Dragon Disciple Fix (I hope)(P.E.A.C.H.) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon Disciple Fix (I hope)(P.E.A.C.H.) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zizij
08-29-07, 07:45 PM Now, I know most people don't like the whole "bonus spell" thing the dragon disciple has, but I like it, so I decided to keep it (with improvements), though it may be confusing.

Dragon Disciple

Hit Die: d12
Requirements:
To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill the following criteria:
Race: Any non-dragon
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 8 ranks
Languages: Draconic
Spellcasting: Able to cast Arcane spells without preparation
Special: The player chooses a dragon variety when taking the first level in this prestige class subject to the DM’s approval.

Class Skills:
A dragon disciple’s class skills (and key attribute for each) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually)(Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Level BAB Fort Ref Will
------------------------------
1 +0 +2 +0 +2
2 +1 +3 +0 +3
3 +2 +3 +1 +3
4 +3 +4 +1 +4
5 +3 +4 +1 +4
6 +4 +5 +2 +5
7 +5 +5 +2 +5
8 +6 +6 +2 +6
9 +6 +6 +3 +6
10 +7 +7 +3 +7

Level Special
-------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Natural Armor Increase (+1), Draconic spell power, Spell
2 Ability Boost (Str +2), Claws and Bite, Spell
3 Breath Weapon (2d8), Bonus Feat, Spell
4 Ability boost (Str +2), Natural armor increase,
5 Blindsense 30 ft., Spell
6 Ability boost (Con +2), Bonus Feat, Spell
7 Breath weapon (4d8), natural armor increase (+3),
8 Ability boost (+2 Int), Spell
9 Wings, Bonus Feat, Spell
10 Blindsense 60 ft., dragon apotheosis,

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dragon disciples do not gain any additional weapon or armor proficiency.

The abilities are identical to the entry in the DMG except for the following:

Spellcasting: The dragon disciple adds his class level to his spontaneous spellcasting class to determine caster level and the maximum level of spell the disciple can learn. At all dragon disciple levels except for 4th, 7th and 10th, the dragon disciple learns a new spell from any level they can learn. They also gain two spell slots at the same level as the spell. For example, a sorcerer 5/dragon disciple 5 could learn Wall of Force and have two slots (not including bonus slots for a high ability score) of fifth level to cast it.
If the dragon disciple takes a level of sorcerer, they have to look at gaining new spells slightly differently. To find out how many new spells and spell slots they get, they subtract all the spell slots of their effective sorcerer level (sorcerer level + dragon disciple level) from their current effective sorcerer level. For example, a Sor5/DD4 who takes a level or sorcerer gains 1 fourth level spell slot, three fifth level spell slot and one fifth level spell learned.

Draconic spell power: A dragon disciple gains +1 caster level on all spells that modify his breath weapon and all spells that a sorcerer gains bonus caster level on (such as draconic might)

Bonus Feat: At third level, and every third level after that, the dragon disciple may choose a bonus feat from the following: Ability Focus (Breath Weapon)(MM), Improved Natural Armor (Claws or bite)(MM), Improved Natural Attack (MM), Multiattack (MM), Extra Spell (CArc), or any Draconic Heritage they qualify for (CArc)

What do you think? Overpowered? Underpowered?
rampant
08-31-07, 04:37 AM I think it's fair, and a sight better than the existing PrC
imakuni67
08-31-07, 09:38 AM How we fixed the dragon disciple in the campaign I was in, yes I was the Dragon Disciple...the fix was +1 spellcasting at 3, 6, and 9 and Cha. was the first boost instead of strength That's all. I thinking giving more than than that with a class that has a d12 hit die, medium attack and two good saves is overkill. Just plain overkill. I suppose you could add the rule that you add you determine caster level (for dispelling, duration, power etc.) by the class level, and then spells per day and spells known by +1 every three levels. I think that would be fair. Just remember...

Massive ability boosts
d12 hit die
two good saves
medium attack bonus
lots of other goodies

So, this class is already pretty good, the only thing people are baffled by is the lack of spell casting.
Alacard_Medri
08-31-07, 10:31 AM So, this class is already pretty good, the only thing people are baffled by is the lack of spell casting.

