Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rozs 06-28-07, 10:37 PM	Ahoy, I'm new to D&D and I've started on my path to making a dragon disciple, but I need a lot of help and advice from more experienced players. My goal is to make him mostly a character that excels in physical combat and is as tough as a tank. Obviously, me be a noob. What i'm looking for is what stats would i wanna increase and what would be some feats and/or spells that complement my goal. I thank everyone for any input they though in. I'm a human sorcerer and here are my stats as of thus far at lvl 1 STR 15 DEX 14 CON 13 INT 16 WIS 11 CHA 17 spells: Mage Hand 5lbs., mending, daze, light, ghost sound, mage armor, shocking grasp, burning hands skills: alchemy, concentration, craft armor, decipher script, knowledge (arcana) feats taken: toughness, light armor Prof. Right now I'm really lost and all I have is a general goal, so I thank everyone for their advice. :D
Rerecros 06-28-07, 10:39 PM	Personally I would talk to your DM about removing the DD's useless extra spells and spell casting prereq and replace it with higher BAB and BAB prereqs. Unless you are building a gish, never take sorcerer levels for a warrior build.
Rozs 06-28-07, 10:47 PM	Okay, sense i'm new, and i'm already a sorcerer, too late to change that lol, i'm guessing BAB=base attack bonus, but i dunno what you mean by gish...?
Jaxgaret 06-28-07, 10:54 PM	The Dragon Disciple is a primary combatant class, it's not good at all for a straight Sorcerer to take. You've pretty much already ruined your character for going into Dragon Disciple. You would want to start taking levels in classes like Fighter or Barbarian; keep your one level in Sorcerer but no more (and having selected spells like Enlarge Person and Shield, etc. for combat effectiveness, instead of what you selected), and have taken good combat feats instead of the almost useless Toughness, and the completely uselss Light Armor Proficiency, which you would get from taking levels in a melee class anyway, that you already took. So, my advice? Either stick with Sorcerer, and go into a good casting PrC at level 7 - or if your heart is set on becoming a Dragon Disciple, just accept that your character is going to be horrendously bad and do whatever you want for flavor's sake.
Rozs 06-28-07, 11:06 PM	ok, well, i guess i'll just go with what i've got from here, and next time i try to make one, i'll take a different starting class to go into the DD, thanks for the advice
jaelis 06-28-07, 11:14 PM	Sorc 1/Barb 5 isn't an unreasonable route into Dragon Disciple. Taking the sorc level first might not be the easiest way, but it will work. But yes, you didn't really pick the right spells... you want ones that (a) have no arcane spell failure chance and (b) boost your natural combat ability. You might talk to your DM about changing yours out. Which you really need to do anyway, since a sorc 1 should only know 2 first level spells, not 3 :) And your feats are pretty bad choices too, I'm afraid. (Why would you take both light armor prof. and Mage Armor)? If you can also adjust your stats, you'd be better off with your best scores in your physical states instead of Int and Cha.
Rerecros 06-28-07, 11:14 PM	:eek: Hey, you could try some dragon heritage feats from the complete arcane. You can remain a pure caster, and get most of the benefits from the DD PrC.
Rozs 06-28-07, 11:26 PM	lol, ok, i'll talk to him about switching out my spells, but to answer why i picked mage armor, i have very low hp right now, and it has basically saved me from doom a couple of times :D, and my DM was nice and since I am a noob and i'm on a single campaign, i guess that's why he let me have an extra level one spell :D
jaelis 06-28-07, 11:47 PM	Sure, mage armor is a fine spell, but it doesn't stack with regular armor. So if you're wearing light armor and casting the spell, the light armor isn't doing you any good.
The_Shaman 06-29-07, 03:50 AM	OTOH, the shield spell could help if you do not have any. If you want to get DD, by the way, Unearthed Arcana has a variant sorcerer called Battle Sorcerer - less spells known and slots, but he has medium BAB (cleric), d8 hit die, and can cast in light armor.
Rerecros 06-29-07, 04:15 AM	The best entrance class I know of would be the hex blade.
