Dragon Disciple trouble [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon Disciple trouble [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
d00mfr0g
03-25-07, 12:23 PM i've been playing a dragon disciple for a while now and it seems a little lacking in power in comparison to some of my fellow adventurers characters. has anyone made a sucessful DD who has some pointers for me?
StevenO
03-25-07, 02:36 PM How did you get there and were are you now? What class(es) did you use to meet the prereqs and what is your current level?

The Dragon Disciple is best used by a character that wants to take advantage of that high Strength Score. Unlike some PrCs the DD is NOT one any player should casually dip into for a few levels as most of its strength is gained in that last level. Until you get there one of my choice tactics is casting True Strike followed with a full Power Attack.
d00mfr0g
03-26-07, 10:13 PM I am a human 4 sorceror/1 fighter/3 dragon disciple. my feats are combat casting, improved initiative, weapon focus(scythe), Toughness. base stats: str 16, dex 16, con 16, int 10, wis 8, cha 14. my spells are
Arcane Mark
Detect Magic
Disrupt Undead
Light
Read Magic
Resistance

Level 1
Enlarge Person
Magic Weapon
True Strike

Level 2
Bull.s Strength
StevenO
03-27-07, 12:02 AM Unfortunately, you will lag behind your companions as the DragonD is a fighting class but you entered it as a spellcaster. Although getting 2nd level spells pre-DD is nice because you can add slot for them I'd hate the loss of hp and BAB.

With this character I also believe your feats are very sub-optimal. Combat casting is normally not recommended (except to get into a PrC) and toughness is universally hated although I imagine you need the Hp to stay alive.

I'd see if you can undergo a minor "rebuild" and switch your sorcerer levels for Battle Sorcerer (UA also in SRD I believe.) You lose one spell known of each level (but still know minimum of 1) and one slot from each level in exchange for a 1d8 hd, 3/4BAB, prof. with a light or one handed martial weapon, and the ability to cast in light armor.
Marcus Majarra
03-28-07, 12:59 AM The problem is: the Dragon Disciple is not a caster-friendly PrC. It's a fighter-friendly PrC. you're better off starting as a Hexblade or Duskblade for the spontaneous arcane spellcasting requirement, and building up on your melee ability.
Tytalus
03-28-07, 05:05 AM I am a human 4 sorceror/1 fighter/3 dragon disciple. my feats are combat casting, improved initiative, weapon focus(scythe), Toughness.

Wow, those are some unoptimized choices.

It has already been pointed out, the DD is mostly a fighter PrC. You started off as a caster, which now makes you neither a good caster nor a good fighter.

If you get a chance to rebuild you PC, here are a few tips:

Try Duskblade5/DD3. This also gets you 2nd level spells, but makes you a much better fighter (and provides nice synergy with the DD bonuses). For example, you can cast in medium armor. Duskblade is from PHB2.

For feats, you should drop Combat Casting (instead rely on pre-combat buffs and fast-casts), Weapon Focus (nice, but not needed with the better BAB of Duskblade), Toughness (simply a horrible feat). Improved Initiative is ok. Consider instead Improved Toughness [CW], Power Attack, Leap Attack [CAdv], Arcane Strike [CW] etc.

For stats, swap INT and CHA.

Hope that helps.
RPGfan
03-31-07, 02:00 AM What the DD is really built for is the Bard. Bards are good at tanking if they choose the right abilities and spells, plus they have Tasha's Hideous Laughter at second level. For those who think that spell sucks, I'd like to point out that it's essentially a flavorful Hold Person. To quote one infamous conversation at my table:

Bard: "I cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter at the Ogre."
DM: "Isn't that a joke spell?"
Bard: "Only when a Wizard casts it."
Wizard: "Hey!"

