Dragon Ascendant : kobold with dragonwrought feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon Ascendant : kobold with dragonwrought feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Slad Chaos
09-25-07, 07:09 AM Hello, can a kobold with the dragonwrought feat qualify (and the catergory ages for the kobold p.40 from the Races of the dragon) or not for the "true dragon" requirement from dragon ascendant or not ?

Thanks for your future answer.
The_Shaman
09-25-07, 07:16 AM I don't have RoD at the moment, but doesn't the dragonwrought template only give the Dragon type, and not the True Dragon one? Because iirc there's no problem with the d-wrought kobold becoming, say, a bloodscaled fury (only requires you to be a dragon and have frightful presence - gained from a feat), but dragon ascendant might be a bit too much.
Slad Chaos
09-25-07, 07:27 AM the definition for the true dragon is a dragon with category age, no ?
The_Shaman
09-25-07, 08:35 AM I think not. Most mentions in the Draconomicon speak of a true dragon's typical anatomy etc. For example, all true dragons possess a draconic fundamentum, are immune to at least one energy type, develop damage and spell reductions as they age, etc. Therefore, I presume that "True Dragon" refers to all dragons, as opposed to all creatures with the dragon type (iirc refered to in the book as lesser dragons). Furthermore, the draconomicon actually lists the true dragons and lesser dragons. I think the dragonwrought template would only give you the dragon type and thus you'd qualify as a "lesser" dragon.
Slad Chaos
09-25-07, 09:30 AM But the kobolds has the category age.
runestar
09-25-07, 09:54 AM Is there an actual definition of what qualifies as a true dragon?

Kobolds can technically take epic feats at old age even if they have less than 21 class lvs because draconomicon states that dragons of old age or more can take epic feats, and dragonwrought kobolds technically are dragons with age categories.

However, this may not necessarily be sufficient to declare that they count as true dragons as a result, since aforementioned provision merely states "dragons of old age", and not "true dragons of old age".
The_Shaman
09-25-07, 03:30 PM But the kobolds has the category age.

I don't think that's enough, sorry. Why do you think that being a true dragon requires ONLY being of the dragon subtype and having age categories? I haven't found an actual line which goes "A true dragon is a so-and-so" but all the references to true dragons in Draconomicon point only to real dragons - blue, brass, crystal, Lung, etc. All these have stages in their life - actually much more than dragonwrought kobolds iirc - but also have different physique and abilities than kobolds imo.

Besides, I don't know how a kobold will have a BAB of +30, as iirc BAB does not increase with epic levels, but I think the "True Dragon" line was meant to keep all draconic creatures out.
Slad Chaos
09-25-07, 05:07 PM p.4 from Draconomicon :
True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older.
...
Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons.
...

I didn't found other information about the definition for a true dragon.

If someone saw this information in a book, can you indicate me, please ?
runestar
09-25-07, 08:01 PM Besides, I don't know how a kobold will have a BAB of +30, as iirc BAB does not increase with epic levels, but I think the "True Dragon" line was meant to keep all draconic creatures out.

No, but your epic bab will stack with your normal bab for purposes of calculating prereqs and the like.

So a kobold fighter40 would have the equivalent of bab+30, for example (bab+20, +10 ebab).
Paradox_of_Life
09-26-07, 04:24 AM Dragon, True

The known varieties of true dragons (as opposed to other creatures that have the dragon type) fall into two broad categories: chromatic and metallic. The chromatic dragons are black, blue, green, red, and white; they are all evil and extremely fierce. The metallic dragons are brass, bronze, copper, gold, and silver; they are all good, usually noble, and highly respected by the wise.

All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age. (Other creatures that have the dragon type do not.) They range in length from several feet upon hatching to more than 100 feet after attaining the status of great wyrm. The size of a particular dragon varies according to age and variety.

I think this means that only blue,black,silver,ect.. only are considered true dragons.
Slad Chaos
09-26-07, 07:03 AM The shadow dragon, and other dragons are true dragon but they are not chromatic or metallic.
The_Shaman
09-26-07, 07:54 AM This is why draconomicon expanded the list. SRD only had those dragons that are in the first MM.