The_Shaman 06-29-07, 06:10 AM	The Duskblade seems like a good choice, too.
Jaxgaret 06-29-07, 02:54 PM	The best entrance class I know of would be the hex blade. The Duskblade seems like a good choice, too. Those are both great choices for a DD. An often overlooked one is Bard4/Marshal2. With the Bard's Inspire Courage and the Marshal's + to melee attacks, you don't lose any attack bonus (you actually gain if you use the Bard Optimization Handbook's methods for boosting IC), the only downside is a little HP loss. You gain a lot of skills and useful abilities and 2nd level spells. You can also replace the 2 levels in Marshal with a 1 level dip in a ToB or other melee class. A Bard4/Warblade1 can work quite nicely.
StevenO 06-29-07, 03:00 PM	You start out stating the right reasons to go into Dragon Disciple but then go and have a HORRIBLE start towards that goal. Starting out the with the spellcasting prereq isn't always a bad thing as you give those Knowledge (arcane) skills a good start but you don't look like a warrior wanabe. If working for a DragonD you typically want to use Duskblade or Hexblade follow by Battle Sorcerer (UA) and behaps Bard or straight Sorcerer. To maximize the class you don't want to lose more than +1 BAB as DD already costs +3 by the time its done so you need to fill with a martial class. Given the stats rolled (which are beyond outstanding) I'd arrange them this way for a Dragon Disciple. Str 17 Dex 15/16 Con 15/16 Int 14 (better for starting skill points) Wis 11 Cha 13 (you'll never be a great caster so this doesn't need to be that high) Spend your feats like a warrior with power attack being high on the list. You shouldn't have many spells so they either need to be buffs (preferable long acting) or usable all the way. I'd prefer to avoid spells with an (S) component so you never need to worry about arcane failure due to armor. A couple favorite spells for a DragonD include True Strike (often followed with a maximized Power Attack), and Blur if you decide to stick around for 2nd level spells. My favorite entries into DD: Dusk/Hexblade 5 Duskblade 2-1/(warrior 3-4) BattleSorcerer (or Bard) 4/(warrior 1) Paladin 3/Sorcerer2 or some mix of these. (warrior) is which ever fighting (full BAB) class you like the most as each has its good and bad points.
jaelis 06-29-07, 03:11 PM	Paladin 3/Sorcerer2 Why would you take sorc 2 instead of paly 4? Sorc 2 gives you one more spell/day, which you'll have plenty of anyway. But Paly 4 gives you turn undead and paly spells, which are pretty good. You can take divine feats to use your turn undead on, and you can apply the bonus spells from DD to the paly class, making your spellcasting a lot more flexible. Not to mention you get more hitpoints.
runestar 06-29-07, 10:55 PM	Why would you take sorc 2 instead of paly 4? Sorc 2 gives you one more spell/day, which you'll have plenty of anyway. But Paly 4 gives you turn undead and paly spells, which are pretty good. And the best thing is that the bonus slots from DD can be applied to your paladin spells, which is not a bad option, considering that you already get so many arcane spell slots. Filling those paladin slots with lesser restorations or bless weapon sounds good to me any time of the day.:)
Phalo 06-29-07, 11:28 PM	personally If i was going to go into DD i would take Spellthief 5 you gain the steal spell like ability steal 2nd level spells and steal resistance. Which it totally cool once you get those enemies with awesome abilities. Also you get armor can use your breathweapon as a sneak attack assuming you took one of the lines .
StevenO 06-29-07, 11:50 PM	Why would you take sorc 2 instead of paly 4? Sorc 2 gives you one more spell/day, which you'll have plenty of anyway. But Paly 4 gives you turn undead and paly spells, which are pretty good. You can take divine feats to use your turn undead on, and you can apply the bonus spells from DD to the paly class, making your spellcasting a lot more flexible. Not to mention you get more hitpoints. Because I'm not paying enough attention. You're right and going with Pal4/Sor1 is probably better than P3/S2. If I didn't want to enter DragonD as soon as possible I would consider waiting until I get the highest level spells possible; bonus 2nd level spontaneous slots are so much more useful than bonus 1st level slots. It would take a bit of class juggling but it would be possible to make DD10 by 20th level while having a BAB +16 while casting spells at the 6-7th level without having too many weak HD. Using one of the Sorcerer entry methods you could take levels in Abjurant Champion before you finish DD to get your casting ability up and allowing those bonus slots to go to higher level spells without a serious reduction in BAB or HP.
