Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nonsi 09-07-07, 08:41 AM	The Eldritch Conduit is a living breathing being of unparalleled innate abundance of access to spontaneous magic, combining knowledge, insight and force of personality to mix the concepts of Eldritch Disciple and the Eldritch Theurge into one perfect spontaneous wielder of magic. The core (PHB I) deities that sponsor Eldritch Conduits are Boccob, Vecna and Wee Jas. Requirements: Class Levels: Favored Soule 1, Sorcerer 1, Warlock 4. Skills: Concentration 6, Knowledge (arcana / religion / the planes) 4 ranks each, Spellcraft 6, UMD 6. Feats: Combat Casting, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Transdimensional Spell. Invocations: Entropic Warding. Abilities: INT 14+, WIS 14+, CHA 18+. Special: Never had level progression in any other class – including racial class. Multiclass Restriction: Total. No feat overrides this restriction. Once taking a level in another class, can never again progress as an Eldritch Conduit. BAB: poor Saves: good Will, poor Fort & Ref. HP: 6 / level Skill points: 2 + INT-mod Class Skills: Concentration, Knowledge (arcane / religion / the planes), Spellcraft, UMD. Invocations: The Eldritch Conduit continues advancing his access to new invocations and his Eldritch Blast progression. Furthermore, His Warlock's Detect Magic class feature is as potent as his ECL. Spells known: The Eldritch Conduit continues advancing his spellcasting abilities in both arcane and divine magic and uses separate tables for his spells known – one for his Favored Soule's spells progression and one for his Sorcerer's spells progression. Spells allotment: The Eldritch Conduit uses the Favored Soule's "Spells per Day" table to determine how many spells he can cast daily, having access to both his arcane and divine spells known. Special class features by level: 1 – Gift of the divine patron *, Domain: Magic 2 3 – Spellblast ** 4 5 – Gift of the divine patron * 6 7 – Eldritch Spellweave ** 8 9 – Gift of the divine patron * 10 11 – Greatreach Blast ** 12 13 – Gift of the divine patron * 14 – Timeless Body *, Perfect Self * As described for the Eldritch Disciple. ** As described for the Eldritch Theurge. Domain: Magic – Granted Power is calculated against the Eldritch Conduit's ECL. Perfect Self – As given for the Monk.
forsaken1111 09-07-07, 01:39 PM	This is terrible. It looks like you built it for a specific character, not as a general-use prestige class. First, prestige classes never require specific class levels. The requirements are always written as "Arcane caster level 3rd" or something similar, to allow many entry avenues. Also very very few prestige classes have a requirement of specific stats. This combined with the feat requirements means you have to be a human with a REALLY good charisma to even qualify by 6th level. Anyone but a human would have to wait till 9th level, assuming they met the strict stat and class requirements. Second, it makes the Eldritch Disciple and Theurge obsolete by combining their best abilities into one class. Why would anyone ever take them when they could take this better class instead? Third, the multiclassing requirements are just plain silly. You can't say "This overrides all feats" because the feat says otherwise and you'll just get into an argument with the DM. In essence, it looks like you built an overpowered class which is only useful to a specific character with a specific build. It is useless to anyone except a human Favored Soul 1/Sorc 1/Warlock 4. Why would any DM allow this in their game? Okay I suppose I should be constructive, but its so terribly written. You paid no heed to balance, class design theory, or variety. Its just a reprint of the best abilities of two other classes. It would be like if I made a class which gave me turning, full divine and arcane progression, and some sneak attack rogue abilities. I really can't find anything good to say about it, or any way to salvage it. Just remake it...
Khatoblepas 09-07-07, 03:41 PM	Please read pg.174-175 and pg.197 of your Dungeon Master's Guide for information on how to construct prestige classes.
