Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Celebgwath 01-27-08, 05:22 PM	Eldritch Scion v2.0 http://shared.tomville.com/forums/eldritch.scion.png "So your great-grandfather left you a magic sword? How quaint. Mine left enough magic in my blood to force entities beyond your pale imagining to succumb to my whims and the power to force my will in the very interstices of reality. Yes, do enjoy your fancy sword." —Melkan Heartreave, Scion of Magic While many warlocks take their inherited powers to heart and become powerful in their own right, a select few turn to the esoteric art of binding to track down the source of their ancestral powers—and compel them to grant every last scrap of magic their long-diminished bloodline has denied them. These are eldritch scions, devoted to not only embrace their unconventional heritage but going beyond the normal bounds in seeking out the undiluted source of their power and establishing a new pact to grant grater magics to them. Becoming an Eldritch Scion Most eldritch scions start off as warlocks who have determined that their powers are too weak for their destiny and desire to expand their powers. These usually turn to binding to seek out new sources of power as well as tracking down the ancestral source of their abilities to strengthen them. Though most scions start as warlocks, some binders find that another of their profession existed far back in the family and has granted the current binder great familial power. Turning to their esoteric arts, binders seek to duplicate the feats of their ancestors and establish a greater innate pact of their own. Entry Requirements Skills: Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks, knowledge (nobility and royalty) 4 ranks, knowledge (religion) 4 ranks Invocations: Ability to use least invocations Special: Eldritch blast +2d6, Ability to bind 2nd level vestiges Table: Eldritch Scion Hit Die: D6 Base Attack Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save Special Spellcasting 1 +0 +2 +0 +2 Soul binding +1, soul synergy +1 level of existing invocation-using class 2 +1 +3 +0 +3 Soul binding +2, bind bloodline --- 3 +2 +3 +1 +3 Soul binding +3 +1 level of existing invocation-using class 4 +3 +4 +1 +4 Invoke vestige (lesser) +1 level of existing invocation-using class 5 +3 +4 +1 +4 Soul binding +4 +1 level of existing invocation-using class 6 +4 +5 +2 +5 Soul Binding +5, revitalized blast +1 level of existing invocation-using class 7 +5 +5 +2 +5 Soul binding +6 +1 level of existing invocation-using class 8 +6 +6 +2 +6 Soul binding +7, invoke vestige (greater) +1 level of existing invocation-using class 9 +6 +6 +3 +6 Soul binding +8 +1 level of existing invocation-using class 10 +7 +7 +3 +7 Soul binding +9, paragon descendant +1 level of existing invocation-using class Class skills (2+ Int modifier per level): Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Intimidate, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device. Class Features Invocations: At each level except 2nd, you gain new invocations known and an increase in caster level as if you had also gained a level in an invocation-using class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If you had more than one invocation-using class before becoming an eldritch scion, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining caster level and invocations known. Soul Binding Bonus: At each level except 4th, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class. Your scion levels and binder levels stack for the purpose of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, your ability to bind higher-level vestiges, and the number of vestiges you can bind. You do not, however, gain any other benefits a binder would have gained. Soul Synergy (Su): At 1st level, your magic-infused soul aids you in binding vestiges more favorably to yourself. You gain an insight bonus to binding checks equal to 1/2 your scion level (minimum of +1). Bind Bloodline: At 2nd level, you learn to take your ability to establish pacts with vestiges and apply it to your own condition, allowing you to call upon your ancestry, reaching back towards the point of original power in your bloodline. As you improve in your mastery of binding and eldritch ability, you can call upon your bloodline for greater powers yet. You gain the ability to make a pact with your own bloodline instead of a vestige. A bloodline is treated in all ways as a vestige and has an effective vestige level, binding DC, special requirements, sign, influence, and granted abilities exactly like a vestige. If you are unable to bind a 3rd level vestige when you gain this class feature, you may not bind your eldritch bloodline until you are able to. Eldritch Bloodline A warlock scion may call upon the spirits of generations of her ancestors and their own eldritch might. Vestige Level: 3rd Binding DC: 22 Special Requirements: Yes Legend: An eldritch bloodline matches the background of the warlock character and goes back as many generations as the player and DM consider appropriate but does not extend back to the initial granting of power. This background may hint at the fey, infernal, or otherworldly source of power, however. Seal: The seal of an eldritch bloodline is unique to a given warlock's heritage. However, they may incorporate ancient family insignia or coats of arms. Special Requirements: In order to call upon your bloodline you must draw the appropriate symbol using your own, fresh blood and incorporating some surface that can reflect your image. Manifestation: Your reflection in the surface alters slightly and steps forward as a ghostly apparition of one of your immediate, deceased ancestors. Behind this specter and surrounding you are increasingly faint images of your entire bloodline stretching further back than you can remember or name. Sign: Your bloodline seeks to be recognized in your features and though you appear the same to yourself and close companions, your appearance changes to the eyes of strangers. Those who encounter you see you and recognize you as though you might be a long lost cousin not seen in years, though this is only a temporary reaction that fades within minutes or when dissuaded. Influence: While under the influence of your bloodline, you are compelled to take pride in your heritage and must always and truthfully fully introduce yourself, including your family name and the names of at least two generations of your maternal or paternal progenitors. In addition, unless you already have children, you are gripped with the nagging compulsion to produce an heir. You must consider every person of the opposite gender you encounter, friend or foe, as a potential mate and contributor to the bloodline, though you are not forced to act on any relationship. Granted Abilities: The eldritch ancestry in your blood grants you a fraction of the power wielded by all your ancestors, boosting your eldritch abilities considerably. Bloodline Blast: Your eldritch blast damage increases by +1d6 per four effective binder levels but cannot harm anyone related to you (anyone sharing descent from a common grandparent). Ancestral Invocations: Each time you bind your bloodline you may select any least invocation you do not already know that is available to you. If your effective binder level is at least 9th, you may select any least or lesser invocation. If your effective binder level is at least 15th you may select any least, lesser, or greater invocation. Inherited Toughness: You gain damage reduction 1/cold iron per four effective binder levels; this stacks with damage reduction granted through other sources. Ancestral Whispers: You hear the constant whisperings of your ancestors, granting you a +2 insight bonus to initiative checks, and all knowledge, listen, search, & spot checks. If your effective binder level is at least 9th, this bonus increases to +4. If your effective binder level is at least 15th, this bonus increases to +6. Blood Thicker Than Magic: The magic in your blood is bolstered by your ancestors. You gain a +1 bonus to the caster level of your invocation-granting class and to the save DCs for all invocations you call upon. If your effective binder level is at least 9th, this bonus increases to +2. If your effective binder level is at least 15th, it increases to +3. Invoke Vestige (Su): Your repeated dealings with powers granted by vestiges resonates with your innate magic. By performing a special binding ceremony you may learn a new invocation from the bound vestige. In order to learn a new invocation of this type you must successfully perform a good binding of a 1st or 2nd level vestige and be capable of learning a new lesser invocation (if you can't, you may attempt the ceremony at your next level that grants you a new lesser invocation known). If your binding check fails or you establish a poor pact, you must wait one week before attempting the binding ceremony again; if the check is successful and you establish a good pact, you may select a single ability granted by your bound vestige and learn it as an invocation instead of choosing an invocation normally. You must adhere to any special requirements for this binding, they cannot be bypassed. An invocation learned in this way counts as a lesser invocation with an effective spell level equal to the level of the vestige you obtained the ability from. An invocation derived from a granted ability behaves exactly as though that ability were being granted from its vestige (regardless of whether or not the vestige is bound) except any calculations involving effective binder level use the caster level of your invocation-granting class instead and all save DCs are calculated using your charisma modifier. This new invocation may then be used and treated as a regular invocation. Should you choose to bind the vestige you learned the invocation from you must choose between using the vestige's granted ability or the vestige invocation at the time the pact is made and abide this decision until the vestige's pact is released. At 8th level, you may perform the ceremony again to learn a new vestige invocation. This time, you may select to learn either another lesser invocation from a 1st or 2nd level vestige or a greater invocation by binding a 3rd or 4th level vestige, excluding your Eldritch Bloodline, (you must be capable of learning a greater invocation, however). The process and results are identical to learning a lesser invocation except the granted power comes from a 3rd or 4th level vestige and has a correspondingly higher effective spell level and is instead treated as a greater invocation. You may only know two invocations learned from vestiges at any time but you may retrain these whenever you would normally retrain an invocation. You must perform the ceremony each time you retrain any invocation into a vestige invocation. Timmy is a Binder 3/Warlock 3/Eldritch Scion 8 who just took the 8th level of Scion, gaining the Invoke Vestige (greater) class feature. Timmy is capable of learning a new greater invocation at this level and decides to make use of invoke vestige to gain a vestige ability as his new invocation. Little Timmy is feeling the hurt of being left out of all the popular gossip and decides to bind Astaroth (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a), a 4th level vestige, and acquire his Angelic Lore ability as an invocation. Timmy performs the ceremony and on a good roll binds Astaroth with a good binding check, allowing him to take one of Astaroth's powers and learn it as a greater invocation. Timmy chooses Angelic Lore and adds the following invocation to his invocations known list: Angelic Lore Greater; 4th You can use the bardic knowledge ability (PH 28), treating your effective bard level as your warlock caster level. Now Timmy is overjoyed as he can make bardic knowledge checks and learn all the juicy gossip regardless of whether or not he binds Astaroth. If Timmy decides to bind Astaroth again in the future, however, he must choose at the time of the binding if he's going to use Astaroth's granted Angelic Lore ability or his invocation of the same name and may only use the chosen ability until Astaroth's pact is released. Revitalized Blast (Su): Your actions are backed up by the magical strength building up in the blood in your veins.As a swift action, you may revitalize your eldritch blast, changing the type of damage from d6 to d8 until the end of the round. Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds. Paragon Descendant: Your arcane blood and mastery of your own ancestry makes you the pinnacle of your entire family, granting you abilities above and beyond those of your mere cousins. Supernatural Charm (Su): Your paragon status and innate magical aura make you charming and charismatic. You receive a +2 bonus on all charisma-based skill checks. Vestigal Kin (Ex): You may use your warlock caster level instead of your effective binder level to determine the benefits of scaling abilities granted by vestiges, excluding your eldritch bloodline. Eldritch Countenance: Your type changes to outsider (native) for the purpose of spells and and magical effects. You may make poor pacts with your Eldritch Bloodline. Related Feats Bind Bloodline You grasp the magic in your blood and bend it to your conscious will. Prerequisites: Ability to bind 3rd level vestiges, spellcraft 3 ranks. Benefit: You gain the bind bloodline class feature of the eldritch scion. You may bind your eldritch bloodline as a standard vestige. Author's Notes I'm really fairly happy with the class as it stands now. I'd like to kick the vestige portion over to the other board/thread for feedback before too long but I like it all otherwise. Once I've done that I'll be happy with the class overall. Thanks to everyone who helped with feedback, encouragement, and ideas. They were all greatly appreciated. Though I suppose they don't have to stop now. :P Entry Requirements Skills: Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks, knowledge (nobility and royalty) 4 ranks, knowledge (religion) 4 ranks Invocations: Ability to use least invocations Special: Eldritch blast +2d6, Soul binding class feature, Ability to bind 2nd level vestiges Table: Eldritch Scion Hit Die: D6 Base Attack Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save Special Spellcasting 1 +0 +2 +0 +2 Soul binding +1, soul synergy +1 level of existing invocation-using class 2 +1 +3 +0 +3 Soul binding +2, bind bloodline +1 +1 level of existing invocation-using class 3 +1 +3 +1 +3 Invoke vestige (lesser) +1 level of existing invocation-using class 4 +2 +4 +1 +4 Soul binding +3 +1 level of existing invocation-using class 5 +2 +4 +1 +4 Soul binding +4, bind bloodline +2 --- 6 +3 +5 +2 +5 Soul Binding +5 +1 level of existing invocation-using class 7 +3 +5 +2 +5 Soul binding +6, +1 level of existing invocation-using class 8 +4 +6 +2 +6 Soul binding +7, bind bloodline +3 +1 level of existing invocation-using class 9 +4 +6 +3 +6 Invoke vestige (greater) +1 level of existing invocation-using class 10 +5 +7 +3 +7 Soul binding +8, bind ancestral patron --- Class skills (2+ Int modifier per level): Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Intimidate, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device. Class Features Invocations: At each level except 5th and 10th, you gain new invocations known and an increase in caster level as if you had also gained a level in an invocation-using class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If you had more than one invocation-using class before becoming an eldritch scion, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining caster level and invocations known. Soul Binding Bonus: At each level except 3rd and 9th, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class. Your scion levels and binder levels stack for the purpose of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, your ability to bind higher-level vestiges, and the number of vestiges you can bind. You do not, however, gain any other benefits a binder would have gained. Soul Synergy (Su): At 1st level, your magic-infused soul aids you in binding vestiges more favorably to yourself. You gain an insight bonus to binding checks equal to 1/2 your scion level (minimum of +1). Bind Bloodline: At 2nd level, you learn to take your ability to establish pacts with vestiges and apply it to your own condition, allowing you to call upon your ancestry, reaching back towards the point of original power in your bloodline. As you improve in your mastery of binding and eldritch ability, you can call upon your bloodline for greater powers yet. You gain the ability to make a pact with your own bloodline instead of a vestige. A bloodline is treated in all ways as a vestige and has an effective vestige level, binding DC, special requirements, sign, influence, and granted abilities exactly like a vestige. Unlike a vestige, a scion's bloodline gets stronger as the scion improves in level, changing vestige level, binding DC, and granted abilities as it does so. Since your bloodline improves, you may not bind an earlier version of it once the improved version becomes available to you and you may not bind more than one bloodline. Eldritch Bloodline A warlock scion may call upon the spirits of generations of her ancestors and their own eldritch might. Vestige Level: 1st (increases to 3rd at 5th level, 5th at 8th level) Binding DC: 17 (increases to 22 at 5th level, 27 at 8th level) Special Requirements: Yes Legend: An eldritch bloodline matches the background of the warlock character and goes back as many generations as the player and DM consider appropriate but does not extend back to the initial granting of power. This background may hint at the fey, infernal, or otherworldly source of power, however. Seal: The seal of an eldritch bloodline is unique to a given warlock's heritage. However, they may incorporate ancient family insignia or coats of arms. Special Requirements: In order to call upon your bloodline you must draw the appropriate symbol using your own, fresh blood and incorporating some surface that can reflect your image. Manifestation: Your reflection in the surface alters slightly and steps forward as a ghostly apparition of one of your immediate, deceased ancestors. Behind this specter and surrounding you are increasingly faint images of your entire bloodline stretching further back than you can remember or name. Sign: Your bloodline seeks to be recognized in your features and though you appear the same to yourself and close companions, your appearance changes to the eyes of strangers. Those who