Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gabrion 09-27-07, 02:46 AM	Devoted Enforcer http://wizards.com/dnd/images/moi_gallery/91026.jpg Su, su, su, sir…I swear I’ll turn myself over to the authorities and confess my crimes. I will bear their full punishment! – Torric, petty criminal No thief, the laws you break are written in divine creed – you will not face a magistrate or judge this day, but instead the justice of the heavens! - Cor’thes, Devoted Enforcer Some masters of the sublime way seek to further their martial prowess, while others practice dedication to a cause or deity. Devoted Enforcers walk both paths – constantly honing their martial skills, while serving as the physical representation of lawful gods in the world. Without exceptions these individuals are highly religious, and without exception they serve gods whose dogma emphasize the importance of law and order in the world. Advancing down the path of the Devoted Enforcer allows a martial adept to continue their training, while also granting special divine powers used to fight their enemies. Becoming a Devoted Enforcer Most Devoted Enforcers begin training as Crusaders because of the entry requirements, but other classes with martial training who are willing to learn the necessary ideals of the devoted spirit are not uncommon. Paladins who have some martial adept training are drawn to the class because of its emphasis on law. Fighters and Warblades often lack the religious zeal to become a Devoted Enforcer, but those who chose the path excel because of their martial prowess. Monks and Swordsages are not usually drawn to the religious aspect of the Devoted Enforcer. Bards and Barbarians cannot become Devoted Enforcers because of the alignment restrictions, and Rogues likewise are unlikely to embrace law to such an extent. Spellcaster who become Devoted Enforcers are even rarer, as few have the spiritual dedication to follow the path, and even fewer are willing to give up their study of spellcasting. Hit Die: d10 Entry Requirements: Base Attack Bonus: +7 Skills: Intimidate 10 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 5 ranks Feats: Devoted Bulward (ToB), Power Attack Martial Maneuvers: Must know at least one Devoted Spirit maneuver Martial Stances: Must know at least one martial stance Alignment: Must be lawful Special: Must serve a lawful deity Fort Ref Will Maneuvers Maneuvers Stances Level BAB Save Save Save Known Readied Known Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 1 0 0 Devoted Fury (+1) 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 1 1 0 Hand of God 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 1 0 1 Devoted Fury (+2) 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 1 1 0 Providence 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 1 0 0 Wrath of God, Devoted Fury (+3) Class Skills (2+Int modifier per level): Balance, Concentration, Intimidate, Knowledge (Religion), Martial Lore, Ride Class Features Maneuvers: At each Devoted Enforcer level you gain a new maneuver known from the Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, or Iron Heart Disciplines. You must meet a maneuver’s prerequisites to learn it. You add your full Devoted Enforcer level to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known. At second and fourth level, you gain an additional maneuver readied. Stances known: At third level, you learn one stance from the Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, or Iron Hearth disciplines. You must meet the stance’s prerequisites to learn it. Devoted Fury (Ex): The hand of your deity guides your attacks as long as you continue to show your devotion. At first level, you gain a +1 insight bonus to attack and damage rolls whenever executing a maneuver from the devoted spirit discipline, or while using a stance from the devoted spirit discipline. This bonus increases to +2 at third level, and +3 at fifth level. Hand of God (Ex): Your deity imparts a small amount of healing on you as you fight. At second level you gain the Vital Recovery feat (Tome of Battle 33). Providence (Ex): At fourth level you can call on this power once per day to receive a flash of insight from your deity. This ability acts in all ways as the fourth level cleric spell Divination, with a caster level equal to twice your Devoted Enforcer level. Wrath of God (Ex): Having advanced to the highest ranks of Devoted Enforcers, your deity has allowed you to learn the much feared Wrath of God stance. While you are in a stance from any discipline you know, you can forgo its normal benefits as a swift action to gain the Wrath of God stance. You can use this ability three times per day, each use lasting for one minute. While in the Wrath of God stance your eyes light up with holy fire as your body hardens and gains celestial strength. You gain damage reduction 5/adamantine and a +4 sacred (or profane) bonus to strength and constitution. As a full round action you can release a holy nova, which does 1d6 holy damage/remaining rounds of your current use of Wrath of God to all enemies within 15'. Releasing a holy nova ends the Wrath of God stance and consuming that use of the ability. Wrath of God counts as a Devoted Spirit stance. Update #1: Changed prereq feats from Iron Will and True Believer to Power Attack and Devoted Bulward. Granted new maneuver known at each level rather than just 1, 3, and 5. Changed Wrath of God to operate 3x/day rather than 10 rounds/day and reduced DR from 10/Addy to 5/Addy.
gabrion 09-27-07, 05:17 PM	*bump Anyone have an opinion on this one?
