Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zardnaar 12-22-07, 03:05 PM	In my games no one ever takes the Eldritch Knight PrC so I decided to retweak it (break it?). I left the requirements unchanged and merged it with the Spellsword PrC. Anyway heres what it is know. BAB: As fighter Full spellcasting progression Hit Dice: d8 Saves. Good Fort and Will Level 1. Reduce Arcane Spell Failure 10% 2. Bonus Feat 3. Reduce Arcane Spell Failure 15% 4. Bonus Feat 5. Reduce Arcane Spell Failure 20% 6.Bonus Feat 7. Reduce Arane Spell Failure 25% 8.Bonus Feat 9. Reduce Arcane Spell Failure 30% 10. Bonus Feat A level 1 Fighter/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight would cast spells as a level 15 caster and have +13/+8/+3 BAB I'm happy with the PrC as I don't think its broken by itself but may be to easy to qualify for. Thinkig of addding aditional requirments to it such as BAB+4 or weapon specialisation. I allow things like Duskblades into my games and I've tweaked various other clsses as well (fighters get 4 skill poiints/level IMC for example). Also I have a 3 member group so don't mind allowing a PrC like this into the group as they may have to share roles and I don't want to go as far as a gestalt game.
StevenO 12-22-07, 09:23 PM	You broke it. If no one uses EK in your campain perhaps no one has played a character that should be taking it in the first place. You may not want to try gestalt but this class is as strong as combining Fighter and Wizard because you don't take much (the Wizard's familiar and MM feats but a sorcerer only loses familiar) and give the ability to overcome ASF. You don't mention the skill point and list but that doesn't matter. You give an "example" of a character at 16th level. I think it is a bit stronger than you let on. Ftr16 = +16 BAB, eight bonus feats, Saves 10/5/5 Wiz16 = +8 BAB, cast at 16th level, two bonus feats, saves 5/5/10 Ftr1/Wiz5/This10 = +13 BAB, casting at 15th level, six bonus feats, save 10/4/11, -30% ASF In exchange for that one casting level a wizard gains +5 BAB, four feats, a net +5 on saves, and ignores 30% of ASF which means they can wear pretty much any armor they like especially if it is mithral. That build may give the wizard a lot but you can also use that class to give the fighter a lot. Ftr4/Wiz1/"other martial"1/Abjurant Champ5/This5 = +15 BAB, five bonus feats (-1 for Combat Casting prereq), cast as 11th level with CL 15, -20% ASF, saves* 11/3/11, the AbC's goodies and what ever other benefits the "other martial" class adds besides +1 BAB and +2 FORT Here we see a fighter give up one point of BAB and four feats for 11 casting levels (that's 6th level wizard spells!) with a CL only one behind the single class wizard, a -20% ASF which goes a long way when using Mithral armor, and those other class benefits which include quick casting and possibly more bonus feats. Don't forget we can take 4 more levels of this EK before 20th level for two more bonus feats, another -10% ASF, and four more casting levels. We don't get any further behind a straight fighter (except a few hp) but you cast spells as well as a level 15 wizard could which would count for something. Maybe comparison to single class fighters and wizards isn't the way to go but then these builds aren't optimized either. In the Fighter/Wizard build consider the situation if we used Paladin and Sorcerer instead. Really, exchanging the bonus feat at the official EK's first level to the final spellcasting increase would already increase its use dramatically. Here not only do you do that but you add the fighter's bonus feat progression, up the HD size, add another good save, and finally add a special ability that makes merging armored fighting and spellcasting so much easier. Maybe this isn't broken in your campain but it doesn't sound like you're playing the DnD most of us expect. We have already seen enough "power creep" in RAW material that adding more with houserules will make critiquing an impossible task given the lack of context.
Zardnaar 12-22-07, 10:55 PM	Fair enough. Any advice on toning it down then? I was thinking of adding weapon specialisation as a pre req (F4/W5 or F4/Sorc6).
Red_Wizards_Rock 12-22-07, 11:44 PM	I would add Combat Casting as a Prerequisite and take off atleast two of those feats. Even than it's still to much it's hard putting two classes together to become one.