I'm still new at this but the way i looked at it the lack of spell casting was due to the fact that the creators of this prc were assuming that you would be taking levels in sorcerer or wizard as well. I think that is where your spell stuff is supposed to come from. I like this class and my fighter dabbled in the sorcerer class just to attain the prc. I think one of the many reasons for this class is to make spellcasting types less suseptible to melee damage and make them stronger at close combat. Plus taking on the physical form of a dragon is just awesome.
imakuni67
08-31-07, 11:04 AM The class takes on a better form of the half dragon template, basically.
StevenO
08-31-07, 02:33 PM Overpowered.

I say that because the Dragon Disciple works fine for it intended use and you are just adding more stuff to it. If you take out the Half-Dragon template the rest of the Dragon Disciple is pretty strong when compacted down to seven levels; I had posted that as Monstrous Disciple which had the unique feature of doubling up HD for the last three levels.

Spellcasting: Am I reading this correctly as "gain TWO spell slots (instead of the normal one) AND gain a bonus spell as well"? Of course that should be of a level you could previously cast but the example makes it look like those can be higher level slots than you previously had. If that is the cast just simplify things and say +1 caster level instead so you don't confuse the ability.

Draconic Spell Power: An occasional caster level boost on things you may already have a level boost for? I could consider an ability with this name but my effect would be +1 caster level for every two levels of Dragon Disciple; note that this version would not have "+1 spellcasting level" anywhere in the class.

Bonus Feats: They may be focused but are still always useful and just more powerups that aren't needed to begin with.

I know that no one who thinks the Dragon Disciple NEEDS a power-up likes to hear it but the class is fine at what it does. Of course most of us who know that don't even look at those posts which makes the power-up hungry group the majority of the replies so that the true can be hidden.
imakuni67
08-31-07, 03:11 PM I don't think the bonus feats are necessary either, but I still think that +1 spellcasting per 3 levels is fine instead of the bonus spells/slots idea
StevenO
08-31-07, 03:15 PM +1 spellcasting per 3 levels (starting at 3rd) would definitely come closer to getting my approval than the typical suggestions of half casting or even full casting while giving up nothing.
Glabro
10-02-07, 08:47 AM Definitely no to the Dragon Disciple adding to spellcasting level used to determine the number of spells, but definitely yes that the Dragon Disciple should add to the effective caster level of the character. Also, the class should require a higher level of arcane spellcasting, such as third.
StevenO
10-02-07, 04:53 PM If you were going to make the Dragon Disciple require third level spells then it definitely should get a complete remake. The Difference between spontaneously casting spells and spontaneously casting third level spells is about five level that often come from a low BAB and low HD class. Sure, it is possible to get those spells without a big loss of BAB and hp but that will often seriously delay when you could qualify for a DD with 3rd level spells.
The_Shaman
10-02-07, 06:31 PM +1 spellcasting per 3 levels (starting at 3rd) would definitely come closer to getting my approval than the typical suggestions of half casting or even full casting while giving up nothing.

I can quite live with 1/2 casting, to be honest. The Green Star Adept gains more (1/2 for spells, full for casting level), and has comparable - probably even better - abilities. How many GSAs have you seen around?
StevenO
10-03-07, 12:18 AM I can live with the DragonD as written to be honest. Comparing the DD to the Green Star Adept has some merit but isn't all that accurate. The DD is MUCH, MUCH easier to qualify for and doesn't have a built in treasure requirement. The GSA may offer a little better natural AC along with some DR but the stat advancements are much poorer (-4 STR, -3 DEX, kills CON, and no INT or CHA increase) that what a DD gets. The DD gets a second good save and has a HD two steps larger along with a CON bonus.