encounter you see you and recognize you as though you might be a long lost cousin not seen in years, though this is only a temporary reaction that fades within minutes or when dissuaded. Influence: While under the influence of your bloodline, you are compelled to take pride in your heritage and must always and truthfully fully introduce yourself, including your family name and the names of at least two generations of your maternal or paternal progenitors. In addition, unless you already have children, you are gripped with the nagging compulsion to produce an heir. You must consider every person of the opposite gender you encounter, friend or foe, as a potential mate and contributor to the bloodline, though you are not forced to act on any relationship. Granted Abilities: The eldritch ancestry in your blood grants you a fraction of the power wielded by all your ancestors, boosting your eldritch abilities considerably. Bloodline Blast: Your eldritch blast damage increases by +1d6 but cannot harm anyone related to you (anyone sharing descent from a common grandparent). This bonus to your damage increases to +2d6 at 5th level and +3d6 at 8th level. Ancestral Invocations: Each time you bind your bloodline you may select any least invocation you do not already know that is available to you. At 5th level, you may select any least or lesser invocation and at 8th level you may select any least, lesser, or greater invocation. Inherited Toughness: You gain damage reduction 1/cold iron; this stacks with damage reduction granted through other sources. This bonus increases to 2/cold iron at 5th level and 3/cold iron at 8th level. Relative Resistance: You gain resistance 5 to one of the following energy types: acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic. At 5th level, you may choose to gain resistance 5 to a second energy type or resistance 10 to a single energy type. At 8th level, you may choose to gain resistance 5 to a three separate energy types, resistance 10 to a single energy type and resistance 5 to a second energy type, or resistance 15 to a single energy type. Blood Thicker Than Magic: The magic in your blood is bolstered by your ancestors. You gain a +1 racial bonus to the caster level of your invocation-granting class and to the save DCs for all invocations you call upon. At 5th level, this bonus increases to +2 and at 8th level it increases to +3. Invoke Vestige (Su): Your repeated dealings with powers granted by vestiges resonates with your innate magic. By performing a special binding ceremony you may learn a new invocation from the bound vestige. In order to learn a new invocation of this type you must successfully perform a good binding of a 1st or 2nd level vestige and be capable of learning a new lesser invocation (if you can't, you may attempt the ceremony at your next level that grants you a new lesser invocation known). If your binding check fails or you establish a poor pact, you must wait one week before attempting the binding ceremony again; if the check is successful and you establish a good pact, you may select a single ability granted by your bound vestige and learn it as an invocation instead of choosing an invocation normally. You must adhere to any special requirements for this binding, they cannot be bypassed. An invocation learned in this way counts as a lesser invocation with an effective spell level equal to the level of the vestige you obtained the ability from. An invocation derived from a granted ability behaves exactly as though that ability were being granted from its vestige (regardless of whether or not the vestige is bound) except any calculations involving effective binder level use the caster level of your invocation-granting class instead and all save DCs are calculated using your charisma modifier. This new invocation may then be used and treated as a regular invocation. Should you choose to bind the vestige you learned the invocation from you must choose between using the vestige's granted ability or the vestige invocation at the time the pact is made and abide this decision until the vestige's pact is released. At 9th level, you may perform the ceremony again to learn a new vestige invocation. This time, you may select to learn either another lesser invocation from a 1st or 2nd level vestige or a greater invocation by binding a 3rd or 4th level vestige (you must be capable of learning a greater invocation, however). The process and results are identical to learning a lesser invocation except the granted power comes from a 3rd or 4th level vestige and has a correspondingly higher effective spell level and is instead treated as a greater invocation. You may only know two invocations learned from vestiges at any time but you may retrain these whenever you would normally retrain an invocation. You must perform the ceremony each time you retrain any invocation into a vestige invocation. Timmy is a Binder 3/Warlock 3/Eldritch Scion 9 who just took the 9th level of Scion, gaining the Invoke Vestige (greater) class feature. Timmy is capable of learning a new greater invocation at this level and decides to make use of invoke vestige to gain a vestige ability as his new invocation. Little Timmy is feeling the hurt of being left out of all the popular gossip and decides to bind Astaroth (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a), a 4th level vestige, and acquire his Angelic Lore ability as an invocation. Timmy performs the ceremony and on a good roll binds Astaroth with a good binding check, allowing him to take one of Astaroth's powers and learn it as a greater invocation. Timmy chooses Angelic Lore and adds the following invocation to his invocations known list: Angelic Lore Greater; 4th You can use the bardic knowledge ability (PH 28), treating your effective bard level as your warlock caster level. Now Timmy is overjoyed as he can make bardic knowledge checks and learn all the juicy gossip regardless of whether or not he binds Astaroth. If Timmy decides to bind Astaroth again in the future, however, he must choose at the time of the binding if he's going to use Astaroth's granted Angelic Lore ability or his invocation of the same name and may only use the chosen ability