Seriously, is that a big problem?
Slad Chaos
09-26-07, 08:53 AM Races of the dragon published after draconomicon also.
The_Shaman
09-26-07, 09:24 AM Ok, you can ask Custserv or others, but I don't think it's right. Conceptwise, I think the distinction was made to separate dragons - you know, the real deal - from all those dragonettes, pseudodragons, dragon turtles, and all those halfbreeds. Even with a feat denoting stronger draconic ancestry or link, kobolds are imo not supposed to be on the list. The Draconomicon has several additional comments about draconic biology: true dragons have a certain number of vertebrae, endothermic, have a lifespan of over 2000 years (naturally), elemental nature and immunities, etc.

To boot, the PrC doesn't make sense for kobolds. If anything, the Ascendant is the quintessential dragon, the one whose nature is even more strongly pronounced than that of his/her peers. A kobold reaching this peak is, even if it were mechanically possible, conceptually wrong.
bkdubs123
09-27-07, 05:51 PM p.4 from Draconomicon :

I didn't found other information about the definition for a true dragon.

If someone saw this information in a book, can you indicate me, please ?

I don't know a whole lot about Kobolds but do they necessarily get more powerful as they grow older? I mean like other, actual dragons do? You could perhaps argue somehow that gaining wisdom and intelligence while losing strength and dexterity means getting more powerful, but then a Human counts as a True Dragon under that definition.

So, as a Kobold advances in age do they gain Natural Armor bonuses? DR? SR? Spell-Like Abilities? Anything else that might be relevant other than modifiers to ability scores? If the answer is no, then by your own definition Kobolds cannot count as "True Dragons." If the answer is yes, then we have something to go on.
runestar
09-27-07, 11:06 PM Well, dragonwrought kobolds do not suffer the drawbacks of aging (but they still get the benefits). This amounts to it eventually getting a free +3 to all mental stats. Does that suffice?:P
bkdubs123
09-28-07, 04:09 AM I'm going to go ahead and say... no. And since I can assume Runestar by not pointing anything out about the Kobold getting anything other than modifiers to ability scores (just like everyone else) that the Kobold doesn't fit in the category of "creatures who grow more powerful as they advance in age categories" group, thus leaving them out of the "True Dragons" group by the same token.
runestar
09-28-07, 08:07 AM that the Kobold doesn't fit in the category of "creatures who grow more powerful as they advance in age categories" group

Just curious, what would this entail? :P

It is an extremely broad and open-ended provision which really leaves a lot of room for interpretation, IMO.:D
Teh_username
09-29-07, 11:11 PM Just curious, what would this entail? :P
A DM with a severe learning disability.

It is an extremely broad and open-ended provision which really leaves a lot of room for interpretation, IMO.:D
No, it's a case where one book introduced a delightfully flavourful way of categorising a dracophilic race, that was poorly-worded if you take into account one line out of a 288-page book written three years prior.
bkdubs123
09-29-07, 11:48 PM Just curious, what would this entail? :P

It is an extremely broad and open-ended provision which really leaves a lot of room for interpretation, IMO.:D

Did you read my posts? The Kobold gains nothing more than any other run of the mill race gains as it gains levels. Therefore it doesn't belong to any "True Dragons" category as it doesn't "become more powerful as advances age categories" as all True Dragons do (through gaining increases to Natural Armor, Caster level, Size and thereby natural weapon damage, and gaining Spells and/or Spell-like abilities).
runestar
09-29-07, 11:53 PM Did you read my posts? The Kobold gains nothing more than any other run of the mill race gains as it gains levels. Therefore it doesn't belong to any "True Dragons" category as it doesn't "become more powerful as advances age categories" as all True Dragons do (through gaining increases to Natural Armor, Caster level, Size and thereby natural weapon damage, and gaining Spells and/or Spell-like abilities).

I did, but if I want to get all technical, nowhere is it stated that becoming more powerful entails getting more NA, better stats, higher lv spells etc.