Both classes are transformational (DD to Dragon, GSA to Construct) with some related abilities but to me the DD stands out at generally better.
The_Shaman
10-03-07, 06:15 AM I admit, the GSA has some drawbacks. It also has some quite impressive strengths, btw - constructs are immune to a whole lot of attack forms (sneak attack, death effects, most fort-based effects, and so on), and that weak fortitude save is practically meaningless with the unnatural metabolism/transformation feature. What I meant is that given the spell progression GSA gets, I do not think it overpowered if the Dragon Disciple got 1/2 casting. I myself would probably consider 4/10 better, but 5/10 won't make it anywhere near underpowered. Heck, about half of its bonuses can be gained with Alter Self, a lvl 2 spell on nearly every arcane caster's list.
runestar
10-03-07, 06:44 AM I would actually make the DD a more martial bent, perhaps by giving it full bab, as well as allowing it to make extra attacks with its wings and tail (which I would also give). Maybe some of the dragon's other abilities such as blindsense and limited sr.

My rationale is that while dragons are innate spellcasters, they are also melee monsters 1st and foremost.

Basically, I am incorporating aspects of the epic DD prc into my so-called fix, since I am seeking to emulate its combat aspect rather than its casting aspect.:)
deathbane
10-03-07, 07:51 AM Now, I know most people don't like the whole "bonus spell" thing the dragon disciple has, but I like it, so I decided to keep it (with improvements), though it may be confusing.

Dragon Disciple

Hit Die: d12
Requirements:
To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill the following criteria:
Race: Any non-dragon
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 8 ranks
Languages: Draconic
Spellcasting: Able to cast Arcane spells without preparation
Special: The player chooses a dragon variety when taking the first level in this prestige class subject to the DM’s approval.

Class Skills:
A dragon disciple’s class skills (and key attribute for each) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually)(Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Level BAB Fort Ref Will
------------------------------
1 +0 +2 +0 +2
2 +1 +3 +0 +3
3 +2 +3 +1 +3
4 +3 +4 +1 +4
5 +3 +4 +1 +4
6 +4 +5 +2 +5
7 +5 +5 +2 +5
8 +6 +6 +2 +6
9 +6 +6 +3 +6
10 +7 +7 +3 +7

Level Special
-------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Natural Armor Increase (+1), Draconic spell power, Spell
2 Ability Boost (Str +2), Claws and Bite, Spell
3 Breath Weapon (2d8), Bonus Feat, Spell
4 Ability boost (Str +2), Natural armor increase,
5 Blindsense 30 ft., Spell
6 Ability boost (Con +2), Bonus Feat, Spell
7 Breath weapon (4d8), natural armor increase (+3),
8 Ability boost (+2 Int), Spell
9 Wings, Bonus Feat, Spell
10 Blindsense 60 ft., dragon apotheosis,

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dragon disciples do not gain any additional weapon or armor proficiency.

The abilities are identical to the entry in the DMG except for the following:

Spellcasting: The dragon disciple adds his class level to his spontaneous spellcasting class to determine caster level and the maximum level of spell the disciple can learn. At all dragon disciple levels except for 4th, 7th and 10th, the dragon disciple learns a new spell from any level they can learn. They also gain two spell slots at the same level as the spell. For example, a sorcerer 5/dragon disciple 5 could learn Wall of Force and have two slots (not including bonus slots for a high ability score) of fifth level to cast it.
If the dragon disciple takes a level of sorcerer, they have to look at gaining new spells slightly differently. To find out how many new spells and spell slots they get, they subtract all the spell slots of their effective sorcerer level (sorcerer level + dragon disciple level) from their current effective sorcerer level. For example, a Sor5/DD4 who takes a level or sorcerer gains 1 fourth level spell slot, three fifth level spell slot and one fifth level spell learned.

Draconic spell power: A dragon disciple gains +1 caster level on all spells that modify his breath weapon and all spells that a sorcerer gains bonus caster level on (such as draconic might)

Bonus Feat: At third level, and every third level after that, the dragon disciple may choose a bonus feat from the following: Ability Focus (Breath Weapon)(MM), Improved Natural Armor (Claws or bite)(MM), Improved Natural Attack (MM), Multiattack (MM), Extra Spell (CArc), or any Draconic Heritage they qualify for (CArc)

What do you think? Overpowered? Underpowered?

Giving a caster level at 1,4,7, and 10 should be enough. That is all I did, but I used him as a melee combatant, instead of as a caster. The feats are not needed.
Spikes01k
10-03-07, 09:02 AM I think a fix is needed, and you did a decent job at it, but simply giving them 1/2 caster levels would probably be a better choice. IDK about the feats though.

