Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Malvoi 04-17-07, 05:07 PM	I am working on making a pc who will take 10 levels in Dervish (Complete Warrior) and will "specialize" in two weapon feats (T.W.F. tree, T.W.D. tree, etc.). Would you consider strength or dexterity to be more important to this type of character? Sure with Dexterity I can pick up Weapon Finesse (although with my current feat selection, I'd have to drop a feat, perhaps T.W.Rend - Complete War or PHB II, can't recall atm) but with Strength it won't matter as much although my AC won't be as high... It is a bit vague I know, I'm running out the door thus the brevity but ... thoughts? :help:
FreAkOuTRG 04-17-07, 06:17 PM	Dex, I would say. Unless you want an AC of, like, 15. Plus, you have to meet the Dex requirements.
Kemev 04-17-07, 07:05 PM	It sort of depends on what ability scores you have to work with (if you can be both very strong and very quick, power to you), but probably you're going to put your highest score into dex, and that's where your extra ability score points are gonna go... Remember that to run the tree, you need dex 19 by level 11. Also, I've found two-weapon defense unsatisfying. Have you considered using a light spiked shield or shield of bashing for your off-hand? (Enhancement bonuses to your shield are cheaper than spending feats, IMO.) If I remember right, two-weapon D is a three feat tree, so you could get improved shield bash and weapon finesse and have another feat freed up.
Navigator 04-17-07, 09:34 PM	You know... you can make a very effective two-hander as a Dervish. As far as feats, just get the two-weapon fighting tree, possibly leaving out the last off-hand attack. Don't get two-weapon defense, just buy an animated shield. +1 AC is absolutely not worth an entire feat, especially when it won't even count towards your touch AC. As far as Str vs. Dex, you need both. The minimum for Str would be 14. If your Dex modifier is 2+ higher, get Weapon Finesse. Put special qualities on your weapons instead of straight +'s, like elemental damage, keen, vicious, bane, etc. Demand greater magic weapon from your arcane caster at higher levels. Another thing about weapons, you better carry a golf-bag around with you, because as soon as you run into anything with DR/you don't have it, you're totally screwed. I hope I don't have to mention this, but go with two scimitars, and get as far up the focus/specialization tree as possible. Must-get: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Specialization (Scimitar). Don't-get: Improved Critical (I could give a million reasons for this), Two-Weapon Defense tree. Don't get Greater Focus if you're not going to get Greater Specialization.
Malvoi 04-17-07, 09:54 PM	Interesting. This is the makeup I was thinking about regarding feats and yes, dual-wielding scimitars did seem the logical choice. Assume Brd 2/ Fig 8/ Der 10 although I might soon be making changes to include Swordsage in lieu of Bard and perhaps 2 lvls of Fighter. More on that later. All feats marked with an * are class requirements. [H] - Dodge* [1st] - T.W.F. [3rd] - W. F. (Scimitar) <although if I went Swordsage I would get this free with Desert Wind> [F1] - T.W.D. [F2] - C. E.* [6th] - I. T. W. F. [F4] - W.S. (Scimitar) [F6] - I.T.W.D. [9th] - M.W.M. (Slashing) [F8] - Mobility* [12th] - G.T.W.F. [15th] - T.W.R. (Complete Warrior) <hit same opponent with each wpn. once to deal extra 1d6 + 1-1/2 str bonus> [18th] - G.T.W.D. Now G.T.W.D. will give me a +6 shield bonus while fighting defensively which of course if I use C.E. for 5 will give me a +5dodge bonus for a total of +11 but the prob. is -5 for fighting defensively and - a million for my extra attacks means I won't hit very often....bells and whistles. So perhaps the animated shield, with high str and decent dex might be the trick. Further thoughts? :duel:
Malvoi 04-17-07, 09:57 PM	[QUOTE=Navigator;12131702]Put special qualities on your weapons instead of straight +'s, like elemental damage, keen, vicious, bane, etc. Demand greater magic weapon from your arcane caster at higher levels. Another thing about weapons, you better carry a golf-bag around with you, because as soon as you run into anything with DR/you don't have it, you're totally screwed.QUOTE] There is a +1 equiv enchant which lets your weapons change material properties I believe. If this is true, that would solve most concerns as I could just morph them into whatever is needed at the time. Again, speculation atm.
kalstrand 04-17-07, 09:58 PM	The Dervish loses many of its abilities if it uses a shield.
