Disciple of Corellon Larethian (PEACH) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Disciple of Corellon Larethian (PEACH) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
okpokalypse
10-08-07, 06:00 PM I've already worked out this PrC with my DM as an alternative to the "Radiant Servant of Pelor," but for Corellon Larethian as the deity and encompassing more Elven ideals. Just wanted to post it up here and see what you all think... One thing I thought could potentially be over-powered was Arcane Infustion, but between the checks and the idea that any spell the character learns must be present & learned in game makes it extremely controllable by the DM. That prevents the likes of Celerity from being taken.

Half the bonuses are fluffy, and the feats don't allow for the likes of DMM to be taken because of the hitch that this PrC doesn't increase Turning Ability.

Anyhow, here goes...

Disciple of Corellon LarethianOnly a few chosen become Disciples of Corellon Larethian. Embodying all that Corellon wishes of his followers, they are both steadfast protectors of freedom and staunch foes of evil, in all it’s forms. They serve as leaders, teachers, diplomats and generals within the Elven communities. They are quick to engage in battle against tyranny and oppression, and will not tolerate those who might seek to control and dominate others. When conflict arises between two forces of good, or even amongst two good people, they serve as mediators and seek peaceful resolutions and understanding.

Unlike most elves, Disciples of Corellon Larethian often find themselves apart from Elven soceity for extended periods of time, traveling the world for a variety of reasons. Some do so to assist in combating the ills of the world, while others seek to bring word of Corellon to distant lands, or to establish new orders to Corellon in such places. Wherever it is they go, they tend to find themselves in advisory positions to those in power, as their council is often highly sought, and their presence is often welcomed. Unlike many advisors however, Disciples of Corellon Larethian have a prowess in battle few others of their ilk do. Their martial training with the longsword and longbow, their wide-ranging combat enhancing spells and the infusion of arcane spells into their divine magic makes them a strong force in the battle against evil in the world around them.

NPC Disciples of Corellon Larethian, while rare, may be found throughout the world where the need of one is at hand. They will often reside in well-trafficked populated areas where they can keep abreast of happenings in the world and respond where needed. They prefer to remain in touch with the orders of deities which are friendly to Corellon and his doctrine. Among these are the holy-orders of Ehlonna, Heironeous, Kord, Moradin and Pelor. They are on very good terms with the Champions of Corellon Larethian, Fellowship of the Forgotten Flowers and the Seekers of the Misty Isle – often partnering with them in many endeavors throughout the lands.
Hit Die: d8

Requirements:Skills: 12 Ranks Diplomacy, 10 Ranks Knowledge: Arcane, 10 Ranks Knowledge:Religion
Spell Casting: Ability to cast 5th Level Divine Spells
Special: Must be a follower of Corellon Larethian
Class Skills:Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge: Arcane (Int) , Knowledge: Religion (Int), Knowledge: The Planes (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis)
Skill Points at each Level: 4 + Intelligence Modifier

Lv BAB Frt Ref Wil Special Spells
1 +0 +2 +0 +2 Bonus Domain, Emissary of the Elves, Restrictions +1 Level of Divine Class
2 +1 +3 +0 +3 Aura of Competence +1 Level of Divine Class
3 +2 +3 +1 +3 Arcane Infusion +1 Level of Divine Class
4 +3 +4 +1 +4 Bonus Feat +1 Level of Divine Class
5 +3 +4 +1 +4 Aura of Protection +1 Level of Divine Class
6 +4 +5 +2 +5 +1 Level of Divine Class
7 +5 +5 +2 +5 Bonus Feat +1 Level of Divine Class
8 +6 +6 +2 +6 Aura of Corellon's Grace +1 Level of Divine Class
9 +6 +6 +3 +6 +1 Level of Divine Class
10 +7 +7 +3 +7 Bonus Feat +1 Level of Divine Class

Class Features
Bonus Domain, At 1st Level the Disciple gains access to one of the following Domains: Chaos, Community, Elf, Good, Magic, Protection, Travel or War. If a Disciple already has access to one of these domains, they may not take it a second time.

Emissary of the Elves, In the vein of Corellon’s ideals, the Disciple is gifted with a +2 Competence Bonus to Charisma based Skills when engaging in any of the following:
• Acting as a Representative of the Order of Corellon Larethian.
• Acting as a Representative of the Elves or an Elven House.
• Acting as a Mediator between two quarreling Lords, Factions or Societies.