You have to take into consideration that there is a duskblade class, which is a very good starting class for this PrC, but even with the original write up it still was a week PrC for them.

You have to think about what you are trying to do here. Are you trying to give a fighter with some spell casting a half dragon template, or are you trying to give the template to a spell caster, ether way the original failed at its job.
Rhyvurg
10-23-07, 03:55 AM While the fix looks good, I have to cast my vote for the existing class. If I want to make the class worth it to take, I take four levels in a full BAB class and take the Practiced Spellcaster feat. You get an effective CL of five, and those bonus spells per day means I can cast Bull's Strength on myself that much more often.
rampant
10-23-07, 03:22 PM Thoughts:

Consider making the draconic heritage feat a requirement. Yeah actually you might want to increase several requirments.

Know Arcane 8, 8 ranks in the skill associated with your draconic heritage
Speak Draconic
Draconic heritage (from Draconomicon)
Cast Arcane Spells Spontaneously

Ok the next step Is to look at the progression

Next up you have the Spell Casting issue Ok the DD pulls down a d12 hd and a 3/4 bab and a +8 str, 1/2 spell caster progression seems fair, heck 4/10 probably would work.

As far as skills I'd alter the list so that the skill from your draconic heritage gets put on the class skill list.

Now the ever problematic breath weapon, it has issues, but its damage issues, can be compensated for with spells and feats until well into epic levels, the issue is learning those techniques for an ability you use once per day, seems an utter waste. Now there are several solutions, 1) grant additional uses per day, 2) keep it a once per day ability but let it deal overwhelming damage (great for gish looking for a melee boost), 3) Make it so it deals damage based on a progression like 1d8/3 HD, or 1d8+1d8/2 DD levels, and grant additional uses per day, 4) elimnate it entirely in exchange for more spell casting advancement, and just assume anyone who wants dragon breath will create a spell or use the draconic breath feat (this one really favors the arcane caster looking to be a dragon, rather than the gish)
vorpo
10-24-07, 08:05 PM Dragonfire adepts with a level dip in sorc are perfect for this PrC with some minor modifications. It is much more synergetic to DFAs than sorcs that's for sure.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zizij 08-29-07, 07:45 PM	Now, I know most people don't like the whole "bonus spell" thing the dragon disciple has, but I like it, so I decided to keep it (with improvements), though it may be confusing. Dragon Disciple Hit Die: d12 Requirements: To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill the following criteria: Race: Any non-dragon Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 8 ranks Languages: Draconic Spellcasting: Able to cast Arcane spells without preparation Special: The player chooses a dragon variety when taking the first level in this prestige class subject to the DM’s approval. Class Skills: A dragon disciple’s class skills (and key attribute for each) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually)(Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. Level BAB Fort Ref Will ------------------------------ 1 +0 +2 +0 +2 2 +1 +3 +0 +3 3 +2 +3 +1 +3 4 +3 +4 +1 +4 5 +3 +4 +1 +4 6 +4 +5 +2 +5 7 +5 +5 +2 +5 8 +6 +6 +2 +6 9 +6 +6 +3 +6 10 +7 +7 +3 +7 Level Special ------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Natural Armor Increase (+1), Draconic spell power, Spell 2 Ability Boost (Str +2), Claws and Bite, Spell 3 Breath Weapon (2d8), Bonus Feat, Spell 4 Ability boost (Str +2), Natural armor increase, 5 Blindsense 30 ft., Spell 6 Ability boost (Con +2), Bonus Feat, Spell 7 Breath weapon (4d8), natural armor increase (+3), 8 Ability boost (+2 Int), Spell 9 Wings, Bonus Feat, Spell 10 Blindsense 60 ft., dragon apotheosis, Class Features: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dragon disciples do not gain any additional weapon or armor proficiency. The abilities are identical to the entry in the DMG except for the following: Spellcasting: The dragon disciple adds his class level to his spontaneous spellcasting class to determine caster level and the maximum level of spell the disciple can learn. At all dragon disciple levels except for 4th, 7th and 10th, the dragon disciple learns a new spell from any level they can learn. They also gain two spell slots at the same level as the spell. For example, a sorcerer 5/dragon disciple 5 could learn Wall of Force