Bards can get in to DD without Multiclassing and benifits greatly from the extra Soundbursts and THL's per day. Plus, they get to slice people up with their bare "hands" whenever they get called "spoony".
Weapons Lord
03-31-07, 02:24 AM Get wraithstrike as a 2nd level spell somehow. It's cast as a swift action and lets you take all your melee attacks as touch attacks. You can power attack away at your full BAB and if you're using a 2 handed weapon you'll be dealing out some incredible damage.
Lotus Crane
03-31-07, 03:27 AM What the DD is really built for is the Bard.
No, what the DD is really built for is the hexblade. The hexblade has the easiest time qualifying for DD, is one of the most likely candidates to wind up with a final BAB of +16 or higher (for 4+ attacks to take full advantage of DD's Strength bonuses), is the least likely to miss his already meager spell advancement, and Arcane Resistance + Mettle, combined with the DD's saves and bonuses, makes him effectively immune to half the offensive magic in the game.
The_Shaman
03-31-07, 11:59 AM No, what the DD is really built for is the hexblade. The hexblade has the easiest time qualifying for DD, is one of the most likely candidates to wind up with a final BAB of +16 or higher (for 4+ attacks to take full advantage of DD's Strength bonuses), is the least likely to miss his already meager spell advancement, and Arcane Resistance + Mettle, combined with the DD's saves and bonuses, makes him effectively immune to half the offensive magic in the game.

Hexblade, duskblade, or a battle sorcerer are imo good ways to approach the PrC. However, I think the Dragon Disciple should just be rephrased to give 4/10 or 5/10 spellcasting (a la greenstar adept, but without the extra boost in power level), and leave it at that.
RPGfan
03-31-07, 12:58 PM No, what the DD is really built for is the hexblade. The hexblade has the easiest time qualifying for DD, is one of the most likely candidates to wind up with a final BAB of +16 or higher (for 4+ attacks to take full advantage of DD's Strength bonuses), is the least likely to miss his already meager spell advancement, and Arcane Resistance + Mettle, combined with the DD's saves and bonuses, makes him effectively immune to half the offensive magic in the game.True, the Hexblade is better suited for the Dragon Disciple. So I guess that retroactivly (it was made after the DD was), yes the Dragon Disciple is made for Hexblade. You just come off as a little rude and dissmissive towards the idea of a Bard/DD. Plus, Bards are fun.
Hexblade, duskblade, or a battle sorcerer are imo good ways to approach the PrC. However, I think the Dragon Disciple should just be rephrased to give 4/10 or 5/10 spellcasting (a la greenstar adept, but without the extra boost in power level), and leave it at that.You, I like. Polite, helpful, unimposing, and gives good ideas on class abilities (the 5/10 spellcasting thing is so house ruled). You rock man.

On a more topic related note, you should try taking a look at PHII. It has rules and ideas on how to redo someone's class levels in game.
Lotus Crane
03-31-07, 09:42 PM You just come off as a little rude and dissmissive towards the idea of a Bard/DD. Plus, Bards are fun.
I didn't mean to be rude, but I'm not going to mince words when it comes to rebuffing bad ideas. Bard/DD is a terrible waste of both classes' strengths; bard doesn't provide the starting hit points and BAB necessary to take full advantage of the DD's bonuses; DD kills the bard's skill, spell, and music advancement painfully. Even a basic fighter 4/sorcerer 1 who only ever uses true strike is going to make a better DD candidate than a bard.

If you want to be a bard, there are tons of PrC choices that are more optimal than DD. If you insist on a fighting bard, even War Chanter is strictly superior; you still lose out on spellcasting progression, but you maintain (sorta) your skills and music, and the full BAB means that you'll probably get 4+ attacks eventually.
RPGfan
03-31-07, 11:15 PM True, but I have a limited number of books and the Barbarian isn't doing too well on his own. I didn't mean to be rude either, so lets just agree to disagree.

On a lighter note, kittens. Aren't they fluffy-wuffy cute?
EarthTremor
04-07-07, 02:27 PM I am a human 4 sorceror/1 fighter/3 dragon disciple. my feats are combat casting, improved initiative, weapon focus(scythe), Toughness. base stats: str 16, dex 16, con 16, int 10, wis 8, cha 14. my spells are
Arcane Mark
Detect Magic
Disrupt Undead
Light
Read Magic
Resistance

Level 1
Enlarge Person
Magic Weapon
True Strike

Level 2
Bull.s Strength

While I must agree with the other posters in that your choices of class and feats is less that optimal, that isn't going to help you much. So instead we'll look at what we can do with your character as is.

