Dragon Disciple Assassin? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon Disciple Assassin? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DX2052
09-03-07, 02:20 PM Would such a thing work? Assassin gives the "Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation." and allow one to meet the requirements for Dragon Disciple. On the chance that it does work, is it decently powerful and is there a better build then Monk 5/Assassin 5/Dragon Disciple 10? and does such a build make the DD anything more then the 5th wheel (or 5th member) it is normaly?

P.S.
Does the dragon disciples ability boost class feature stack with the Half dragons abilty boast? in addition does the disciple gain a 2nd breath weapon (from the half dragon template) in addtion to the class feature?
Ecalsneerg
09-03-07, 02:23 PM Would such a thing work? Assassin gives the "Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation." and allow one to meet the requirements for Dragon Disciple.
I'm inclined to believe it does count, as nothing says you can't, nor even implies it.

P.S.
Does the dragon disciples ability boost class feature stack with the Half dragons abilty boast? in addition does the disciple gain a 2nd breath weapon (from the half dragon template) in addtion to the class feature?
You cannot be a Dragon (i.e. of the Dragon type, as a Half-Dragon is) and enter the Half-Dragon presetige class.

also: If it isn't a black Half-Dragon, it's not cool enough for Assassin :P
captianhowdy
09-03-07, 02:25 PM I dont see a reason why it the Assasin couldnt be used to qualify for Dragon Disciple.
And as for the Half-Dragon bonuses, from what i understand, at the 10th level when he finally becomes a half-dragon, it is in type only, as the ability boost and class skills have already givin him the benifits of the template
Nephlite
09-03-07, 02:28 PM Would such a thing work? Assassin gives the "Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation." and allow one to meet the requirements for Dragon Disciple. On the chance that it does work, is it decently powerful and is there a better build then Monk 5/Assassin 5/Dragon Disciple 10? and does such a build make the DD anything more then the 5th wheel (or 5th member) it is normaly?

P.S.
Does the dragon disciples ability boost class feature stack with the Half dragons abilty boast? in addition does the disciple gain a 2nd breath weapon (from the half dragon template) in addtion to the class feature?

Nope. Reread the class.
At level 10, you gain the benefits that the other 9 levels of DD didn't give you.
Namely: +2 Cha, +1 NA, and +4 Str. Plus Breath weapon stronger.
Everything else the class gives is equal to the template and +4 bonus spells too (they had to give some reason to take the class instead of template).
DX2052
09-03-07, 02:31 PM You cannot be a Dragon (i.e. of the Dragon type, as a Half-Dragon is) and enter the Half-Dragon presetige class.

I was refering to the half dragon template it aquired at level 10, not entering as one.
Jaxgaret
09-03-07, 04:46 PM Why do you want to build a Monk/Assassin/Dragon Disciple character?
DX2052
09-03-07, 05:39 PM Why do you want to build a Monk/Assassin/Dragon Disciple character?

don't exactly "want" to, just though it might be a possible way out of the "Dragon Disciple doesn't work for the Tank, the Skimisher, the Arcane Caster or the Devine caster and thus has no place in a standard 4 person party" rut.
Jaxgaret
09-03-07, 06:50 PM So you were attempting to make a useful skirmisher DD. A commendable undertaking.

A Monk/Dragon Descendant (found in Dragon Magic) could also fill the role as a skirmisher while retaining the draconic feel.
StevenO
09-03-07, 09:45 PM The Assassin's spell abilities definitely will fill the spellcasting requirement for the DragonD.

Now for actual builds I couldn't go for Monk5/Assassin5/DragonD10. That is only a +13 BAB at 20th level for a character who may want to be taking multiple attacks each turn that have associated penalties. There may be ways to make it work but I'd generally look at something a little different.

For ability boosts the DragonD does NOT get to stack all the Half-Dragon template bonuses onto what it already has at 10th level. At DD10 the character effectively receives the rest ofthe Half-Dragon template effectively making it a 7 level PrC (look up my Monstrous Disciple) with the Half-Dragon template.

I disagree with the statement that the DragonD can't be a party's tank any less than a barbarian or fighter could be. You want to enter DD losing as few points of BAB as possible (preferably Duskblade) and will want to concentrate on you melee ability to take advantage of the +8 Str you'll get. DD may only grant +7 BAB but that can leave you with a +17 at 20th level with an additional +4 Str modifier from DD to add to many of your attacks. If looking to actually improve your spellcasting you'd probably want some levels of Abjurant Champ.

