Does this sound like a bad idea? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Does this sound like a bad idea? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zovc
10-19-07, 02:43 PM I was really tired when this idea hit me, so bear with me.

Does it sound like a bad idea to combine spontaneous arcane casting with prepared arcane casting in the form of a prestige class?

I'm still trying to remember how exactly I was going to do this class, but it probably would have ended up overpowered.

It involved the ability to cast spells from one class (spontaneous/prepared) for the other, though.
LSMFT
10-19-07, 03:09 PM Any chance you mean something like the Ultimate Magus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3)?
vorpo
10-19-07, 03:10 PM I was really tired when this idea hit me, so bear with me.

Does it sound like a bad idea to combine spontaneous arcane casting with prepared arcane casting in the form of a prestige class?

I'm still trying to remember how exactly I was going to do this class, but it probably would have ended up overpowered.

It involved the ability to cast spells from one class (spontaneous/prepared) for the other, though.

There is the ultimate magus from CMage that advances spontaneous and prepared arcane progression at the same time.
Zovc
10-19-07, 03:27 PM That actually is almost identical to what I had in mind, I suppose my dreams allowed me to cast divination spells for a brief moment?

I was going to call the class the "Arcane Prodigy," however.
Naderion
10-19-07, 03:47 PM But yes, I think it's completely overpowered.
imakuni67
10-19-07, 03:53 PM I am still not sure on it's power level. You seem to be able to get more of lower level spells and more spells per day, but not the high level spells, such as mystic theurge. However, I think it's the Arcane spell power that breaks the class, if anything with the bonus metamagic feats being overkill.

Anyone have a detailed build analysis versus straight wizard or sorcerer?
Zovc
10-19-07, 04:05 PM Well, if I knew what I was doing with spellcasters I would compare them, but unfortunately, I've never had the chance to play one.
kriskey
10-19-07, 04:14 PM Ultimate Magus is really only overpowered using the "practiced spellcaster" trick which allows you to avoid losing spellcasting levels. If you want to avoid it being overpowered, simply change the reading on the class slightly.
vorpo
10-19-07, 05:07 PM The ideal lvls before taking Ultimate Magus would be Wiz 4/Sorc 1 or Wiz 3/sorc 2. For wiz 4/sorc 1/UM 10, you are only casting as an 11th lvl wiz AND sorc. How is this even be overpowering? A 15th clvl arcanist casting as 2 lvl 11 casters. When you compare it to other dual spell progression like the various theurges, you aren't really overpowered in terms of caster lvls at all. A Mystic Theurge would be like wiz 2/cleric 2/MT 10, a clvl 14 casting at CL 12 for both classes.
So, UM is not at all overpowered in terms of CL.
kriskey
10-19-07, 07:02 PM The ideal lvls before taking Ultimate Magus would be Wiz 4/Sorc 1 or Wiz 3/sorc 2. For wiz 4/sorc 1/UM 10, you are only casting as an 11th lvl wiz AND sorc. How is this even be overpowering? A 15th clvl arcanist casting as 2 lvl 11 casters. When you compare it to other dual spell progression like the various theurges, you aren't really overpowered in terms of caster lvls at all. A Mystic Theurge would be like wiz 2/cleric 2/MT 10, a clvl 14 casting at CL 12 for both classes.
So, UM is not at all overpowered in terms of CL.

Using the practiced spellcaster trick, both caster levels would be 14 or above.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=935068
vorpo
10-19-07, 07:08 PM Using the practiced spellcaster trick, both caster levels would be 14 or above.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=935068

Yes, but the feat is open to all casters. So that doesn't really make any difference. Besides, the feat adds to only CL. A single class would have more and higher spells available
kriskey
10-19-07, 07:14 PM Yes, but the feat is open to all casters. So that doesn't really make any difference. Besides, the feat adds to only CL. A single class would have more and higher spells available

If you read the thread linked to, you'll see where you're mistaken. How you've interpreted it is how the class *should* work if it were balanced, however. Which is what I was saying above.

Taking practiced spellcaster would not really affect a character without two classes.
vorpo
10-19-07, 07:25 PM If you read the thread linked to, you'll see where you're mistaken. How you've interpreted it is how the class *should* work if it were balanced, however. Which is what I was saying above.

Taking practiced spellcaster would not really affect a character without two classes.

Hmm, I guess I wasn't clear. I wasn't saying that PS works with single class caster. I was meaning to say that even with PS considered, single class caster would still have higher CL and more spells than someone multi-classed with PS feat. PS feat only raise your CL, not your spells progression. So, bottom line is, even with PS, UM is still not overpowering
imakuni67
10-20-07, 12:28 PM PS feat only raise your CL, not your spells progression.

