Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nonsi 09-10-07, 09:55 AM	An Eldritch Nexus is a living breathing being of unparalleled innate access to spontaneous magic, combining eldritch, arcane and divine spellcasting into one perfect spontaneous wielder of magic. An Eldritch Nexus has one distinct ethos – the glorification of magic in all its aspects. This does not, however, tie his hands to act against his alignment and aimlessly invoke magical effects. Requirements: Class Features: Eldritch Blast; Detect Magic; able to spontaneously cast 4 1st-level arcane spells and 4 1st-level divine spells. Invocations: must know at least 2 least invocations, one of which must have more than one aspect (e.g. Entropic Warding). Skills: Concentration 6, Knowledge (arcana / religion / the planes) 4 ranks each, Spellcraft 6, UMD 6. Feats: Must have taken at least one of: Eschew Materials (PHB) / Energy Substitution (CA). Also must have taken at least one of: Combat Casting (PHB) / Somatic Weaponry (CM). Also must have taken at least one of: Insightful (CM) / Night Haunt (CM) / Spell Hand (CM). Special: BAB: poor Saves: good Will, poor Fort & Ref. Hit Die: d6 Skill Points: 2 + INT-mod Class Skills: Concentration, Decipher Script, Knowledge (arcane / religion / the planes), Spellcraft, UMD. Invocations: An Eldritch Nexus continues advancing his access to new invocations and his Eldritch Blast progression. Furthermore, His Detect Magic class feature is as potent as his ECL. Spells Known: An Eldritch Nexus continues advancing his spellcasting knowledge in both arcane and divine magic and uses separate tables for his spells known – one for his arcane spellcasting class and one for his divine spellcasting class. Spells Allotment: For each spell level an Eldritch Nexus can cast, he uses either his arcane or divine caster's spells-per-day allotment – whichever is higher. Special class features by level: 1 – Armored Casting, Domain: Magic 2 – Advanced Learning 3 – Bonus Feat 4 – Advanced Learning 5 – Spellblast * 6 – Advanced Learning 7 – Eldritch Spellweave * 8 – Advanced Learning 9 – Bonus Feat 10 – Advanced Learning 11 – Greatreach Blast * 12 – Advanced Learning 13 – Zone of Magical Splendor 14 – Advanced Learning Armored Casting – Compensating for his "late blooming", an Eldritch Nexus adapts to cast arcane spells in light armor with no risk of spell failure. Domain: Magic – Granted Power is calculated against the Eldritch Nexus's ECL. Advanced Learning – The Eldritch Nexus further increases his spells' repertoire. Using this class feature, he can select a single spell to add to his spells known. The spell can be either arcane or divine. Bonus Feat – Select any feat specifically designed for spellcasters except from the category of item creation feats. * – As detailed for the Eldritch Theurge. Zone of Magical Splendor – once per day, as a full round action, an Eldritch Nexus can momentarily create a 5' radius field, centered on himself, that suppresses antimagic of all kinds. This ability can also be initiated from within antimagic. This affected area sheds a dim yellow light and lasts for 3 rounds plus 1 round per charisma modifier of the Eldritch Nexus. In case an Eldritch Nexus has an Antimagic Field on, using this ability automatically dismisses it. Timeless Body – Same as the Monk's Perfect Self class feature. Playing an Eldritch Nexus: Magic is a wonderful thing, an art in its purest and most refined form. The two most wonderful things about it are diversity and usefulness. Personal power is nice, but it's secondary. An Eldritch Nexus would strive to increase the variety of things he can do with magic before anything else. Eldritch Nexuses prefer refining the magic within them over anything else, so it's quite uncommon to encounter one who practices more than one item creation feat. Also, being aware of their superiority to others when it comes to magical availability, they are quite indifferent about sharing magical items with "less fortunate" allies and friends. The only exceptions are protective items, which they need so badly to level their low survivability. They tend to somewhat look down on non-spontaneous spellcasters, especially those that "push the envelope" in a never ending search for personal power, not taking the time to "fully appreciate magic for what it really is".
StevenO 09-10-07, 12:25 PM	Still as confusing. I presume the Prereqs are just sanitized versions of Sorcerer1 /Favored Soul1/Warlock4. I'd say this class is even more broken than the last attempt if it actually received any spells which I'm sure it is intended to even though it does not. As written (pre-edit) SPELLS ALLOTMENT doesn't increase your spellcasting past the entry requirements; this character may know all kinds of spells but it looks like it only has a few 1st level slots to use them. If "fixed" to work as I believe it is intended you're back to giving the class way too many spells to work with. If it would work as intended you'd give up two levels of Invocations and many other warlock goodies for the ability to cast a number of spells as a 15th level spontaneous caster drawn from more spells than a basic wizard should have access too.