Here is a "caster friendly" build for the DD: Warrior*1/Battle Sorcerer 4/ Dragon Disciple 10/ Abjurant Champ 5. Warrior is the fighting class of your choice and Battle Sorcerer is in the UA and SRD, to maximize your bonus spell slots from DD you'd enter AbC after DD 2 and advance your spellcasting to BS 9 giving you 4th level spells. At 20th level you BAB is +16, and you cast spells as a 9th level battle sorcerer and have 2 extra 2nd level slots and 5 extra 4th level slots.

If looking for a skirmish/assassin type I'd maybe try this: Barbarian3/Ranger3/Assassin4/DD10. That gets you a +16 BAB, Improved uncanny dodge (Barb+Assassin), and a barbarian's fast movement. Maybe there was something else in Assassin 5 you wanted besides the next +1d6 SA. Although alignment issues and multiclassing could be problems you may also try Barbarian2/Ranger1/Monk4/Assassin3/DD10.
DX2052
09-03-07, 09:54 PM Thanks for the advice.
Jaxgaret
09-04-07, 12:03 AM I disagree with the statement that the DragonD can't be a party's tank any less than a barbarian or fighter could be.

Being the party's tank is really the only suitable role for the DD - but it's not overly good at it.

A vanilla Fighter2/Barbarian18 will likely fulfill the tank role better than pretty much any DD build. And that's without any PrCs or heavy multiclassing.

Don't get me wrong - I like DDs, and have enjoyed playing one.
ninjarabbit
09-04-07, 11:10 AM Your best bet for a DD is probably duskblade5/abjurantchampion5/DD10: 17 BAB and 3rd level spells with a 17 CL thanks to abjurant champion
Orchomenos
09-04-07, 11:51 AM Though a monk/Dragon Disciple would have many attacks each round. In addition of the flurry of blow, you can add the bite and one claw (or both claw, depending on your understanding of the rule ;)).
That doesn't make a great skirmisher, since it forces you to stay in melee with your foe. But if each one of these attacks is a sneak attack (thanks to the Assassin PrC), that could be a really fun build to play.
Jaxgaret
09-04-07, 01:43 PM Though a monk/Dragon Disciple would have many attacks each round. In addition of the flurry of blow, you can add the bite and one claw (or both claw, depending on your understanding of the rule).

A character can with a full attack take both Claw attacks, the Bite attack, and its full attack progression of Unarmed Strikes (which can be made with any part of the body, not just the fists).

What's to understand? Anything else is a houserule.
ninjarabbit
09-04-07, 02:02 PM You might get a ton of attacks from a monk/assassin/DD but you be missing with most of them thanks to your pathetic BAB.
StevenO
09-04-07, 02:12 PM Though a monk/Dragon Disciple would have many attacks each round. In addition of the flurry of blow, you can add the bite and one claw (or both claw, depending on your understanding of the rule ;)).
That doesn't make a great skirmisher, since it forces you to stay in melee with your foe. But if each one of these attacks is a sneak attack (thanks to the Assassin PrC), that could be a really fun build to play.
Provided you are using your monk's unarmed attack you certainly can add a bite and two claw attacks to your furry. You take -5 to your attack for these extra natural attacks and I believe you'd also take the -2 if you furry but they are still three extra attack.

I don't know that a Ftr2/Barb18 will always "tank" better than any DD build. You definitely get a small (+3) BAB increase which is good but the DD's strength increase is still more than the barbarian and would stack with rage from a barbarian-disciple. You also can't discount the +4 natural armor that can still be enhanced with amulet's of natural armor. Always having that extra bite attack makes wielding a reach weapon a little simpler as well although some talk about threatening with armor spikes.