Malvoi 04-17-07, 09:59 PM	Even an animated shield?
Spikes01k 04-17-07, 10:15 PM	If you want a really good Two Handed Dervish I made this little gem :devil: True Power Dancer! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=791970) If you want some alright general Dervish info go here http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=629013
Elessar Alpha 04-17-07, 11:12 PM	I would personally go with strength in slight preference over dexterity, as I once had an opportunity to pit my players against a group of halfling dervishes in a high-level encounter. Three words: A Thousand Cuts. That ability coupled with high strength can deal amazing amounts of damage if you go the two-weapon fighting tree. Someone said not to get improved critical: Why not? If you get it for a scimitar that's a threat range of 15-20, unless I'm very much mistaken, and if you're doing upwards of ten attacks in one round using a thousand cuts, that's a lot of opportunity for crits. On the subject of AC, there's a feat, I want to say Complete Warrior? called Improved Buckler Defense that allows you to use a buckler while still wielding a weapon in your off-hand. However, that subject is nil, because the Complete Warrior states about both AC bonus and Dervish dance: "She loses this bonus when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor heavier than light, when she carries a shield..." and "She cannot perform a dervish dance in any armor heavier than light or if she is using a shield." I'm pretty sure that bucklers and even animated shields count as "using a shield." Overall, the Dervish is pretty tough, with a d10 hit die, so your hp isn't in danger assuming reasonable Con score. I'd say go for Strength.
Decado_Rill_Eldhe 04-18-07, 07:33 AM	I suggest you Dex... (and Weapon Finesse feat) to do a lot of damage, you do not need Str. (I have a Dervish with Str 14 and is ok... 16 or 18 would be better, obviously, but 14 is enough). With the feat Deadly Defense (Complete Scoundrel) all yours attacks have +1d6 to damage (if is it good at starters levels, it's VERY good at higher levels, when you have a lot of attacs and each inflicts +1d6) Moreover, if you want to do really a lot of damage, i suggest you to combine the Dervish with the class Swordsage (Tome of battle - Book of the Nine Sword) who can have some manouvres (with the Desert Wind school) that, as a rapid action, grant to yours attacks +1d6/+2d6/+3d6 + the level of the swordsage to each attack. Now imagine a dervish that, with the "A thousands cuts" attack, have more or less 14 attacks, each with +1,2 or 3d6 + level of swordsage +1d6 (deadly defense)... NB: with the swordsage, you will be very powerful at high levels, but less than a standard warrior at low lvels... :)
Spikes01k 04-18-07, 10:04 AM	I put my own vote, if it wasn't clear before, go with Dex an use weapon finesse able weapons.
