Eldritch Knight [Archive] - Wizards Community

Eldritch Knight [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aloki
07-18-07, 07:54 PM for the Eldritch Knight PrC from the DMG, it says "Proficient with all martial weapons", would it be broken to change it to "Weapon Focus in a Martial Weapon"?
Erato
07-18-07, 08:00 PM Since the Eldritch Knight has been surpassed by other gish types, I guess it could stand a little upgrade. On the other hand, this means elves only need to spend a feat to enter, which might be a little much.
StevenO
07-18-07, 08:05 PM Maybe.

The "Proficient in All Martial Weapons" requirement is there to basically force a character into taking a class that grants that. VERY few classes with spellcasting, especially +1 arcane spellcasting which works best with wizard or sorcerer, offer up proficiency with all martial weapons which effectively makes the character give up a second casting level to qualify for Eldritch Knight. Just requiring Weapon Focus in a martial weapon makes it much easier for a character to enter without losing that "prerequ" spellcasting level as there are a lot of ways to get proficiency with a single martial weapon.
StevenO
07-18-07, 08:11 PM Since the Eldritch Knight has been surpassed by other gish types, I guess it could stand a little upgrade. On the other hand, this means elves only need to spend a feat to enter, which might be a little much.
If the DM is generous I believe there is a regional feat somewhere in the Realms material ("Militia" I think) that could be taken at first level which grants proficiency in all martial weapons. I'd agree there are other warrior/arcanist PrCs that offer more than the Eldritch Knight but the EK is still so clean compared to the rest that I'd still want a character to "pay their dues" with a martial class to enter it.

Incidently, the Dragon Slayer (Draconomicon) can be entered by a straight spellcaster and grants proficiency in all martial weapons along with granting a +1 Spellcasting advancement and a +1 BAB. It doesn't work so well with the EK however as the BAB requirements are a bit steep just like the are for the Abjurant Champion which keeps full casters from entering them early.
Aloki
07-18-07, 08:29 PM I'm the DM, and yes, it is the Militia feat. The reason iwas asking is because one of my players was wanting to play an Eldritch Knight. Although, he might like the Dragonslayer... Oh, and what book is Spellsword in?
Artifact
07-18-07, 08:38 PM Since the Eldritch Knight has been surpassed by other gish types, I guess it could stand a little upgrade. On the other hand, this means elves only need to spend a feat to enter, which might be a little much.

I have a quick question: I'm assuming you mean the EK has been surpassed by builds that are possible using "character optimization" rules. Also known as "min/max", these rules often require the admittance of many various accessories in order to work.

Is it commonly accepted that the EK is "balanced" (for lack of a better word) using only the core rules? Or is the EK typically considered an inferior build, no matter what rules are used? I run a core only game, so I'm really curious how it all works out.

If someone can fill me in real quick, I'd appreciate it. Please don't let my question drag the thread off topic however; that wouldn't be cool ;).
Aloki
07-18-07, 08:43 PM He meant other PrC's like the Spellsword (i found it, it is in Complete warrior), and Dragonslayer are for lack of a better word "better" because they do more than grant you a full BAB and full spellcasting.
Erato
07-18-07, 10:33 PM I have a quick question: I'm assuming you mean the EK has been surpassed by builds that are possible using "character optimization" rules. Also known as "min/max", these rules often require the admittance of many various accessories in order to work.
I was talking more about new options for gishes, rather than builds. And of course these things require the admittance of more books outside core, because new material tend to take the form of more books outside core.
That being said, the EK can still be useful, espically if you forbid dipping.
Is it commonly accepted that the EK is "balanced" (for lack of a better word) using only the core rules? Or is the EK typically considered an inferior build, no matter what rules are used? I run a core only game, so I'm really curious how it all works out.
Normally, a gish is weaker than a full caster. But in core only, an EK losing only two caster levels can probably still surpass many non-casters.
He meant other PrC's like the Spellsword (i found it, it is in Complete warrior), and Dragonslayer are for lack of a better word "better" because they do more than grant you a full BAB and full spellcasting.
"She" actually ;) , and yes, things like those classes and Abjurant Champion was what I meant
dknight100
07-18-07, 10:44 PM I'd just like to say, i find the Eldritch Knight to not deserve the bad rag its gotten. while it is very plain compared to some PrC's that merge caster and tank, and doesn't have high HD, it still lends itself to nice customisation.