The dragonwrought kobold ends up with a free +3 to all mental stats without any drawbacks. That could be construed as "more powerful", over and above other races, who do in fact suffer from the physical stat penalties, and thus cannot be said to be "truly more powerful, since they are merely accruing a bonus at the expense of a penalty somewhere else.:D
Teh_username
09-29-07, 11:59 PM That could be construed as "more powerful", over and above other races, who do in fact suffer from the physical stat penalties, and thus cannot be said to be "truly more powerful, since they are merely accruing a bonus at the expense of a penalty somewhere else.:D
Similarly, the lack of rules for defecation/urinating in the PHB could be construed as "D&D characters have no digestive system, and in fact are all without any definition below the waist".

Both examples are about as close to the spirit of the texts referenced, and both have equal chances of getting by a DM worth his abbreviated title.
bkdubs123
09-30-07, 12:05 AM From a feat. What if I played a Sorcerer with tons of Dragonblooded feats, I suddenly get Baleful Polymorphed into a Kobold, take Dragonwrought Kobold at my next chance and then what, I level up. I'm getting more powerful as I advance through age categories am I not? Am I suddenly a True Dragon? No.

Why don't we make it simple here. A True Dragon is a Dragon. Not a Kobold. Not a human polymorphed with some feats. A Dragon. A creature that was born as a Dragon. With the Dragon type inherent to their birth, not something picked up at 1st level.
Slad Chaos
10-10-07, 04:59 PM From here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)
Kobold Ritual

The Draconic Rite of Passage (see page 43 of Races of the Dragon) is a ritual that grants any kobold who completes the rite a 1st-level sorcerer spell-like ability of their choice, usable once per day. To recharge this ability, a kobold must complete the Searching for the Dragon meditation each day, which equates to same amount of time a sorcerer must spend concentrating to replenish their spells. The following ritual (and associated feat) are extensions of the Draconic Rite of Passage.

Greater Draconic Rite of Passage

The Greater Draconic Rite of Passage is a powerful ritual handed down from dragons to kobolds as a reward for their undying loyalty. In the same way that chromatic and metallic dragons gain integrated levels of sorcerer spellcasting as they age, this ritual allows kobolds to awaken a small amount of their own arcane might.

Prerequisites: Only kobolds of 6 Hit Dice or more, sorcerer level 1st, who have successfully completed the Draconic Rite of Passage, and taken Draconic Reservoir (1) can undergo the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. A kobold requires no one else to perform the rite; it is a solitary activity.

(1) See below for feat description.

Benefit: Upon completing this rite, a kobold gains new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if also gaining one level in the sorcerer class. The kobold does not, however, gain any other benefit a sorcerer would have gained (familiar abilities, and so on).

The benefit of this ritual is automatically factored into the 15 minutes that a kobold sorcerer spends concentrating to ready their daily allotment of spells. No kobold can benefit from this rite more than once.

Time: A kobold who undergoes this rite must first endure nine days of fasting (the equivalent of three days for a kobold in a region above 40 degrees F). Immediately thereafter, the kobold must succeed on a DC 20 Concentration check to enter a deep trance that lasts for 24 hours. If the check fails, the rite must begin a new.

Cost: This rite requires sacrificing a gem of at least 1,000 gp in value. The kobold also permanently loses 3 hit points upon completion of the rite, the price of unlocking latent draconic energy within their soul.

Kobold Feat

This feat lets kobolds increase the number of daily castings for their Draconic Rite of Passage spell-like ability (see page 43 of Races of the Dragon). It is also a prerequisite for the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (see above for description).

Draconic Reservoir

You can cast your Draconic Rite of Passage spell-like ability more often than normal.

Prerequisite: Kobold, must have completed the Draconic Rite of Passage, 3 HD.

Benefit: You can cast your 1st-level sorcerer spell-like ability gained from Draconic Rite of Passage 3/day. A kobold must complete the Searching for the Dragon meditation in order to recharge their spell-like ability, but does not have to increase the 15 minute duration for the additional castings.

Normal: The spell-like ability gained from Draconic Rite of Passage can only be cast 1/day.

a kobold gains new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if also gaining one level in the sorcerer class.
Did a kobold consider as a sorcerer 2nd level ?
p9522935
11-01-07, 06:12 AM The old "cheesewrought" thread seems to have vanished,

Edit:
Hmm, the archive at
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-589408
seems to be working now, I had thought it was broken

... so I'll mention it here: suppose your DM allowed you to do a venerable dragonwrought kobold and allowed you to take an Epic Feat at 3rd level.