I'll be assuming you DM isn't allowing level or feat re-training or swapping of spells known. I'll also assume you're only using the PHB, DMG and MM. There's a lot of material in other splatbooks that would benefit a Dragon Disciple, so if you do have other books available, let us know!.

Feats - well, we can't change them, so let's consider what feats to pick up later. Power Attack and Cleave really are a must, with Great Cleave and Improved Sunder worth consideration too. Unfortunately you don't meet the requirements for Improved Trip, but if you pump your INT one point at 12th level, your bonus from Dragon Disciple will give you a total of 13 the following level - enough to take Combat Expertise (trust me, Improved Trip is worth it, especially for a high-STR character).

Don't forget to look for feats in the Monster Manual. Multiattack and Improved Natural Attack both improve the effectiveness of your secondary bite attack. Once your airborne, Flyby Attack is very handy, as is Hover, expecially when enlarged.

Spells - You really don't want to hurt your BAB by taking more levels in sorceror, but if you do, my personal reccomendations would be (1st) Grease and (2nd) Mirror Image or Web. Even though Grease and Web allow saving throws, creatures that make their saves are still affected by the spell in some manner, and neither allows SR. They're both good for temporarily 'occuping' a few of your enemies while you focus your attacks elsewhere. Mirror Image is also one of the best low-level defensive spells for arcane casters.

Gear - Seriously, seriously consider buying armour, even if only a mithral chain shirt. At the very least that's +4 AC for a non-magical version in exchange for a 10% arcane spell failure chance. Speaking of which,arcane spell failure only applies to spells with somatic components, so you could clank around in full plate and still cast Light and True Strike without penalty. The Still Spell feat could help you cast other spells when armoured, so long as you don't mind the spell level and casting time increase.

:Edit: - Although there is no Metamagic Rod for Still Spell, consider buying others. A Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell costs only 3,000gp and can double the duration of your Bull's Strength spells.