CaptainShar 09-27-07, 06:56 PM	How much healing occurs in the Hand of God feature? Does this happen every round? I don't see this mechanic explained. Is it from Tome of Battle?
gabrion 09-27-07, 07:20 PM	How much healing occurs in the Hand of God feature? Does this happen every round? I don't see this mechanic explained. Is it from Tome of Battle? Sorry, yes it is in the Tome of Battle. The Hand of God gives Vital Recovery as a bonus feat. The benefit of Vital Recovery is as follows: When you recover one or more expended maneuvers, you heal 3 points of damage + 1 point per character level. You can gain this benefit only once per encounter. So for instance, the crusader recovers maneuvers every three rounds or so in combat, so after three rounds of a fight (usually) they would be expected to heal 18 HP at 15th level, and they could only gain that benefit once during the battle. BTW, thx for taking a look and feel free to ask more questions/make suggestions!
DoctorWeasel 09-28-07, 04:33 AM	The class has some problems: -It isn't the strongest class and it requires two weak feats for entrance. Just going for some directly Devoted Spirit-related feats would be both fitting and fairly effective. -Too high of an enterance level. This is a rather weak prestige class; it needs to have enterance available at 6th so a character that takes it can go epic without the level-weaseling. (5 Crusader, 2 Other PrC, 5 Devoted Enforcer, 8 Other PrC) -Devoted Fury and Vital Recovery are both rather weak abilities. One gives 9 extra damage by level 12, the other recovers a couple of hit points. Neither will impact the game at all. -Providence needs clarification. There are hundreds of Divination spells. -Wrath of God would be fairly balanced at Character Level 10 (giving up your Stance ability for a few rounds to get some pretty good damage reduction and a few extra damage/temporary hit points), it doesn't need to make a character wait until level 12. Suggestions: -This needs a distinct flavor. Right now it's a Crusader with very slightly altered abilities. -This class needs something more defining than 10 rounds of a good stance. A scaling ability more definite than "One extra damage" would make the class far more interesting. -At the moment, the class has three abilities- One underpowered, one a feat (available to anyone) and one pretty balanced (actually, maybe kick the damage on the capstone up to double with a saving throw for half; 35 damage is meaningless to a CR 12+ Baddy) I guess the problem is that both Flavor-wise and mechanics-wise, it's a Crusader, a Crusader with a very slightly increased maneuver progression (albiet without the ability to swap out low-levelled maneuvers- something that could actually hurt Crusaders taking the class) and without access to high-level maneuvers beside Devoted Spirit (you won't meet Diamond Mind or Iron Heart prerequisites so most players will just skip them). You mentioned in your critique of my PrC that it can be better to err on the safer side, but in this case it doesn't work out quite so well. The question you need to ask is what exactly you're trying to do with this. You need to have a focus to build on and to build toward; right now a base class covers your niche.
gabrion 09-28-07, 05:50 PM	First off, thx for the response! The class has some problems: -It isn't the strongest class and it requires two weak feats for entrance. Just going for some directly Devoted Spirit-related feats would be both fitting and fairly effective. Hehe that's funny cause I was afraid it was going to be too powerful. Good to see I didn't go overboard. :) As for the feats, they were obviously meant to be "wasted" (although they still obviously offer a small benefit) as a cost to get into the PrC. I'll probably leave one of them and change one to something more useful. Too high of an enterance level. This is a rather weak prestige class; it needs to have enterance available at 6th so a character that takes it can go epic without the level-weaseling. (5 Crusader, 2 Other PrC, 5 Devoted Enforcer, 8 Other PrC) I wondered about this myself. Originally I wrote it for level six entry and then changed it, being afraid it was a bit too powerful. I'll likely knock it back to require +5 BAB and +8 skills unless I get a critique calling it OP. In all honesty though, I don't think it would matter. It makes a lot more sense for a Crusader to hold off on taking this PrC when you look at what levels it grants disciplines/stances. -Devoted Fury and Vital Recovery are both rather weak abilities. One gives 9 extra damage by level 12, the other recovers a couple of hit points. Neither will impact the game at all. I'll grant you that Vital Recovery is no big deal (but it really wasn't supposed to be anything more than a thematically appropriate bonus feat). I don't think Devoted Fury is as weak as you think though. The thing to keep in mind is that many Devoted Enforcers will be in a Devoted Spirit Stance 90% of the time. This means they will always have +3 attack and +3 damage. If they have power attack this translates to +9 damage/attack. In games I've played in, that's actually a significant ability, especially at higher levels when