I'll agree that Duskblade 5 isn't a bad way to enter Dragon Disciple but tacking on Abjurant Champ for the Duskblade isn't exactly needed. Sure setting your caster level to your BAB is nice and you'd average one more hp for those levels but you would miss out of a few duskblade features. Duskblade to AbC also has a problem with the required Abjuration spell because unless I'm missing something the DB lowest level abjuration would be a 3rd level spell which means DB 9 so that doesn't work so well. Besides using the spellcasting DragonD build I suggested earlier will still have a +16 BAB and spells per day of 5/5/7/5/8 although you still wouldn't know a ton of spells.
ninjarabbit
09-04-07, 02:39 PM Duskblades do get resist energy as a 1st level spell so that meets the abjuration requirement.
Jaxgaret
09-04-07, 05:55 PM Duskblades do get resist energy as a 1st level spell so that meets the abjuration requirement.

And Lesser Deflect as a 1st level Abjuration as well.
StevenO
09-04-07, 09:04 PM Duskblades do get resist energy as a 1st level spell so that meets the abjuration requirement.

And Lesser Deflect as a 1st level Abjuration as well.

So that is what I get for not having the Spell Compendium and missing one spell. At least I was looking at the right page instead of being one who asks why the Duskblade has so few spell (listed in the back of the book which is what I found.)

So it is possible to enter AbC at 6th level with a Duskblade. I still don't know that AbC is a great move although it doesn't hurt much either. Comparing DB spells Known 2+Int/5/4/2 per day 6/7/6/2+7DD vs the BS known 7/4/3/2/1 per day 5/5/5+2/5/3+5 are the extra 1st and 2nd level known by the DB worth more than the 4th level spell the BS would get not to mention the greater freedom the BS has in selecting spells. Actual spells per day is pretty even in the lower levels but the Battle Sorcerer going into DragonD would have so many more 3rd and 4th level slots that the DB.
Jaxgaret
09-04-07, 11:31 PM So that is what I get for not having the Spell Compendium and missing one spell.

Are you talking about Lesser Deflect? It's in the PHBII, the same book as the Duskblade.

It's under Deflect, Lesser.
StevenO
09-04-07, 11:53 PM Don't I get ANY credit for at least finding the Duskblade's spell list? I guess I saw * on Lesser Deflect and the note on the Spell Compendium and put the two together when they should not have been. I think that happens to us all from time to time.
Jaxgaret
09-04-07, 11:55 PM Don't I get ANY credit for at least finding the Duskblade's spell list?