IdleAltruism 12-23-07, 12:20 AM	Fair enough. Any advice on toning it down then? I was thinking of adding weapon specialisation as a pre req (F4/W5 or F4/Sorc6). The class itself gives way to many feats. I've found the EK to be essential in many gish builds. It is well balanced. Just because a PrC doesn't see much action it does not mean it needs to be changed. The eldritch knight is a good PrC and really doesn't need to be changed. If you want to make a more feat oriented semi-casting class I suggest lowering the total number of 3 bonus feats and changing it to 1/2 casting. Full BAB good fort save, bonus feat at first level, and possibly add no arcane spellfailure instead of -%. That seems very vanilla to me tho. The way you have it now also seems rather bland(and very overpowered). There are plenty of ways to make a near full casting/BAB gish, there really is no need to make another(unless you happen to have a very original idea; this is not one of them) There aren't many semi-casters. If you want something more along those line, I suggest going for something very unique. If your players don't want to play an EK they don't have to. If you don't think its that useful I suggest taking a look at the CharOp boards and EK builds. If you add weapon specialization to the requirement, it'll be much less powerful then the actual Eldritch Knight(when it comes to gishes, it will still be an uber fighter dip class and still overpowered).
Zardnaar 12-23-07, 01:48 AM	Well between Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, Spellsword and Duskblade I should be right. I think I'll tweak it and add a racial requirement- ancient race PCs don't have access to.
IdleAltruism 12-23-07, 01:57 PM	Well between Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, Spellsword and Duskblade I should be right. I think I'll tweak it and add a racial requirement- ancient race PCs don't have access to. What? :confused:
StevenO 12-23-07, 08:04 PM	Fair enough. Any advice on toning it down then? I was thinking of adding weapon specialisation as a pre req (F4/W5 or F4/Sorc6). As I said earlier just replacing the official EK's feat at level one with the 10th casting increase would increase its use. Adding a bunch of combat style prereqs may make it less abusable by the spellcasting side but doesn't make it any less potent to a warrior dipping into magic. Note that if you added Weapon Specialization that would change NOTHING on the fighter heavy build in my original post and that build already needed Combat Casting.
Axiomatic_vampire 12-25-07, 04:30 AM	I would add Combat Casting as a Prerequisite and take off atleast two of those feats. Even than it's still to much it's hard putting two classes together to become one. Whatever the entry requirement should be, it probably shouldn't mirror a prerequisite for abjurant champion. What those two classes DON'T need is even more synergy.
ff6shadow 12-25-07, 09:25 AM	Maybe something more like this. D8 Level BAB Fort Ref Will Spells Features 1 +1 +0 +0 +2 - Reduced Spell Failure 5% 2 +2 +0 +0 +3 +1 Bonus Feat 3 +3 +1 +1 +3 +1 4 +4 +1 +1 +4 +1 Reduced Spell Failure 10% 5 +5 +1 +1 +4 +1 Bonus Feat 6 +6 +2 +2 +5 - 7 +7 +2 +2 +5 +1 Reduced Spell Failure 15% 8 +8 +2 +2 +6 +1 Bonus Feat 9 +9 +3 +3 +6 +1 10 +10 +3 +3 +7 +1 Reduced Spell Failure 20% More feats, spell failure reduction, and d8, but going to cost another caster level. For prerequisites 3rd level spells, proficient with all martial weapons, weapon focus (any) Just f ew thoughts
archerpwr 12-26-07, 05:49 PM	Maybe something more like this. D8 Level BAB Fort Ref Will Spells Features 1 +1 +0 +0 +2 - Reduced Spell Failure 5% 2 +2 +0 +0 +3 +1 Bonus Feat 3 +3 +1 +1 +3 +1 4 +4 +1 +1 +4 +1 Reduced Spell Failure 10% 5 +5 +1 +1 +4 +1 Bonus Feat 6 +6 +2 +2 +5 - 7 +7 +2 +2 +5 +1 Reduced Spell Failure 15% 8 +8 +2 +2 +6 +1 Bonus Feat 9 +9 +3 +3 +6 +1 10 +10 +3 +3 +7 +1 Reduced Spell Failure 20% More feats, spell failure reduction, and d8, but going to cost another caster level. For prerequisites 3rd level spells, proficient with all martial weapons, weapon focus (any) Just f ew thoughts Put something tempting at level 6. Don't make it a dead level of casting and no specials. Shifting back the bonus feats one level would probably do the trick. As for EK not being used: Wiz 6/ Fighter 1/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 7 is a CO gish staple. One of the big three gish stubs.