and have two slots (not including bonus slots for a high ability score) of fifth level to cast it. If the dragon disciple takes a level of sorcerer, they have to look at gaining new spells slightly differently. To find out how many new spells and spell slots they get, they subtract all the spell slots of their effective sorcerer level (sorcerer level + dragon disciple level) from their current effective sorcerer level. For example, a Sor5/DD4 who takes a level or sorcerer gains 1 fourth level spell slot, three fifth level spell slot and one fifth level spell learned. Draconic spell power: A dragon disciple gains +1 caster level on all spells that modify his breath weapon and all spells that a sorcerer gains bonus caster level on (such as draconic might) Bonus Feat: At third level, and every third level after that, the dragon disciple may choose a bonus feat from the following: Ability Focus (Breath Weapon)(MM), Improved Natural Armor (Claws or bite)(MM), Improved Natural Attack (MM), Multiattack (MM), Extra Spell (CArc), or any Draconic Heritage they qualify for (CArc) What do you think? Overpowered? Underpowered?
rampant 08-31-07, 04:37 AM	I think it's fair, and a sight better than the existing PrC
imakuni67 08-31-07, 09:38 AM	How we fixed the dragon disciple in the campaign I was in, yes I was the Dragon Disciple...the fix was +1 spellcasting at 3, 6, and 9 and Cha. was the first boost instead of strength That's all. I thinking giving more than than that with a class that has a d12 hit die, medium attack and two good saves is overkill. Just plain overkill. I suppose you could add the rule that you add you determine caster level (for dispelling, duration, power etc.) by the class level, and then spells per day and spells known by +1 every three levels. I think that would be fair. Just remember... Massive ability boosts d12 hit die two good saves medium attack bonus lots of other goodies So, this class is already pretty good, the only thing people are baffled by is the lack of spell casting.
Alacard_Medri 08-31-07, 10:31 AM	So, this class is already pretty good, the only thing people are baffled by is the lack of spell casting. I'm still new at this but the way i looked at it the lack of spell casting was due to the fact that the creators of this prc were assuming that you would be taking levels in sorcerer or wizard as well. I think that is where your spell stuff is supposed to come from. I like this class and my fighter dabbled in the sorcerer class just to attain the prc. I think one of the many reasons for this class is to make spellcasting types less suseptible to melee damage and make them stronger at close combat. Plus taking on the physical form of a dragon is just awesome.
imakuni67 08-31-07, 11:04 AM	The class takes on a better form of the half dragon template, basically.
StevenO 08-31-07, 02:33 PM	Overpowered. I say that because the Dragon Disciple works fine for it intended use and you are just adding more stuff to it. If you take out the Half-Dragon template the rest of the Dragon Disciple is pretty strong when compacted down to seven levels; I had posted that as Monstrous Disciple which had the unique feature of doubling up HD for the last three levels. Spellcasting: Am I reading this correctly as "gain TWO spell slots (instead of the normal one) AND gain a bonus spell as well"? Of course that should be of a level you could previously cast but the example makes it look like those can be higher level slots than you previously had. If that is the cast just simplify things and say +1 caster level instead so you don't confuse the ability. Draconic Spell Power: An occasional caster level boost on things you may already have a level boost for? I could consider an ability with this name but my effect would be +1 caster level for every two levels of Dragon Disciple; note that this version would not have "+1 spellcasting level" anywhere in the class. Bonus Feats: They may be focused but are still always useful and just more powerups that aren't needed to begin with. I know that no one who thinks the Dragon Disciple NEEDS a power-up likes to hear it but the class is fine at what it does. Of course most of us who know that don't even look at those posts which makes the power-up hungry group the majority of the replies so that the true can be hidden.
imakuni67 08-31-07, 03:11 PM	I don't think the bonus feats are necessary either, but I still think that +1 spellcasting per 3 levels is fine instead of the bonus spells/slots idea
StevenO 08-31-07, 03:15 PM	+1 spellcasting per 3 levels (starting at 3rd) would definitely come closer to getting my approval than the typical suggestions of half casting or even full casting while giving up nothing.