Levels - Once you finish Dragon Disciple you should probably grab just fighter levels, but if you really must sacrifice your BAB and hit points further for more spellcasting, look at going to for the Eldritch Knight Prc - You'll only need two more levels or sorceror to qualify, and you'll end up only losing one point of attack bonus for the ability to cast 4th-level spells. Your hit points will still suck though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
d00mfr0g 03-25-07, 12:23 PM	i've been playing a dragon disciple for a while now and it seems a little lacking in power in comparison to some of my fellow adventurers characters. has anyone made a sucessful DD who has some pointers for me?
StevenO 03-25-07, 02:36 PM	How did you get there and were are you now? What class(es) did you use to meet the prereqs and what is your current level? The Dragon Disciple is best used by a character that wants to take advantage of that high Strength Score. Unlike some PrCs the DD is NOT one any player should casually dip into for a few levels as most of its strength is gained in that last level. Until you get there one of my choice tactics is casting True Strike followed with a full Power Attack.
d00mfr0g 03-26-07, 10:13 PM	I am a human 4 sorceror/1 fighter/3 dragon disciple. my feats are combat casting, improved initiative, weapon focus(scythe), Toughness. base stats: str 16, dex 16, con 16, int 10, wis 8, cha 14. my spells are Arcane Mark Detect Magic Disrupt Undead Light Read Magic Resistance Level 1 Enlarge Person Magic Weapon True Strike Level 2 Bull.s Strength
StevenO 03-27-07, 12:02 AM	Unfortunately, you will lag behind your companions as the DragonD is a fighting class but you entered it as a spellcaster. Although getting 2nd level spells pre-DD is nice because you can add slot for them I'd hate the loss of hp and BAB. With this character I also believe your feats are very sub-optimal. Combat casting is normally not recommended (except to get into a PrC) and toughness is universally hated although I imagine you need the Hp to stay alive. I'd see if you can undergo a minor "rebuild" and switch your sorcerer levels for Battle Sorcerer (UA also in SRD I believe.) You lose one spell known of each level (but still know minimum of 1) and one slot from each level in exchange for a 1d8 hd, 3/4BAB, prof. with a light or one handed martial weapon, and the ability to cast in light armor.
Marcus Majarra 03-28-07, 12:59 AM	The problem is: the Dragon Disciple is not a caster-friendly PrC. It's a fighter-friendly PrC. you're better off starting as a Hexblade or Duskblade for the spontaneous arcane spellcasting requirement, and building up on your melee ability.
Tytalus 03-28-07, 05:05 AM	I am a human 4 sorceror/1 fighter/3 dragon disciple. my feats are combat casting, improved initiative, weapon focus(scythe), Toughness. Wow, those are some unoptimized choices. It has already been pointed out, the DD is mostly a fighter PrC. You started off as a caster, which now makes you neither a good caster nor a good fighter. If you get a chance to rebuild you PC, here are a few tips: Try Duskblade5/DD3. This also gets you 2nd level spells, but makes you a much better fighter (and provides nice synergy with the DD bonuses). For example, you can cast in medium armor. Duskblade is from PHB2. For feats, you should drop Combat Casting (instead rely on pre-combat buffs and fast-casts), Weapon Focus (nice, but not needed with the better BAB of Duskblade), Toughness (simply a horrible feat). Improved Initiative is ok. Consider instead Improved Toughness [CW], Power Attack, Leap Attack [CAdv], Arcane Strike [CW] etc. For stats, swap INT and CHA. Hope that helps.
RPGfan 03-31-07, 02:00 AM	What the DD is really built for is the Bard. Bards are good at tanking if they choose the right abilities and spells, plus they have Tasha's Hideous Laughter at second level. For those who think that spell sucks, I'd like to point out that it's essentially a flavorful Hold Person. To quote one infamous conversation at my table: Bard: "I cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter at the Ogre." DM: "Isn't that a joke spell?" Bard: "Only when a Wizard casts it." Wizard: "Hey!" Bards can get in to DD without Multiclassing and benifits greatly from the extra Soundbursts and THL's per day. Plus, they get to slice people up with their bare "hands" whenever they get called "spoony".
Weapons Lord 03-31-07, 02:24 AM	Get wraithstrike as a 2nd level spell somehow. It's cast as a swift action and lets you take all your melee attacks as touch attacks. You can power attack away at your full BAB and if you're using a 2 handed weapon you'll be dealing out some incredible damage.
Lotus Crane 03-31-07, 03:27 AM	What the DD is really built for is the Bard. No, what the DD is really built for is the hexblade. The hexblade has the easiest time qualifying for DD, is one of the most likely candidates to wind up with a final BAB of +16 or higher (for 4+ attacks to take full advantage of DD's Strength bonuses), is the least likely to miss his already meager spell advancement, and Arcane Resistance + Mettle, combined with the DD's saves and bonuses, makes him effectively immune to half the offensive magic in the game.
The_Shaman 03-31-07, 11:59 AM	No, what the DD is really built for is the hexblade. The hexblade has the easiest time qualifying for DD, is one of the most likely candidates to wind up with a final BAB of +16 or higher (for 4+ attacks to take full advantage of DD's Strength bonuses), is the least likely to miss his already meager spell advancement, and Arcane Resistance + Mettle, combined with the DD's saves and bonuses, makes him effectively immune to half the offensive magic in the game. Hexblade, duskblade, or a battle sorcerer are imo good ways to approach the PrC. However, I think the Dragon Disciple should just be rephrased to give 4/10 or 5/10 spellcasting (a la greenstar adept, but without the extra boost in power level), and leave it at that.