until Astaroth's pact is released. Bind Ancestral Patron: Your arcane blood and mastery of your own ancestry guides you to the source of your innate powers, allowing you to call upon that entity and create a new pact--on your terms. Your ancestral patron grants you several new abilities, much like a bound vestige. Sign of the Favored (Su): Your patron alters your body to permanently display a physical sign of their favor (this sign reflects the specific heritage of each particular warlock and their chosen patron). As long as the sign is visible (it may be suppressed by the binder's suppress sign class feature) you gain a +2 bonus on all bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, sense motive, and spellcraft checks when interacting with other warlocks or worshipers or followers of your patron. Revitalized Eldritch Blast (Su): As a swift action, you may revitalize your eldritch blast, changing the type of damage from d6 to d8 until the end of the round. You may use this ability once per point of charisma modifier (minimum 1) per day. Eldritch Countenance: Your type changes to outsider (native) for the purpose of spells and and magical effects. Anyone using a spellcraft check to examine your spell-like or supernatural abilities may make a DC 25 knowledge (the planes) check to identify your patron and their influence on your abilities. Author's Notes Just some random thoughts I had on the class as I was making it and some comments by myself on possible changes. All constructive critique and so on is definitely welcome. Disclaimer: I've never had a chance to play the Binder class and I've only played three sessions with my Eldritch Disciple so my experience with direct game play with the classes involved is limited. I'm mostly going on direct interpretation of mechanics and flavor so input from people who have played the classes involved would be greatly appreciated. I am significantly concerned with the power curve of the class. Assuming you bind your bloodline you get the same eldritch blast as a straight warlock 20 (at level 16) and still have access to hellfire warlock, plus the d8 thing. What you don't have is access to dark invocations, ever, due to binder entry requirements and 8/10 invocation granting and only 9 invocations known, max. Binder side, you lose two levels of soul binding but get a bonus to the binding check. You're only ever going to be able to bind a maximum of three vestiges, most likely only two, and one of those is likely to be your bloodline. I really like the flavor and mechanics I have presented but I suspect I may need to scale back somewhat. Suggestions for doing so without trashing the class would be greatly appreciated. Entry is pretty much restricted to Binder 3/Warlock 3 in order to ensure most of the granted abilities come in at appropriate levels. I'd be open to different entry criteria if anyone has any ideas. It would be fairly easy to reflavor/recrunch the class to work with dragonfire adepts (dragonfire scion anyone?). Change eldritch blast modifiers to breath weapon ones, alter the bind bloodline vestige to reflect a draconic lineage or heritage (color) and maybe grant the dragonblood or draconic type at some point. Ultimately, since dragonfire adept is another class I've never played, I didn't write this variant out but for someone interested I think it has potential and opens up the concept to both invocation using classes. Likewise, I think making a vestige spin-off based on the the bloodline above that grants limited warlock abilities (that don't stack with the bloodline or warlock class abilities), say 3d6 eldritch blast, two invocations, and some DR/cold iron as a low/mid-level vestige has potential but I don't feel qualified to write it out.
Celebgwath 02-05-08, 07:06 PM	Updated with additional fluff material, revisions for clarity and readability, some minor tweaks to mechanics, and a very stylish picture ;) . I'd still appreciate any feedback. Thanks for reading.
Realms of Chaos 02-07-08, 12:46 AM	Must ignore picture...preserve sanity... Okay. I think I'm better. Looking at the class itself, I find myself asking why two classes with medium BAB come together in the form of a PrC with bad BAB. Moving on, bind bloodling seems a bit strange in that you are binding to a vestige that really doesn't act much like a vestige (even gaining additional abilities at a later level). What I suggest is a combination of bind bloodline and bind ancestral patron. First of all, give the vestige a set level and bind DC (which should be insanely high for its level, like 30). There is no reason to or advantage of increasing its level. Furthermore, I suggest removing blood thicker than water and replacing it with rejuvinated eldritch blast. Also, instead of putting daily limits on how much you can use that blast, let's instead go with the binder spirit of making it 1/5 rounds. Another thing that would make it seem more vestigey is if, instead of increasing benefits with class level, using your binder level. Normally, this means increases at 11th and 19th levels. However, as you are losing two binder levels, lets lower that to 9th and 17th (not too much of a difference). As far as the bind ancestral patron ability, I'd rewrite it as shown below. Bloodline's Chosen: Your arcane blood and mastery of your own ancestry guides you to the source of your innate powers, which makes you a paragon of your family name. Your type is henceforth considered outsider for the purposes of spells and effects. Unlike most outsiders, you may be raised. Furthermore, you are granted supernatural charm, granting you a +2 bonus on all charisma-based skill checks. Lastly, you gain a +10 bonus on bind checks made to bind your Eldritch Bloodline. Cool idea. Props go where they are deserved.
nighttree 02-07-08, 10:50 AM	I must say I like the idea of the Ancestral vestige, although I don't have the experience with vestiges to determine if it's balanced. Incredibly cool idea though :clap:
DonThelonious 02-07-08, 03:17 PM	The picture and quote alone were worth checking this class out. I am not familiar enough with either the binder or the warlock to say whether the class is balanced or what seems right, though, sorry.
