do I need Level Adjustment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

do I need Level Adjustment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BenGregor
03-18-08, 08:49 AM Hey, I'm playing a 5th level rouge who has met all the requirements of the thief-acrobat and my DM has already (somewhat unwittingly) approved to let me gestalt the two for my next 10 levels. Now that he fully understands what gestalt means, he's saying that he wants to alter the thief-acrobat class before I level up. I was just wondering if there was some other method I could convince him of using and level adjustment came to mind.
M-bark
03-19-08, 07:56 AM That's not how Gestalt worksl. Gestalt works from level 1 onwards. You can't just go Gestalt in the middle of a campaign.
forsaken1111
03-19-08, 07:35 PM Yeah, maybe YOU need to read up on how it works. Gestalt is not just "Oh my, lemme suddenly get two classes!" It is an optional rule which everyone uses or noone uses. Mixing Gestalt and non-gestalt classes in the same campaign will just make you terribly overpowered.
unundindur
03-20-08, 06:30 AM While I generally agree gestalt is meant as an "either/or" gameplay tool, I disagree it cannot be used otherwise.

In your case I could easily see you lose 1-2 Character levels in excahnge for gestalting for a few levels, especially those two classes, as there is close to no gain...

Here is how it would look:

1. Rogue 1
2. Rogue 2
3. Rogue 3
4. Rogue 4
5. Rogue 5
6. Level adjustment +1
7. Rogue 6 / Thief acrobat 1
8. Rogue 7 / Thief acrobat 2
9. Rogue 8 / Thief acrobat 3
10. Rogue 9 / Thief acrobat 4

I think it is fair, either as a +1 or +2 LA. Just look at what you actually gain... its not that much.
RobbyPants
03-20-08, 02:16 PM So, if I'm understanding you, you want to know what LA would be appropriate for a gestalt (or partially getstalt) character compared to a normal one?

Realistically, there's no single answer for this. You really have to look at what you gain. Some combinations are much more powerful than others. For example, looking at your combination, your BAB, hit dice, and saves will all be the same regardless. All you gain is the abilities of the two classes.

Other gestalt combinations can do things like net you a full BAB and full casting, all good saves, or d10 or better hit dice. Combinations like these are much better. At a minimum, someone could play a gestalt fighter//wizard, and play the character as a wizard, only utilizing the HP, Fort save, and feats. At its worst, the player will fully synergize the class combinations, to get the most possible out of both. In situations like these, the LA would be much higher.

Also, do note that a static LA doesn't make much sense either. It will have to increase along with the character level, as you're adding more and more abilities as your level increases. Other than that, I agree with the first two posters in that this isn't how gestalt typically works. You're likely to end up with some wierd results, mixing gestalt and non-gestalt in the same game.
BenGregor
03-27-08, 02:08 PM ... looking at your combination, your BAB, hit dice, and saves will all be the same regardless. All you gain is the abilities of the two classes. ...

Actually that's not quite true. I figured that since you don't actually increase a bab or a save score by one for every level where the phb says '+1' then I can take that as meaning that it's x+1 where x is what the stat was at when the character was (essentially) level 0. There for I took that same approach when figuring out the scores for my partial gestalt. They came out like this:

Lvl bab fort ref will
r5t0 3 1 4 1
r6t0 4 2 6 2

whereas if I stayed straight rouge it would be:

Lvl bab fort ref will
r5t0 3 1 4 1
r6t0 4 2 5 2

meaning that I also get a slightly better reflex save and the abilities of both classes.

Also on the subject of the class abilities, I get 'kip up' and 'unbounded leap' both right away. Now the description for 'kip up' is very straightforward saying the I can "stand up from a prone position as a free action" but I find the description for 'unbounded leap' a little confusing. It says "A thief-acrobat's height does not limit her jumping distance (horizontal or vertical)" and I read through the description for the jump skill and it looked like the only thing involving the size of a character was the vertical reach. I'm a small character so I'm wondering how this will effect my jumping ability. I think I'll also post this part elsewhere so you don't need to respond to it here if you don't want to.

The rest of the class abilities are very straightforward so I'm not too worried about them.
RobbyPants
03-28-08, 12:54 PM but I find the description for 'unbounded leap' a little confusing. It says "A thief-acrobat's height does not limit her jumping distance (horizontal or vertical)" and I read through the description for the jump skill and it looked like the only thing involving the size of a character was the vertical reach. I'm a small character so I'm wondering how this will effect my jumping ability. I think I'll also post this part elsewhere so you don't need to respond to it here if you don't want to.
This is a 3.0 holdover. Since Thief Acrobat was originally a 3.0 PrC, they probably did a direct copy-paste of the ability, and forgot to take that part out.

In 3.0, the distance you could jump was directly capped based on your height. You needed an ability like Leap of the Heavens or Unbounded Leap to get passed that restriction.
FrostWolf
04-05-08, 03:54 PM +1 LA for every level you intend to do it sounds right to me. Anyone else?
unundindur
04-05-08, 11:52 PM Disagree, strongly. Thats more or less like trading a level for a feat (or two).