you have more attacks. I'm more worried about it being dull than underpowered honestly. Giving +1/+1 at 1st, 3rd, and 5th seems fine power wise to me, but it's pretty generic. It will probably stay unless I have a stroke of inventive genius. -Providence needs clarification. There are hundreds of Divination spells. Oops, used the wrong article. I'll fix it to say "the divination spell" rather than "a divination spell" and all should be well. -Wrath of God would be fairly balanced at Character Level 10 (giving up your Stance ability for a few rounds to get some pretty good damage reduction and a few extra damage/temporary hit points), it doesn't need to make a character wait until level 12. Like I said above, I'll probably change this so it's possible to enter at 6th (getting wrath of god at 10th), but I see most Crusaders waiting till 8th level or so to enter. Suggestions: -This needs a distinct flavor. Right now it's a Crusader with very slightly altered abilities. I'll try to work on this. In the draft I posted the idea was supposed to be that while Crusaders can be the servants of any deity (and thus serve any ideals), the DE is the servant of lawful deities. Because of this he is a bringer of retribution to those who transgress the laws. As such, I thought it was appropriate to give him some limited divine powers (Devoted Fury is basically a constant Divine Favor, Divination is a flavor based connection to his god, and Vital Recovery is free healing from his god). I also tried to focus on the retributive aspect of his martial training by allowing him access to Iron Heart and Diamond Mind rather than Stone Dragon and White Raven. -This class needs something more defining than 10 rounds of a good stance. A scaling ability more definite than "One extra damage" would make the class far more interesting. I don't know...Wrath of God doesn't seem over the top to me, but I don't think it's weak at all. I thought about making it a 3x/day (one minute each) ability, but honestly this would pretty much be giving the PrC 10/Addy all the time (following the three encounters/day rule and assuming they don't last much longer than 10 rounds). As for the attack/damage bonus, I'll think about that and see if I can come up with a better scaling ability. -At the moment, the class has three abilities- One underpowered, one a feat (available to anyone) and one pretty balanced (actually, maybe kick the damage on the capstone up to double with a saving throw for half; 35 damage is meaningless to a CR 12+ Baddy) Actually right now I see it as having a feat and spell that are just flavor (but can help a bit), and two powers (one scaling one not) that are pretty balanced. The important thing in my mind though is to look at these abilities in the context of how the Martial aspect of things progress. The Character gets a new maneuver known at 1st, 3rd, and 5th. Right on course for a Crusader. They get one stance along the way, which is nice just because it means you can take the PrC at the right time to get Aura of _____ at 11th level rather than waiting till 14th. The real kicker though is maneuvers readied. Since maneuvers readied adds to maneuvers granted for crusaders. Normally they only get such an increase at 10th level and 20th level, so I see this as a real boon. On top of this, they have access to three of the best Disciplines. Iron Heart is normally reserved for Warblades, and while it fits thematically here IMO, there's no denying that it adds power to the class (Grabbing a few maneuvers from there opens up options like taking adamantine hurricane via martial study later on, which combined with Aura of Perfect Order, just for instance, would be wicked in certain scenerios). I guess the problem is that both Flavor-wise and mechanics-wise, it's a Crusader, a Crusader with a very slightly increased maneuver progression (albiet without the ability to swap out low-levelled maneuvers- something that could actually hurt Crusaders taking the class) and without access to high-level maneuvers beside Devoted Spirit (you won't meet Diamond Mind or Iron Heart prerequisites so most players will just skip them). You mentioned in your critique of my PrC that it can be better to err on the safer side, but in this case it doesn't work out quite so well. You think it's underpowered from the perspective of special abilities, but when I was constructing the class I looked at it the opposite way. I started with martial advancement and when I realized that that aspect was balanced or slightly better than staying with a base class, I thought that it would be inappropriate to add too many powerful special abilities. The question you need to ask is what exactly you're trying to do with this. You need to have a focus to build on and to build toward; right now a base class covers your niche. I don't think Crusader covers the niche right now actually. The idea is being a particular kind of Crusader, who is almost a Crusader/Warblade hybrid. Of course multi-classing is an option to achieve that, but would be far worse than creating a balanced PrC to do the job. I do appreciate all your comments though and I will take them into account as I go back over the PrC.