Khatoblepas 09-10-07, 12:57 PM	Requirements: Class Features: Eldritch Blast; Detect Magic; able to spontaneously cast 4 1st-level arcane spells and 4 1st-level divine spells. You don't need to state how many they can cast, only that they can cast spells of that level. Invocations: must know at least 2 least invocations, one of which must have more than one aspect (e.g. Entropic Warding). What does this mean? Aspect? Feats: Must have taken at least one of: Eschew Materials (PHB) / Energy Substitution (CA). Also must have taken at least one of: Combat Casting (PHB) / Somatic Weaponry (CM). Also must have taken at least one of: Insightful (CM) / Night Haunt (CM) / Spell Hand (CM). Psst, Night Haunt and Spell Hand are in Complete Arcane :P. Better feats, though :) Invocations: An Eldritch Nexus continues advancing his access to new invocations and his Eldritch Blast progression. Furthermore, His Detect Magic class feature is as potent as his ECL. CL, Warlock levels + levels in this prestige class, or HD. Not ECL, as ECL is HD+LA, which doesn't make sense for monsters. Spells Allotment: For each spell level an Eldritch Nexus can cast, he uses either his arcane or divine caster's spells-per-day allotment – whichever is higher. By RAW he'd never get any more spells-per-day. Use the one originating in the DMG, it's there for a reason - I don't understand this at all - it's... what is it? You get the spells per day of whichever class has the most? Do you have to share divine and arcane spell slots? o_O So you have a high amount of spells known but a single list of slots? Domain: Magic – Granted Power is calculated against the Eldritch Nexus's ECL. Again, HD, or class level. Not ECL. Advanced Learning – The Eldritch Nexus further increases his spells' repertoire. Using this class feature, he can select a single spell to add to his spells known. The spell can be either arcane or divine. Off of which list? Sorc/Wiz & Cleric? Or is druid okay? Archivist? Domain spells? Bonus Feat – Select any feat specifically designed for spellcasters except from the category of item creation feats. You are handing out bonus feats like candy, as well as triple casting. Lose these. All in all, needs less Warlock Invocation giving. Full EB maybe, but lose the bonus feats and replace them with custom invocations, like the Celestial Warlock class in CM.
nonsi 09-10-07, 01:51 PM	You don't need to state how many they can cast, only that they can cast spells of that level. Yes, but the previous version could be taken with Warlock 4 / FS 1 / Sorc 1, which would make the Warlock lose only 2 levels. I tried to find some formula to make it Warlock 2 / FS 2 / Sorc 2, but the latter two have nothing going at 2nd level other than an extra spell slots. (maybe I should've written "daily", but other than that, I don't se any other relevant requirement). What does this mean? Aspect? It means that the invocation does more than one thing (warding missiles and warding detection). I'll try to come up with a better description. Psst, Night Haunt and Spell Hand are in Complete Arcane :P. Better feats, though :) Thanks for pointing that out. CL, Warlock levels + levels in this prestige class, or HD. Not ECL, as ECL is HD+LA, which doesn't make sense for monsters. Since "Class Levels" means "levels gained in the PrC", How do you say "presicely ECL - racial HD - LA" ? By RAW he'd never get any more spells-per-day. Use the one originating in the DMG, it's there for a reason - I don't understand this at all - it's... what is it? You get the spells per day of whichever class has the most? Do you have to share divine and arcane spell slots? o_O So you have a high amount of spells known but a single list of slots? I meant (guess you figured that one ;) )........ you advance your spell-levels availability for both classes separately and for each spell-level you merge spells-per-day according to the spell-slots of the class that gets more. Off of which list? Sorc/Wiz & Cleric? Or is druid okay? Archivist? Domain spells? Could be appropriate for the classes that lead to this PrC, but given that Sorc/Wiz & Cleric lists already contain the most powerful spells available, I don't see what harm could come from making Advanced Learning enable you to select from any character's spell list that goes all the way to 9th level spells (it's not like Ironwood is the most broken 6th level spell out there). You are handing out bonus feats like candy, as well as triple casting. Lose these. All in all, needs less Warlock Invocation giving. Full EB maybe, but lose the bonus feats and replace them with custom invocations, like the Celestial Warlock class in CM. The idea is to be able to do more and more different things rather than getting something specific, but I'd be more than happy to here what you had in mind. Regarding the Warlock Invocation... This class already loses 4 Invoker levels. This means that the 1st dark invokation is gained only at level 20. Being so thin on cholesterol in terms of crunch, I don't see why the Eldritch Nexus should be further nerfed. All in all, thanks. Some things have been clarified and some I now know need clarification :) If "fixed" to work as I believe it is intended you're back to giving the class way too many spells to work with. How many more compared to Wiz 3 / Druid 3 / Arcane Hierophant 10 / Mystic Theurge 4 ? Does the Eldritch Nexus's repertoire difference scale more than what is offsetted by the steady spell-level delay and having just 1 spells-per-day list and not having Wild Shape ? I'm not sure. How many more compared to Cleric 5 / Divine Oracle 2 / Contemplative 7 / Radiant Servant of Pelor 6 (slippery mind, Evasion in full plate, immunity to disease & poison, SR, 4 extra domains, reinforced healing, undead turning...) ? Does the Eldritch Nexus's repertoire difference scale more than what is offsetted by the 2 or 3 spell-level delay (from being practically 5 levels behind) and having none of this combo's array of special abilities ? I'm not sure. And how is it measured (not only in spells) against the Fochlucan Lyrist ? And how is it measured against a Frenzied Berzerker that has high WIS, 3 combat style feats (that's +4 Will-save), +6 WIZ-mod from magical items, morale bonuses, Iron Will........ ? (Come to think of it, I think Righteous Fury bypasses this probler altogether) And that's even befor we even begin attempting to breake the game. The Eldritch Nexus has nothing more to break as far as I can tell. If I'm missing something, please let me know.