Restrictions, The Disciple of Corellon Larethian is prohibited from casting any spells with the Necromancy or Evil descriptors.

Aura of Competence, At 2nd Level the Disciple gains an Aura of Competence. The Aura has a 5’ Radius per Disciple Level. Those of Good Alignment and all Non-Evil Elves gain the following bonuses:
• +1 Competence Bonus per 2 Disciple Levels on Perform and Craft Checks.

Arcane Infusion, The Disciple of Corellon Larethian learns to infuse his Arcane Knowledge into Divine Spells. At 3rd Level he may attempt to learn to convert an Arcane Spell into a Divine Spell granted by Corellon Larethian. Spells learned as such must be 2 Spell Levels lower than his current maximum. The Disciple must have access to the spell through an Arcane caster’s spell-book or having a scroll of the spell to be learned. A Knowledge: Arcane check of 15 + Spell Level must be passed in order to gain the understanding of the Arcane spell, and another Knowledge: Religion check of 15 + Spell Level must be passed in order to gain the ability to use the spell through Divine magic. If the check fails, the Disciple may never attempt to learn that specific spell again. Only 1 Spell per Spell Level may be learned, and once learned, It may never be unlearned.

Bonus Feat, Bonus Feats are gained at 4th, 7th and 10th levels. These may be chosen from Divine or Meta-Magic Feats. The Disciple may not select feats that require Turn / Rebuke Undead as a pre-requisite as this class does not provide advancement in such.

Aura of Protection, At 5th Level the Disciple gains an Aura of Protection. The Aura has a 5’ Radius per Disciple Level. Those of Good Alignment and all Non-Evil Elves gain the following bonuses:
• Resistance to Possession & Compulsion. (as Protection from Evil)
Evil Creatures within the Aura must make a Will Save (DC 15) or become Shaken by the presence of Corellon’s Protection. Any creature that can sense Auras, or has appropriate Detect spells on will sense Moderate Good and Minor Abjuration.

Aura of Corellon’s Grace, At 8th Level the Disciple gains the Aura of Corellon’s Grace. The Aura has a 5’ Radius per Disciple Level. Those of Good Alignment and all Non-Evil Elves feel a sense of comfort and well being within the Aura and gain the following bonuses:
• Suppresses Fatigue, Treats Exhaustion as Fatigue.
• +1 Competence Bonus per 2 Disciple Levels on Dexterity based skill checks.
• +10’ Base Movement
Evil Creatures entering the Aura feel uneasy, but suffer no other adverse effects. Any creature that can sense Auras, or as appropriate Detect spells on will sense Strong Good and Moderate Enchantment.
okpokalypse
10-13-07, 12:17 PM [Shameless Bump]

:bump:
The_Shaman
10-13-07, 01:42 PM Why wouldn't any cleric take this? The DMM argument is, in fact, completely false - many divine feats don't require a high-level turning ability, just any turning ability. That's why they're actually more valuable to character builds like the paladin or PrC/multiclass clerics who can't turn undead much anyway. As clerics of a good deity, those clerics already can't cast spells with the evil descriptor. So basically the only serious restriction is that the cleric can't cast death ward, undeath to death, or a few other useful necromancy spells.

Not enough IMO - either include some more requirements or some additional limitations.
okpokalypse
10-13-07, 03:15 PM Why wouldn't any cleric take this? The DMM argument is, in fact, completely false - many divine feats don't require a high-level turning ability, just any turning ability. That's why they're actually more valuable to character builds like the paladin or PrC/multiclass clerics who can't turn undead much anyway. As clerics of a good deity, those clerics already can't cast spells with the evil descriptor. So basically the only serious restriction is that the cleric can't cast death ward, undeath to death, or a few other useful necromancy spells.

Not enough IMO - either include some more requirements or some additional limitations.

The same thing was said when the PrC "Radiant Servant of Pelor" was published. Too Powerful. Everyone is going to take this. But the thing is that it's Deity Specific, which is quite a large restriction right from the start, and keep in mind, this PrC is designed to be at equal power-level to the Radiant Servant, with a higher-level entry requirement, but for a different deity.

The issue with adding more requirements is that this PrC already has earliest entry at 10th Level (11th for Spontaneous Casters). Which means as a 10-Level Progression, it can't take on anything else that will delay admission to the class.

As to the DMM thing, I'm not saying one couldn't already have the DMM Feat, but they cannot take it with the Bonus Feats afforded this PrC. They can't take any Feats that have Turning as a requirement because the class doesn't provide Turning as an ability. Sure, they can still take such feats with their normal feats for leveling - but that shouldn't reflect on the class.