For the life of me, I can't see many Epic Feats that would make a big difference. Most of them require 21 ranks of knowledge, and a 3rd level character doesn't have that. He could get +1 to a stat, but that's about the only epic feat that he qualifies for.

The Cheesewrought thread seems to be discussing what happens far after 3rd level. I do like their idea for a 6th level necropolitan, though.

I think the Improved Spell Casting feat can't kick in until considerably higher levels, but I should research that, when time permits, i.e. not this week, not next week.
Cainin
11-01-07, 08:59 AM If you're going that route, just take Epic Toughness. Per the DMG I (3.5), it now grants +30 HP per each time taken. Not too shabby for a low level Sorc.
bkdubs123
11-01-07, 03:26 PM A 20th level Monk also does not accrue penalties due to aging but does gain all the benefits - AMAZING! HE MUST BE A TRUE DRAGON! No. There is OBVIOUSLY more to it than that. Just because it hasn't been specifically stated out, doesn't mean that you can infer petty ability score increases as True-Dragonship. Dragons get bigger, better, tougher, smarter, and gain mastery over the arcane arts naturally. Not through some ritual, not through some feat, not even through class levels. Kobolds can't make a claim to do any of that.

(Those rituals are pretty awesome though!)
Suspect_Unusual
11-01-07, 03:50 PM A 20th level Monk also does not accrue penalties due to aging but does gain all the benefits - AMAZING! HE MUST BE A TRUE DRAGON! No. There is OBVIOUSLY more to it than that. Just because it hasn't been specifically stated out, doesn't mean that you can infer petty ability score increases as True-Dragonship. Dragons get bigger, better, tougher, smarter, and gain mastery over the arcane arts naturally. Not through some ritual, not through some feat, not even through class levels. Kobolds can't make a claim to do any of that.

(Those rituals are pretty awesome though!)

I love how someone can shoot down another's opinion on an obviously vaguely worded statement as being wrong because there is "obviously more than that" and then assert the true nature of True Dragons when there is no text to support it as such definitionally (No, "typical" True Dragon traits don't count - a Dragonwraught qualifying as a True Dragon seems like the epitomy of a non-typical member of such a group, IF it qualifies for that group, which it arguably does under one [but not all, obviously] of the many reasonable interpretations of the text provided).

Side note: The most objectionable ability of the Dragonwraught feat, utilizing the ability to gain Epic feats at 3rd level, does not (if i remember correctly) differentiate between true and lesser dragons, so long as they have the dragon type.

But seriously, is it really that abusable for a 40th level (minimum) Dragonwraught kobold have access to the Dragon Ascendant PrC? We're talking having a bab of 20 at 20th level to qualify by 41st level, which means you needed to have taken a full bab class every level Pre-epic... you've lost probably quite a few caster levels, then, which leaves you somewhat unoptimal in Epic Play anyway, neh?

If you really have problems with a 52nd level character being a semi-divine being, I'd be worried about a lot more than Dragonwraught kobolds.
bkdubs123
11-01-07, 04:29 PM Here is my argument (as presented countless times already in this thread *sigh*): Dragons age and get better. That's all they need to do. They get tons of cool stuff like Spells, Improved Racial Abilities, Increased Natural Armor, etc JUST BY AGING. Kobolds age and get ability score adjustments - JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME. In order for a Kobold to get any added benefit they have to take class levels and feats. Dragons, True Dragons that is, do not have to take any feats or any class levels to improve their draconic abilities (Spells, Breath Weapon, etc).

I don't have a problem mechanically with a Kobold Dragon Ascendant. I'm not worried about it shattering the balance of the game. The problem is thematic. A Kobold is not a True Dragon, therefor if the class requires a True Dragon to enter then a Kobold cannot enter.
p9522935
11-03-07, 10:27 AM If you're going that route, just take Epic Toughness. Per the DMG I (3.5), it now grants +30 HP per each time taken. Not too shabby for a low level Sorc.