Celebgwath 02-07-08, 10:20 PM	Realms of Chaos: Congratulations on keeping your sanity together. I know the conditions were adverse and trying. Also, thank you for your critique, which I have responded to (extensively, but hidden for convenience) below (picture free!). This is admittedly a knee-jerk reaction on my part. My initial impression was that the class is borderline overpowered and I adjusted the BAB to poor to compensate and never reconsidered. Based on your comment I reevaluated my observation of the class as a part of a whole progression and I think you are likely correct; there is not a balancing factor (excuse) for a poor BAB nor a significant advantage to a medium BAB. Assuming all else is reasonably balanced, adjusting this up to a medium BAB should be a given. Reading your response I see a bit of confusion regarding this class feature, and I think this is largely my fault in perhaps not having sufficient experience with binders (having been unable as-yet to play one) and in not making my description of the class feature specific enough. Given that this is more or less the defining characteristic of the prestige class, as I see it, I'll try to explain this class feature in more detail now and see if it makes more sense or if I'm just approaching it entirely wrong. The eldritch scion prestige class is, at its most basic level, a class for warlocks who use binding to augment their powers and to revitalize their hereditary powers (use binding as a means to improve warlock abilities). Bind bloodline is the primary means to accomplish this. This class feature uses a scion's ability to bind vestiges to optionally bind an alternate source of mystic power instead of a vestige; namely the warlock's ancestors (eg bloodline). So you use a special binding ceremony, using your own blood, to call upon your ancestry instead of a vestige. As a result you need to have the requirements of a vestige (level and binding DC), some similar fluff (seal, manifestation, sign, influence), and some granted abilities. You can bind this bloodline instead of a vestige, but it still counts as a vestige in regards to maximum number of vestiges you can bind, maximum level of vestige, and for stuff like pact augmentation. My take on it was as presented above; a vestige that effectively scales with scion level, as the scion gets better at drawing latent magic out of his heritage, so do the abilities granted by his bloodline (and the effective vestige level and binding DC scale up accordingly since it's more difficult). If I understand you correctly, you recommend simply granting access to it as a static vestige (level, high bind DC) and then scaling the abilities off of effective binder level more like a standard vestige. This makes sense and I don't know why it didn't occur to me. But doing it this way would make it feasible to just take two levels of the scion class and then more binder or binding PrCs to improve the bloodline-vestige's abilities instead of finishing out the class (which would now have levels 4-8 dead). Plus, since you get the benefits of a vestige regardless of a good or poor pact, you don't even need to meet the high bind DC to get the advantages. As a result, I'd probably have to add a clause to the bind bloodline feature to allow the bloodline-vestige to only be bound on good pacts (but not using up a vestige slot on a failure) and to scale the bind DC so it's only practical to attempt if you have a decent amount of the soul synergy bonus. Here is the eldritch bloodline rewritten according to the considerations above: Eldritch Bloodline A warlock scion may call upon the spirits of generations of her ancestors and their own eldritch might. Vestige Level: 2nd Binding DC: 20 (Special: May not be bound on a bad pact.) Special Requirements: Yes Legend: An eldritch bloodline matches the background of the warlock character and goes back as many generations as the player and DM consider appropriate but does not extend back to the initial granting of power. This background may hint at the fey, infernal, or otherworldly source of power, however. Special Requirements: In order to call upon your bloodline you must draw the appropriate symbol using your own, fresh blood, incorporating some surface that can reflect your image. Manifestation: Your reflection in the surface alters slightly and steps forward as a ghostly apparition of one of your immediate, deceased ancestors. Behind this spectre and surrounding you are increasingly faint images of your entire bloodline stretching further back than you can remember or name. Sign: Your bloodline seeks to be recognized in your features and though you appear the same to yourself and close companions, your appearance changes to the eyes of strangers. Those who encounter you see you and recognize you as though you might be a long lost cousin not seen in years. Furthermore, your own body feels strange you as though it were not quite as you are used to. Influence: While under the influence of your bloodline, you are compelled to take pride in your heritage and must always and truthfully fully introduce yourself, including your family name and the names of at least two generations of your maternal or paternal progenitors. In addition, unless you already have children, you are gripped with the nagging compulsion to produce an heir. You must consider every person of the opposite gender you encounter, friend or foe, as a potential mate and contributor to the bloodline, though you are not forced to act on any relationship. Granted Abilities: The eldritch ancestry in your blood grants you a fraction of the power wielded by all your ancestors, boosting your eldritch abilities considerably. Bloodline Blast: Your eldritch blast damage increases by +1d6 per four effective binder levels but cannot harm anyone related to you (anyone sharing descent from a common grandparent). Ancestral Invocations: Each time you bind your bloodline you may select any least invocation you do not already know that is available to you. If your effective binder level is at least 9th, you may select any least or lesser invocation. If your effective binder level is at least 15th you may select any least, lesser, or greater invocation. Inherited Toughness: You gain damage reduction 1/cold iron per four effective binder levels; this stacks with damage reduction granted through other sources. Relative Resistance: You gain resistance 5 to one of the following energy types: acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic. For every four effective binder levels past 5th you may select an additional energy type to gain resistance 5 to or increase a chosen energy resistance by 5. Blood Thicker Than Magic: The magic in your blood is bolstered by your ancestors. You gain a +1 bonus to the caster level of your invocation-granting class and to the save DCs for all invocations you call upon. If your effective binder level is at least 9th, this bonus increases to +2. If your effective binder level is at least 15th, it increases to +3. Lastly, to combat the dead levels such a change would entail, perhaps scaling up the vestige to a higher vestige level and granting bind bloodline at the 5th or 6th level of the scion class would make more sense. If I did it that way the vestige might look like this: Eldritch Bloodline A warlock scion may call upon the spirits of generations of her ancestors and their own eldritch might. Vestige Level: 4rd Binding