rampant 09-10-07, 02:16 PM	Maybe if you give an example of spell allotment in action? I'm still not quite sure what it does. Do the spell weaves apply to both arcane and divine spells? since its modeled on the eldritch theurge, and that version applies to arcane you might want to actually type your version in. Does this class need to be 14 levels for some reason?
nonsi 09-10-07, 02:35 PM	Maybe if you give an example of spell allotment in action? I'm still not quite sure what it does. Do the spell weaves apply to both arcane and divine spells? since its modeled on the eldritch theurge, and that version applies to arcane you might want to actually type your version in. Taking the most intuitive build for this PrC (Warlock 2 / FS 2 / Sorc 2) as a a 6th level Eldritch Nexus, you're affectively an 8th level Sorc and 8th level FS. Therefore... as Sorc you have: [8, 5, 3 ,2 ,1] spells known and [6, 6, 6, 5, 3] spells per day. as FS you have: [8, 6, 5 ,4 ,3] spells known and [6, 6, 6, 5, 3] spells per day. ... therefore, you have [16 (if there are 16), 11, 8, 6, 4] spells known and [6, 6, 6, 5, 3] spells per day. And you can cast any of your spells as arcare or divine - whichever suits your mood (if it ever makes a difference). Does this class need to be 14 levels for some reason? No more than Disciple of the Void needs to be 13 and PrCed Bard/Paladin/Ranger need to be 15. And it's convenient that you don't need to improvise until you get epic. This PrC is low crunch as it is.
rampant 09-10-07, 03:05 PM	Ok then spell alotment actually hurts you then. Next issue is if they can cast as arcane or divine on a whim then they don't need armored casting.
nonsi 09-10-07, 03:24 PM	Ok then spell alotment actually hurts you then. Which is exactly where Advanced Learning and [Domain: Magic] come in. Just because you can't be a full aspect spontaneous caster and know all the list. Next issue is if they can cast as arcane or divine on a whim then they don't need armored casting. Ok, but does it have any other aspect, say like hot it affects the caster's targets (living or otherwise) ?
rampant 09-10-07, 04:03 PM	Ummmmm no Advanced learning is more spells known, so is magic domain. As it stands You'd be better off with mixing the warlock theurge PrC's from the Complete mage, with mstic theurge or something. Honestly I don't think you need that spell alotment ability. Its benefits are redundent considering the other class abilities and prequisites, and it signifigantly hinders the number of spells per day you have which is the one advantage to these theurge spellcasters, they cant cast alot of 8-9th level spells, but the levels they can cast at they can toss around like parade candy.
nonsi 09-10-07, 05:13 PM	Ummmmm no Advanced learning is more spells known, so is magic domain. As it stands You'd be better off with mixing the warlock theurge PrC's from the Complete mage, with mstic theurge or something. Honestly I don't think you need that spell alotment ability. Its benefits are redundent considering the other class abilities and prequisites, and it signifigantly hinders the number of spells per day you have which is the one advantage to these theurge spellcasters, they cant cast alot of 8-9th level spells, but the levels they can cast at they can toss around like parade candy. So what you're actually saying, is that given the level set back, it would be reasonable enough for the Eldritch Nexus to just have separate advancement routs, casting arcane spells according to his arcane spellcaster class and divine spells according to his divine spellcaster class, like the Mystic Theurge for instance ? (that's my basic intuition btw, but maybe I was just too careful)
rampant 09-10-07, 05:59 PM	Yes. Use abilties to bring the spells together when you use them. Don't go all crazy mucking with the spells per day. and stuff. Now if you were going to create a class that favored one casting class over the others, you know one that encouraged Warlock 1/Favored soul 4/ sor 1 then that might be different. As it is you want to encourage Warlock2/Fsl2/Sor2 so the abilities should reflect the preference of that build. the magic domain ability do you just get the granted power of that domain or do you add it spells known to your divine spells known?
nonsi 09-10-07, 07:29 PM	Yes. Use abilties to bring the spells together when you use them. Don't go all crazy mucking with the spells per day. and stuff. Taking the Sorc and FS, what else have I got to work with at lvel 2, for either of them ? Now if you were going to create a class that favored one casting class over the others, you know one that encouraged Warlock 1/Favored soul 4/ sor 1 then that might be different. As it is you want to encourage Warlock2/Fsl2/Sor2 so the abilities should reflect the preference of that build. Again, which abilities (or abilities to do what) ? The only other class feature that changes for both, is getting another 0-level known spell, and that's just as awkward. I could say "has to have at least 15 known spells overall", but then we're back at the [FS 3 / Sorc 1] issue. The only other option would be "has to have at least 7 arcane spells known and 7 divine spells known overall". the magic domain ability do you just get the granted power of that domain or do you add it spells known to your divine spells known? I guess just having them added to the list of known spells wouldn't be too much (but no extra spell slots for domain spells). As for the granted power, I could simply tie it to the sum of his invoker + arcane + divine + PrC levels.
rampant 09-10-07, 07:51 PM	When I said "use abilities to bring spells together when you use them" I meant the abilities of the PrC like the Spellweave ability. As to the different builds what I was getting at was with the 1/4/1 build then the spell merging of spell allotment might be a good idea, but you said you wanted to encourage 2/2/2 so that ability is a bad idea.