Basically, it has mostly full caster advancement, which is very nice - you only miss one level. For armour proficiency, while i don't like giving up my builds.... 1 level of duskblade. That one level will also qualify you for Improved Toughness, which I consider an almost must for all characters. Yes, one level of duskblade only gets you light armour, and not shields. High dex (helps with ranged touch too, and just plain shooting people with a bow), weapon finesse as your 1st level EK feat, wear Mithril Breastplate, and cast Shield (i just keep scrolls of shield, set to caster level 5 ready).

Its not a wild out there prestige class with all sorts of wierd powers, but its a solid contribution that shouldnt really be scoffed at for someone who just wants to increase their martial power as well as their wizard levels.
runestar
07-18-07, 10:56 PM Complete mage has the abjurant champion, which gets special abilities in addition to full casting/bab advancement.

3 lvs of spellsword grant the same benefit as 3 lvs of EK, in addition to reducing ASF from armour.

EK just comes up as a bit "meh" compared to them.
StevenO
07-18-07, 11:32 PM He meant other PrC's like the Spellsword (i found it, it is in Complete warrior), and Dragonslayer are for lack of a better word "better" because they do more than grant you a full BAB and full spellcasting.
A warning here, the Spellsword and Dragon Slayer have only half spellcasting progressions. It is just that they get spellcasting on odd levels to go with their full BAB.

The Spellsword is even more firmly entrenched in requiring a martial class (read that as losing an arcane casting level) because it also requires proficiency in all three basic armor types. Abjurant Champion may be the gish PrC of choice but I don't think it is too bad as it takes a +5 BAB to get in which means you can get into EK sooner while enjoying a higher casting ability. I really like the AbC because it allows a warrior to get by with a one level arcane dip to enter this and then build its spellcasting to the point it can enter Spellsword or Eldritch Knight.