ff6shadow 12-27-07, 02:20 AM	Yeah I wasn't paying much attention when I did that. Level BAB Fort Ref Will Spells Features 1 +1 +0 +0 +2 - Reduced Spell Failure 5% 2 +2 +0 +0 +3 +1 3 +3 +1 +1 +3 +1 Bonus Feat 4 +4 +1 +1 +4 +1 Reduced Spell Failure 10% 5 +5 +1 +1 +4 +1 6 +6 +2 +2 +5 - Bonus Feat 7 +7 +2 +2 +5 +1 Reduced Spell Failure 15% 8 +8 +2 +2 +6 +1 9 +9 +3 +3 +6 +1 Bonus Feat 10 +10 +3 +3 +7 +1 Reduced Spell Failure 20% There. Now it gets a bonus feat and the +1 to all saves a level 6.
sigma999 12-27-07, 07:00 AM	Just use "Armored Mage" or whatever spankin' new but shockingly familiar "arcane spell failure bypass" ability of the month is up now. Cut the crap about ASF minus whatever % and give it a bonus feat every other level. As long as it has less casting power than a full-class mage, like by at least 3-4 levels behind, it'll be fine.
RobbyPants 12-27-07, 12:04 PM	I always thought it would be interesting to see it as a full casting, 3/4 BAB class. WotC already has two classes like this (Sacred Exorsist and Unseen Seer) that also have lots of special abilities crammed in. Now, would the X% Reduce Spell Failure stack with Spellsword? I guess it doesn't really matter that much if it does. With mithril and the twilight enchantment, you can get full plate with only 15% ASF anyway.
StevenO 12-27-07, 12:31 PM	There may be two 3/4 BAB classes with full spellcasting but they aren't exactly easy to get into. I guess a Wizard may not have a hard time with the Exorcist aside from gaining the church sanction but I'd much rather take a CHA based class into it. The Unseen Seer has some pretty steep skill requirements for a straight caster and can hurt your offensive spells in the long run. Having said that I think a 3/4 BAB with full arcane casting class is a fine idea for a "gish" PrC.
RobbyPants 12-27-07, 12:49 PM	I guess a Wizard may not have a hard time with the Exorcist aside from gaining the church sanction but I'd much rather take a CHA based class into it. Agreed. I think you need a 5th level spell to qualify. I prefer the whole paladin/sorcerer approach both for flavor and synergy... Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorsist 8 appraoch to be more specific :P
sigma999 12-27-07, 01:24 PM	Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorsist 8 appraoch to be more specific :P Well, that's what is wrong with D&D PrCs right now. Cherrypicking like crazy. Why even bother with 10 levels of this or that lame class when most people only dabble in the good stuff then bail?
RobbyPants 12-27-07, 01:33 PM	Well, that's what is wrong with D&D PrCs right now. Cherrypicking like crazy. Why even bother with 10 levels of this or that lame class when most people only dabble in the good stuff then bail? Actually, I'm only "cherry picking" one class there: the spellsword. Other than that, Abjurant Champion is carried to it's completion, and Sacred Exorsist is taken as far as it can go in 20 levels. The trick is to think of the character as an arcane holy warrior as opposed to a combination of five classes. Although I have a feeling I'm veering away from the topic at hand...
Zardnaar 12-27-07, 04:53 PM	One of the reasons I want to get this working is because of cherrypicking Gish builds of Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, and Abjurant Champion. I want a full 10 level PrC so its can be level 11 in epic levels with full BAB and spellcasting. Abjurant Champin has both and is't exactly broken. If you want a gish play a Cleric or some hodgepodge of several PrCs. I like the suggestion to ditch the Arcane Spell Failure for armored casting. Question is full BAB and Spellccasting inherently broken? You need MAD and if you actually play from level 1 qualifying is a pain- I'm not to worried about level 20 builods the optimisation boards come up with. Duskblades and Abjurant Chamions don't seem broken but milage may vary.