DC: 24 (Special: May not be bound on a bad pact.) Special Requirements: Yes Legend: An eldritch bloodline matches the background of the warlock character and goes back as many generations as the player and DM consider appropriate but does not extend back to the initial granting of power. This background may hint at the fey, infernal, or otherworldly source of power, however. Special Requirements: In order to call upon your bloodline you must draw the appropriate symbol using your own, fresh blood, incorporating some surface that can reflect your image. Manifestation: Your reflection in the surface alters slightly and steps forward as a ghostly apparition of one of your immediate, deceased ancestors. Behind this spectre and surrounding you are increasingly faint images of your entire bloodline stretching further back than you can remember or name. Sign: Your bloodline seeks to be recognized in your features and though you appear the same to yourself and close companions, your appearance changes to the eyes of strangers. Those who encounter you see you and recognize you as though you might be a long lost cousin not seen in years. Furthermore, your own body feels strange you as though it were not quite as you are used to. Influence: While under the influence of your bloodline, you are compelled to take pride in your heritage and must always and truthfully fully introduce yourself, including your family name and the names of at least two generations of your maternal or paternal progenitors. In addition, unless you already have children, you are gripped with the nagging compulsion to produce an heir. You must consider every person of the opposite gender you encounter, friend or foe, as a potential mate and contributor to the bloodline, though you are not forced to act on any relationship. Granted Abilities: The eldritch ancestry in your blood grants you a fraction of the power wielded by all your ancestors, boosting your eldritch abilities considerably. Bloodline Blast: Your eldritch blast damage increases by 1d6 plus 1d6 per four effective binder levels, but cannot harm anyone related to you (anyone sharing descent from a common grandparent). Ancestral Invocations: Each time you bind your bloodline you may select any least or lesser invocation you do not already know that is available to you. If your effective binder level is at least 11th you may select any least, lesser, or greater invocation. Inherited Toughness: You gain damage reduction 1/cold iron plus 1 per four effective binder levels; this stacks with damage reduction granted through other sources. Relative Resistance: You gain resistance 5 to one of the following energy types: acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic. For every four effective binder levels past 5th you may select an additional energy type to gain resistance 5 to or increase a chosen energy resistance by 5. Blood Thicker Than Magic: The magic in your blood is bolstered by your ancestors. You gain a +1 bonus to the caster level of your invocation-granting class and to the save DCs for all invocations you call upon. This bonus increases by 1 per four effective binder level. Unfortunately, I really don't feel qualified to say for sure if these vestige write-ups are appropriately powerful for their level. I'd really appreciate any help on that front (or maybe I'll cross post to the new vestige thread in the magic forum for help later). I think you are absolutely correct that once per five rounds is both more thematically appropriate and, on reflection, not really as overpowering as it could be (swift activation drawback, reduced warlock EB progression, and limited _______ spell-like ability uses per day from said feats reduces overall brokenness). I'm kind of torn as to whether or not to retain it as a capstone ability of the class or roll it into the vestige. I'm leaning towards capstone because granting it too early, especially if the vestige is made available early, and having a weak capstone reduces incentive to stay in the class all the way. Replacing Sign of the Favored with Supernatural Charm appeals to me; it is simpler yet equally flavorful and applicable, I will note this as a definite change. Outsider (native) can be resurrected, so change really needed there. The spellcraft/knowledge (the planes) check is a bit cheesy and superfluous though and should be dropped. Depending on the changes to the bloodline-vestige, I'm not sure how much of a bonus should be granted, if any, because it really ought to be made use of better early on and this would be a bit too late in the progression for usefulness (or, allowing for an earlier comment, allowing the bloodline to be bound on a poor pact). As a result, I'm considering changing the capstone name, crunch, and fluff to something like this: Paragon Descendant: Your arcane blood and mastery of your own ancestry guides you to the source of your innate powers, allowing you to call upon that entity and the entirety of your heritage, making you a paragon of your family. Supernatural Charm (Su): Your paragon status and innate magical aura make you charming and charismatic. You receive a +2 bonus on all charisma-based skill checks. Revitalized Eldritch Blast (Su): As a swift action, you may revitalize your eldritch blast, changing the type of damage from d6 to d8 until the end of the round. Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds. Eldritch Countenance: Your type changes to outsider (native) for the purpose of spells and and magical effects. You may make poor pacts with your Eldritch Bloodline. Altogether, I appreciate your feedback greatly. It's given me a lot to consider and some definite possible changes to improve the class. I'd appreciate further response on some of the proposed changes to see if they are reasonable or not. I won't be changing anything in the original post until I feel the replacement effort is an acceptable improvement and perhaps a few other people provide feedback (or the thread dies). Cool idea. Props go where they are deserved. Incredibly cool idea though :clap: The picture and quote alone were worth checking this class out. Thank you all very much. It's nice to feel the effort appreciated.
nighttree 02-08-08, 01:10 AM	These are just some random thoughts and ideas triggered by some of the posts. As someone who frequently asks for "balance checks" on my own stuff, I am making no claim that these would be balanced ;) Regarding BA: I do think it makes sense to keep the BA at normal progression for Warlock/Binder. Regarding Invocation & Binding progression: I have often seen comments to the effect that both Warlocks and Binders are sub optimal "casters", would it be to unbalancing to give full progression to both invokation & Binding ? Most of the other Warlock/Binder PrC I have seen do. Regarding "Bind Bloodline": This is the ability that really caught my attention. The "flavor" is awsome. Although the mechanics are a bit wierd when compared to a "normal" vestige, I think it is workable and very flavorfull. An "additional" idea that I had, either as an addition or replacement for one of the other granted abilities (possibly Relative resistance) would go something like this........ Ancestral Whispers: You hear the constant whisperings of your ancestors, granting you a +2 insight bonus to initiative checks, and all knowledge, listen, search, & spot checks. This bonus increases to +4 at 5th level, and +6 at 8th level.