As for Necromancy Spells, there's actually quite a few that are very useful that are often overlooked. Causing Blindness / Deafness, Fear, Disease, Curses, Gentle Repose, Mark of Justice and Speak with Dead. And then there's the obvious ones: Astral Projection, Death Ward, Destruction, Energy Drain, Harm, Inflict Spells, Slay Living, Soul Bind, Symbols (various), Undeath to Death and Wail of the Banshee. And those are just from the PhB - and none have the Evil Descriptor.

Seriously, taking away Slay Living and Harm takes away a large chunk of the Cleric's arsenal. A Save-or-Die and what is the best single-target damaging spell in the game for a Divine Caster. What other spell does an outright 10 Damage per Caster Level? Combined with Meta-Magic reach, this is an absolutely killer combination. A combination this PrC prevents.

I won't argue that any Cleric of Corellon Larethian wouldn't want to take this PrC. They'd be foolish not to. But the exact same can be said for any Cleric of Pelor with regards to the Radiant Servant. After all you're getting full spell progression, free Empowered, Maximized and Supreme (Emp + Max) Healing, Greater Turning (along with Continued Turning Progression), a Bonus Domain, Divine Health, an Aura of Warding and a 10d6 100' Radius Positive Energy Burst.

In terms of power between the two PrCs, I think they're quite even. I'd actually lean towards the Radiant Servant having a distinct edge when you consider they may enter their PrC at Level 7 as opposed to Level 10 for the Disciple. They also have no restrictions (which means they can get access to a Spectral Hand (Necromancy) and cast their uber Healing spells at medium range) - or cast Harms & Slay Livings.

I don't mean to dismiss your opinion, but please don't dismiss that this PrC is supposed to be on par with another PrC, but with a different Deity theme.

Also, if you're going to say something should have more limitations or restrictions - offer something up.
windscar18
10-13-07, 04:11 PM Correction: NO cleric of Pelor is even closely foolish if he decides to not take the Radiant Servant of Pelor. In fact, by comparison to more general cleric classes, taking the Radiant Servant of Pelor does absolutely nothing for your combat ability, only mildly aids your Healing ability (since, by that point, you're using Heal almost entirely, so you can only Empower it), and gives you some mediocre turn undead abilities. It makes you a useful one-trick pony, but only a one-trick pony.

By comparison, this PrC grants such a huge versitality boon to the Cleric that it's not even funny. Drop Arcane Infusion.
okpokalypse
10-13-07, 07:37 PM Correction: NO cleric of Pelor is even closely foolish if he decides to not take the Radiant Servant of Pelor. In fact, by comparison to more general cleric classes, taking the Radiant Servant of Pelor does absolutely nothing for your combat ability, only mildly aids your Healing ability (since, by that point, you're using Heal almost entirely, so you can only Empower it), and gives you some mediocre turn undead abilities. It makes you a useful one-trick pony, but only a one-trick pony.

I 100% disagree with you. If you're a Cleric who's looking to go Melee, you either aren't a follower of Pelor, the God of the Sun & Healing - or you're a part-time role-player, as in "not for this build." The Radiant Servant does two things better than any other Class / PrC in the game: Combat Undead & Heal. In case you didn't know, those are the two primary functions of the Cleric in general, and moreso for Pelor than any other. Sure, if you play in a party with 4 Clerics who each take different molds to mimic each archetype, then the melee, blasting and diviner/trapspringer aren't going to take the Radiant Servant PrC. But the Healer always will.

Come on. 39 HP Cure Moderate (L2), 78 HP Cure Crit (L4), 225 HP Heal (L6). None incurring Spell Level adjustments for Meta-Meagic Boosts? Take some Extra Spell feats to get Spectral Hand and Celerity. Take Reach Spell and DMM Reach. You've still got up to 6 Feats left depending on Race and Flaws. At this point you're casting 78 HP Cure Spells at Medium Range. Both Heal and Slay Living have range now at the cost of burning 3 Turns.

You shouldn't even need to use Heal very often with a Radiant Servant. Only in the most dire of emergencies. After all, do you really hold off on Healing your allies until they're 225 HP Down? Do any of your allies have more than 225 HP at L16 (When you've completed the Radiant Servant Progression)? Are you really ever in a situation where 78 HP of Healing leaves someone on the brink of death? If it's a situation where a large amount of the party was affected by an AoE, then you'll use another L6 Spell, Cure Moderate, Mass - which at L16 will cure 48 HP to everyone - and that's a major increase over the effects you'd normally have compared to a non-empowered, non-maximized effect (25 Normally on Average at L16).