StevenO 12-28-07, 01:55 AM	The reasons Abjurant Champ is not broken has nothing to do with its full BAB and spellcasting. The reasons the AbC work are the high +6 BAB required to get into the class (which makes entry at 7th level minimum with the full BAB Dusk/Hexblade and more likely at 8+ or 12th if you want full casting) and because it IS only five levels. Being a 5 level PrC gives you a little more freedom to make it stronger because you don't need to worry about an epic progression for it. I don't know that full BAB and Spellcasting in a 10 level PrC is inherently "broken" but it would certainly raise the bar in what one expects from a PrC. The official EK may be considered bland and boring but when compared to the base classes it is quite well balanced. Now the last version of a modified EK may be far more balanced but it still practically eliminates the Spellsword and not gaining spellcasting at level one would likely mean no one would take it when they wouldn't take EK before.
Zardnaar 12-28-07, 02:41 AM	Never seen a Spellsword being used and most people online seem only to take a 1 level dip. I want to design a 10 level PrC with d8 hit dice, full BAB and full spellcasting- this may make the Eldritch knight and Spellsword obsolete in game but they already are (abjurant champion, Duskblade). I'm thinking of making it a Fighter 4/Wiz 5 requirement (weapon specilization and 3rd level arcane spells+ 1 or 2 feats maybe). At level 20 you could have F4/Wiz 6/PrC 10 for +17 BAB, level 16 caster, and 4d10+6d4+10d8 hit dice. Would this be more broen than a Wiz 20 or Druid/Cleric 20? Don't think so.
sigma999 12-28-07, 06:25 AM	Never seen a Spellsword being used and most people online seem only to take a 1 level dip. I want to design a 10 level PrC with d8 hit dice, full BAB and full spellcasting- this may make the Eldritch knight and Spellsword obsolete in game but they already are (abjurant champion, Duskblade). I'm thinking of making it a Fighter 4/Wiz 5 requirement (weapon specilization and 3rd level arcane spells+ 1 or 2 feats maybe). At level 20 you could have F4/Wiz 6/PrC 10 for +17 BAB, level 16 caster, and 4d10+6d4+10d8 hit dice. Would this be more broen than a Wiz 20 or Druid/Cleric 20? Don't think so. Exactly. So the Spellsword as a class was a failure, and should really be entirely folded into one or two feats. Try making the requirement lower, like 1 spellcaster level and 4 BAB.
Zardnaar 12-28-07, 07:00 AM	I'm leaning towards this ATM. Full spellcasting d8 hit dice full BAB armored casting minor class abilities(maybe bonus fighter feats) requirements weapon specialization combat casting 4rd level arcane spells. Essentially Fighter 4/Wiz 5 is probably the quickest way in. Level 20 F4/Wiz5/PrC10/Abjurant Champion1 Cast spells as level 16 wizzie, +17 BAB
RobbyPants 12-28-07, 09:49 AM	Never seen a Spellsword being used and most people online seem only to take a 1 level dip. I want to design a 10 level PrC with d8 hit dice, full BAB and full spellcasting- this may make the Eldritch knight and Spellsword obsolete in game but they already are (abjurant champion, Duskblade). I'm thinking of making it a Fighter 4/Wiz 5 requirement (weapon specilization and 3rd level arcane spells+ 1 or 2 feats maybe). At level 20 you could have F4/Wiz 6/PrC 10 for +17 BAB, level 16 caster, and 4d10+6d4+10d8 hit dice. Would this be more broen than a Wiz 20 or Druid/Cleric 20? Don't think so. Exactly. So the Spellsword as a class was a failure, and should really be entirely folded into one or two feats. Try making the requirement lower, like 1 spellcaster level and 4 BAB. I think the issue here is that a typical optimized gish build tries to squeeze in as much BAB and casting as possible, putting more emphasis on caster level. Most people's minimum requirements are to get BAB 16+ and 9th level spells by 20th level. There are all sorts of ways to do this, depending on what exactly you're looking for. This is where the spellsword "fails", in that it's only really used for one level. If they were to put the caster level increases on the even levels instead of the odd levels, you'd have to pay the price of a caster level loss right up front. Even without the Ignore ASF 10% at first level, the +1 BAB and caster level as well as +2 Fort and Will make it a very appealing dip. It's a rediculously front-loaded class. While some of the other abilities (continued Ignore ASF progression and channeling) are nice, they're seldom seen as better than caster levels. So, to rebuild the Eldritch Knight in such a way as to make the old version and the Spellsword obsolete, you'll have to offer something to make players want to take the full 10 levels. A full casting progression will certainly help. I think you'll have a hard time pitching a full caster and BAB progression to most people here, so you have two choices: Take a hit in caster level Take a hit in BAB The original EK already chooses the first option. Personally (as mentioned in my first post), I'd like to see an EK rework that has 3/4 BAB and full casting. I still think it's weak enough to justify putting in a few special abilities. If you wanted to throw in an Ignore ASF class feature, cosider putting it at the levels where a 3/4 BAB doesn't advance (1, 5, and 9). This doesn't mean you can't have features at other levels, but those three in particular need to remain attractive enough to keep people from dipping right back out. You can bring Ignore ASF up to 30% if you want, but if you're worried about it being overpowered or fitting in other abilities, you never really need to go beyond 15% (enough to cast in twilight mithirl fullplate). Anyway, long post made short: any rework you do has to be attractive enough over all 10 levels to make the other two classes obsolete.
