an example in the tome of magic had a baubau bound that actually liked it's master. At least as much as it could. mainly because it's master kept it entertained and well fed, listened to it's plans, etc. now, if the fiendbinder had a good alignment, then yes, the demon would certainly be an ass about orders. But if it sees the orders as a way to spread more mayhem and chaos/evil, they'd be much more amicable.
Kyuketsukiouji 09-28-07, 08:05 PM	Demonologist is hands-down the best class. Especially with a few splat feats. There's one in particular that makes any creature you summon evil (Corrupt summoning), which triples your selection of monsters for your Summoning Mastery ability (Chaotic Evil Lillend always make for a fun surprise). Add to that the fact that at Epic levels, Summoning Mastery would scale, and you'll eventually be casting Summon Monster IX spells out of level 1 slots and your ability to summon stuff is going to be very significant (At 24th level, but in the meanwhile, you can take Improved Spell Capacity to get more spells, or multispell). A high-level demonologist can literally fill a battlefield with a monstrous horde in instants with the right feats (when a lesser rod of quicken fires up a monster summon VII, you're doing good). Personally, I always thing Sorcerer/Demonologist is a very powerful combination, though you do need to spend a few feats to get into it (for that annoying Knowledge prerequisite). It allows you to work on your Charisma, and that gives you some hefty leverage when calling outsiders. Don't forget that you can take feats to augument your Charm and Dominate abilities, either. All in all, I suspect an Epic Sorcerer/Demonologist's (or Sorcerer/Something Else/Demonologist) biggest weakness will be running out of things to summon at higher levels. Eventually, no matter what tricks or feats you use, Greater Planar Binding and Summon Monster IX won't cut it. Some people have proposed extrapolating the Summon Monster lists, and a Runestaff (or a regular staff and Staff Mastery) can fill out the Gate issue. Remember that with Improved Spell Capacity, you will eventually be able to take Epic Spellcasting, if you want to commit that many feats (which, ultimately, is the second major weakness. There are -lots- of awesome feats for a demon summoner).
Aerodyth 09-30-07, 06:10 PM	now, if the fiendbinder had a good alignment, then yes, the demon would certainly be an ass about orders. But if it sees the orders as a way to spread more mayhem and chaos/evil, they'd be much more amicable. That's not a problem since the requirement in any non-good. If you use the malconvoker, summon fiends opposite or a bound fiend (if also a fiendbinder) and the bound fiend would probably get a good laugh off of it (aka: not try to get you killed as much)