The Radiant Servant's progression effectively gets him 3 Uber-Powered Feats, in addition to a Bonus Domain, Aura, Divine Health and a 100'r Positive Energy Burst. You don't think this is incredibly powerful?!

By comparison, this PrC grants such a huge versitality boon to the Cleric that it's not even funny. Drop Arcane Infusion.

Arcane Infusion is the meat of the PrC, and it's as much in tune with Corellon's theme as Turning Undead is with Pelor's theme. Without Arcane Infusion, it's kind of a pointless class. I'd sooner do something else with the Bonus Feats, since those were just add-ons to keep the PrC on the same level of the Radiant Servant.

As it stands, in comparison to the Radiant Servant, the Bonus Domains are a Wash. The 3 Feats come up short compared to the Healing Meta-Magic the Radiant Servant gets. Emissary of the Elves, Aura of Competence and Aura of Protection are all fluff and/or redundant to the most basic buffs carried around in-game - similar to the Radiant Servant's Radiance and Aura. The Disciple's L8 Aura has real party benefit, and is somewhat comprable in power, if still on the short end, to the Radiant Servant's Energy Burst.

So basically it comes down to this: Is Arcane Infusion the equaivalent of the following:
- Continued Turning Progression
- Extra Greater Turning [Feat]
- Divine Health
- The Disparity between aforementioned abilities.

I personally think it is for 3 reasons:

1. The Checks. Assuming you're L10 when you take your first level of the Disciple of Corellon Larethian, the highest level Arcane spell you could bring over is 3rd level. You'd have to make two DC 18 Checks to learn the given 3rd Level Spell. If you've kept both Knowledge Skills applied maxxed, and somehow didn't bury your Int, then you're likely making checks at 13+d20. Doing such twice means you've got a 36% chance of failing to learn the spell. Learning any spell is not a given.

2. The Restrictions. Spell Level - 2 Max. Limited to Max 7th Level Arcane Spells at Level 17, and only one spell at each level. Compare this to dual-caster progressions who get two full spell progressions and 9th / 7th Level Spells from either as well as an unlimited amounts of spells known. Also, the inability to cast any Necromancy Spells. As listed earlier, these are some of the most potent spells the Cleric has. Ironically, restricting a school of spells is what specialist wizards undergo to get an extra spell slot at each level.

3. The spell must be accessible in-game. That means as a DM you have control over what is being learned through this ability. Players cannot go sifting through the latest splatbook to find the newest and best way to min/max their spell lists.

The latter is probably the largest limitation all told because there are very few spell abilities now that are unique to being Arcane. All the expansions have made the Divine side of the equation have spells that are just as good in terms of raw damage potential, have save-or-die effects or provide great utility. Really the only places they come up short are the following:

Creating Extra Time / Movement. (Haste, Celerity, Time Stop)
Travel. (Fly, Dim Door, Teleport, Greater Teleport)
Personal / Object Transmutations. (Polymorph(s), ShapeChange)
Concealment. (Invis and a Variety of Illusion Spells)
Permanent Effects & Bonuses. (Permanency, Wish)

And the kicker is that one can get almost any of the above spells by taking specific domains. Heck, I've seen quite a few Clerics go Contemplative (Two Extra Domains) and then take Domain Spontaneity multiple times. Look at how one can easily supplement Wizard spells via a Domain & Domain Spontaneity:

Animal gets you [I]Shapechange.
Cavern gets you Detect Secret Doors and Imprisonment.
Envy gets you Limited Wish and Wish.
Force gets you Wall of Force and Force Cage.
Time gets you Haste, Permanency, Contingency and Time Stop.
Travel gets you Fly, Dim Door, Teleport, Greater Teleport, Phase Door.
Trickery gets you Invis, Non-Detection, Poly Any Object and Time Stop.

Travel, Trickery & Two Feats means relatively unlimited Travel Utility as well as Concealment Spells & Time Stop.

Anyhow, I've gone off on a tangent...

I just don't see how Arcane Infusion (considering the limitations and restrictions) tips this PrC as superior in some way - especially compared to some existing PrCs out there.