I think some people forget that....
nightwyrm
10-20-07, 01:59 PM Oh no! It's happening again....
The UM levels where only a single class gets spell increases works on the class with the lowest caster level (CL). Thus, you want to use PS to increase the caster level of your spontaneous class so that you can put those single levels into your wizard class. At the end of the PrC (wiz4/sorc1/UM 10) your wizard casting is the same as a lv 13 wizard with a caster level of 17 (due to arcane spell power) and your sorc casting is the same as a lv 9 sorc with a caster level of also 17.

Thus, your prepared casting is slower by 2 levels compared to a straight wizard (and with any PrC that doesn't lose caster levels) and your spontaneous casting is stuck at lv 9.

Is this overpowered? Like most theurge classes, you lose higher levels spells to gain more low level spells. It probably better than MT, but I think it's not as insane as something like the Iot7V.
Sinfire Titan
10-20-07, 02:14 PM I am still not sure on it's power level. You seem to be able to get more of lower level spells and more spells per day, but not the high level spells, such as mystic theurge. However, I think it's the Arcane spell power that breaks the class, if anything with the bonus metamagic feats being overkill.

Anyone have a detailed build analysis versus straight wizard or sorcerer?

First and foremost, UlMa is the single most broken prestige class since Planar Shepperd. Secondly, Wizard all the way.
nightwyrm
10-20-07, 02:22 PM Alright, lets compare the UM with and without the PS "trick" with our favourite theurge the MT.

At level 15 (wiz3/cleric3/MT9) our MT gets lv 12 casting on both his wiz and cleric with one more level of dual casting progression to go. His max casting at lv 20 would be lv 17 on one of the cleric or wiz and lv 13 on the other.

Without the PS trick, at lv 15 our UM gets lv 11 casting on both his wiz and sorc. His max casting at lv 20 would be lv 16 on either his sorc or wiz and lv 11 on the other.

With the PS, at lv 15 the UM gets lv 13 wiz casting and lv 9 sorc casting. Max casting at lv 20 would be lv 18 on wiz and lv 9 on sorc.

Keeping in mind that I'm talking about spell casting level and not caster level. And max casting assumes single spell progression on one of the casting classes up to lv 20.
nightwyrm
10-20-07, 03:23 PM Arcane spell power doesn't do much. All it does is increase your caster level. It only matters when you need to do caster level checks, more damage dice for your damage spells (but most of those spells have caps of 10d6 or 15d6 anyways), and increases the duration of your spells.

The bonus metamagic feats and expanded spell knowledge are both nice but the best ability of UM is the augmented casting ability.
vorpo
10-20-07, 06:22 PM I am sure when they talk about "+1 to existing spellcasting levels" they mean spell progression level. Therefore, a wiz 4/sorc 1 with PS feat on sorc later gets UM lvls with "+1 to existing lower spellcasting levels" still has to apply this to sorc, not wiz. While sorc 1 is of higher "Caster Level", it is not a higher "Spellcasting Level". So, the previously mentioned PS trick will not work.
nightwyrm
10-20-07, 06:38 PM I am sure when they talk about "+1 to existing spellcasting levels" they mean spell progression level. Therefore, a wiz 4/sorc 1 with PS feat on sorc later gets UM lvls with "+1 to existing lower spellcasting levels" still has to apply this to sorc, not wiz. While sorc 1 is of higher "Caster Level", it is not a higher "Spellcasting Level". So, the previously mentioned PS trick will not work.

Sigh...this is like a bad deja vu. Read the description in class features instead of relying on the chart. It reads: At 1st, 4th and 7th level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in your arcane spellcasting class with the lowest caster level.
vorpo
10-20-07, 06:44 PM Sigh...this is like a bad deja vu. Read the description in class features instead of relying on the chart. It reads: At 1st, 4th and 7th level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in your arcane spellcasting class with the lowest caster level.

I am sure cust service would dictate otherwise... but I will just have to ask them instead of arguing here.
nightwyrm
10-20-07, 07:28 PM http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=780018&page=9

scroll down to post 251.

Dear god that discussion thread gives me nightmares.
vorpo
10-20-07, 07:37 PM So you have 13 CL each (with sorc at 9th lvl progression instead of 11CL each (both at 11th lvl progression)... Ok.. so your wiz is essentially 2 lvls not lagging. It is still by far not overpowering.
nightwyrm
10-20-07, 07:40 PM So you have 13 CL each (with sorc at 9th lvl progression instead of 11CL each (both at 11th lvl progression)... Ok.. so your wiz is essentially 2 lvls not lagging. It is still by far not overpowering.