:) Sure, here you go: :twocents:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DX2052 09-03-07, 02:20 PM	Would such a thing work? Assassin gives the "Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation." and allow one to meet the requirements for Dragon Disciple. On the chance that it does work, is it decently powerful and is there a better build then Monk 5/Assassin 5/Dragon Disciple 10? and does such a build make the DD anything more then the 5th wheel (or 5th member) it is normaly? P.S. Does the dragon disciples ability boost class feature stack with the Half dragons abilty boast? in addition does the disciple gain a 2nd breath weapon (from the half dragon template) in addtion to the class feature?
Ecalsneerg 09-03-07, 02:23 PM	Would such a thing work? Assassin gives the "Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation." and allow one to meet the requirements for Dragon Disciple. I'm inclined to believe it does count, as nothing says you can't, nor even implies it. P.S. Does the dragon disciples ability boost class feature stack with the Half dragons abilty boast? in addition does the disciple gain a 2nd breath weapon (from the half dragon template) in addtion to the class feature? You cannot be a Dragon (i.e. of the Dragon type, as a Half-Dragon is) and enter the Half-Dragon presetige class. also: If it isn't a black Half-Dragon, it's not cool enough for Assassin :P
captianhowdy 09-03-07, 02:25 PM	I dont see a reason why it the Assasin couldnt be used to qualify for Dragon Disciple. And as for the Half-Dragon bonuses, from what i understand, at the 10th level when he finally becomes a half-dragon, it is in type only, as the ability boost and class skills have already givin him the benifits of the template
Nephlite 09-03-07, 02:28 PM	Would such a thing work? Assassin gives the "Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation." and allow one to meet the requirements for Dragon Disciple. On the chance that it does work, is it decently powerful and is there a better build then Monk 5/Assassin 5/Dragon Disciple 10? and does such a build make the DD anything more then the 5th wheel (or 5th member) it is normaly? P.S. Does the dragon disciples ability boost class feature stack with the Half dragons abilty boast? in addition does the disciple gain a 2nd breath weapon (from the half dragon template) in addtion to the class feature? Nope. Reread the class. At level 10, you gain the benefits that the other 9 levels of DD didn't give you. Namely: +2 Cha, +1 NA, and +4 Str. Plus Breath weapon stronger. Everything else the class gives is equal to the template and +4 bonus spells too (they had to give some reason to take the class instead of template).
DX2052 09-03-07, 02:31 PM	You cannot be a Dragon (i.e. of the Dragon type, as a Half-Dragon is) and enter the Half-Dragon presetige class. I was refering to the half dragon template it aquired at level 10, not entering as one.
Jaxgaret 09-03-07, 04:46 PM	Why do you want to build a Monk/Assassin/Dragon Disciple character?
DX2052 09-03-07, 05:39 PM	Why do you want to build a Monk/Assassin/Dragon Disciple character? don't exactly "want" to, just though it might be a possible way out of the "Dragon Disciple doesn't work for the Tank, the Skimisher, the Arcane Caster or the Devine caster and thus has no place in a standard 4 person party" rut.
Jaxgaret 09-03-07, 06:50 PM	So you were attempting to make a useful skirmisher DD. A commendable undertaking. A Monk/Dragon Descendant (found in Dragon Magic) could also fill the role as a skirmisher while retaining the draconic feel.
StevenO 09-03-07, 09:45 PM	The Assassin's spell abilities definitely will fill the spellcasting requirement for the DragonD. Now for actual builds I couldn't go for Monk5/Assassin5/DragonD10. That is only a +13 BAB at 20th level for a character who may want to be taking multiple attacks each turn that have associated penalties. There may be ways to make it work but I'd generally look at something a little different. For ability boosts the DragonD does NOT get to stack all the Half-Dragon template bonuses onto what it already has at 10th level. At DD10 the character effectively receives the rest ofthe Half-Dragon template effectively making it a 7 level PrC (look up my Monstrous Disciple) with the Half-Dragon template. I disagree with the statement that the DragonD can't be a party's tank any less than a barbarian or fighter could be. You want to enter DD losing as few points of BAB as possible (preferably Duskblade) and will want to concentrate on you melee ability to take advantage of the +8 Str you'll get. DD may only grant +7 BAB but that can leave you with a +17 at 20th level with an additional +4 Str modifier from DD to add to many of your attacks. If looking to actually improve your spellcasting you'd probably want some levels of Abjurant Champ. Here is a "caster friendly" build for the DD: Warrior*1/Battle Sorcerer 4/ Dragon Disciple 10/ Abjurant Champ 5. Warrior is the fighting class of your choice and Battle Sorcerer is in the UA and SRD, to maximize your bonus spell slots from DD you'd enter AbC after DD 2 and advance your spellcasting to BS 9 giving you 4th level spells. At 20th level you BAB is +16, and you cast spells as a 9th level battle sorcerer and have 2 extra 2nd level slots and 5 extra 4th level slots. If looking for a skirmish/assassin type I'd maybe try this: Barbarian3/Ranger3/Assassin4/DD10. That gets you a +16 BAB, Improved uncanny dodge (Barb+Assassin), and a barbarian's fast movement. Maybe there was something else in Assassin 5 you wanted besides the next +1d6 SA. Although alignment issues and multiclassing could be problems you may also try Barbarian2/Ranger1/Monk4/Assassin3/DD10.