If it's the versatility that you feel is out of place in a Cleric-based PrC, well, that was almost entirely what I was going for. A Cleric PrC that allowed a little bit of dipping into Arcane Magic without allow free reign over it. It's all about that Elven freedom, man :).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
okpokalypse 10-08-07, 06:00 PM	I've already worked out this PrC with my DM as an alternative to the "Radiant Servant of Pelor," but for Corellon Larethian as the deity and encompassing more Elven ideals. Just wanted to post it up here and see what you all think... One thing I thought could potentially be over-powered was Arcane Infustion, but between the checks and the idea that any spell the character learns must be present & learned in game makes it extremely controllable by the DM. That prevents the likes of Celerity from being taken. Half the bonuses are fluffy, and the feats don't allow for the likes of DMM to be taken because of the hitch that this PrC doesn't increase Turning Ability. Anyhow, here goes... Disciple of Corellon LarethianOnly a few chosen become Disciples of Corellon Larethian. Embodying all that Corellon wishes of his followers, they are both steadfast protectors of freedom and staunch foes of evil, in all it’s forms. They serve as leaders, teachers, diplomats and generals within the Elven communities. They are quick to engage in battle against tyranny and oppression, and will not tolerate those who might seek to control and dominate others. When conflict arises between two forces of good, or even amongst two good people, they serve as mediators and seek peaceful resolutions and understanding. Unlike most elves, Disciples of Corellon Larethian often find themselves apart from Elven soceity for extended periods of time, traveling the world for a variety of reasons. Some do so to assist in combating the ills of the world, while others seek to bring word of Corellon to distant lands, or to establish new orders to Corellon in such places. Wherever it is they go, they tend to find themselves in advisory positions to those in power, as their council is often highly sought, and their presence is often welcomed. Unlike many advisors however, Disciples of Corellon Larethian have a prowess in battle few others of their ilk do. Their martial training with the longsword and longbow, their wide-ranging combat enhancing spells and the infusion of arcane spells into their divine magic makes them a strong force in the battle against evil in the world around them. NPC Disciples of Corellon Larethian, while rare, may be found throughout the world where the need of one is at hand. They will often reside in well-trafficked populated areas where they can keep abreast of happenings in the world and respond where needed. They prefer to remain in touch with the orders of deities which are friendly to Corellon and his doctrine. Among these are the holy-orders of Ehlonna, Heironeous, Kord, Moradin and Pelor. They are on very good terms with the Champions of Corellon Larethian, Fellowship of the Forgotten Flowers and the Seekers of the Misty Isle – often partnering with them in many endeavors throughout the lands. Hit Die: d8 Requirements:Skills: 12 Ranks Diplomacy, 10 Ranks Knowledge: Arcane, 10 Ranks Knowledge:Religion Spell Casting: Ability to cast 5th Level Divine Spells Special: Must be a follower of Corellon Larethian Class Skills:Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge: Arcane (Int) , Knowledge: Religion (Int), Knowledge: The Planes (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis) Skill Points at each Level: 4 + Intelligence Modifier Lv BAB Frt Ref Wil Special Spells 1 +0 +2 +0 +2 Bonus Domain, Emissary of the Elves, Restrictions +1 Level of Divine Class 2 +1 +3 +0 +3 Aura of Competence +1 Level of Divine Class 3 +2 +3 +1 +3 Arcane Infusion +1 Level of Divine Class 4 +3 +4 +1 +4 Bonus Feat +1 Level of Divine Class 5 +3 +4 +1 +4 Aura of Protection +1 Level of Divine Class 6 +4 +5 +2 +5 +1 Level of Divine Class 7 +5 +5 +2 +5 Bonus Feat +1 Level of Divine Class 8 +6 +6 +2 +6 Aura of Corellon's Grace +1 Level of Divine Class 9 +6 +6 +3 +6 +1 Level of Divine Class 10 +7 +7 +3 +7 Bonus Feat +1 Level of Divine Class Class Features Bonus Domain, At 1st Level the Disciple gains access to one of the following Domains: Chaos, Community, Elf, Good, Magic, Protection, Travel or War. If a Disciple already has access to one of these domains, they may not take it a second time. Emissary of the Elves, In the vein of Corellon’s ideals, the Disciple is gifted with a +2 Competence Bonus to Charisma based Skills when engaging in any of the following: • Acting as a Representative of the Order of Corellon Larethian. • Acting as a Representative of the Elves or an Elven House. • Acting as a Mediator between two quarreling Lords, Factions or