RobbyPants 04-18-07, 10:30 AM	Assume Brd 2/ Fig 8/ Der 10 although I might soon be making changes to include Swordsage in lieu of Bard and perhaps 2 lvls of Fighter. More on that later. All feats marked with an * are class requirements. Out of curiosity, why bard? I don't have the ToB, but from what I hear (and from what I've seen in excerpts) Swordsage would not be a bad choice. Also, taking 1 - 3 levels in Swashbuckler could be useful for a dex-based dervish. You'll get Weapon Finesse for free, and some other abilities, but don't take it past 3rd level. Have you considered taking this build to the character optimization boards (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=339)? These guys know their stuff :D
The_Shaman 04-18-07, 11:04 AM	I'm thinking ranks in perform, Snowflake wardance, and maybe something else... Instead of TWD, I think buckler specialization might be quite useful. A good magical buckler has no armor check penalty, is not terribly expensive, and can still provide a useful bonus to defense. The PHBII version of the swashbuckler can work okay-ish if you take it to lvl 5 instead of 3, possibly filling in with fighter or rogue levels. +2 to AC is +2 to ac, after all, and dervishes often rely on finessable weapons (so the int will not be too bad). Rogue levels eventually allow for telling blow and that, together with the rogue/swashie synergy feat, can be quite useful if you're using scimitars or kukri. The swordsage is good for weapon focus, bonus to your AC, and some great boosts or stances. One of my favourites is "Blood in the Water". With weapons with high critical threat ranges (scimitars, kukri, tiger claws), that can lead to you really going postal in longer fights. There are other tricky combos, like ranger/scout with swift hunter, etc. Overall, I would probably have higher dex than strength, but I would value both. Eventually, a high strength allows for some crazy stuff, especially at epic levels. Oh, and by the way, it might be worth asking the DM how he would interpret the Flay feat from Champions of Ruin (1d6 extra damage on subsequent attacks with slashing weapons)
Karla 04-18-07, 11:21 AM	A Greatsword does 2d6 plus 1.5 * STR. And you can then power attack and cleave with it. (Or use a falchion if critical-ing is your thing.) 2 Scimitars also do 2d6 plus 1.5 * STR. But take an extra feat, only on a full attack and with -2 to hit! And since you can't power attack, you probably won't have cleave either, not that you can afford to with all the two-weapon feats you need. Plus you pay twice as much for weapon enchantments. A Dervish needs good dex to go with light armour, but not necessarily maxed out IMO. At the end of the day between STR and DEX you're trading off AC bonus directly against attack bonus and who's to say when an extra +1 to hit/damage might make just as much difference in saving your life as that +1 to AC! (Meanwhile on the subject of shields, I'd note Bracers (say) of Shield (spell) would give +4 to shield AC for 4000 gp. Very good value, comparable to a +2 large shield but leaving both hands free and not needing shield prof.)
Empiro 04-18-07, 01:51 PM	(Meanwhile on the subject of shields, I'd note Bracers (say) of Shield (spell) would give +4 to shield AC for 4000 gp. Very good value, comparable to a +2 large shield but leaving both hands free and not needing shield prof.) It's unlikely that a DM would allow such an item for so little. I certainly would not. It's one of those cases, like the ring of true strike, where you have to judge an item based on how good it is, not its spell level.
alien_valentine 04-18-07, 02:49 PM	DEX all the way. With all the Weapon Spec feats your taking, your damage with the scimitar, should you choose to go that route, which you should, would suffer too much from having a mediocre strength. Secondly, since the dervish treats the scimitar as a light weapon, you can apply the Weapon Finesse feat to that weapon. Also, as it's already been pointed out by Kemev, you do need a DEX of 19 by lvl 11 to take all those two weapon fighting feats. Finally, if you can figure out a way to sneak it in there Improved Criticaly (Scimitar) would prove incredibly devistating. Imagine wielding a pair of keen scimitars with this feat. Your threat range drops to 12-20, and all of your worries about not dealing damage b/c of a low STR fly out the window.
kalstrand 04-18-07, 03:16 PM	Even an animated shield? Yes an animated shield still counts as if using a shield so you will lose your Dervish AC bonus as well as the ability to Dervish Dance if you use an animated shield. With a Dervish you don't need to worry about the fact you need a full attack to TWF because with the Dervish Dance you can full attack and still move your speed at the same time.