The custserv guy forgot to add in the arcane spell power so it should be CL 17 for both, but I agree that it's not overpowering. Fun, but not overpowered.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zovc 10-19-07, 02:43 PM	I was really tired when this idea hit me, so bear with me. Does it sound like a bad idea to combine spontaneous arcane casting with prepared arcane casting in the form of a prestige class? I'm still trying to remember how exactly I was going to do this class, but it probably would have ended up overpowered. It involved the ability to cast spells from one class (spontaneous/prepared) for the other, though.
LSMFT 10-19-07, 03:09 PM	Any chance you mean something like the Ultimate Magus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3)?
vorpo 10-19-07, 03:10 PM	I was really tired when this idea hit me, so bear with me. Does it sound like a bad idea to combine spontaneous arcane casting with prepared arcane casting in the form of a prestige class? I'm still trying to remember how exactly I was going to do this class, but it probably would have ended up overpowered. It involved the ability to cast spells from one class (spontaneous/prepared) for the other, though. There is the ultimate magus from CMage that advances spontaneous and prepared arcane progression at the same time.
Zovc 10-19-07, 03:27 PM	That actually is almost identical to what I had in mind, I suppose my dreams allowed me to cast divination spells for a brief moment? I was going to call the class the "Arcane Prodigy," however.
Naderion 10-19-07, 03:47 PM	But yes, I think it's completely overpowered.
imakuni67 10-19-07, 03:53 PM	I am still not sure on it's power level. You seem to be able to get more of lower level spells and more spells per day, but not the high level spells, such as mystic theurge. However, I think it's the Arcane spell power that breaks the class, if anything with the bonus metamagic feats being overkill. Anyone have a detailed build analysis versus straight wizard or sorcerer?
Zovc 10-19-07, 04:05 PM	Well, if I knew what I was doing with spellcasters I would compare them, but unfortunately, I've never had the chance to play one.
kriskey 10-19-07, 04:14 PM	Ultimate Magus is really only overpowered using the "practiced spellcaster" trick which allows you to avoid losing spellcasting levels. If you want to avoid it being overpowered, simply change the reading on the class slightly.
vorpo 10-19-07, 05:07 PM	The ideal lvls before taking Ultimate Magus would be Wiz 4/Sorc 1 or Wiz 3/sorc 2. For wiz 4/sorc 1/UM 10, you are only casting as an 11th lvl wiz AND sorc. How is this even be overpowering? A 15th clvl arcanist casting as 2 lvl 11 casters. When you compare it to other dual spell progression like the various theurges, you aren't really overpowered in terms of caster lvls at all. A Mystic Theurge would be like wiz 2/cleric 2/MT 10, a clvl 14 casting at CL 12 for both classes. So, UM is not at all overpowered in terms of CL.
kriskey 10-19-07, 07:02 PM	The ideal lvls before taking Ultimate Magus would be Wiz 4/Sorc 1 or Wiz 3/sorc 2. For wiz 4/sorc 1/UM 10, you are only casting as an 11th lvl wiz AND sorc. How is this even be overpowering? A 15th clvl arcanist casting as 2 lvl 11 casters. When you compare it to other dual spell progression like the various theurges, you aren't really overpowered in terms of caster lvls at all. A Mystic Theurge would be like wiz 2/cleric 2/MT 10, a clvl 14 casting at CL 12 for both classes. So, UM is not at all overpowered in terms of CL. Using the practiced spellcaster trick, both caster levels would be 14 or above. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=935068
vorpo 10-19-07, 07:08 PM	Using the practiced spellcaster trick, both caster levels would be 14 or above. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=935068 Yes, but the feat is open to all casters. So that doesn't really make any difference. Besides, the feat adds to only CL. A single class would have more and higher spells available
kriskey 10-19-07, 07:14 PM	Yes, but the feat is open to all casters. So that doesn't really make any difference. Besides, the feat adds to only CL. A single class would have more and higher spells available If you read the thread linked to, you'll see where you're mistaken. How you've interpreted it is how the class should work if it were balanced, however. Which is what I was saying above. Taking practiced spellcaster would not really affect a character without two classes.
vorpo 10-19-07, 07:25 PM	If you read the thread linked to, you'll see where you're mistaken. How you've interpreted it is how the class should work if it were balanced, however. Which is what I was saying above. Taking practiced spellcaster would not really affect a character without two classes. Hmm, I guess I wasn't clear. I wasn't saying that PS works with single class caster. I was meaning to say that even with PS considered, single class caster would still have higher CL and more spells than someone multi-classed with PS feat. PS feat only raise your CL, not your spells progression. So, bottom line is, even with PS, UM is still not overpowering
imakuni67 10-20-07, 12:28 PM	PS feat only raise your CL, not your spells progression. I think some people forget that....
nightwyrm 10-20-07, 01:59 PM	Oh no! It's happening again.... The UM levels where only a single class gets spell increases works on the class with the lowest caster level (CL). Thus, you want to use PS to increase the caster level of your spontaneous class so that you can put those single levels into your wizard class. At the end of the PrC (wiz4/sorc1/UM 10) your wizard casting is the same as a lv 13 wizard with a caster level of 17 (due to arcane spell power) and your sorc casting is the same as a lv 9 sorc with a caster level of also 17. Thus, your prepared casting is slower by 2 levels compared to a straight wizard (and with any PrC that doesn't lose caster levels) and your spontaneous casting is stuck at lv 9. Is this overpowered? Like most theurge classes, you lose higher levels spells to gain more low level spells. It probably better than MT, but I think it's not as insane as something like the Iot7V.
Sinfire Titan 10-20-07, 02:14 PM	I am still not sure on it's power level. You seem to be able to get more of lower level spells and more spells per day, but not the high level spells, such as mystic theurge. However, I think it's the Arcane spell power that breaks the class, if anything with the bonus metamagic feats being overkill. Anyone have a detailed build analysis versus straight wizard or sorcerer? First and foremost, UlMa is the single most broken prestige class since Planar Shepperd. Secondly, Wizard all the way.
nightwyrm 10-20-07, 02:22 PM	Alright, lets compare the UM with and without the PS "trick" with our favourite theurge the MT. At level 15 (wiz3/cleric3/MT9) our MT gets lv 12 casting on both his wiz and cleric with one more level of dual casting progression to go. His max casting at lv 20 would be lv 17 on one of the cleric or wiz and lv 13 on the other. Without the PS trick, at lv 15 our UM gets lv 11 casting on both his wiz and sorc. His max casting at lv 20 would be lv 16 on either his sorc or wiz and lv 11 on the other. With the PS, at lv 15 the UM gets lv 13 wiz casting and lv 9 sorc casting. Max casting at lv 20 would be lv 18 on wiz and lv 9 on sorc. Keeping in mind that I'm talking about spell casting level and not caster level. And max casting assumes single spell progression on one of the casting classes up to lv 20.
nightwyrm 10-20-07, 03:23 PM	Arcane spell power doesn't do much. All it does is increase your caster level. It only matters when you need to do caster level checks, more damage dice for your damage spells (but most of those spells have caps of 10d6 or 15d6 anyways), and increases the duration of your spells. The bonus metamagic feats and expanded spell knowledge are both nice but the best ability of UM is the augmented casting ability.
vorpo 10-20-07, 06:22 PM	I am sure when they talk about "+1 to existing spellcasting levels" they mean spell progression level. Therefore, a wiz 4/sorc 1 with PS feat on sorc later gets UM lvls with "+1 to existing lower spellcasting levels" still has to apply this to sorc, not wiz. While sorc 1 is of higher "Caster Level", it is not a higher "Spellcasting Level". So, the previously mentioned PS trick will not work.
nightwyrm 10-20-07, 06:38 PM	I am sure when they talk about "+1 to existing spellcasting levels" they mean spell progression level. Therefore, a wiz 4/sorc 1 with PS feat on sorc later gets UM lvls with "+1 to existing lower spellcasting levels" still has to apply this to sorc, not wiz. While sorc 1 is of higher "Caster Level", it is not a higher "Spellcasting Level". So, the previously mentioned PS trick will not work. Sigh...this is like a bad deja vu. Read the description in class features instead of relying on the chart. It reads: At 1st, 4th and 7th level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in your arcane spellcasting class with the lowest caster level.
vorpo 10-20-07, 06:44 PM	Sigh...this is like a bad deja vu. Read the description in class features instead of relying on the chart. It reads: At 1st, 4th and 7th level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in your arcane spellcasting class with the lowest caster level. I am sure cust service would dictate otherwise... but I will just have to ask them instead of arguing here.
nightwyrm 10-20-07, 07:28 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=780018&page=9 scroll down to post 251. Dear god that discussion thread gives me nightmares.
vorpo 10-20-07, 07:37 PM	So you have 13 CL each (with sorc at 9th lvl progression instead of 11CL each (both at 11th lvl progression)... Ok.. so your wiz is essentially 2 lvls not lagging. It is still by far not overpowering.
nightwyrm 10-20-07, 07:40 PM	So you have 13 CL each (with sorc at 9th lvl progression instead of 11CL each (both at 11th lvl progression)... Ok.. so your wiz is essentially 2 lvls not lagging. It is still by far not overpowering. The custserv guy forgot to add in the arcane spell power so it should be CL 17 for both, but I agree that it's not overpowering. Fun, but not overpowered.