Societies. Restrictions, The Disciple of Corellon Larethian is prohibited from casting any spells with the Necromancy or Evil descriptors. Aura of Competence, At 2nd Level the Disciple gains an Aura of Competence. The Aura has a 5’ Radius per Disciple Level. Those of Good Alignment and all Non-Evil Elves gain the following bonuses: • +1 Competence Bonus per 2 Disciple Levels on Perform and Craft Checks. Arcane Infusion, The Disciple of Corellon Larethian learns to infuse his Arcane Knowledge into Divine Spells. At 3rd Level he may attempt to learn to convert an Arcane Spell into a Divine Spell granted by Corellon Larethian. Spells learned as such must be 2 Spell Levels lower than his current maximum. The Disciple must have access to the spell through an Arcane caster’s spell-book or having a scroll of the spell to be learned. A Knowledge: Arcane check of 15 + Spell Level must be passed in order to gain the understanding of the Arcane spell, and another Knowledge: Religion check of 15 + Spell Level must be passed in order to gain the ability to use the spell through Divine magic. If the check fails, the Disciple may never attempt to learn that specific spell again. Only 1 Spell per Spell Level may be learned, and once learned, It may never be unlearned. Bonus Feat, Bonus Feats are gained at 4th, 7th and 10th levels. These may be chosen from Divine or Meta-Magic Feats. The Disciple may not select feats that require Turn / Rebuke Undead as a pre-requisite as this class does not provide advancement in such. Aura of Protection, At 5th Level the Disciple gains an Aura of Protection. The Aura has a 5’ Radius per Disciple Level. Those of Good Alignment and all Non-Evil Elves gain the following bonuses: • Resistance to Possession & Compulsion. (as Protection from Evil) Evil Creatures within the Aura must make a Will Save (DC 15) or become Shaken by the presence of Corellon’s Protection. Any creature that can sense Auras, or has appropriate Detect spells on will sense Moderate Good and Minor Abjuration. Aura of Corellon’s Grace, At 8th Level the Disciple gains the Aura of Corellon’s Grace. The Aura has a 5’ Radius per Disciple Level. Those of Good Alignment and all Non-Evil Elves feel a sense of comfort and well being within the Aura and gain the following bonuses: • Suppresses Fatigue, Treats Exhaustion as Fatigue. • +1 Competence Bonus per 2 Disciple Levels on Dexterity based skill checks. • +10’ Base Movement Evil Creatures entering the Aura feel uneasy, but suffer no other adverse effects. Any creature that can sense Auras, or as appropriate Detect spells on will sense Strong Good and Moderate Enchantment.
okpokalypse 10-13-07, 12:17 PM	[Shameless Bump] :bump:
The_Shaman 10-13-07, 01:42 PM	Why wouldn't any cleric take this? The DMM argument is, in fact, completely false - many divine feats don't require a high-level turning ability, just any turning ability. That's why they're actually more valuable to character builds like the paladin or PrC/multiclass clerics who can't turn undead much anyway. As clerics of a good deity, those clerics already can't cast spells with the evil descriptor. So basically the only serious restriction is that the cleric can't cast death ward, undeath to death, or a few other useful necromancy spells. Not enough IMO - either include some more requirements or some additional limitations.
okpokalypse 10-13-07, 03:15 PM	Why wouldn't any cleric take this? The DMM argument is, in fact, completely false - many divine feats don't require a high-level turning ability, just any turning ability. That's why they're actually more valuable to character builds like the paladin or PrC/multiclass clerics who can't turn undead much anyway. As clerics of a good deity, those clerics already can't cast spells with the evil descriptor. So basically the only serious restriction is that the cleric can't cast death ward, undeath to death, or a few other useful necromancy spells. Not enough IMO - either include some more requirements or some additional limitations. The same thing was said when the PrC "Radiant Servant of Pelor" was published. Too Powerful. Everyone is going to take this. But the thing is that it's Deity Specific, which is quite a large restriction right from the start, and keep in mind, this PrC is designed to be at equal power-level to the Radiant Servant, with a higher-level entry requirement, but for a different deity. The issue with adding more requirements is that this PrC already has earliest entry at 10th Level (11th for Spontaneous Casters). Which means as a 10-Level Progression, it can't take on anything else that will delay admission to the class. As to the DMM thing, I'm not saying one couldn't already have the DMM Feat, but they cannot take it with the Bonus Feats afforded this PrC. They can't take any Feats that have Turning as a requirement because the class