RPGfan 03-31-07, 12:58 PM	No, what the DD is really built for is the hexblade. The hexblade has the easiest time qualifying for DD, is one of the most likely candidates to wind up with a final BAB of +16 or higher (for 4+ attacks to take full advantage of DD's Strength bonuses), is the least likely to miss his already meager spell advancement, and Arcane Resistance + Mettle, combined with the DD's saves and bonuses, makes him effectively immune to half the offensive magic in the game.True, the Hexblade is better suited for the Dragon Disciple. So I guess that retroactivly (it was made after the DD was), yes the Dragon Disciple is made for Hexblade. You just come off as a little rude and dissmissive towards the idea of a Bard/DD. Plus, Bards are fun. Hexblade, duskblade, or a battle sorcerer are imo good ways to approach the PrC. However, I think the Dragon Disciple should just be rephrased to give 4/10 or 5/10 spellcasting (a la greenstar adept, but without the extra boost in power level), and leave it at that.You, I like. Polite, helpful, unimposing, and gives good ideas on class abilities (the 5/10 spellcasting thing is so house ruled). You rock man. On a more topic related note, you should try taking a look at PHII. It has rules and ideas on how to redo someone's class levels in game.
Lotus Crane 03-31-07, 09:42 PM	You just come off as a little rude and dissmissive towards the idea of a Bard/DD. Plus, Bards are fun. I didn't mean to be rude, but I'm not going to mince words when it comes to rebuffing bad ideas. Bard/DD is a terrible waste of both classes' strengths; bard doesn't provide the starting hit points and BAB necessary to take full advantage of the DD's bonuses; DD kills the bard's skill, spell, and music advancement painfully. Even a basic fighter 4/sorcerer 1 who only ever uses true strike is going to make a better DD candidate than a bard. If you want to be a bard, there are tons of PrC choices that are more optimal than DD. If you insist on a fighting bard, even War Chanter is strictly superior; you still lose out on spellcasting progression, but you maintain (sorta) your skills and music, and the full BAB means that you'll probably get 4+ attacks eventually.
RPGfan 03-31-07, 11:15 PM	True, but I have a limited number of books and the Barbarian isn't doing too well on his own. I didn't mean to be rude either, so lets just agree to disagree. On a lighter note, kittens. Aren't they fluffy-wuffy cute?
EarthTremor 04-07-07, 02:27 PM	I am a human 4 sorceror/1 fighter/3 dragon disciple. my feats are combat casting, improved initiative, weapon focus(scythe), Toughness. base stats: str 16, dex 16, con 16, int 10, wis 8, cha 14. my spells are Arcane Mark Detect Magic Disrupt Undead Light Read Magic Resistance Level 1 Enlarge Person Magic Weapon True Strike Level 2 Bull.s Strength While I must agree with the other posters in that your choices of class and feats is less that optimal, that isn't going to help you much. So instead we'll look at what we can do with your character as is. I'll be assuming you DM isn't allowing level or feat re-training or swapping of spells known. I'll also assume you're only using the PHB, DMG and MM. There's a lot of material in other splatbooks that would benefit a Dragon Disciple, so if you do have other books available, let us know!. Feats - well, we can't change them, so let's consider what feats to pick up later. Power Attack and Cleave really are a must, with Great Cleave and Improved Sunder worth consideration too. Unfortunately you don't meet the requirements for Improved Trip, but if you pump your INT one point at 12th level, your bonus from Dragon Disciple will give you a total of 13 the following level - enough to take Combat Expertise (trust me, Improved Trip is worth it, especially for a high-STR character). Don't forget to look for feats in the Monster Manual. Multiattack and Improved Natural Attack both improve the effectiveness of your secondary bite attack. Once your airborne, Flyby Attack is very handy, as is Hover, expecially when enlarged. Spells - You really don't want to hurt your BAB by taking more levels in sorceror, but if you do, my personal reccomendations would be (1st) Grease and (2nd) Mirror Image or Web. Even though Grease and Web allow saving throws, creatures that make their saves are still affected by the spell in some manner, and neither allows SR. They're both good for temporarily 'occuping' a few of your enemies while you focus your attacks elsewhere. Mirror Image is also one of the best low-level defensive spells for arcane casters. Gear - Seriously, seriously consider buying armour, even if only a mithral chain shirt. At the very least that's +4 AC for a non-magical version in exchange for a 10% arcane spell failure chance. Speaking of which,arcane spell failure only applies to spells with somatic components, so you could clank around in full plate and still cast Light and True Strike without penalty. The Still Spell feat could help you cast other spells when armoured, so long as you don't mind the spell level and casting time increase. :Edit: - Although there is no Metamagic Rod for Still Spell, consider buying others. A Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell costs only 3,000gp and can double the duration of your Bull's Strength spells. Levels - Once you finish Dragon Disciple you should probably grab just fighter levels, but if you really must sacrifice your BAB and hit points further for more spellcasting, look at going to for the Eldritch Knight Prc - You'll only need two more levels or sorceror to qualify, and you'll end up only losing one point of attack bonus for the ability to cast 4th-level spells. Your hit points will still suck though.