The_Shaman 06-30-07, 03:33 AM	personally If i was going to go into DD i would take Spellthief 5 you gain the steal spell like ability steal 2nd level spells and steal resistance. Which it totally cool once you get those enemies with awesome abilities. Also you get armor can use your breathweapon as a sneak attack assuming you took one of the lines . AFAIK, no you can not - if it does not involve an attack, and that means an attack roll, it does not work. Remember the part of CArc on sneak attacking on spells?
Phalo 06-30-07, 11:57 AM	AFAIK, no you can not - if it does not involve an attack, and that means an attack roll, it does not work. Remember the part of CArc on sneak attacking on spells? your right about the breath weapon i forgot there is no attack roll on that. But everything else is valid. Side not why is everyone including sorcerer in the requirements. Lots of classes qualify by themselves. Bard, hexblade, warmage, spellthief, and thats just off the top of my head.
jaelis 06-30-07, 01:17 PM	Bard and spell thief aren't really combat classes, so don't make much that much sense with DD. Bard is fine for a dip, probably 2 levels is best to get some decent spells. I wouldn't have thought warmage would be very good. Low-level offensive spells aren't very exciting at high levels, you really want buffs and utility spells. But I don't have the class, maybe it's better than I realize. Hexblade is good. But I'm not sure a hexblade 5 is actually stronger than sorc 1 plus barb, paladin, or fighter 4.
Jaxgaret 06-30-07, 02:28 PM	Bard isn't really a combat class, so doesn't make much that much sense with DD. Bard is fine for a dip, probably 2 levels is best to get some decent spells. Going Bard4 nets you 2nd level spells and 4 uses of Bardic Music and you still only lose the one BAB. Also, there is a feat called Chaos Music that allows a Chaotic-aligned Bard to up their Bardic Music effective level by 4, up to their HD; it's like Practiced Spellcaster for Bards. This allows this build to be as if an 8th level Bard for BM purposes - note that Bards get Inspire Courage +2 at 8th level. Combined with Song of the Heart, and the other IC-boosting methods found in the Bard Optimization Handbook (using a Horn, taking Words of Creation if the DM allows it), you get a nice boost to all attacks and damage for the whole party (including your badass self), 4/day. You can take a d10 or d12 HD class at first level for maximum HP, if you'd like; your skill points suffer, but it might be more important to have the extra 4 or 6 HP if you're going to be a frontliner.
jaelis 06-30-07, 07:55 PM	Fair enough. I'd rather have uncanny dodge and the extra rage myself, but I can see your point.
WolfHati 06-30-07, 08:28 PM	With arcane strike, you can also convert some of those second level bard spells into +2d4 damage and +2 to hit with one of your melee weapons for a round.
StevenO 06-30-07, 08:34 PM	Having four levels of Bard may fit well with a Brass or Copper Dragon Disciple.
Phalo 06-30-07, 09:28 PM	Bard and spell thief aren't really combat classes, so don't make much that much sense with DD. Bard is fine for a dip, probably 2 levels is best to get some decent spells. I wouldn't have thought warmage would be very good. Low-level offensive spells aren't very exciting at high levels, you really want buffs and utility spells. But I don't have the class, maybe it's better than I realize. Hexblade is good. But I'm not sure a hexblade 5 is actually stronger than sorc 1 plus barb, paladin, or fighter 4. The spell thief is just 1bab behind fighter take 2 more levels 7thspelltheif and you get absorb spell which basically throws a wrench into anyone shooting at you. you also can resistance to energy types. and actual spells