That's definitely going on the shortlist.

Thanks for the tip.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Slad Chaos 09-25-07, 07:09 AM	Hello, can a kobold with the dragonwrought feat qualify (and the catergory ages for the kobold p.40 from the Races of the dragon) or not for the "true dragon" requirement from dragon ascendant or not ? Thanks for your future answer.
The_Shaman 09-25-07, 07:16 AM	I don't have RoD at the moment, but doesn't the dragonwrought template only give the Dragon type, and not the True Dragon one? Because iirc there's no problem with the d-wrought kobold becoming, say, a bloodscaled fury (only requires you to be a dragon and have frightful presence - gained from a feat), but dragon ascendant might be a bit too much.
Slad Chaos 09-25-07, 07:27 AM	the definition for the true dragon is a dragon with category age, no ?
The_Shaman 09-25-07, 08:35 AM	I think not. Most mentions in the Draconomicon speak of a true dragon's typical anatomy etc. For example, all true dragons possess a draconic fundamentum, are immune to at least one energy type, develop damage and spell reductions as they age, etc. Therefore, I presume that "True Dragon" refers to all dragons, as opposed to all creatures with the dragon type (iirc refered to in the book as lesser dragons). Furthermore, the draconomicon actually lists the true dragons and lesser dragons. I think the dragonwrought template would only give you the dragon type and thus you'd qualify as a "lesser" dragon.
Slad Chaos 09-25-07, 09:30 AM	But the kobolds has the category age.
runestar 09-25-07, 09:54 AM	Is there an actual definition of what qualifies as a true dragon? Kobolds can technically take epic feats at old age even if they have less than 21 class lvs because draconomicon states that dragons of old age or more can take epic feats, and dragonwrought kobolds technically are dragons with age categories. However, this may not necessarily be sufficient to declare that they count as true dragons as a result, since aforementioned provision merely states "dragons of old age", and not "true dragons of old age".
The_Shaman 09-25-07, 03:30 PM	But the kobolds has the category age. I don't think that's enough, sorry. Why do you think that being a true dragon requires ONLY being of the dragon subtype and having age categories? I haven't found an actual line which goes "A true dragon is a so-and-so" but all the references to true dragons in Draconomicon point only to real dragons - blue, brass, crystal, Lung, etc. All these have stages in their life - actually much more than dragonwrought kobolds iirc - but also have different physique and abilities than kobolds imo. Besides, I don't know how a kobold will have a BAB of +30, as iirc BAB does not increase with epic levels, but I think the "True Dragon" line was meant to keep all draconic creatures out.
Slad Chaos 09-25-07, 05:07 PM	p.4 from Draconomicon : True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older. ... Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons. ... I didn't found other information about the definition for a true dragon. If someone saw this information in a book, can you indicate me, please ?
runestar 09-25-07, 08:01 PM	Besides, I don't know how a kobold will have a BAB of +30, as iirc BAB does not increase with epic levels, but I think the "True Dragon" line was meant to keep all draconic creatures out. No, but your epic bab will stack with your normal bab for purposes of calculating prereqs and the like. So a kobold fighter40 would have the equivalent of bab+30, for example (bab+20, +10 ebab).
Paradox_of_Life 09-26-07, 04:24 AM	Dragon, True The known varieties of true dragons (as opposed to other creatures that have the dragon type) fall into two broad categories: chromatic and metallic. The chromatic dragons are black, blue, green, red, and white; they are all evil and extremely fierce. The metallic dragons are brass, bronze, copper, gold, and silver; they are all good, usually noble, and highly respected by the wise. All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age. (Other creatures that have the dragon type do not.) They range in length from several feet upon hatching to more than 100 feet after attaining the status of great wyrm. The size of a particular dragon varies according to age and variety. I think this means that only blue,black,silver,ect.. only are considered true dragons.
Slad Chaos 09-26-07, 07:03 AM	The shadow dragon, and other dragons are true dragon but they are not chromatic or metallic.
The_Shaman 09-26-07, 07:54 AM	This is why draconomicon expanded the list. SRD only had those dragons that are in the first MM. Seriously, is that a big problem?