nonsi 09-07-07, 03:56 PM	Thanks for the reply. I needed the shake down. First, prestige classes never require specific class levels. The requirements are always written as "Arcane caster level 3rd" or something similar, to allow many entry avenues. Ok, my bad, bigtime. It took some time to soak the insight that no speotaneous spellcaster would EVER gain access to spell levels faster than the sorc/FS. To make it more appropriate for a template, I guess I could play with the requirements and say you need to be 1st level spontaneous arcan caster and 1st level spontaneous divine caster and know any 3 invocations, one of which must have more than one aspect somehow. Also very very few prestige classes have a requirement of specific stats. This was based on the intuition that you'd have to be someone really special to juggle 3 magical aspects in a single class. Even after a thought, I feel no change is needed there (you'd have to have very high scores just to keep up with the spell-level progression anyhow). This combined with the feat requirements means you have to be a human with a REALLY good charisma to even qualify by 6th level. Anyone but a human would have to wait till 9th level, assuming they met the strict stat and class requirements. Not really, thanks to the option of taking flaws - some of which are bearly noticeable when it comes to spellcasters. Furthermore, there are other races that grant a bonus feat at 1st level (I know of one halfling subrace). Second, it makes the Eldritch Disciple and Theurge obsolete by combining their best abilities into one class. Why would anyone ever take them when they could take this better class instead? Take the Mystic Theurge for example. Combined with the Arcane Hierophant you could have access to TWO separate spell lists, studying each separately, progressing to 9th level spells and gaining WAY more magical power (definitely more crunch). Same goes with Eldritch Theurge. 9th level spells are available pre-epic. The Eldritch Conduit would ALWAYS trail 2 spell levels behind. I also compared to the Eldritch Disciple and found several disadvantages (BAB, HP, no undead turning, trailing 1 or 2 spell levels behind interchangeably). Guess I could change it "2nd level spontaneous divine & arcane caster", but wouldn't it be trailing too far behind on the power curve meter (trailing 3 spell levels behind Eldritch Theurge at every other level)? Don't forget that by the time the Eldritch Conduit has access to just 1st level, a pure caster would be half way into accessing 4th level spells. Third, the multiclassing requirements are just plain silly. You can't say "This overrides all feats" because the feat says otherwise and you'll just get into an argument with the DM. This came to avoid the possibility of someone inventing an "Ascetic <whatever>" to bypass this limitation (there's definitely no such feat at current). Moreover, I believe the Sacred Fist shares the same restriction. Come to think of it the "Never had level progression in any other class" restriction is stupid. Okay I suppose I should be constructive, but its so terribly written. You paid no heed to balance, class design theory, or variety. Its just a reprint of the best abilities of two other classes. It would be like if I made a class which gave me turning, full divine and arcane progression, and some sneak attack rogue abilities. I really can't find anything good to say about it, or any way to salvage it. Just remake it... Hope I managed to fix what needs fixing and clarify what needs clarifying. If you have any other comments, do share. Edit: my mistake. spontaneous spellcasters don't necessarily need high INT/WIS for their spells.(how do I stikeout text?)
Khatoblepas 09-07-07, 04:55 PM	This was based on the intuition that you'd have to be someone really special to juggle 3 magical aspects in a single class. Even after a thought, I feel no change is needed there (you'd have to have very high scores just to keep up with the spell-level progression anyhow). It is a written rule that you do not make a class whose requirements are ability scores. Nor actual class levels. It says so in the DMG. It is as solid as some of the other important rules of D&D. Not really, thanks to the option of taking flaws - some of which are bearly noticeable when it comes to spellcasters. Furthermore, there are other races that grant a bonus feat at 1st level (I know of one halfling subrace). Never build something based on the availability of a variant rule. Prestige Classes should be as open ended as possible, with extremely flexible entry requirements. Special: Never had level progression in any other class – including racial class. This is a poor, poor way of balancing something. ------------------------------------------- I think the problem with this class is that it steps on too many toes. It's a triple threat (Arcane/Divine/Invocation), and that it's entry requirements suck. Too specialised. Take a look at the Fochlucan Lyrist, the only other triple threat I know. It's entry requirements are both flexible and difficult. It's got a set entry path, but it can be played with for better effect / different flavor. See the Fochlucan Lyrist handbook. This class is so stringent, it's a wonder anyone but a single person could use it.
forsaken1111 09-07-07, 05:05 PM	This class is so stringent, it's a wonder anyone but a single person could use it. That was exactly my point as well. Either you must have a bonus feat at 1st level from race, or your DM must allow flaws. Many DM's do not allow them for the very reason you mentioned, its easy to pick one which won't impact your game at all, which means free feat for no penalty. My DM forces you to take a meaningful flaw if you want the bonus feat. It can be something we come up with out of game, like a family curse or powerful enemy, or one of the ones in UA so long as he feels it will have an impact and not be a free feat.