sigma999 12-28-07, 02:59 PM	Yep, giving Armored Mage or whatever Ignore All Spell Failure will work as a 1 level dip in exchange for enough BAB to make the PrC a 3/4 BAB class, but to entice players to stay it should then be able to top a Duskblade in casting/fighting synergy. Built-in buffs, like those of Cleric but as (Su) powers, as well as the ability to quicken or Swift most of those buffs, is a nice option. I'm shocked that there is so little in this type of gish ability.
Zardnaar 12-28-07, 03:50 PM	Duskblades and that elven bladedancer PrC can cast quickened spells as part of their PrC progression. Not the "power creep" PrCs are alot better now than early PrCs/classes like Spell Swords and Eldritch Knight (Duskblade, Abjurant Champion). The designers also seem happy to have armored spellcasters with the Beguiler and Warmage classes. Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight kinda suck. Is a PrC that duplicates the Abjurant Champion over 10 levels really going to be broken. How is it any worse than a single classed or Druid which can usually oout perform any optimised Gish class?
Zardnaar 12-28-07, 04:21 PM	How about something like. Requirements. Feats Weapon Specialisation, Combat Casting Spells: Able to cast 3rd level arcane spells. BAB: As fighter Full spellcasting progression Hit Dice: d8 Saves. Good Fort and Will Level 1. Armored Casting (light), 2. Bonus Feat 3. Armored Casting (medium) 4. Bonus Feat 5. Armored Casting (heavy) 6. Bonus Feat 7. ????? 8. Bonus Feat 9. ????? 10. Bonus Feat Armored Casting= can cast in that type of armor. Bonus Feat: Must be selected from any Fighter bonus feat.
StevenO 12-28-07, 04:53 PM	Never seen a Spellsword being used and most people online seem only to take a 1 level dip. I want to design a 10 level PrC with d8 hit dice, full BAB and full spellcasting- this may make the Eldritch knight and Spellsword obsolete in game but they already are (abjurant champion, Duskblade). I'm thinking of making it a Fighter 4/Wiz 5 requirement (weapon specilization and 3rd level arcane spells+ 1 or 2 feats maybe). At level 20 you could have F4/Wiz 6/PrC 10 for +17 BAB, level 16 caster, and 4d10+6d4+10d8 hit dice. Would this be more broen than a Wiz 20 or Druid/Cleric 20? Don't think so. Maybe most optimizers don't use too many levels of Spellsword but depending on what else you want to take I have seen builds that go three levels in. Spellsword and Eldritch Knight are NOT obsolete by RAW. They may not be used to the extent they had but they still offer some advantages when compared to the AbC and Duskblade. The Spellsword may be the most obsoleted but as it repeatedly shows up as 1 to 3 level dips in build to lower that ASF you can't say it is dead. The EK allows for more spellpower than either AbC or Duskblade because you have that many more levels of spell advancement after taking your level one hit. Unless you ban Abjurant Champ along with the Spellsword and Eldritch Knight there is no such thing as a Fighter4/Wizard5 entry point for a PrC. Where you see a +6 BAB and 5 casting levels I see at least a +7 BAB with the same 5 casting levels. Having a high BAB prereq and Combat Casting just makes your PrC an extension of the Abjurant Champion. NEWS FLASH: It is already possible to get a +17 BAB and 16th level casting. Fighter1/Wizard5/EK8/SS1/AbC5 has +17 BAB and 18th level casting in fact. Now wether or not your PrC is "broken" depends on all the abilities you give it.