Slad Chaos 09-26-07, 08:53 AM	Races of the dragon published after draconomicon also.
The_Shaman 09-26-07, 09:24 AM	Ok, you can ask Custserv or others, but I don't think it's right. Conceptwise, I think the distinction was made to separate dragons - you know, the real deal - from all those dragonettes, pseudodragons, dragon turtles, and all those halfbreeds. Even with a feat denoting stronger draconic ancestry or link, kobolds are imo not supposed to be on the list. The Draconomicon has several additional comments about draconic biology: true dragons have a certain number of vertebrae, endothermic, have a lifespan of over 2000 years (naturally), elemental nature and immunities, etc. To boot, the PrC doesn't make sense for kobolds. If anything, the Ascendant is the quintessential dragon, the one whose nature is even more strongly pronounced than that of his/her peers. A kobold reaching this peak is, even if it were mechanically possible, conceptually wrong.
bkdubs123 09-27-07, 05:51 PM	p.4 from Draconomicon : I didn't found other information about the definition for a true dragon. If someone saw this information in a book, can you indicate me, please ? I don't know a whole lot about Kobolds but do they necessarily get more powerful as they grow older? I mean like other, actual dragons do? You could perhaps argue somehow that gaining wisdom and intelligence while losing strength and dexterity means getting more powerful, but then a Human counts as a True Dragon under that definition. So, as a Kobold advances in age do they gain Natural Armor bonuses? DR? SR? Spell-Like Abilities? Anything else that might be relevant other than modifiers to ability scores? If the answer is no, then by your own definition Kobolds cannot count as "True Dragons." If the answer is yes, then we have something to go on.
runestar 09-27-07, 11:06 PM	Well, dragonwrought kobolds do not suffer the drawbacks of aging (but they still get the benefits). This amounts to it eventually getting a free +3 to all mental stats. Does that suffice?:P
bkdubs123 09-28-07, 04:09 AM	I'm going to go ahead and say... no. And since I can assume Runestar by not pointing anything out about the Kobold getting anything other than modifiers to ability scores (just like everyone else) that the Kobold doesn't fit in the category of "creatures who grow more powerful as they advance in age categories" group, thus leaving them out of the "True Dragons" group by the same token.
runestar 09-28-07, 08:07 AM	that the Kobold doesn't fit in the category of "creatures who grow more powerful as they advance in age categories" group Just curious, what would this entail? :P It is an extremely broad and open-ended provision which really leaves a lot of room for interpretation, IMO.:D
Teh_username 09-29-07, 11:11 PM	Just curious, what would this entail? :P A DM with a severe learning disability. It is an extremely broad and open-ended provision which really leaves a lot of room for interpretation, IMO.:D No, it's a case where one book introduced a delightfully flavourful way of categorising a dracophilic race, that was poorly-worded if you take into account one line out of a 288-page book written three years prior.
bkdubs123 09-29-07, 11:48 PM	Just curious, what would this entail? :P It is an extremely broad and open-ended provision which really leaves a lot of room for interpretation, IMO.:D Did you read my posts? The Kobold gains nothing more than any other run of the mill race gains as it gains levels. Therefore it doesn't belong to any "True Dragons" category as it doesn't "become more powerful as advances age categories" as all True Dragons do (through gaining increases to Natural Armor, Caster level, Size and thereby natural weapon damage, and gaining Spells and/or Spell-like abilities).
runestar 09-29-07, 11:53 PM	Did you read my posts? The Kobold gains nothing more than any other run of the mill race gains as it gains levels. Therefore it doesn't belong to any "True Dragons" category as it doesn't "become more powerful as advances age categories" as all True Dragons do (through gaining increases to Natural Armor, Caster level, Size and thereby natural weapon damage, and gaining Spells and/or Spell-like abilities). I did, but if I want to get all technical, nowhere is it stated that becoming more powerful entails getting more NA, better stats, higher lv spells etc. The dragonwrought kobold ends up with a free +3 to all mental stats without any drawbacks. That could be construed as "more powerful", over and above other races, who do in fact suffer from the physical stat penalties, and thus cannot be said to be "truly more powerful, since they are merely accruing a bonus at the expense of a penalty somewhere else.:D