StevenO 09-10-07, 09:03 PM	Yes, but the previous version could be taken with Warlock 4 / FS 1 / Sorc 1, which would make the Warlock lose only 2 levels. I tried to find some formula to make it Warlock 2 / FS 2 / Sorc 2, but the latter two have nothing going at 2nd level other than an extra spell slots. (maybe I should've written "daily", but other than that, I don't se any other relevant requirement). The redesign may be for a 2/2/2 split but it is still easy enough to do with 4/1/1 split. Having a bonus 1st level spell to go with the standard three is VERY likely. Although trying to strip two more Warlock levels does hurt it you also make the spellcasting sideS that much stronger. How many more compared to Wiz 3 / Druid 3 / Arcane Hierophant 10 / Mystic Theurge 4 ? Does the Eldritch Nexus's repertoire difference scale more than what is offsetted by the steady spell-level delay and having just 1 spells-per-day list and not having Wild Shape ? I'm not sure. How many more compared to Cleric 5 / Divine Oracle 2 / Contemplative 7 / Radiant Servant of Pelor 6 (slippery mind, Evasion in full plate, immunity to disease & poison, SR, 4 extra domains, reinforced healing, undead turning...) ? Does the Eldritch Nexus's repertoire difference scale more than what is offsetted by the 2 or 3 spell-level delay (from being practically 5 levels behind) and having none of this combo's array of special abilities ? I'm not sure. And how is it measured (not only in spells) against the Fochlucan Lyrist ? And how is it measured against a Frenzied Berzerker that has high WIS, 3 combat style feats (that's +4 Will-save), +6 WIZ-mod from magical items, morale bonuses, Iron Will........ ? (Come to think of it, I think Righteous Fury bypasses this probler altogether) And that's even befor we even begin attempting to breake the game. The Eldritch Nexus has nothing more to break as far as I can tell. If I read the intent correctly you'd have a 20th level character with Invocations at 16th level and spontaneous casting of a 16th level character but the spells are drawn from two pools of spells known. Most other multicaster PrCs would allow an even split of 15/15 (basic MT, Hierophant, True Necromancer, Eldritch Theurge), 15/14 (Eldritch Disciple), 14/13 (Ultimate Magus) while this is 16/16+. Granted the split on most of these can be adjusted up on one side while lowering the other (to reflex concentrated study after finishing the PrC instead of splitting future enhancements) you may be fixed like the 14 level True Necromancer but your base is higher and your spontaneous casting draws from twice the pools of spells normally available. I admit there are ways to abuse most of the classes either by stacking on another class that advances multiple casting types, namely you 17/17 Hierophant/MT build, or by using other PrCs with advanced spellcasting progressions like the Ur-Priest. Just looking at the other two warlock classes you have higher level invocations along with higher level spellcasting but your spellcasting is twice as versatile. I don't see how this can be compared to Cleric 5/ DO2/ Cont7/ RSoP6. All that casting goes to one class and while you gain access to a large number of abilites your spell selection isn't much greater. You may have four more domains with granted powers that can be useful (or not if they are based on cleric level) but you still only have one domain spell slot to prepare; all those domains makes that domain slot closer to a normal slot but it doesn't actually give you more spells per day and probably doesn't add much to your availability. As this is a powerful cleric build I don't see why it should compare to the attempted multicaster PrC, similiarly I don't see what a warrior build with Frenzied Berserker has to do with any of these casting PrCs. The Fochlucan Lyrist is absolutely broken? Full BAB and full casting for both types it must be broken. It may be if you can survive meeting the prereqs and use some of those other PrC with advanced spellcasting but for a "normal" character those prereqs leave the class needing something. The Lyrist needs Druid 1, bardic knowledge, arcane casting 1st, evasion, and a huge pile of skills including Perform 13 which can generally mean you need Rogue2/Druid1/Bard1(3 to meet the arcane casting requirement)/ other 6 to qualify. In getting those qualifications your BAB will be horrible and your casting abilities aren't going to be the greatest. My apologies if this is uncalled for but P.E.A.C.H. is asking for crique not just looking for support for a class that really should not be.