StevenO 12-28-07, 05:06 PM	This latest example is extremely strong. Try building like this for a Human or Dwarf: Fighter4/Paladin2/Sorcerer1/Abjurant Champ5/"new EK"8: It may end up casting at only 14th level (with a CL 19) but has a +19 BAB, can cast in any armor, has seven bonus fighter feats (vs the normal 11), saves at 11/4/13 + CHA mod, and has all the AbC's benefits. I guess pointing out the a full BAB PrC with full Arcane casting and any abilities is too strong is rather pointless. If you martial up the "wizard" aspect of a gish type PrC then you make a "martial" character using that so much stronger.
Zardnaar 12-28-07, 05:14 PM	Essentially I want a 10 level Abjurant champion. I know of the level 20 Abjurant champion/EK/Spellsword build buts its a poor build if you go into epic levels. I also want to discourage having to take 3 prestige classes to get it up that hi. This PrC is to replace some of the others so having it stack with Spellsword won't be a problem.
StevenO 12-28-07, 05:57 PM	Essentially I want a 10 level Abjurant champion. I know of the level 20 Abjurant champion/EK/Spellsword build buts its a poor build if you go into epic levels. I also want to discourage having to take 3 prestige classes to get it up that hi. This PrC is to replace some of the others so having it stack with Spellsword won't be a problem. This is essentially the problem and also why the Abjurant Champion isn't as "broken" as some claim it to be. Once you hit epic a PrC's BAB would no longer matter so I don't see the concern there. Expanding the Abjurant Champion itself would give it a HUGE power increase as you'd greatly expand the "legal" spells for some of its abilities. The only real problem with multiple PrC (and even multiclassing in general) is the huge frontloading of saving throws. Maybe PrCs were "special" in the first couple years after 3.0's release but since that time they have just been a thematic collection of abilities that a player can work into his character concept as desired.
Cold Napalm 12-28-07, 06:38 PM	Essentially I want a 10 level Abjurant champion. I know of the level 20 Abjurant champion/EK/Spellsword build buts its a poor build if you go into epic levels. I also want to discourage having to take 3 prestige classes to get it up that hi. This PrC is to replace some of the others so having it stack with Spellsword won't be a problem. Here's the thing...gishes kinda suck to epic. Oh well. Fighter 1/wizard 6/spellsword 1/AC 2/EK 10 is a BAB 17 with CL of 18. That is your standard going into epic gish. You can wear mithril twilight breastplate with thistledown for 0% ASF. There is no need to finagle and make up your own prestige class with a pretty good potential to mess things up even more. What I would do if I wanted to obsolete the spellsword and EK... Requirements. Feats Weapon Specialisation, (if you want to waste more feats, I suggest iron will...not combat casting which is a req for AbC). Light armor prof, medium armor prof, heavy armor prof, tower shield prof (makes some fighter variants not viable) Spells: Able to cast 3rd level arcane spells. BAB: As fighter Full spellcasting progression Hit Dice: d8 Saves. Good Fort and Will Level 1. Armored Casting (light), 2. 3. Bonus Feat 4. Armored casting (medium) 5. Spell channel 6. Bonus Feat 7. 8. Armored casting (heavy) 9. Bonus Feat 10. Duel Spell channeling Armored Casting= can cast in that type of armor. Bonus Feat: Must be selected from any Fighter bonus feat. Spell channel as per spellsword. This will obsolete the EK and the spellsword pretty effectively...and you end up losing 9th level spells. I actually like spellsword 5 personally. I do fighter 1/wizard 6(diviner usually)/spellsword 5/ABC 5/unseen seer 3. BAB 16, CL 17...and I can spell channel shapechange into the fighter...muhahahahahaha. Oh the fun...
RobbyPants 12-28-07, 06:45 PM	Essentially I want a 10 level Abjurant champion. I know of the level 20 Abjurant champion/EK/Spellsword build buts its a poor build if you go into epic levels. I also want to discourage having to take 3 prestige classes to get it up that hi. This PrC is to replace some of the others so having it stack with Spellsword won't be a problem. Personally, I think it's too much. I'd still suggest full casting and 3/4 BAB. You can still get some pretty decent combos out. Conisder either: Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/New Eldritch Knight 7 or Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/New Eldritch Knight 8 The first gives you BAB 15 and CL 19 and the second gives you BAB 16 and CL 18.