nonsi 09-07-07, 06:29 PM	I think the problem with this class is that it steps on too many toes. It's a triple threat (Arcane/Divine/Invocation), and that it's entry requirements suck. Too specialised. Take a look at the Fochlucan Lyrist, the only other triple threat I know. It's entry requirements are both flexible and difficult. It's got a set entry path, but it can be played with for better effect / different flavor. See the Fochlucan Lyrist handbook. Wait a minute. Aren't Speak Language (Druidic), Bardic Knowledge and the skill requirements practically doing the same thing - forcing you to take levels as Druid, Bard and Rogue ? (never encountered any other base classes that can speak Druidic and have Bardic Music/Knowledge). And listen to this: "The great bards who lead the school ... " (also see the "adaptation" part) :lightbulb Now suppose I went around this difficulty and took a level as a Wizard/Sorc. I'd be 2 levels backward in arcane spellcasting progression, but then I'll have FULL arcane & divine spellcasting progression + full BAB + skills bonanza + 2 good saves. The Eldritch Conduit seems so weak suddenly :weep: Another thing I've noticed just now, is that Druids don't have Perform as class skill, so I don't see how the sample character given in CAdv could qualify for the Fochlucan Lyrist without Skill Knowledge (the variant rule loophole). But if it was manageable somehow, I'd say take 2 Druid levels and 2 Wizard levels. Note: the Fochlucan Lyrist is a quadruple threat - also progresses as a powerful warrior, designed maticulously (aside for the variant rule loophole) to peek exactly at level 20, to continue progressing unhindered at the epic playground - ending up stepping on everybody's toes. Anyway, "back to business" It is a written rule that you do not make a class whose requirements are ability scores. Nor actual class levels. It says so in the DMG. It is as solid as some of the other important rules of D&D. Ok. What would you use to represent [someone really special to juggle 3 magical aspects in a single class], aside for the skills requirement (or is it enough) ? Never build something based on the availability of a variant rule. Prestige Classes should be as open ended as possible, with extremely flexible entry requirements. Taking a closer look, I noticed I messed up bigtime :raincloud 3 feats are irrelevant for 1st spell-level casters (Silent / Still / Transdimensional Spell). Do you have any suggestions for 2 alternative feats to come instead ? Which 3 feats would you use to open the door for such magical versatility ? (or maybe I should drop this requirement altogether?) This is a poor, poor way of balancing something. Already agreed this one. I'll rewrite after I get things worked out.
forsaken1111 09-07-07, 06:51 PM	Sort of, but there are other ways to get the language and bardic knowledge. They require a lot of work but its possible.
Khatoblepas 09-08-07, 02:05 PM	Wait a minute. Aren't Speak Language (Druidic), Bardic Knowledge and the skill requirements practically doing the same thing - forcing you to take levels as Druid, Bard and Rogue ? (never encountered any other base classes that can speak Druidic and have Bardic Music/Knowledge). And listen to this: "The great bards who lead the school ... " (also see the "adaptation" part) :lightbulb Now suppose I went around this difficulty and took a level as a Wizard/Sorc. I'd be 2 levels backward in arcane spellcasting progression, but then I'll have FULL arcane & divine spellcasting progression + full BAB + skills bonanza + 2 good saves. The Eldritch Conduit seems so weak suddenly :weep: Another thing I've noticed just now, is that Druids don't have Perform as class skill, so I don't see how the sample character given in CAdv could qualify for the Fochlucan Lyrist without Skill Knowledge (the variant rule loophole). But if it was manageable somehow, I'd say take 2 Druid levels and 2 Wizard levels. Note: the Fochlucan Lyrist is a quadruple threat - also progresses as a powerful warrior, designed maticulously (aside for the variant rule loophole) to peek exactly at level 20, to continue progressing unhindered at the epic playground - ending up stepping on everybody's toes. Number of ways to get into Fochlucan Lyrist: Bard 1/Druid 4/Green Whisperer 3/Spelldancer 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 10 Bard 1/Druid 4/Combat Medic 5/Fochlucan Lyrist 10 Rogue 2/Bard 7/Druid 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 10 Bard 7/Master Thrower 2/Druid 1/Sublime Chord 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8 Rogue 2/Bard 6/PrC 1/Ur-Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9 Bard 5/PrC 1/Ur-Priest 2/Divine Oracle 2/Sublime Chord 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8 Human Paragon 3/Wizard 1/Fighter 1/Ur-Priest 2/Spelldancer 2/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8 Number of ways to get into Eldritch Conduit: Human Favored Soul 1/Sorcerer 1/Warlock 4 See what I mean? This should, at worst, be a 10th level entry class. Besides which, Lyrist doesn't offer that much in epic. Epic BAB, saves are the same with every class, so it's just getting a d6 HD, 6 skill points per level, and I have no clue about the caster advancement (probably alternates). It's a tiny bit more powerful than epic Mystic Theurge. The reason why the Lyrist was created was to recreate the 1e bard. This class... serves no purpose other than stepping on the toes of the Eldritch Disciple/Theurge, and having only one entry point. I mean, come on! It even has awesome class features! The Lyrist has ONE. One unique class feature! And that's just so you can cast in light armor. I'd give up on this one. The world will never be ready for it, since it steps on too many toes. Imagine an epic progression for this beastie. No way.