Teh_username 09-29-07, 11:59 PM	That could be construed as "more powerful", over and above other races, who do in fact suffer from the physical stat penalties, and thus cannot be said to be "truly more powerful, since they are merely accruing a bonus at the expense of a penalty somewhere else.:D Similarly, the lack of rules for defecation/urinating in the PHB could be construed as "D&D characters have no digestive system, and in fact are all without any definition below the waist". Both examples are about as close to the spirit of the texts referenced, and both have equal chances of getting by a DM worth his abbreviated title.
bkdubs123 09-30-07, 12:05 AM	From a feat. What if I played a Sorcerer with tons of Dragonblooded feats, I suddenly get Baleful Polymorphed into a Kobold, take Dragonwrought Kobold at my next chance and then what, I level up. I'm getting more powerful as I advance through age categories am I not? Am I suddenly a True Dragon? No. Why don't we make it simple here. A True Dragon is a Dragon. Not a Kobold. Not a human polymorphed with some feats. A Dragon. A creature that was born as a Dragon. With the Dragon type inherent to their birth, not something picked up at 1st level.
Slad Chaos 10-10-07, 04:59 PM	From here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) Kobold Ritual The Draconic Rite of Passage (see page 43 of Races of the Dragon) is a ritual that grants any kobold who completes the rite a 1st-level sorcerer spell-like ability of their choice, usable once per day. To recharge this ability, a kobold must complete the Searching for the Dragon meditation each day, which equates to same amount of time a sorcerer must spend concentrating to replenish their spells. The following ritual (and associated feat) are extensions of the Draconic Rite of Passage. Greater Draconic Rite of Passage The Greater Draconic Rite of Passage is a powerful ritual handed down from dragons to kobolds as a reward for their undying loyalty. In the same way that chromatic and metallic dragons gain integrated levels of sorcerer spellcasting as they age, this ritual allows kobolds to awaken a small amount of their own arcane might. Prerequisites: Only kobolds of 6 Hit Dice or more, sorcerer level 1st, who have successfully completed the Draconic Rite of Passage, and taken Draconic Reservoir (1) can undergo the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. A kobold requires no one else to perform the rite; it is a solitary activity. (1) See below for feat description. Benefit: Upon completing this rite, a kobold gains new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if also gaining one level in the sorcerer class. The kobold does not, however, gain any other benefit a sorcerer would have gained (familiar abilities, and so on). The benefit of this ritual is automatically factored into the 15 minutes that a kobold sorcerer spends concentrating to ready their daily allotment of spells. No kobold can benefit from this rite more than once. Time: A kobold who undergoes this rite must first endure nine days of fasting (the equivalent of three days for a kobold in a region above 40 degrees F). Immediately thereafter, the kobold must succeed on a DC 20 Concentration check to enter a deep trance that lasts for 24 hours. If the check fails, the rite must begin a new. Cost: This rite requires sacrificing a gem of at least 1,000 gp in value. The kobold also permanently loses 3 hit points upon completion of the rite, the price of unlocking latent draconic energy within their soul. Kobold Feat This feat lets kobolds increase the number of daily castings for their Draconic Rite of Passage spell-like ability (see page 43 of Races of the Dragon). It is also a prerequisite for the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (see above for description). Draconic Reservoir You can cast your Draconic Rite of Passage spell-like ability more often than normal. Prerequisite: Kobold, must have completed the Draconic Rite of Passage, 3 HD. Benefit: You can cast your 1st-level sorcerer spell-like ability gained from Draconic Rite of Passage 3/day. A kobold must complete the Searching for the Dragon meditation in order to recharge their spell-like ability, but does not have to increase the 15 minute duration for the additional castings. Normal: The spell-like ability gained from Draconic Rite of Passage can only be cast 1/day. a kobold gains new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if also gaining one level in the sorcerer class. Did a kobold consider as a sorcerer 2nd level ?