If you think about it, that cannot be ok in any case, since you then could just take the otehr level afterwards.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BenGregor 03-18-08, 08:49 AM	Hey, I'm playing a 5th level rouge who has met all the requirements of the thief-acrobat and my DM has already (somewhat unwittingly) approved to let me gestalt the two for my next 10 levels. Now that he fully understands what gestalt means, he's saying that he wants to alter the thief-acrobat class before I level up. I was just wondering if there was some other method I could convince him of using and level adjustment came to mind.
M-bark 03-19-08, 07:56 AM	That's not how Gestalt worksl. Gestalt works from level 1 onwards. You can't just go Gestalt in the middle of a campaign.
forsaken1111 03-19-08, 07:35 PM	Yeah, maybe YOU need to read up on how it works. Gestalt is not just "Oh my, lemme suddenly get two classes!" It is an optional rule which everyone uses or noone uses. Mixing Gestalt and non-gestalt classes in the same campaign will just make you terribly overpowered.
unundindur 03-20-08, 06:30 AM	While I generally agree gestalt is meant as an "either/or" gameplay tool, I disagree it cannot be used otherwise. In your case I could easily see you lose 1-2 Character levels in excahnge for gestalting for a few levels, especially those two classes, as there is close to no gain... Here is how it would look: 1. Rogue 1 2. Rogue 2 3. Rogue 3 4. Rogue 4 5. Rogue 5 6. Level adjustment +1 7. Rogue 6 / Thief acrobat 1 8. Rogue 7 / Thief acrobat 2 9. Rogue 8 / Thief acrobat 3 10. Rogue 9 / Thief acrobat 4 I think it is fair, either as a +1 or +2 LA. Just look at what you actually gain... its not that much.
RobbyPants 03-20-08, 02:16 PM	So, if I'm understanding you, you want to know what LA would be appropriate for a gestalt (or partially getstalt) character compared to a normal one? Realistically, there's no single answer for this. You really have to look at what you gain. Some combinations are much more powerful than others. For example, looking at your combination, your BAB, hit dice, and saves will all be the same regardless. All you gain is the abilities of the two classes. Other gestalt combinations can do things like net you a full BAB and full casting, all good saves, or d10 or better hit dice. Combinations like these are much better. At a minimum, someone could play a gestalt fighter//wizard, and play the character as a wizard, only utilizing the HP, Fort save, and feats. At its worst, the player will fully synergize the class combinations, to get the most possible out of both. In situations like these, the LA would be much higher. Also, do note that a static LA doesn't make much sense either. It will have to increase along with the character level, as you're adding more and more abilities as your level increases. Other than that, I agree with the first two posters in that this isn't how gestalt typically works. You're likely to end up with some wierd results, mixing gestalt and non-gestalt in the same game.
BenGregor 03-27-08, 02:08 PM	... looking at your combination, your BAB, hit dice, and saves will all be the same regardless. All you gain is the abilities of the two classes. ... Actually that's not quite true. I figured that since you don't actually increase a bab or a save score by one for every level where the phb says '+1' then I can take that as meaning that it's x+1 where x is what the stat was at when the character was (essentially) level 0. There for I took that same approach when figuring out the scores for my partial gestalt. They came out like this: Lvl bab fort ref will r5t0 3 1 4 1 r6t0 4 2 6 2 whereas if I stayed straight rouge it would be: Lvl bab fort ref will r5t0 3 1 4 1 r6t0 4 2 5 2 meaning that I also get a slightly better reflex save and the abilities of both classes. Also on the subject of the class abilities, I get 'kip up' and 'unbounded leap' both right away. Now the description for 'kip up' is very straightforward saying the I can "stand up from a prone position as a free action" but I find the description for 'unbounded leap' a little confusing. It says "A thief-acrobat's height does not limit her jumping distance (horizontal or vertical)" and I read through the description for the jump skill and it looked like the only thing involving the size of a character was the vertical reach. I'm a small character so I'm wondering how this will effect my jumping ability. I think I'll also post this part elsewhere so you don't need to respond to it here if you don't want to. The rest of the class abilities are very straightforward so I'm not too worried about them.
RobbyPants 03-28-08, 12:54 PM	but I find the description for 'unbounded leap' a little confusing. It says "A thief-acrobat's height does not limit her jumping distance (horizontal or vertical)" and I read through the description for the jump skill and it looked like the only thing involving the size of a character was the vertical reach. I'm a small character so I'm wondering how this will effect my jumping ability. I think I'll also post this part elsewhere so you don't need to respond to it here if you don't want to. This is a 3.0 holdover. Since Thief Acrobat was originally a 3.0 PrC, they probably did a direct copy-paste of the ability, and forgot to take that part out. In 3.0, the distance you could jump was directly capped based on your height. You needed an ability like Leap of the Heavens or Unbounded Leap to get passed that restriction.
FrostWolf 04-05-08, 03:54 PM	+1 LA for every level you intend to do it sounds right to me. Anyone else?
unundindur 04-05-08, 11:52 PM	Disagree, strongly. Thats more or less like trading a level for a feat (or two). If you think about it, that cannot be ok in any case, since you then could just take the otehr level afterwards.