nonsi 09-11-07, 03:42 AM	My apologies if this is uncalled for but P.E.A.C.H. is asking for crique not just looking for support for a class that really should not be. By all means, no apologies required. I said P.E.A.C.H. and I meant P.E.A.C.H. The redesign may be for a 2/2/2 split but it is still easy enough to do with 4/1/1 split. Having a bonus 1st level spell to go with the standard three is VERY likely. Although trying to strip two more Warlock levels does hurt it you also make the spellcasting sideS that much stronger. Problems are solved. I just noticed that one of the requirements for Acolyte of the Skin is "caster level 5th". Now there's no problem requiring "invoker level 2nd, arcane caster level 2nd and divine caster level 2nd". If I read the intent correctly you'd have a 20th level character with Invocations at 16th level and spontaneous casting of a 16th level character but the spells are drawn from two pools of spells known. That's actually more equivalent to 15th, because of the spontaneous casters' spell-level delay. As far as invoker - that's 2d6 damage set back and gaining just 1/3 of what a full fledged Warlock gets in dark invocations. Moreover, It's a common error to just look at the top levels and disregard the entire process leading to it. Compare the characters' potential at each class level. Moreover, the only problem with Eldritch Disciple/Theurge is that they don't currently have other synergetic PrCs to go with the momentum (and probbably won't have, now that 4e is around the corner). But along the way, when making level by level comparisins, they beat the proposed Eldritch Nexus by 1/2 a mile or so in terms of crunch. Most other multicaster PrCs would allow an even split of 15/15 Sadly, PrCs were/are not born equal. (basic MT, Hierophant, True Necromancer, Eldritch Theurge), 15/14 (Eldritch Disciple), 14/13 (Ultimate Magus) while this is 16/16+. The key word in this case is "basic". Nothing stops you from gizzagging and pushing forward. It's the gizzagging I'm trying to avoid. Just looking at the other two warlock classes you have higher level invocations along with higher level spellcasting but your spellcasting is twice as versatile. That's right. Versatility at the expense of raw power. Seems like a fair tradeoff to me. The Fochlucan Lyrist can get 14th level spellcasting + evasion + bardic music + fantastic skills + great BAB (or great saves without using fractionals) + animal companion...... and there's nothing to stop it from advancing forward - without gizzagging. I don't see how this can be compared to Cleric 5/ DO2/ Cont7/ RSoP6. All that casting goes to one class and while you gain access to a large number of abilites your spell selection isn't much greater. 6 granted powers from domains + Evasion (in full plate) + Slippery Mind + Disease/Poison Immunity + decent SR + powerful healing + full Cleric spellcasting (practically 5 levels ahead of the Eldritch Nexus) + 6 arcane spells per spell-level to choose from daily + mean saves + scrying bonus + trapsense + self healing without concentration + Saves bonus to everyone in 10'. And the Eldritch Nexus is way more skill taxing and way more skill starved. I say the Eldritch Nexus is not even in the competition pre-epic. I don't see what a warrior build with Frenzied Berserker has to do with any of these casting PrCs. Just as an example of how you break the game. I'd be surprised if you could do something similar with the Eldritch Nexus.
Khatoblepas 09-11-07, 01:13 PM	Just as an example of how you break the game. I'd be surprised if you could do something similar with the Eldritch Nexus. As you seem to be comparing loads of multiclass builds with this one, how about: Kobold Warlock 2/Sorc 3/Favored Soul 1/Eldritch Nexus 7/Sacred Exorcist 8 9th level Arcane spells, 4th level Divine Spells, 9th level Warlock being. As you're casting divine spells in arcane slots, you should have plenty. Pick up Bite of the Werebear, Divine Power, and Extra Spell (Righteous Might) later on. After all, you can cast 5th level spells, so you can learn it. Melee kobold it up. Oh, and don't forget to pick up all the Trapsmith's best spells (Greater Dispel Magic as a 2nd level spell, I believe.), and the paladin's Lesser Restoration and a 1st level spell. You don't even have to go searching for it, because you just know it. Then, just Shapechange into a Hydra. And you know the worst thing about it? You can even pick up divine spells after leaving EN - since you have the slots to be able to fill them. And I'm not even optimising that much. Remember people CAN dip, and making it so they can just take a couple of levels in your class to gain divine spells through Extra Spell? Bad idea. And if not, by RAW you can. This brings up too many arguements. This class is impossible to balance. It's both behind on the power curve (never reaches 9th level spells, low caster level), but inwardly broken. it's.... unappealing.
StevenO 09-11-07, 02:14 PM	Problems are solved. I just noticed that one of the requirements for Acolyte of the Skin is "caster level 5th". Now there's no problem requiring "invoker level 2nd, arcane caster level 2nd and divine caster level 2nd". Actually there is a problem, the Warlock can be used to meet the arcane caster level requirements. Otherwise how would one manage to qualify for the Mindbender PrC which is much better suited to Warlocks than regular arcane casters. With those changes you don't even need a proper arcane caster level to qualify and even if you keep the spontaneous arcane spell requirements I could still overload on the Warlock side to meet the caster level problem. That's actually more equivalent to 15th, because of the spontaneous casters' spell-level delay. As far as invoker - that's 2d6 damage set back and gaining just 1/3 of what a full fledged Warlock gets in dark invocations. Moreover, It's a common error to just look at the top levels and disregard the entire process leading to it. Compare the characters' potential at each class level. Moreover, the only problem with Eldritch Disciple/Theurge is that they don't currently have other synergetic PrCs to go with the momentum (and probbably won't have, now that 4e is around the corner). But along the way, when making level by level comparisins, they beat the proposed Eldritch Nexus by 1/2 a mile or so in terms of crunch. . I don't see how this would be 15th level max spellcasting equivalents unless you're back to the 4/1/1 entry. Maybe I'm reading everything incorrectly but if you intend full invocations and full casting (plus spells known for two types) with a 2/2/2 entry that is still 20-4=16th level casting ability meaning 8th level spells. With an invocer level of 16 you're only losing two invocations. Yes your individual abilities are effectively 3-4 levels late instead of the normal 2-3 but your still getting them from three different types. I can agree that is is somewhat problematic comparing PrCs at the top. The thing is that it is were we can actually look at the entire PrC and make judgements based on that. With this a 2/2/2 entry may be weaker than a 4/1/1 but this class makes up the loss at twice the speed (advancing three different areas) or many other classes. The Lyrist may also try making up three areas (BAB, arcane and divine spellcasting) but it is starting after 10 levels instead of only 6.