DX2052 09-03-07, 09:54 PM	Thanks for the advice.
Jaxgaret 09-04-07, 12:03 AM	I disagree with the statement that the DragonD can't be a party's tank any less than a barbarian or fighter could be. Being the party's tank is really the only suitable role for the DD - but it's not overly good at it. A vanilla Fighter2/Barbarian18 will likely fulfill the tank role better than pretty much any DD build. And that's without any PrCs or heavy multiclassing. Don't get me wrong - I like DDs, and have enjoyed playing one.
ninjarabbit 09-04-07, 11:10 AM	Your best bet for a DD is probably duskblade5/abjurantchampion5/DD10: 17 BAB and 3rd level spells with a 17 CL thanks to abjurant champion
Orchomenos 09-04-07, 11:51 AM	Though a monk/Dragon Disciple would have many attacks each round. In addition of the flurry of blow, you can add the bite and one claw (or both claw, depending on your understanding of the rule ;)). That doesn't make a great skirmisher, since it forces you to stay in melee with your foe. But if each one of these attacks is a sneak attack (thanks to the Assassin PrC), that could be a really fun build to play.
Jaxgaret 09-04-07, 01:43 PM	Though a monk/Dragon Disciple would have many attacks each round. In addition of the flurry of blow, you can add the bite and one claw (or both claw, depending on your understanding of the rule). A character can with a full attack take both Claw attacks, the Bite attack, and its full attack progression of Unarmed Strikes (which can be made with any part of the body, not just the fists). What's to understand? Anything else is a houserule.
ninjarabbit 09-04-07, 02:02 PM	You might get a ton of attacks from a monk/assassin/DD but you be missing with most of them thanks to your pathetic BAB.
StevenO 09-04-07, 02:12 PM	Though a monk/Dragon Disciple would have many attacks each round. In addition of the flurry of blow, you can add the bite and one claw (or both claw, depending on your understanding of the rule ;)). That doesn't make a great skirmisher, since it forces you to stay in melee with your foe. But if each one of these attacks is a sneak attack (thanks to the Assassin PrC), that could be a really fun build to play. Provided you are using your monk's unarmed attack you certainly can add a bite and two claw attacks to your furry. You take -5 to your attack for these extra natural attacks and I believe you'd also take the -2 if you furry but they are still three extra attack. I don't know that a Ftr2/Barb18 will always "tank" better than any DD build. You definitely get a small (+3) BAB increase which is good but the DD's strength increase is still more than the barbarian and would stack with rage from a barbarian-disciple. You also can't discount the +4 natural armor that can still be enhanced with amulet's of natural armor. Always having that extra bite attack makes wielding a reach weapon a little simpler as well although some talk about threatening with armor spikes. I'll agree that Duskblade 5 isn't a bad way to enter Dragon Disciple but tacking on Abjurant Champ for the Duskblade isn't exactly needed. Sure setting your caster level to your BAB is nice and you'd average one more hp for those levels but you would miss out of a few duskblade features. Duskblade to AbC also has a problem with the required Abjuration spell because unless I'm missing something the DB lowest level abjuration would be a 3rd level spell which means DB 9 so that doesn't work so well. Besides using the spellcasting DragonD build I suggested earlier will still have a +16 BAB and spells per day of 5/5/7/5/8 although you still wouldn't know a ton of spells.
ninjarabbit 09-04-07, 02:39 PM	Duskblades do get resist energy as a 1st level spell so that meets the abjuration requirement.
Jaxgaret 09-04-07, 05:55 PM	Duskblades do get resist energy as a 1st level spell so that meets the abjuration requirement. And Lesser Deflect as a 1st level Abjuration as well.
StevenO 09-04-07, 09:04 PM	Duskblades do get resist energy as a 1st level spell so that meets the abjuration requirement. And Lesser Deflect as a 1st level Abjuration as well. So that is what I get for not having the Spell Compendium and missing one spell. At least I was looking at the right page instead of being one who asks why the Duskblade has so few spell (listed in the back of the book which is what I found.) So it is possible to enter AbC at 6th level with a Duskblade. I still don't know that AbC is a great move although it doesn't hurt much either. Comparing DB spells Known 2+Int/5/4/2 per day 6/7/6/2+7DD vs the BS known 7/4/3/2/1 per day 5/5/5+2/5/3+5 are the extra 1st and 2nd level known by the DB worth more than the 4th level spell the BS would get not to mention the greater freedom the BS has in selecting spells. Actual spells per day is pretty even in the lower levels but the Battle Sorcerer going into DragonD would have so many more 3rd and 4th level slots that the DB.
Jaxgaret 09-04-07, 11:31 PM	So that is what I get for not having the Spell Compendium and missing one spell. Are you talking about Lesser Deflect? It's in the PHBII, the same book as the Duskblade. It's under Deflect, Lesser.
StevenO 09-04-07, 11:53 PM	Don't I get ANY credit for at least finding the Duskblade's spell list? I guess I saw * on Lesser Deflect and the note on the Spell Compendium and put the two together when they should not have been. I think that happens to us all from time to time.
Jaxgaret 09-04-07, 11:55 PM	Don't I get ANY credit for at least finding the Duskblade's spell list? :) Sure, here you go: :twocents: