Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cog_n_taz 06-15-07, 09:25 PM	By posting or submitting any text, images, designs, video, sound, code, data, lists, or other materials or information (such User-submitted content, collectively, "User Content") to or through a Site, including without limitation on any User profile page, you hereby irrevocably grant to Wizards, its affiliates and sublicensees, a worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, non-exclusive, and fully sub-licensable license, to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such User Content (in whole or in part) in any media and to incorporate the User Content into other works in any format or medium now known or later developed. The foregoing grants shall include the right to exploit any proprietary rights in such User Content, including but not limited to rights under copyright, trademark, service mark or patent laws under any relevant jurisdiction. ((Removed))
Lord_Gareth 06-15-07, 09:31 PM	Nifty - really nifty - even though the table is Funked Up.
cog_n_taz 06-15-07, 09:33 PM	Thanks, you read fast, don't ya? And yeah, I never got the hang of those tables, they seem to get wonky all by themselves. Oh, and how do you think it does power-wise?
cog_n_taz 06-15-07, 09:49 PM	Okay, added two abilities, at level 5 and 7.
EpicEvokerElf 06-15-07, 09:51 PM	I don't get it, sorry. The table and formatting really threw me off. Can you say it in smaller words? :D I think the concept is neat, though.
cog_n_taz 06-15-07, 09:54 PM	Okay, I don't know what' wrong with the formatting, but here goes... d4 hd wizard BAB good will, low fort and ref full casting alternates between another rank of natural armour of attack every level, madness? medicine! At 5th level, flesh golem discount at 7th level, miracle of medicine at level 10. Also, graft at level 2 and one more graft at every two levels thereafter.
Gideon_Gideonson 06-16-07, 01:29 AM	Well, I read it, but this will take a few read-throughs. Looks interesting, but the table is confusing me at the moment, and it's late. I'll take a closer look later.
Khael 06-16-07, 10:03 AM	Looks pretty good, but I'm concerned it maybe too good in the wrong hands before you even bring in the fact its full casting. And by wrong hands I don't even mean someone trying to screw your game up. So... i'll break this down: Madness? Medicine!; Flip the third switch, Igor!; These seem well, full flavour, good but not brilliant abilities, that fit well in about every way. The Miracle of Medicine; This seems like the other a nice twist, since it comes with the LA for everyone else, meaning no matter how many times it gets used the DM can scale the players/enemies up fine. Full casting... I'm not sold on this as a need. The fact that irrespective of how useful the caster is directly with or without it, he's likely got his benefits in already, with non-magical buffs, the ability to make cut-price armies, not to mention the potential of grafts... PreReqs: The knowledge anatomy is while flavourful, I wonder. It essntially makes this class marked out solely for people who've been heading for this class, and this one alone from day one - anatomy having no other useful purpose in-combat (And i'm not sold on how much use it will ever have out of combat either - You don't often need to do an autopsy in D&D, and drawing likely comes under profession:artist.) Natural attack/armour: I wasn't too sure of this when I first look at it (D12 damage wizard), until I looked at it less directly(i.e. the fact by then everyone has higher damage weapons, a wizard no matter his weapon has low hits anyway etc.). It looks to be well, under powered on the weapon side, but very useful on the nat. armour side (and since they don't stack, no problems) Then I remembered PrCs are double sided. A fleshweaver BBEG is bad news. Enhcned AC/attack enemies, with no practical way to work out how to balance them off for fighting against, particularly at the low-end lvls6-7 when an extra AC point can be very important. So... it works in flavour, and in effect, but the more thnigs he gets to pump, the less balanced this is. Then grafts... Theres a graft system in the rules, which lets you put grafts against your gear by making your pay for them. Theres a reason. I know that in the hands of a good DM this isn't a problem. But if a DM has to virtually tailor his minions or even campaign just to stop his fleshweaver PC, who happens to have read LM, LoM and the like which list grafts, and their component part, from going out of control, theres a problem. Doubly so when they can pull it off in a day, losing virtually nothing save 2 CHA (Is that a per graft?). Then theres balance. Because there is nothing besides a graft lmit, you can't gauge a particular fleshweaver. If mine has a bodak eye, letting him kill thing with a glance, while yours has zombie arms attached for some huge combat damage, theres a chance they can cover their own weaknesses in time. With options that can't be dispelled or supressed. In short, I like most of this, but I'm wary of whether the graft ability doesn't cross over into over-powered unless an adventure is actually worked out with this class specifically in mind for every monster. It sounds like a villain only class, with his upgrades limited only to very few. And lastly... Is this 3.0 or 3.5? I only ask 'cause last I checked scry and Alchemy as actual skills is 3.0
cog_n_taz 06-16-07, 10:38 AM	If you could only find that little wrong with it, Khael, than I guess I've done a good job. I should probably not nerf nat. armor, but rather buff up nat. attack to match it. Also, I foresaw that the graft ability would be every player's joy and a headache for DMs, but I can't bring myself to build the entire PrC around avoiding metagaming. The Cha loss, however, stacks, giving them huge penalties in the end if they go too far, and you can always tack on wis penalties too. Also, there's the unspoken disadvantage that you're constantly greeted with torches and pitchforks. You are right about anatomy knowledge, I may have to whack that and replace all instances of it with heal, though it would be a shame. Also, anything that was a supernatural ability at first, it stays that way, so there are counters. Also, the DM can just say "no, That Doesn't Work", and they will be within their bounds, so long as they explain that they will do that sometimes when they introduce the PrC. I agree that graft can become broken, and I probably will add a cost, but it's easy enough for the DM to stop it. You could also make it so that it grants a supernatural/extraordinary ability (possibly feats like awesome blow as bonus feats) if it makes things easier.
cog_n_taz 06-16-07, 10:44 AM	Oh, and it's 3.0 (since that's what I play), but can be very easily switched to 3.5, no trouble at all there. Also, how about I make activated graft abilities 1/day? For instance, the bodak gaze you mentioned would become a 1/day supernatural ability for the FW.