nonsi 09-08-07, 08:06 PM	Number of ways to get into Eldritch Conduit: I said I inted to change it as soon as I clarify a few things for myself. Give me a chance. See what I mean? This should, at worst, be a 10th level entry class. Besides which, Lyrist doesn't offer that much in epic. Epic BAB, saves are the same with every class, so it's just getting a d6 HD, 6 skill points per level, and I have no clue about the caster advancement (probably alternates). It's a tiny bit more powerful than epic Mystic Theurge. You know, I still fail to see how this is manageable using the druid (that doesn't have Perform (string instrument) as class skill) without variant rules. But that's not the issue. Taking the Arcane Hierophant rout (which is quite easy) and filling the remaining non-epic levels with Mystic Theurge (plus 2 x Practices Spell Caster + retraining 2 feats for extra spell slots)........ I trust you see that given the Eldritch Conduit's potential, it's way way behind in terms of spell levels available, spells known and spells per bay (asside for the invocations). This class... serves no purpose other than stepping on the toes of the Eldritch Disciple/Theurge, and having only one entry point. It loses the crunch contest by a mile or so. I mean, come on! It even has awesome class features! The Lyrist has ONE. It depends on what you call "awesome". If your talking about versatility and open options, I'll agree in a heartbeat - that's pecisely where I was aiming at. If you're talking about attending the "most powerful class" contest, then I couldn't agree with you less. Take for instance the following build: Cleric of Pelor 5 / Divine Oracle 2 / Radiant Servant of Pelor 6 / Contemplative 7. Count them and tell me what you've got (I counted 4 (ok, 3.5) extra domains + 80% of the Monk's most beneficial special traits + 30% full scale Wizard in terms of spellcasting options..... plus many extras that are worth mentioning). I've also seen builds that were way more broken than this sample.
Khatoblepas 09-08-07, 08:39 PM	You have the class features of two prestige classes, a bonus domain, and Dark Invocations! Instead of thinking about it giving up 9th level arcane and divine spells, think about it instead losing 2 warlock caster levels for 5th-6th level arcane and divine spells. That's more than a bard gets in his entire career! Twice! With Dark invocations on top! With only 2 levels loss to Warlockdom, and that's how it is RAI! As for your insistence that Druids can't get perform (string instruments) without variant rules, Greensinger Initiate (EbCS) wants to have a word with you. Also, after you get a class with perform as a class skill, your max skill ranks is calculated as a class skill, even if you do have to spend skill points as cross class. Lyrist Entry is supposed to be Rogue 2/Bard 4/Druid 4 btw. This class is simply too much. Not enough focus, too clearly overriding two existing perfectly servicable prestige classes by stealing their schtick AND their class features, and furthermore... I don't know. Something just doesn't sit right with a class like this. It's flying in the face of everything I know to be true about prestige classes. Also it powers up Warlocks a leetle too much. This class is creeping me out, man.
StevenO 09-08-07, 09:14 PM	Overlooking the Prereqs for the moment this is what you get at 20th level. BAB +10; Saves Fort +7, Reflex +7, Will +17; HD 5d8+1d4+14d6; Invocations 18th level Spells Known as 15th level Sorcerer (7th level spells) and Favored Soul with domain. Spells per day ??? CL 14: 0/6/6/6/6/6/5/3 from all known. plus Sorcerer 1 and Favored Soul 1 Abilities: Spellblast, Eldritch Spellweave, Greater Spellblast, Timeless body, perfect self. There are a few problems with this for starters: I think I know how you want spellcasting to go with all the spells known feeding one spontaneous casting pool but that isn't well represented. Basically you'd need to give this class its own spontaneous casting progression and make a note of advancing spells known in your previous classes along with increasing invocation levels. All your Eldritch Disciple based abilities state ARCANE spells and it appears all your spells are DIVINE because they are based on the Favored Soul. Gifts of the Divine Patron are worthless without "Turn Undead" to power them. Power wise giving up just two Invocation levels for ALL those spells is far too good for any normal PrC. You've definitely voided use of Eldritch Disciple with sorcerers as you can enter this earlier and continue to gain spells long after ED quits; with ED you can be Invo17/Cast13 but here you are better at both with a bigger spell list to draw from. The Prereqs are of course completely messed up and aren't close to the "standard" format. Overlooking the Prereq mess I don't think this class's poor BAB will make up for the casting it gets.