nonsi 09-11-07, 02:55 PM	Kobold Warlock 2/Sorc 3/Favored Soul 1/Eldritch Nexus 7/Sacred Exorcist 8 As I stated above, Level requirements are legit (see Acolyte of the Skin), So now it'll be "invoker level 2nd, spontaneous arcane caster level 2nd and spontaneous divine caster level 2nd". And even with your build, I don't see How I get to 9th level spells, since Sorcerers don't get 9th level spells at level 17. As you're casting divine spells in arcane slots, you should have plenty. I stated above that the idea is dropped. It'll be separate progression for each required class. No mixing and no spell stealing from other classes (unless a propper spell-level adaptation is suggested). Now this trick won't work. Pick up Bite of the Werebear As an Eldritch Nexus :eek: Where in the world are you gonn'a find a DM that will allow it after reading the Eldritch Nexus's flavor text ? Oh, and don't forget to pick up all the Trapsmith's best spells (Greater Dispel Magic as a 2nd level spell, I believe.), If you're talking about the Kobold Trapsmith (no dispel there), then I have no idea how you're gonn'a collect the needed skillpoints to glue them together or how you would excuse an Eldritch Nexus going there in the 1st place (guess we're talking about a different Trapsmith). and the paladin's Lesser Restoration and a 1st level spell. Sorry mate, you lost me there. Remember people CAN dip... ...It's both behind on the power curve (never reaches 9th level spells, low caster level), but inwardly broken. it's.... unappealing. Which is exactly the purpose of this thread. Finding the loopholes. ...And after that, dipping is ok - as long as you don't ignore the flavore.
rampant 09-11-07, 03:35 PM	Maybe you should edit the top post to reflect the changes you've made. Makes it easier to see where things stand.
Khatoblepas 09-11-07, 05:15 PM	Stuff about not being able to learn the specific spells. Have you even read your own class abilities? Advanced Learning: The Eldritch Nexus further increases his spells' repertoire. Using this class feature, he can select a single spell to add to his spells known. The spell can be either arcane or divine. Already tried to clarify it, here's your response. Off of which list? Sorc/Wiz & Cleric? Or is druid okay? Archivist? Domain spells? Could be appropriate for the classes that lead to this PrC, but given that Sorc/Wiz & Cleric lists already contain the most powerful spells available, I don't see what harm could come from making Advanced Learning enable you to select from any character's spell list that goes all the way to 9th level spells (it's not like Ironwood is the most broken 6th level spell out there). You can learn any spell. From any list. You said it yourself. So I cherry pick Bite of the Werebear (Druid spell list), Greater Dispel Magic (2nd, Trapsmith spell list [Dungeonscape]), and Lesser Restoration (1st, Paladin Spell List [PHB]). And if you bring up the 9th level spell lists only rule, I'm just using the Archivist's spell list :P. As an Eldritch Nexus Where in the world are you gonn'a find a DM that will allow it after reading the Eldritch Nexus's flavor text ? Madness? THIS IS RAWTA! Seriously, balance is based upon mechanics, not flavor. Rule 0 shouldn't balance this class. This class should balance this class. There's no use arguing it, if there's a loophole I'm going to exploit it. That includes reading the top post. If there are any changes at all, please edit the top post, otherwise I won't be able to critique it. Oh, and I got 9th level spells through the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage. Standard issue with most kobolds :P. Having this class's speciality spread out so thin also invites abuse. Caster level bumps are easy. Take Illumian (Krau) for example - +1CL on all spells and spell like abilities. There's your Caster Level 2nd for all your classes by level 3, allowing the Illumian to take more Sorcerer/Favored Soul levels. Illumian (Krau) Warlock 1/Favored Soul 1/Sorcerer 4/Eldritch Nexus 14 9th level arcane spells (CL18), 8th level divine spells (CL15), Greater Invocations. In fact... Illumian (Krau) Warlock 1/Favored Soul 1/Sorcerer 1/Eldritch Nexus 14/Mystic Theurge 3 9th level Arcane Spells (CL18), 9th level Divine Spells (CL18), Greater Invocations. Flaw: Unattentive) Eschew Materials 1) Spell Hand 3) Combat Casting You did say that I could use flaws, right? There is no way in heck that any DM would allow this class. It's practically impossible to balance, it's a 6th level entry triple threat that's got a really generic flavor ("I am master of all magic, bah! I learn all spell and invocation! I look down on you puny mortals, and you too, Ultimate Magus!") which you're futilly trying to compare to CLERIC builds (for heaven's sake, clerics? The build you keep posting is fairly good, but it's still a cleric.). Full casting with 7 bonus spells from any list, a free domain, Antimagic Field busting, and the Eldritch Theurge's class features, with NO drawback for Illumians and people with the means to boost their CL? Sign me up! Now do you see why triple threat classes are so hard to find and difficult to enter? Double threat classes are difficult in themselves. See the controversy with more than one Mystic Theurge class. This just takes the cake, has it, eats it, and reverse engineers it to make more identical cakes, and doesn't share it. And remember: ...And after that, dipping is ok - as long as you don't ignore the flavore. FLAVOR IS MUTABLE. MECHANICS AREN'T.