p9522935 11-01-07, 06:12 AM	The old "cheesewrought" thread seems to have vanished, Edit: Hmm, the archive at http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-589408 seems to be working now, I had thought it was broken ... so I'll mention it here: suppose your DM allowed you to do a venerable dragonwrought kobold and allowed you to take an Epic Feat at 3rd level. For the life of me, I can't see many Epic Feats that would make a big difference. Most of them require 21 ranks of knowledge, and a 3rd level character doesn't have that. He could get +1 to a stat, but that's about the only epic feat that he qualifies for. The Cheesewrought thread seems to be discussing what happens far after 3rd level. I do like their idea for a 6th level necropolitan, though. I think the Improved Spell Casting feat can't kick in until considerably higher levels, but I should research that, when time permits, i.e. not this week, not next week.
Cainin 11-01-07, 08:59 AM	If you're going that route, just take Epic Toughness. Per the DMG I (3.5), it now grants +30 HP per each time taken. Not too shabby for a low level Sorc.
bkdubs123 11-01-07, 03:26 PM	A 20th level Monk also does not accrue penalties due to aging but does gain all the benefits - AMAZING! HE MUST BE A TRUE DRAGON! No. There is OBVIOUSLY more to it than that. Just because it hasn't been specifically stated out, doesn't mean that you can infer petty ability score increases as True-Dragonship. Dragons get bigger, better, tougher, smarter, and gain mastery over the arcane arts naturally. Not through some ritual, not through some feat, not even through class levels. Kobolds can't make a claim to do any of that. (Those rituals are pretty awesome though!)
Suspect_Unusual 11-01-07, 03:50 PM	A 20th level Monk also does not accrue penalties due to aging but does gain all the benefits - AMAZING! HE MUST BE A TRUE DRAGON! No. There is OBVIOUSLY more to it than that. Just because it hasn't been specifically stated out, doesn't mean that you can infer petty ability score increases as True-Dragonship. Dragons get bigger, better, tougher, smarter, and gain mastery over the arcane arts naturally. Not through some ritual, not through some feat, not even through class levels. Kobolds can't make a claim to do any of that. (Those rituals are pretty awesome though!) I love how someone can shoot down another's opinion on an obviously vaguely worded statement as being wrong because there is "obviously more than that" and then assert the true nature of True Dragons when there is no text to support it as such definitionally (No, "typical" True Dragon traits don't count - a Dragonwraught qualifying as a True Dragon seems like the epitomy of a non-typical member of such a group, IF it qualifies for that group, which it arguably does under one [but not all, obviously] of the many reasonable interpretations of the text provided). Side note: The most objectionable ability of the Dragonwraught feat, utilizing the ability to gain Epic feats at 3rd level, does not (if i remember correctly) differentiate between true and lesser dragons, so long as they have the dragon type. But seriously, is it really that abusable for a 40th level (minimum) Dragonwraught kobold have access to the Dragon Ascendant PrC? We're talking having a bab of 20 at 20th level to qualify by 41st level, which means you needed to have taken a full bab class every level Pre-epic... you've lost probably quite a few caster levels, then, which leaves you somewhat unoptimal in Epic Play anyway, neh? If you really have problems with a 52nd level character being a semi-divine being, I'd be worried about a lot more than Dragonwraught kobolds.
bkdubs123 11-01-07, 04:29 PM	Here is my argument (as presented countless times already in this thread sigh): Dragons age and get better. That's all they need to do. They get tons of cool stuff like Spells, Improved Racial Abilities, Increased Natural Armor, etc JUST BY AGING. Kobolds age and get ability score adjustments - JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME. In order for a Kobold to get any added benefit they have to take class levels and feats. Dragons, True Dragons that is, do not have to take any feats or any class levels to improve their draconic abilities (Spells, Breath Weapon, etc). I don't have a problem mechanically with a Kobold Dragon Ascendant. I'm not worried about it shattering the balance of the game. The problem is thematic. A Kobold is not a True Dragon, therefor if the class requires a True Dragon to enter then a Kobold cannot enter.
p9522935 11-03-07, 10:27 AM	If you're going that route, just take Epic Toughness. Per the DMG I (3.5), it now grants +30 HP per each time taken. Not too shabby for a low level Sorc. That's definitely going on the shortlist. Thanks for the tip.