DoctorWeasel 09-28-07, 06:34 PM	On top of this, they have access to three of the best Disciplines. Iron Heart is normally reserved for Warblades, and while it fits thematically here IMO, there's no denying that it adds power to the class (Grabbing a few maneuvers from there opens up options like taking adamantine hurricane via martial study later on, which combined with Aura of Perfect Order, just for instance, would be wicked in certain scenerios). The problem is that even though you give two new Disciplines (and yes, they are both quite good) you don't grant advancement of two-thirds of the Crusaders' maneuver-lists. This is similar to blocking two-thirds of a mid-leveled sorcerer's spell list, but granting ability to learn low-level cleric spells. The option isn't neccessarily bad- especially if you multiclass Warblade ahead of time- but it doesn't merit the two feats spent on entry. Basically those two feats are your problem. If they weren't obviously squandered, the class would be pretty neat. Also, something that might improve the class would be changing each "+1 to hit/Damage" to a "+2 hit/Damage against opponents who've targeted allies with hostile effects in the last one round." It would keep the retributive concept and would give a nifty bonus for Crusader-types.
gabrion 09-28-07, 07:13 PM	The problem is that even though you give two new Disciplines (and yes, they are both quite good) you don't grant advancement of two-thirds of the Crusaders' maneuver-lists. This is similar to blocking two-thirds of a mid-leveled sorcerer's spell list, but granting ability to learn low-level cleric spells. The option isn't neccessarily bad- especially if you multiclass Warblade ahead of time- but it doesn't merit the two feats spent on entry. Ya this is very true. I wrote up a sample maneuver progression for a Crusader 10/Devoted Enforcer 5 and while he's able to pick up cool stuff like Iron Heart Surge, he either has to rely on items to fill the prerequisites for learning higher level maneuvers or the martial training feat. When advancing I found myself thinking that it wasn't really worthwhile to advance both DM and IH maneuvers because I only got three total from this PrC and I wanted to get access to higher levels ones. One option at this point is to do a rewrite making it a full 10 level PrC so that the maneuver selection would play a larger role. We'll see. Basically those two feats are your problem. If they weren't obviously squandered, the class would be pretty neat. I'm agreeing more and more. Do you think it would make sense to use Devoted Bulwark (representing the divine connection, and still kinda a spent feat for entry requirement) and Power Attack (representing furious melee ability, and obviously much more useful than either of the original feats)? Any specific suggestions are welcome. :) Also, something that might improve the class would be changing each "+1 to hit/Damage" to a "+2 hit/Damage against opponents who've targeted allies with hostile effects in the last one round." It would keep the retributive concept and would give a nifty bonus for Crusader-types. I was actually just reworking it and doing something conditional seemed like a great way to both increase flavor (make it more clear what these guys are all about) and maybe even give a small boost. Your idea works well, but I was also thinking that forcing them to choose a target (or targets) like the dodge feat could work well and could fit into the scaling effect. How bout the following concept: Devoted Fury (Ex): The hand of your deity guides your attacks as long as you continue to show your devotion. Each round you designate a foe (or foes) who have earned retribution and gain a bonus to attacks and damage against them. At first level this ability grants a +1 insight bonus to attack and damage rolls against any one enemy. At each level the bonus to attack and damage increases by 1. At second level and higher you can choose to split this bonus between multiple enemies. For instance, a 5th level Devoted Enforcer could gain up to +5 attack and damage against any one foe, +2 attack and damage against one foe and +3 attack and damage against another, or even +1 attack and damage against five different enemies. Designating enemies for this ability is a free action and must be done at the beginning of the Devoted Enforcer's turn. Thoughts? Personally I think this is a bit more powerful that the original because most players will simply designate one foe, but it is also a bit more versatile. Another variation would be to use your idea (+2 at level one) and scale it to +4 at 3rd, and +6 at 5th, but only allow it to be split amongst three enemies. Let me know what you think (and thx again for all the feedback).
gabrion 09-28-07, 07:37 PM	Another random thought...what if I left most things as the original, but gave another maneuver known at 2nd and 4th levels. Looking at MotN it would still be way behind that in progression, but it would obviously be a bit more powerful than the original. This could potentially solve two problems: 1) This extra power could make up for the fact that the original abilities aren't all that great and the cost to enter is pretty high (this last part will probably change regardless though in terms of feats). 2) This would make access to Iron Heart and Diamond Mind Maneuvers much more significant, since the character would actually be able to learn mid or high level maneuvers from these disciplines. As it is, granting one maneuver every other level is deceiving because it actually represents a small power increase if the character chooses IH or DM maneuvers (since they will have to take low level ones for which the meet the requirements.