FreAkOuTRG 04-18-07, 03:57 PM	A Greatsword does 2d6 plus 1.5 * STR. And you can then power attack and cleave with it. (Or use a falchion if critical-ing is your thing.) 2 Scimitars also do 2d6 plus 1.5 * STR. But take an extra feat, only on a full attack and with -2 to hit! And since you can't power attack, you probably won't have cleave either, not that you can afford to with all the two-weapon feats you need. Plus you pay twice as much for weapon enchantments. If I remember correctly, don't you automatically get cleave? A Dervish needs good dex to go with light armour, but not necessarily maxed out IMO. At the end of the day between STR and DEX you're trading off AC bonus directly against attack bonus and who's to say when an extra +1 to hit/damage might make just as much difference in saving your life as that +1 to AC! In some instances, I might agree with this. Not with the dervish. You really need to boost your Dex or your AC might end up less than 20. Not good for a melee character.
The_Shaman 04-18-07, 04:57 PM	Alien, I'm afraid Improved Critical and Keen don't stack in 3.5 . However, enhancements are a way to put a scimitar dervish ahead of falchion/greatsword one: namely, going for enhancements that give extra damage dice, i.e. flaming. Also, a dual-wielding dervish is basically guaranteed entry in the tempest PrC, should he as much as want it. Strength can also be very good in it's way, but I would have it a bit lower, unless you're tripping etc.
Malvoi 04-18-07, 05:47 PM	Thanks for the replies. I took your advice Robby and posted in that forum. I think I'm starting to lean towards a higher Dex as it means better Reflex, higher AC and with Weapon Finesse "problem solved". Also if I am sitting in a Shadow Hand stance I can use the Shadow Blade feat to add dex to damage. The problem with this is that it will eat up a lot of feats. Again I did post in the "optimization" forum, will see what happens and still look forward to anything else you might want to add. Thanks again.:tiphat:
Karla 04-19-07, 09:39 AM	If I remember correctly, don't you automatically get cleave? Only after 4 levels and only whilst dervish dancing (which you may not be able to or want to do in every encounter per day). Not to mention maybe 4 more levels without cleave before you even get to dervish. In some instances, I might agree with this. Not with the dervish. You really need to boost your Dex or your AC might end up less than 20. Not good for a melee character. My 7th level Dervish. Dex 16, +1 chain shirt, +2 natural armour, +1 deflection and +1 from PrC and 16 DEX gives AC 22. 23 with dodge. Which has sufficed, at least so far! Like I said, high dex is good, but not necessarily maxed. In my case, I had a 16 and a 17, and put the 17 on STR, now incremented and augmented to 20 because +2 to hit and +3 damage felt more useful than another +2 AC. But this is definitely a YMMV. :)
Despot_Arrow 04-20-07, 05:11 PM	Put everything into Dex and Weapon Finnese. Then get Weapons with Wounding. With all those attacks you will kill almost anything but creatures with out CON.
Razorgrin 04-21-07, 02:01 PM	Put everything into Dex and Weapon Finnese. Then get Weapons with Wounding. With all those attacks you will kill almost anything but creatures with out CON. That's a good one; I'm also fond of the implacable enchantment from Magic Item Compendium, which adds a two-point, five-round DoT effect every time you land a hit. If you got into dervish from scout and you have a strong skirmish ability, you're a nightmare on the battlefield. You don't even have to worry about dropping creatures in one shot; just dance around the battlefield, chipping away at everything.
The_Shaman 04-21-07, 05:31 PM	Shining South had weapons that drained strength per hit or bestowed a negative level on criticals. Both might also be interesting - strength drain is especially good if you want to take someone alive or slow them down before you escape.