nonsi 09-11-07, 07:10 PM	Seriously, balance is based upon mechanics, not flavor. Rule 0 shouldn't balance this class. This class should balance this class. There's no use arguing it, if there's a loophole I'm going to exploit it. That includes reading the top post. If there are any changes at all, please edit the top post, otherwise I won't be able to critique it. Point taken. I'll make it so in the next few days or so. Meanwhile, I want to gather as much impression as possible. Oh, and I got 9th level spells through the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage. Standard issue with most kobolds :P. I'll try to find it and read it out, but sometimes you just gott'a have house rules to maintain balance anyway. Take Illumian (Krau) for example - +1CL on all spells and spell like abilities. According to the definition of "Caster Level" on page 176 in the DMG ("Caster Level: Generally equal to the number of class levels..."), this enhancement won't help you there. The fact that spells and spell like abilities function AS IF you were 1 level higher doesn't make you a 2nd level spellcaster after gaining just 1 level in it (otherwise it's just deliberate missreading) - something that the class's spells progression, BAB and saves come to remind us. Full casting with 7 bonus spells from any list, a free domain, Antimagic Field busting, and the Eldritch Theurge's class features, with NO drawback for Illumians and people with the means to boost their CL? Sign me up! Ok, so this brings us down to limiting the choice to the lists from the spellcasting classes that continue to improve. This should plug this hole.
Khatoblepas 09-11-07, 07:43 PM	According to the definition of "Caster Level" on page 176 in the DMG ("Caster Level: Generally equal to the number of class levels..."), this enhancement won't help you there. The fact that spells and spell like abilities function AS IF you were 1 level higher doesn't make you a 2nd level spellcaster after gaining just 1 level in it (otherwise it's just deliberate missreading) - something that the class's spells progression, BAB and saves come to remind us. I'm pretty sure it does. You can enter Mindbender (prereq Caster Level 5th) with Wizard 1/Fighter 4 with Practiced Spellcaster, and that gives you a bonus (up to your HD). Caster level /= Spellcaster level. It's kind of complicated to explain, but your caster level isn't just your spellcaster level, though it usually is. Sometimes, you get increases to your caster level which means your caster level is higher than your spellcaster level. Your caster level can also recieve penalties, meaning it's lower than your spellcaster level. Of course, you can't use Spellcaster level, since that's simply not done (it's just a measure of how far down the class progression you've gone, and a very obscure term, too). Is my Illumian's caster level not 2 for each of his classes? Caster level bonuses aren't like attack bonuses - they increase the actual level, not just rolls. (Your "Base Attack Bonus" can't have bonuses, but your attack rolls can. Hence why you can't go over +20 BAB pre-epic, and why you can't use attack bonuses for meeting BAB prereqs) And that's why it says "Generally..." in the SRD. :) Caster Level: Effectiveness of spellcasting. Warlocks have these, not the below. Hence why they can't enter some prestige classes. Spellcaster Level: Metagame term for "Casts as an X level wizard" where X is your Spellcaster Level. Can be higher than caster level, eg "casts as a 4th level ranger" would have a caster level of 1. It's a headache, I know, but don't blame me, I didn't write these rules. :P
nonsi 09-12-07, 12:06 AM	Of course, you can't use Spellcaster level, since that's simply not done (it's just a measure of how far down the class progression you've gone, and a very obscure term, too). Ok, explain it to me like I was 6 years old. Why can't I use Spellcaster level ? ("that's simply not done" sounds just like an exuse for leaving an opening for loopholes) It's something more concrete the way you discribe it. What you're actually saying, is that an Illumian can qualify for Acolyte of the Skin by 4th level. What about the unwritten rule that you don't qualify for ANY PrC before 5th total class level ?
Khatoblepas 09-12-07, 02:43 AM	Ok, explain it to me like I was 6 years old. Why can't I use Spellcaster level ? ("that's simply not done" sounds just like an exuse for leaving an opening for loopholes) It's something more concrete the way you discribe it. What you're actually saying, is that an Illumian can qualify for Acolyte of the Skin by 4th level. What about the unwritten rule that you don't qualify for ANY PrC before 5th total class level ? Because Spellcaster Levels aren't real. They aren't mentioned in the rules, because they're shorthand for "casts as X level caster". They're often used to point out to people that Practised Spellcaster doesn't give you higher level spells.Your spellcaster level IS just your class level + increases given by prestige classes, and that's all. Your caster level, however, is more fluid. Any PrC? Church Inquisitor, Master Specialist, Forsaker, and Stoneblessed want to have a word with you. I still don't see what you want to achieve with this class. 4 Warlock levels in exchange for 8th level Divine and Arcane spells? And a primary caster type, leads to not having 9th level spells, which means they're pretty much out of the loop at endgame. Eh.