doesn't provide Turning as an ability. Sure, they can still take such feats with their normal feats for leveling - but that shouldn't reflect on the class. As for Necromancy Spells, there's actually quite a few that are very useful that are often overlooked. Causing Blindness / Deafness, Fear, Disease, Curses, Gentle Repose, Mark of Justice and Speak with Dead. And then there's the obvious ones: Astral Projection, Death Ward, Destruction, Energy Drain, Harm, Inflict Spells, Slay Living, Soul Bind, Symbols (various), Undeath to Death and Wail of the Banshee. And those are just from the PhB - and none have the Evil Descriptor. Seriously, taking away Slay Living and Harm takes away a large chunk of the Cleric's arsenal. A Save-or-Die and what is the best single-target damaging spell in the game for a Divine Caster. What other spell does an outright 10 Damage per Caster Level? Combined with Meta-Magic reach, this is an absolutely killer combination. A combination this PrC prevents. I won't argue that any Cleric of Corellon Larethian wouldn't want to take this PrC. They'd be foolish not to. But the exact same can be said for any Cleric of Pelor with regards to the Radiant Servant. After all you're getting full spell progression, free Empowered, Maximized and Supreme (Emp + Max) Healing, Greater Turning (along with Continued Turning Progression), a Bonus Domain, Divine Health, an Aura of Warding and a 10d6 100' Radius Positive Energy Burst. In terms of power between the two PrCs, I think they're quite even. I'd actually lean towards the Radiant Servant having a distinct edge when you consider they may enter their PrC at Level 7 as opposed to Level 10 for the Disciple. They also have no restrictions (which means they can get access to a Spectral Hand (Necromancy) and cast their uber Healing spells at medium range) - or cast Harms & Slay Livings. I don't mean to dismiss your opinion, but please don't dismiss that this PrC is supposed to be on par with another PrC, but with a different Deity theme. Also, if you're going to say something should have more limitations or restrictions - offer something up.
windscar18 10-13-07, 04:11 PM	Correction: NO cleric of Pelor is even closely foolish if he decides to not take the Radiant Servant of Pelor. In fact, by comparison to more general cleric classes, taking the Radiant Servant of Pelor does absolutely nothing for your combat ability, only mildly aids your Healing ability (since, by that point, you're using Heal almost entirely, so you can only Empower it), and gives you some mediocre turn undead abilities. It makes you a useful one-trick pony, but only a one-trick pony. By comparison, this PrC grants such a huge versitality boon to the Cleric that it's not even funny. Drop Arcane Infusion.
okpokalypse 10-13-07, 07:37 PM	Correction: NO cleric of Pelor is even closely foolish if he decides to not take the Radiant Servant of Pelor. In fact, by comparison to more general cleric classes, taking the Radiant Servant of Pelor does absolutely nothing for your combat ability, only mildly aids your Healing ability (since, by that point, you're using Heal almost entirely, so you can only Empower it), and gives you some mediocre turn undead abilities. It makes you a useful one-trick pony, but only a one-trick pony. I 100% disagree with you. If you're a Cleric who's looking to go Melee, you either aren't a follower of Pelor, the God of the Sun & Healing - or you're a part-time role-player, as in "not for this build." The Radiant Servant does two things better than any other Class / PrC in the game: Combat Undead & Heal. In case you didn't know, those are the two primary functions of the Cleric in general, and moreso for Pelor than any other. Sure, if you play in a party with 4 Clerics who each take different molds to mimic each archetype, then the melee, blasting and diviner/trapspringer aren't going to take the Radiant Servant PrC. But the Healer always will. Come on. 39 HP Cure Moderate (L2), 78 HP Cure Crit (L4), 225 HP Heal (L6). None incurring Spell Level adjustments for Meta-Meagic Boosts? Take some Extra Spell feats to get Spectral Hand and Celerity. Take Reach Spell and DMM Reach. You've still got up to 6 Feats left depending on Race and Flaws. At this point you're casting 78 HP Cure Spells at Medium Range. Both Heal and Slay Living have range now at the cost of burning 3 Turns. You shouldn't even need to use Heal very often with a Radiant Servant. Only in the most dire of emergencies. After all, do you really hold off on Healing your allies until they're 225 HP Down? Do any of your allies have more than 225 HP at L16 (When you've completed the Radiant Servant Progression)? Are you really ever in a situation where 78 HP of Healing leaves someone on the brink of death? If it's a situation where a large amount of the party was affected by an AoE, then