Cold Napalm 12-28-07, 06:53 PM	Personally, I think it's too much. I'd still suggest full casting and 3/4 BAB. You can still get some pretty decent combos out. Conisder either: Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/New Eldritch Knight 7 or Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/New Eldritch Knight 8 The first gives you BAB 15 and CL 19 and the second gives you BAB 16 and CL 18. Those wont make the new EK req which needs fighter 4 (weapon spec).
StevenO 12-28-07, 08:19 PM	By the time you make a "gish" PrC that has Weapon Specialization as a prereq you should accept that the character is either a munchkin or never will be a great spellcaster. The +5 BAB prereq for the AbC is certainly a balancing point as that leaves a character with two choices; either go for light casting and a good BAB to get in ASAP or go with a more caster heavy build that will get in later. Throwing out a Weapon Specialization prereq IS saying you will be a 4th level fighter which makes the choice for you and doesn't leavy you much room for anything else. If you are a fighter who just dables with magic you shouldn't need full casting.
Cold Napalm 12-28-07, 08:20 PM	By the time you make a "gish" PrC that has Weapon Specialization as a prereq you should accept that the character is either a munchkin or never will be a great spellcaster. The +6 BAB prereq for the AbC is certainly a balancing point as that leaves a character with two choices; either go for light casting and a good BAB to get in ASAP or go with a more caster heavy build that will get in later. Throwing out a Weapon Specialization prereq IS saying you will be a 4th level fighter which makes the choice for you and doesn't leavy you much room for anything else. If you are a fighter who just dables with magic you shouldn't need full casting. Why do I see +6...it's +5 bab req unless they upped it in the errata.
archerpwr 12-28-07, 08:58 PM	EK is not obsolete. You just haven't had someone play iconic gish number three in your campaign yet: 1) Pally 2/ Sorc 4/ Spellsword 1/ AC 5/ Sacred exorcist 8 2) Wiz 6/ Swiftblade 10/ AC 4 3) Ftr 1/ Wiz 6/ SS 1/ AC 5/ EK 7 EK isn't obsolete, it's just less entertaining filler +bab +CL than most. If it's being used in an "iconic" build, it isn't obsolete.
StevenO 12-28-07, 11:26 PM	Why do I see +6...it's +5 bab req unless they upped it in the errata. Your right, I was sleeping when I said +6. Perhaps I was thinking about some of the other warrior tained with magic PrC that are around when I said that. That still makes somebody's idea of a PrC entry at Ftr4/Wiz5 total pointless which I already knew. Instead of being 9th level with a +7 BAB and caster level of 5 you't take Ftr4/Wiz2/AbC3 for those nine levels and have a +8 BAB, the same five caster levels, and trade up 3d4 HD for 3d10.
RobbyPants 01-02-08, 02:17 PM	Those wont make the new EK req which needs fighter 4 (weapon spec). Yeah, I guess this latest version is entirly different than what I was picturing. In that case, the builds I posted wouldn't make any sense. The version I was posting about was pretty much 3/4 BAB and full casting with nothing else (assuming the old EK prereqs). I guess I see little reason to take any form of gish PrC that requires more than a single caster-level loss and/or loses several more throught the class itself.
bkdubs123 01-05-08, 03:32 PM	I'm actually kind of interested in working on a 3/4 bab full caster PrC. I think I might get to it soon.
bkdubs123 01-05-08, 03:34 PM	I'm actually kind of interested in working on a 3/4 bab full caster PrC. I think I might get to it soon.
RobbyPants 01-07-08, 12:04 PM	I'm actually kind of interested in working on a 3/4 bab full caster PrC. I think I might get to it soon. Well, the Sacred Exorsist (Complete Divine) and Unseen Seer (Complete Mage) are both good examples of similar existing classes. Take a look at both of them. Their prereqs are a bit high, but that's mostly because of the very specific flavor of both classes and the potent abilities you get. If you're looking to make a more generic PrC (something similar to the Eldritch Knight), then you can probably lower the prereqs a bit at the cost of some of the special abilities.