nonsi 09-12-07, 06:59 AM	Because Spellcaster Levels aren't real. They aren't mentioned in the rules, because they're shorthand for "casts as X level caster". They're often used to point out to people that Practised Spellcaster doesn't give you higher level spells.Your spellcaster level IS just your class level + increases given by prestige classes, and that's all. Your caster level, however, is more fluid. I got it now. Spellcaster Levels aren't real because they mean different things to different spellcasting classes, while Caster Level X offers the same mechanics to everyone. Couldn't you just say so to begin with :pbbbtt: ;) Any PrC? Church Inquisitor, Master Specialist, Forsaker, and Stoneblessed want to have a word with you. So it's just an urban myth I gather. Good to know. I still don't see what you want to achieve with this class. 4 Warlock levels in exchange for 8th level Divine and Arcane spells? And a primary caster type, leads to not having 9th level spells, which means they're pretty much out of the loop at endgame. Eh. A lot of things happen between levels 1 - 20. It's just boring being the blaster or the meat cleaver all the time. Sometimes it could be more fun being the utilitarian. Anyway, I think I still have a shot at forcing the issue: Class Features: Eldritch Blast; Detect Magic; able to spontaneously cast 1st-level arcane spells and 1st-level divine spells. Saves: Base +3 or better to all saves (that's for the FS) Spells: must have a total of 7 or more Spells Known overall (For the Sorc. - since Extra Spell is not available per-level 3, no bypassing this one).
Khatoblepas 09-12-07, 08:12 AM	Kobold Sorcerer 4/Favored Soul 1/Warlock 1/Eldritch Nexus 14 Take Detect Magic as a spell, or Draconic Rite for Detect Magic 1/day. 9th level arcane spells.
nonsi 09-12-07, 08:47 AM	Kobold Sorcerer 4/Favored Soul 1/Warlock 1/Eldritch Nexus 14 Take Detect Magic as a spell, or Draconic Rite for Detect Magic 1/day. 9th level arcane spells. You're not gonna make it easy on me, are you :D 1. Detect Magic 1ce / day or as a spell IS NOT having the ability always-active as progressive class feature. 2. How exactly did you meet the base (as in unmodified) Fort/Ref Save +3 with that build ? its racial traits offer no such bonuses - and even if it did have them, those are not BASE values.
Khatoblepas 09-12-07, 09:23 AM	You're not gonna make it easy on me, are you :D 1. Detect Magic 1ce / day or as a spell IS NOT having the ability always-active as progressive class feature. 2. How exactly did you meet the base (as in unmodified) Fort/Ref Save +3 with that build ? its racial traits offer no such bonuses - and even if it did have them, those are not BASE values. FS +2, 4th level sorcerer gives +1 fort and ref, I believe. If it's only as a class feature: Kobold Warlock 2/FS1/Sorcerer 4/Eldritch Nexus 13 9th level spell. (CL18 sorcerer casting)
StevenO 09-12-07, 01:54 PM	Class Features: Eldritch Blast; Detect Magic; able to spontaneously cast 1st-level arcane spells and 1st-level divine spells. Saves: Base +3 or better to all saves (that's for the FS) Spells: must have a total of 7 or more Spells Known overall (For the Sorc. - since Extra Spell is not available per-level 3, no bypassing this one). These are the latest prereqs? Lets see. Warlock3/Sorcerer1/Favored Soul1: Warlock 3 has save +1/+1+/3 which easily get you your +3 all when adding the +2 from FS. Seven or more spells known overall isn't too hard when you consider that the FS knows that many at first level; you may not have the feats but Extra Spell could get a Sorcerer an extra 0 level spell at first level.
rampant 09-12-07, 03:34 PM	What about using spells known to set the requirements? say must know x 1st level divine spells, y 1st level arcane spells, z invocations
nonsi 09-12-07, 03:58 PM	What about using spells known to set the requirements? say must know x 1st level divine spells, y 1st level arcane spells, z invocations Amen. I thought about it from the start but tried to find something a bit less rigid. Guess nothing else will do. I guess it's all for the better. Saves-based requirements seem pretty awkward Now I'm ready for the final version (up to a margin). I'll soon start a new thread that will present the finalized Eldritch Nexus and then we'll se how balanced it is.
StevenO 09-12-07, 05:40 PM	What about using spells known to set the requirements? say must know x 1st level divine spells, y 1st level arcane spells, z invocations Originally it had been presented as requiring certain classes. By the time you go to saying must know X number of spontaneous arcane spells, Y number of spontaneous divine spells, and Z invocation you might just as well go back to saying Sorcerer x/ Favored Soul y/ Warlock z. Amen. I thought about it from the start but tried to find something a bit less rigid. Guess nothing else will do. I guess it's all for the better. Saves-based requirements seem pretty awkward Now I'm ready for the final version (up to a margin). I'll soon start a new thread that will present the finalized Eldritch Nexus and then we'll se how balanced it is. Maybe the third time (!?!) posting this will be the charm. Without updating the first post and noting what gets changed it is virtually impossible to keep track of what this is supposed to look like. Looking back on some of the other things posted the Cleric 5 / Divine Oracle 2 / Contemplative 7 / Radiant Servant of Pelor 6 doesn't actually work if that is the order the classes are taken. A character must be 10th level to get into Contemplative.