DoctorWeasel 09-29-07, 12:24 AM	I'm agreeing more and more. Do you think it would make sense to use Devoted Bulwark (representing the divine connection, and still kinda a spent feat for entry requirement) and Power Attack (representing furious melee ability, and obviously much more useful than either of the original feats)? Any specific suggestions are welcome. Yeah both of those would work well. Devoted Bulwark is something of a wasted feat, but it satisfies a Faith Unswerving Prerequisite (a good thing) and Power Attack never hurt anyone. Devoted Fury (Ex): The hand of your deity guides your attacks as long as you continue to show your devotion. Each round you designate a foe (or foes) who have earned retribution and gain a bonus to attacks and damage against them. At first level this ability grants a +1 insight bonus to attack and damage rolls against any one enemy. At each level the bonus to attack and damage increases by 1. At second level and higher you can choose to split this bonus between multiple enemies. For instance, a 5th level Devoted Enforcer could gain up to +5 attack and damage against any one foe, +2 attack and damage against one foe and +3 attack and damage against another, or even +1 attack and damage against five different enemies. Designating enemies for this ability is a free action and must be done at the beginning of the Devoted Enforcer's turn. This seems awkward to track, but it will probably only be applied to one opponent. This could become quite powerful on a full attack; essentially 3 free damage per hit per class level. Maybe limit this to only work with Devoted Spirit/Iron Heart strikes. Another random thought...what if I left most things as the original, but gave another maneuver known at 2nd and 4th levels. Looking at MotN it would still be way behind that in progression, but it would obviously be a bit more powerful than the original. Master of the Nine also has some pretty wicked prerequisites. Its maneuvers known are only there to make up all the slots used for low-level maneuvers just for qualification. This would be a significant power boost; I would leave the maneuvers alone. [EDIT:] Actually, If you did put them into the class but presented them as free Martial Study feats that had to be chosen from the Iron Heart list, it could bring you to more of a Warblade/Crusader like you mentioned earlier and it would weasel its way around the low-level maneuver problem I was pointing at a while ago. If you take this approach, throw in a Zealous Surge prerequisite to limit Warblades abusing it.
gabrion 09-29-07, 12:50 AM	This seems awkward to track, but it will probably only be applied to one opponent. This could become quite powerful on a full attack; essentially 3 free damage per hit per class level. Maybe limit this to only work with Devoted Spirit/Iron Heart strikes. Ya it is unwieldy. At the moment I left it as it was before because if nothing else it's still clear and easy to use, but I'm still thinking of good conditional based alternatives. Master of the Nine also has some pretty wicked prerequisites. Its maneuvers known are only there to make up all the slots used for low-level maneuvers just for qualification. This would be a significant power boost; I would leave the maneuvers alone. Well ya, but even with a maneuver at 2nd and 4th MotN still gives three more maneuvers known, three more maneuvers readied (huge!), one more stance, and bad@ss class abilities (especially the dual stance one). What I've realized since first entertaining this idea is that it isn't adding as much power as I thought because I was failing to take into account the Crusader's maneuver swaping. Basically a crusader gets a new maneuver of their highest level known every level, not every other level. Thus saying that the maneuvers know progression for this class was on par with the Crusader originally was very deceiving. Combine this with the fact that they are doubtless going to be spending some of the maneuvers known on low level DM and IH ones in order to meet prereqs, and I really think a new maneuver known doesn't give them too much power. If anything it makes it easy for me because I can leave most of the class abilities alone, since a slight increase in power is just what we needed. If the class abilities themselves aren't terribly impressive, they becomes a secondary issue if the focus of the class is the new maneuvers known. Actually I've edited the class above to make just such a change. [EDIT:] Actually, If you did put them into the class but presented them as free Martial Study feats that had to be chosen from the Iron Heart list, it could bring you to more of a Warblade/Crusader like you mentioned earlier and it would weasel its way around the low-level maneuver problem I was pointing at a while ago. If you take this approach, throw in a Zealous Surge prerequisite to limit Warblades abusing it. That would work too and might help with the flavor as you point out. I'll think about the ramifications of going this route rather than just giving a maneuver known at 2nd and 4th levels. Intuitively it seems like giving free Martial Study feats to a class that already has a progression for maneuvers adds unneeded clutter, but I'll think it over.