Glabro 10-02-07, 08:47 AM	Definitely no to the Dragon Disciple adding to spellcasting level used to determine the number of spells, but definitely yes that the Dragon Disciple should add to the effective caster level of the character. Also, the class should require a higher level of arcane spellcasting, such as third.
StevenO 10-02-07, 04:53 PM	If you were going to make the Dragon Disciple require third level spells then it definitely should get a complete remake. The Difference between spontaneously casting spells and spontaneously casting third level spells is about five level that often come from a low BAB and low HD class. Sure, it is possible to get those spells without a big loss of BAB and hp but that will often seriously delay when you could qualify for a DD with 3rd level spells.
The_Shaman 10-02-07, 06:31 PM	+1 spellcasting per 3 levels (starting at 3rd) would definitely come closer to getting my approval than the typical suggestions of half casting or even full casting while giving up nothing. I can quite live with 1/2 casting, to be honest. The Green Star Adept gains more (1/2 for spells, full for casting level), and has comparable - probably even better - abilities. How many GSAs have you seen around?
StevenO 10-03-07, 12:18 AM	I can live with the DragonD as written to be honest. Comparing the DD to the Green Star Adept has some merit but isn't all that accurate. The DD is MUCH, MUCH easier to qualify for and doesn't have a built in treasure requirement. The GSA may offer a little better natural AC along with some DR but the stat advancements are much poorer (-4 STR, -3 DEX, kills CON, and no INT or CHA increase) that what a DD gets. The DD gets a second good save and has a HD two steps larger along with a CON bonus. Both classes are transformational (DD to Dragon, GSA to Construct) with some related abilities but to me the DD stands out at generally better.
The_Shaman 10-03-07, 06:15 AM	I admit, the GSA has some drawbacks. It also has some quite impressive strengths, btw - constructs are immune to a whole lot of attack forms (sneak attack, death effects, most fort-based effects, and so on), and that weak fortitude save is practically meaningless with the unnatural metabolism/transformation feature. What I meant is that given the spell progression GSA gets, I do not think it overpowered if the Dragon Disciple got 1/2 casting. I myself would probably consider 4/10 better, but 5/10 won't make it anywhere near underpowered. Heck, about half of its bonuses can be gained with Alter Self, a lvl 2 spell on nearly every arcane caster's list.
runestar 10-03-07, 06:44 AM	I would actually make the DD a more martial bent, perhaps by giving it full bab, as well as allowing it to make extra attacks with its wings and tail (which I would also give). Maybe some of the dragon's other abilities such as blindsense and limited sr. My rationale is that while dragons are innate spellcasters, they are also melee monsters 1st and foremost. Basically, I am incorporating aspects of the epic DD prc into my so-called fix, since I am seeking to emulate its combat aspect rather than its casting aspect.:)
deathbane 10-03-07, 07:51 AM	Now, I know most people don't like the whole "bonus spell" thing the dragon disciple has, but I like it, so I decided to keep it (with improvements), though it may be confusing. Dragon Disciple Hit Die: d12 Requirements: To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill the following criteria: Race: Any non-dragon Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 8 ranks Languages: Draconic Spellcasting: Able to cast Arcane spells without preparation Special: The player chooses a dragon variety when taking the first level in this prestige class subject to the DM’s approval. Class Skills: A dragon disciple’s class skills (and key attribute for each) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually)(Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. Level BAB Fort Ref Will ------------------------------ 1 +0 +2 +0 +2 2 +1 +3 +0 +3 3 +2 +3 +1 +3 4 +3 +4 +1 +4 5 +3 +4 +1 +4 6 +4 +5 +2 +5 7 +5 +5 +2 +5 8 +6 +6 +2 +6 9 +6 +6 +3 +6 10 +7 +7 +3 +7 Level Special ------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Natural Armor Increase (+1), Draconic spell power, Spell 2 Ability Boost (Str +2), Claws and Bite, Spell 3 Breath Weapon (2d8), Bonus Feat, Spell 4 Ability boost (Str +2), Natural armor increase, 5 Blindsense 30 ft., Spell 6 Ability boost (Con +2), Bonus Feat, Spell 7 Breath weapon (4d8), natural armor increase (+3), 8 Ability boost (+2 Int), Spell 