As printed EK is a fine, if incredibly boring, class. If only dedicating a few levels to it there are better classes but taken to four or more levels it can be an important part of a character's developement.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aloki 07-18-07, 07:54 PM	for the Eldritch Knight PrC from the DMG, it says "Proficient with all martial weapons", would it be broken to change it to "Weapon Focus in a Martial Weapon"?
Erato 07-18-07, 08:00 PM	Since the Eldritch Knight has been surpassed by other gish types, I guess it could stand a little upgrade. On the other hand, this means elves only need to spend a feat to enter, which might be a little much.
StevenO 07-18-07, 08:05 PM	Maybe. The "Proficient in All Martial Weapons" requirement is there to basically force a character into taking a class that grants that. VERY few classes with spellcasting, especially +1 arcane spellcasting which works best with wizard or sorcerer, offer up proficiency with all martial weapons which effectively makes the character give up a second casting level to qualify for Eldritch Knight. Just requiring Weapon Focus in a martial weapon makes it much easier for a character to enter without losing that "prerequ" spellcasting level as there are a lot of ways to get proficiency with a single martial weapon.
StevenO 07-18-07, 08:11 PM	Since the Eldritch Knight has been surpassed by other gish types, I guess it could stand a little upgrade. On the other hand, this means elves only need to spend a feat to enter, which might be a little much. If the DM is generous I believe there is a regional feat somewhere in the Realms material ("Militia" I think) that could be taken at first level which grants proficiency in all martial weapons. I'd agree there are other warrior/arcanist PrCs that offer more than the Eldritch Knight but the EK is still so clean compared to the rest that I'd still want a character to "pay their dues" with a martial class to enter it. Incidently, the Dragon Slayer (Draconomicon) can be entered by a straight spellcaster and grants proficiency in all martial weapons along with granting a +1 Spellcasting advancement and a +1 BAB. It doesn't work so well with the EK however as the BAB requirements are a bit steep just like the are for the Abjurant Champion which keeps full casters from entering them early.
Aloki 07-18-07, 08:29 PM	I'm the DM, and yes, it is the Militia feat. The reason iwas asking is because one of my players was wanting to play an Eldritch Knight. Although, he might like the Dragonslayer... Oh, and what book is Spellsword in?
Artifact 07-18-07, 08:38 PM	Since the Eldritch Knight has been surpassed by other gish types, I guess it could stand a little upgrade. On the other hand, this means elves only need to spend a feat to enter, which might be a little much. I have a quick question: I'm assuming you mean the EK has been surpassed by builds that are possible using "character optimization" rules. Also known as "min/max", these rules often require the admittance of many various accessories in order to work. Is it commonly accepted that the EK is "balanced" (for lack of a better word) using only the core rules? Or is the EK typically considered an inferior build, no matter what rules are used? I run a core only game, so I'm really curious how it all works out. If someone can fill me in real quick, I'd appreciate it. Please don't let my question drag the thread off topic however; that wouldn't be cool ;).
Aloki 07-18-07, 08:43 PM	He meant other PrC's like the Spellsword (i found it, it is in Complete warrior), and Dragonslayer are for lack of a better word "better" because they do more than grant you a full BAB and full spellcasting.
Erato 07-18-07, 10:33 PM	I have a quick question: I'm assuming you mean the EK has been surpassed by builds that are possible using "character optimization" rules. Also known as "min/max", these rules often require the admittance of many various accessories in order to work. I was talking more about new options for gishes, rather than builds. And of course these things require the admittance of more books outside core, because new material tend to take the form of more books outside core. That being said, the EK can still be useful, espically if you forbid dipping. Is it commonly accepted that the EK is "balanced" (for lack of a better word) using only the core rules? Or is the EK typically considered an inferior build, no matter what rules are used? I run a core only game, so I'm really curious how it all works out. Normally, a gish is weaker than a full caster. But in core only, an EK losing only two caster levels can probably still surpass many non-casters. He meant other PrC's like the Spellsword (i found it, it is in Complete warrior), and Dragonslayer are for lack of a better word "better" because they do more than grant you a full BAB and full spellcasting. "She" actually ;) , and yes, things like those classes and Abjurant Champion was what I meant
dknight100 07-18-07, 10:44 PM	I'd just like to say, i find the Eldritch Knight to not deserve the bad rag its gotten. while it is very plain compared to some PrC's that merge caster and tank, and doesn't have high HD, it still lends itself to nice customisation. Basically, it has mostly full caster advancement, which is very nice - you only miss one level. For armour proficiency, while i don't like giving up my builds.... 1 level of duskblade. That one level will also qualify you for Improved Toughness, which I consider an almost must for all characters. Yes, one level of duskblade only gets you light armour, and not shields. High dex (helps with ranged touch too, and just plain shooting people with a bow), weapon finesse as your 1st level EK feat, wear Mithril Breastplate, and cast Shield (i just keep scrolls of shield, set to caster level 5 ready). Its not a wild out there prestige class with all sorts of wierd powers, but its a solid contribution that shouldnt really be scoffed at for someone who just wants to increase their martial power as well as their wizard levels.
runestar 07-18-07, 10:56 PM	Complete mage has the abjurant champion, which gets special abilities in addition to full casting/bab advancement. 3 lvs of spellsword grant the same benefit as 3 lvs of EK, in addition to reducing ASF from armour. EK just comes up as a bit "meh" compared to them.
StevenO 07-18-07, 11:32 PM	He meant other PrC's like the Spellsword (i found it, it is in Complete warrior), and Dragonslayer are for lack of a better word "better" because they do more than grant you a full BAB and full spellcasting. A warning here, the Spellsword and Dragon Slayer have only half spellcasting progressions. It is just that they get spellcasting on odd levels to go with their full BAB. The Spellsword is even more firmly entrenched in requiring a martial class (read that as losing an arcane casting level) because it also requires proficiency in all three basic armor types. Abjurant Champion may be the gish PrC of choice but I don't think it is too bad as it takes a +5 BAB to get in which means you can get into EK sooner while enjoying a higher casting ability. I really like the AbC because it allows a warrior to get by with a one level arcane dip to enter this and then build its spellcasting to the point it can enter Spellsword or Eldritch Knight. As printed EK is a fine, if incredibly boring, class. If only dedicating a few levels to it there are better classes but taken to four or more levels it can be an important part of a character's developement.