Marcus Majarra 04-21-07, 05:57 PM	I'm going to disagree with the general tendency and recommend favoring Strength over Dexterity (and Weapon Finesse) for just about any Dervish. High Dexterity might be incentive to delve down the TWF feat tree, but the end result leaves much to be desired. Among the notable flaws are: 1) You no longer have a single ability score that governs your offensive ability. In order to hit often and hit hard, you need two ability scores. Normally, you can do well with only one: Strength. 2) In addition, you're reducing your general accuracy by delving into TWF. At this point, you're both relying on two ability scores, and you're placing even more importance on your accuracy ability over your damage ability. There are ways to go around the need for a good Dex with a dervish. For starters, you've got ranger levels. They can provide the first two TWF feats without having the Dex requirements, they fuel your Tumble skill (which you will be using in crowded battlefields), and if you have enough of them to take after gaining your first dervish level, you'll have more than enough skill points to bring your Perform (dance) ranks to character level + 3. If you're playing with the PHB2 variant class features, you might even want to trade in your animal companion to have your party treat every enemy you hit during your dance be considered flanked for their attacks during that turn. With a meager wisdom score, you can even manage a few handy spell slots for melee (such as Blades of Fire). Looking at the build suggested above, I see 8 fighter levels. The only thing those levels grant over 4 fighter levels are only two feats (and eligibility to the oh-so-awesome greater weapon focus feat). A more solid build for dervishes would be Ranger 6 / Fighter 4 / Dervish 10. Ranger levels will actually provide two of the feats you have to take anyway (TWF and ITWF), as well as two useful feats (one of which allows you to take Steadfast Determination). If you're worried about AC, you shouldn't. For starters, dervishes have their dance, which allows them to perform full attacks while moving. Opponents will generally not be able to perform full attacks on the dervish if he's more than 5 feet away at the start of their turns. If things get worse, the dervish can fight defensively more effectively (trading a -4 to hit for a +7 dodge bonus to AC). Heck, Acrobatic Strike, from the PHB2, can help mitigate this problem. Of course, since you're going to use some TWF, you need to choose your weapons. While most do the dual scimitar shtick, I prefer the greatsword + armor spikes (or even armor razors, if they're allowed) shtick for more damage. In any case, always consider having one or two slashing weapons around for when you dance, since you'll gain bonuses to hit and damage with these weapons.
The_Shaman 04-21-07, 06:06 PM	Well, strength has its good points, but TWFing should not be such a problem, especially for players who enter the class more quickly. A TWF dervish meets practically every prerequisite for the Tempest PrC, which can further improve the attack and defense of the character.
darkeness 04-21-07, 07:38 PM	Put special qualities on your weapons instead of straight +'s, like elemental damage, keen, vicious, bane, etc. Demand greater magic weapon from your arcane caster at higher levels. Another thing about weapons, you better carry a golf-bag around with you, because as soon as you run into anything with DR/you don't have it, you're totally screwed. There is a +1 equiv enchant which lets your weapons change material properties I believe. If this is true, that would solve most concerns as I could just morph them into whatever is needed at the time. Again, speculation atm. It is called metaline and is a +2 bonus, but well worth the cost IMHO.
Malvoi 04-25-07, 03:55 PM	Thanks again for the useful insight. :tiphat:
RobbyPants 04-26-07, 02:32 PM	Looking at the build suggested above, I see 8 fighter levels. The only thing those levels grant over 4 fighter levels are only two feats (and eligibility to the oh-so-awesome greater weapon focus feat). A more solid build for dervishes would be Ranger 6 / Fighter 4 / Dervish 10. Ranger levels will actually provide two of the feats you have to take anyway (TWF and ITWF), as well as two useful feats (one of which allows you to take Steadfast Determination). Another nice thing is that once you have fighter 4, you can take Weapon Specialization. Once you have that, and a BAB of 8+, you can take Melee Weapon Mastery. The nice thing about that feat is that you don't need to have 8 actual fighter levels.
Malvoi 04-26-07, 02:43 PM	Another nice thing is that once you have fighter 4, you can take Weapon Specialization. Once you have that, and a BAB of 8+, you can take Melee Weapon Mastery. The nice thing about that feat is that you don't need to have 8 actual fighter levels. You know now that you point that out, I did fail to see or recognize that point when I first looked at the feat. My brain just assumed it req'd Fighter levels since all the other ones in the W.F, etc. chain did. Thanks.