9 Wings, Bonus Feat, Spell 10 Blindsense 60 ft., dragon apotheosis, Class Features: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dragon disciples do not gain any additional weapon or armor proficiency. The abilities are identical to the entry in the DMG except for the following: Spellcasting: The dragon disciple adds his class level to his spontaneous spellcasting class to determine caster level and the maximum level of spell the disciple can learn. At all dragon disciple levels except for 4th, 7th and 10th, the dragon disciple learns a new spell from any level they can learn. They also gain two spell slots at the same level as the spell. For example, a sorcerer 5/dragon disciple 5 could learn Wall of Force and have two slots (not including bonus slots for a high ability score) of fifth level to cast it. If the dragon disciple takes a level of sorcerer, they have to look at gaining new spells slightly differently. To find out how many new spells and spell slots they get, they subtract all the spell slots of their effective sorcerer level (sorcerer level + dragon disciple level) from their current effective sorcerer level. For example, a Sor5/DD4 who takes a level or sorcerer gains 1 fourth level spell slot, three fifth level spell slot and one fifth level spell learned. Draconic spell power: A dragon disciple gains +1 caster level on all spells that modify his breath weapon and all spells that a sorcerer gains bonus caster level on (such as draconic might) Bonus Feat: At third level, and every third level after that, the dragon disciple may choose a bonus feat from the following: Ability Focus (Breath Weapon)(MM), Improved Natural Armor (Claws or bite)(MM), Improved Natural Attack (MM), Multiattack (MM), Extra Spell (CArc), or any Draconic Heritage they qualify for (CArc) What do you think? Overpowered? Underpowered? Giving a caster level at 1,4,7, and 10 should be enough. That is all I did, but I used him as a melee combatant, instead of as a caster. The feats are not needed.
Spikes01k 10-03-07, 09:02 AM	I think a fix is needed, and you did a decent job at it, but simply giving them 1/2 caster levels would probably be a better choice. IDK about the feats though. You have to take into consideration that there is a duskblade class, which is a very good starting class for this PrC, but even with the original write up it still was a week PrC for them. You have to think about what you are trying to do here. Are you trying to give a fighter with some spell casting a half dragon template, or are you trying to give the template to a spell caster, ether way the original failed at its job.
Rhyvurg 10-23-07, 03:55 AM	While the fix looks good, I have to cast my vote for the existing class. If I want to make the class worth it to take, I take four levels in a full BAB class and take the Practiced Spellcaster feat. You get an effective CL of five, and those bonus spells per day means I can cast Bull's Strength on myself that much more often.
rampant 10-23-07, 03:22 PM	Thoughts: Consider making the draconic heritage feat a requirement. Yeah actually you might want to increase several requirments. Know Arcane 8, 8 ranks in the skill associated with your draconic heritage Speak Draconic Draconic heritage (from Draconomicon) Cast Arcane Spells Spontaneously Ok the next step Is to look at the progression Next up you have the Spell Casting issue Ok the DD pulls down a d12 hd and a 3/4 bab and a +8 str, 1/2 spell caster progression seems fair, heck 4/10 probably would work. As far as skills I'd alter the list so that the skill from your draconic heritage gets put on the class skill list. Now the ever problematic breath weapon, it has issues, but its damage issues, can be compensated for with spells and feats until well into epic levels, the issue is learning those techniques for an ability you use once per day, seems an utter waste. Now there are several solutions, 1) grant additional uses per day, 2) keep it a once per day ability but let it deal overwhelming damage (great for gish looking for a melee boost), 3) Make it so it deals damage based on a progression like 1d8/3 HD, or 1d8+1d8/2 DD levels, and grant additional uses per day, 4) elimnate it entirely in exchange for more spell casting advancement, and just assume anyone who wants dragon breath will create a spell or use the draconic breath feat (this one really favors the arcane caster looking to be a dragon, rather than the gish)
vorpo 10-24-07, 08:05 PM	Dragonfire adepts with a level dip in sorc are perfect for this PrC with some minor modifications. It is much more synergetic to DFAs than sorcs that's for sure.