you'll use another L6 Spell, Cure Moderate, Mass - which at L16 will cure 48 HP to everyone - and that's a major increase over the effects you'd normally have compared to a non-empowered, non-maximized effect (25 Normally on Average at L16). The Radiant Servant's progression effectively gets him 3 Uber-Powered Feats, in addition to a Bonus Domain, Aura, Divine Health and a 100'r Positive Energy Burst. You don't think this is incredibly powerful?! By comparison, this PrC grants such a huge versitality boon to the Cleric that it's not even funny. Drop Arcane Infusion. Arcane Infusion is the meat of the PrC, and it's as much in tune with Corellon's theme as Turning Undead is with Pelor's theme. Without Arcane Infusion, it's kind of a pointless class. I'd sooner do something else with the Bonus Feats, since those were just add-ons to keep the PrC on the same level of the Radiant Servant. As it stands, in comparison to the Radiant Servant, the Bonus Domains are a Wash. The 3 Feats come up short compared to the Healing Meta-Magic the Radiant Servant gets. Emissary of the Elves, Aura of Competence and Aura of Protection are all fluff and/or redundant to the most basic buffs carried around in-game - similar to the Radiant Servant's Radiance and Aura. The Disciple's L8 Aura has real party benefit, and is somewhat comprable in power, if still on the short end, to the Radiant Servant's Energy Burst. So basically it comes down to this: Is Arcane Infusion the equaivalent of the following: - Continued Turning Progression - Extra Greater Turning [Feat] - Divine Health - The Disparity between aforementioned abilities. I personally think it is for 3 reasons: 1. The Checks. Assuming you're L10 when you take your first level of the Disciple of Corellon Larethian, the highest level Arcane spell you could bring over is 3rd level. You'd have to make two DC 18 Checks to learn the given 3rd Level Spell. If you've kept both Knowledge Skills applied maxxed, and somehow didn't bury your Int, then you're likely making checks at 13+d20. Doing such twice means you've got a 36% chance of failing to learn the spell. Learning any spell is not a given. 2. The Restrictions. Spell Level - 2 Max. Limited to Max 7th Level Arcane Spells at Level 17, and only one spell at each level. Compare this to dual-caster progressions who get two full spell progressions and 9th / 7th Level Spells from either as well as an unlimited amounts of spells known. Also, the inability to cast any Necromancy Spells. As listed earlier, these are some of the most potent spells the Cleric has. Ironically, restricting a school of spells is what specialist wizards undergo to get an extra spell slot at each level. 3. The spell must be accessible in-game. That means as a DM you have control over what is being learned through this ability. Players cannot go sifting through the latest splatbook to find the newest and best way to min/max their spell lists. The latter is probably the largest limitation all told because there are very few spell abilities now that are unique to being Arcane. All the expansions have made the Divine side of the equation have spells that are just as good in terms of raw damage potential, have save-or-die effects or provide great utility. Really the only places they come up short are the following: Creating Extra Time / Movement. (Haste, Celerity, Time Stop) Travel. (Fly, Dim Door, Teleport, Greater Teleport) Personal / Object Transmutations. (Polymorph(s), ShapeChange) Concealment. (Invis and a Variety of Illusion Spells) Permanent Effects & Bonuses. (Permanency, Wish) And the kicker is that one can get almost any of the above spells by taking specific domains. Heck, I've seen quite a few Clerics go Contemplative (Two Extra Domains) and then take Domain Spontaneity multiple times. Look at how one can easily supplement Wizard spells via a Domain & Domain Spontaneity: Animal gets you [I]Shapechange. Cavern gets you Detect Secret Doors and Imprisonment. Envy gets you Limited Wish and Wish. Force gets you Wall of Force and Force Cage. Time gets you Haste, Permanency, Contingency and Time Stop. Travel gets you Fly, Dim Door, Teleport, Greater Teleport, Phase Door. Trickery gets you Invis, Non-Detection, Poly Any Object and Time Stop. Travel, Trickery & Two Feats means relatively unlimited Travel Utility as well as Concealment Spells & Time Stop. Anyhow, I've gone off on a tangent... I just don't see how Arcane Infusion (considering the limitations and restrictions) tips this PrC as superior in some way - especially compared to some existing PrCs out there. If it's the versatility that you feel is out of place in a Cleric-based PrC, well, that was almost entirely what I was going for. A Cleric PrC that allowed a little bit of dipping into Arcane Magic without allow free reign over it. It's all about that Elven freedom, man :).