Khael 06-16-07, 10:52 AM	The thing with graft though is not everything can be countered with 'no', without sounding bad - LM and LoM for two has lists of grafts ranging from supernatural abilities to mundane stats buffs. To refuse any of them in effect removes the most basic idea of grafts- the RAW ones. Then theres the really abusive stuff - find a dragon, and kill it. Replace your muscles with its, and lay in some scaly fun. Sure you've lost 4 CHA , but you got a big nat AC bonus, possibly with no ASF% as you simply had to choose not to stitch up to the hands, and a huge strength mod - dragons are known for immense strength, and you just picked up its muscles. But in end the CHA and mob problems simply end up still with a sense of 'you can be BBEG and use this class to the full, or you can be a PC and be either screwed out of an iconic feature, or be worse than a fighter in a social situation but near unstoppable using a little logic.' For antomy however, My own choice would be this compromise: they can gain it as a class skill, not PreReq, and maybe add a class level to their anatomy skill. I said it didn't work really for a PreReq. It does work like nothing else for a class skill. Or maybe profession: surgeon, as skill and PreReq. Then you have a use - gp when not adventurering.
cog_n_taz 06-16-07, 10:55 AM	Yes to everything in the last sentence, good ideas there. Other than trusting your players not to be abusive (my solution) , though, have you got any suggestions for how to keep it in check?
Khael 06-16-07, 11:06 AM	Use official grafts (Or ones you make up yourself), without costs(?) only. Those tend to be at least less prone to weirdness or abusiveness, since they give the odd +2-+4 bonus or a 1/once a day useful power/multiple flavourful one. It involves a little more actual work to make custom ones but can be controlled, and you don't have to deal with valid, logical but bad-game grafts. Then skill checks would be needed to create the graft over the course of X days, rather than the limit on 'what you fight is what you get', which is pointless if they end up facing orc or humans. This probably cuts out some of the feel you wanted,but short of a good mix of DM/player trust and the odd bad logic, but good for game ruling, might work as balanced. It's not as if you can't call Kensai as prescendent that way.
cog_n_taz 06-18-07, 10:10 AM	((Removed))
zzo38 06-18-07, 10:36 AM	About the table formatting, you used wide Unicode text in some places, why is that? If some key on the keyboard does that it may be a Far East keyboard layout, possibly. But this table is messed up even if the text is converted to MS Gothic to make the narrow text half the size of the wide text. I also noticed you used too many tabs, which can be different on different computers. Those are a few of the problems with the formatting. Mordainian fleshweaver - class features Hit dice: d4 Class skills：Alchemy, concentration, craft, heal, knowledge, profession, scry, speak language, spellcraft. Skill points: (2+int mod) per level BAB: Poor Fortitude: Poor Reflex: Poor Will: Good Magic: Arcane caster level +1 at each level Special: 1: Natural attack 1d4 2: Natural armor +1, graft 1 3: Natural attack 1d6 4: Natural armor +2, graft 2 5: Madness? Medicine!, natural attack 1d8 6: Natural armour+3, graft3 7: Flip the third switch, natural attack 1d10 8: Natural armour+4, graft4 9: Natural attack 1d12 10: Natural armour+5, graft 5, the miracle of medicine
cog_n_taz 06-18-07, 11:03 AM	Thanks a lot for the help, zzo. It's funny you should mention it, really, but I do have a Japanese keyboard, though I wasn't aware of pressing any big red button. So...umm...what are tabs? Do you mean firefox tabs?
cog_n_taz 06-18-07, 06:47 PM	((Removed))
cog_n_taz 06-18-07, 07:34 PM	((Removed))
cog_n_taz 06-19-07, 06:22 AM	((Removed))
Khael 06-19-07, 03:57 PM	I like some of these, if its any help, though I don't believe I can really judge whether or not these are fully balanced, without giving them a real playtest. At a glance though, they work, and don't look like it'll disrupt things badly. I do still believe that with all the extra abilities, full casting is too much, and dropping it to 9 or 8/10ths casting would be more balanced. But again testing really.
cog_n_taz 06-20-07, 03:57 AM	Thanks, any good ones in particular? And I agree, full casting is a bit much, I'll lower it down to 8 levels. Oh, and would adding an (expensive) ability to remove a graft to free up space be overpowered? Other than that, I'll finish off the graft list (which will be large, believe you me.) and get to fluff. After all of the above is done, the class will be complete, unless someone finds more problems with it.
cog_n_taz 06-21-07, 08:39 PM	Added remove graft, changed table (thanks again zzo!), changed graft, and removed spell progression at 3rd and 8th level, enjoy!
cog_n_taz 06-22-07, 05:50 AM	((Removed))
cog_n_taz 06-22-07, 06:13 AM	Fluff added, the PrC is now complete, enjoy!