Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OM_The_Tortoise 04-30-07, 01:07 PM	I'm thinking of a PrC that is the equivalent of the Miniature's Handbook's War Hulk (and yes, I know that Miniature's Handbook is broken, I'm just toying with something here), which will work well for small, agile characters. The main idea is that the character has to be small or smaller with high Dex bonus, and instead of gaining BAB, it would gain +2 Dex every level, and at first level would gain the ability to add Dex modifier to damage instead of Str. Add some more abilities I haven't thought of yet, and I think this can make a pretty neat PrC for Halfling rogues, etc. What do you think? Would you like to see something like that? Is it too strong? What kind of abilities would you add? Any feedback would be appreciated.
StevenO 04-30-07, 03:33 PM	A class that adds DEX like the War Hulk adds strength and the first thing you do is let it add DEX to damage, that is WAY too broken. A War Hulk has no problem adding STR as it is a fighting class that doesn't add any BAB. Sure damage keeps going up but that isn't really so broken when you don't gain multiple attacks and your ranged attacks still suck. The only reason that the STR increase is broken is because of how it increases your carrying capacity and the Hulking Hurler PrC which lets you deal damage based on how big an item you can throw. A class that adds +2 DEX each level is much more broken than one adding STR. That DEX increase will increase your AC, Reflex Save, and initiative each level along with a much larger number of skills (STR is used by two occasionally useful skill while DEX controls a far larger number of often used skills) in addition to increasing the Ranged Attack modifier and with one feat melee attacks as well. Having DEX work for damage on top of all of that would be absolutely INSANE! Given all the "normal" uses for DEX any class that starts adding new uses for it while also increasing it every level is likely to be too strong. If you do what to do a PrC that grants +2 DEX each level I'd recommend using at least some of the following. HD d6, Skills 4 or 6, BAB-NONE and Saves all poor (attack and reflex go up with high DEX) Abilities to consider: +5' movement rate given several times (this is going to be a quick character) Evasion/Improved Evasion - likely to be part of prereqs but still Uncanny Dodge - I'd hate to see you lose all that DEX bonus Realistically with that big a DEX increase most abilities should be movement/quickness related.
OM_The_Tortoise 04-30-07, 03:59 PM	Yes, the idea is for a quick character. You're probably right about it being too strong, so maybe some limitations, such as the character won't be able to use weapons heavier than light (except for rapier) and maybe will only add half Dex bonus to damage. Definitely no armor, maybe even no magic items that give armor or shield bonus? I still need to have a real theme for the class, other than the "dexterity goes up" thing. Once I find what I want the class to be in terms of role playing, it will give me ideas as to what abilities and limitations it should have.
StevenO 04-30-07, 06:15 PM	My edit was dropping BAB from poor to none. I wasn't thinking quite enough when I first posted and given that a DEX increase should increase your net attack each turn there is little reason for increasing BAB except to meet prereqs. The only way I could ever really see adding DEX to damage is when it is at least as conditional as Sneak Attack or other precision damage. I believe there is one feat (Crossbow Sniper) that adds some DEX to damage but that is it and for good reason, Dexterity is universally the single most important stat. Some characters may get by without much but ANY character can take advantage of a very high DEX. Unless you came up with a VERY good reason there would be nothing limiting the use of weapons and armor/shields so you can't really balance based on those restrictions. Most likely any melee weapon a character with this class would wield is Finessable so weapon "restrictions" are only cosmetic; after a point the MAX DEX restriction on Armor also becomes a factor which makes wearing physical armor unlikely. Even if you come up with an acceptable concept I think granting a net +20 DEX over ten levels is just crazy. Without looking at HD/hp, skill points spent, and assuming no BAB increase and Poor saves look at what you get after ten levels: Fort +3, Reflex +13, Will +3, Ranged Attack +10, Finessed melee attack +10, Initiative +10, AC +10, and +10 on skills including hide, move silently, balance, tumble, and escape artist. All this excludes any special abilities. Look at what the same would get you with +20 STR instead of DEX: All Saves +3, Melee Attack +10, Melee Damage +10/+15 but no addition BAB to put into Power Attack, +10 on Climb and Swim skills, improved carry capacity. I see some big differences in these two lists.
The_Shaman 04-30-07, 06:59 PM	The Races of the Wild book is imo worth a look. I don't know what the war hulk is, but the Champion of Corellon definitely benefits from having high dexterity. Of course, low strength and high dexterity might mean no Power attack, which is a significant disadvantage imo.
OM_The_Tortoise 05-01-07, 03:03 AM	StevenO: Yes, the idea was no BAB from the start. But you're right, it's still too strong. Maybe if it was +1 Dex every level and poor BAB? That way the attack still rises, but the other bonuses are only half. I'll give the desription some real thought, and post it again when I do. Shaman: I have RotW, Champion of Corellon is not what I had in mind. First, it's for elves while I was thinking of restricting it to Small or smaller characters. Second, the main idea that I had here is a character that gainsS desterity, not gains from it. Any character gains from high dexterity, like StevenO said. The War Hulk is a PrC that instead of gaining BAB, you gain +2 strength every level. It's nice, and some say a bit overpowered.