Realms of Chaos 02-08-08, 10:13 AM	There is one more thing to take into account (which you might not have known due to your limited experience with binders). If you require a successful binder check to bind to a vestige, the influence will never come up, as the influence only affects someone who fails their binder check. I wouldn't require a successful binder check, but I don't think that there's wrong with a hindering influence like that below. Influence: You are overcome with delusions of grandeur, clouding your better judgement. Never believing yourself to require your full power, your eldritch bloodline requires that you never use invocations of the highest grade available to you. seems in line with what you're going for.
nighttree 02-14-08, 11:28 AM	Any updates ? :D
Celebgwath 02-16-08, 10:34 PM	My apologies to those of you keeping an eye on this class, I've recently moved and do not yet have Internet at my residence (and cannot predict when I will) so access to the web and this forum is sadly infrequent. I'm flattered that you were watching the thread, however. :) On the other hand, the boredom of a 400 mile drive through Wyoming and a week of on-again off-again job searching has left me with plenty of time to ponder matters... and this was one of them (along with two other PrCs reserved for some future day, perhaps). Regarding BAB: The BAB will be set to medium. Regarding Invocation/Binding Progression: This is another area where I may have overreacted and crippled the class excessively. On my long, dull drive I reached the conclusion that the class would not be unbalanced by a 9/10 invocation progression and 9/10 binding progression (consider this a given change for the next class-update). I am leery of full 10/10 until I feel confidant that the bloodline-vestige ability is balanced, but it is not out of the question. Regarding "Ancestral Whispers:" Relative resistance is without a doubt the weakest and most poorly-worded ability and would be first against the wall in view of something better. Your "Ancestral Whispers" has potential, though I'd consider rewriting it to match the scaling of the other abilities and such. I'll give it more consideration. Regarding Influence: Wow am I an idiot. Making it bindable only on good pacts is a total waste of the influence flavor and mechanic. Plus, a total oversight by me. Some sort of different penalty would certainly be required, like that you suggested. I will give this additional consideration as well. Regarding new things: I'm considering moving (or somehow tying) Revitalized Eldritch Blast to the bloodline-vestige and introducing this as a new capstone ability: Vestigal Kin: You may use your warlock caster level instead of your effective binder level to determine the benefits of scaling abilities granted by vestiges. Thoughts? Any updates ? :D If all goes well this week, and I get a reliable, accessible connection for a few uninterrupted hours, you can probably expect an "Eldritch Scion v2.0" before next weekend. Thank you all once again for your comments and interest. Stay tuned!
nighttree 02-16-08, 11:17 PM	My apologies to those of you keeping an eye on this class, I've recently moved and do not yet have Internet at my residence (and cannot predict when I will) so access to the web and this forum is sadly infrequent. I'm flattered that you were watching the thread, however. :) On the other hand, the boredom of a 400 mile drive through Wyoming and a week of on-again off-again job searching has left me with plenty of time to ponder matters... and this was one of them (along with two other PrCs reserved for some future day, perhaps). Regarding BAB: The BAB will be set to medium. Sounds good Regarding Invocation/Binding Progression: This is another area where I may have overreacted and crippled the class excessively. On my long, dull drive I reached the conclusion that the class would not be unbalanced by a 9/10 invocation progression and 9/10 binding progression (consider this a given change for the next class-update). I am leery of full 10/10 until I feel confidant that the bloodline-vestige ability is balanced, but it is not out of the question. I don't "think" a 10/10 would be unbalanced......but then again a 9/10 is a good "safe" zone. I actually took a look at the Bloodline Vestige, and compared it to suggestions from the articles for creating new vestiges. It "seems" to follow the suggested guidlines pretty well. It may be worth tossing over to the "Let's create some new vestiges" thread, and see how those with more vestige experience recieve it. Regarding "Ancestral Whispers:" Relative resistance is without a doubt the weakest and most poorly-worded ability and would be first against the wall in view of something better. Your "Ancestral Whispers" has potential, though I'd consider rewriting it to match the scaling of the other abilities and such. I'll give it more consideration. Just one of those random ideas that "pop" into my head when I get excited about an idea (thank you for that by the way). I have toyed around with a few aspects of the vestige. Sign: Your bloodline seeks to be heard through you, your voice is laced with the echoes of numerous voices. Ancestral Whispers: You hear the constant whispers of your ancestors, granting you a +2 insight bonus to initiative checks, and all knowledge, listen, search, & spot checks. This bonus increases to +4 as a 3rd level vestige, and +6 as a 5th level vestige. Regarding new things: I'm considering moving (or somehow tying) Revitalized Eldritch Blast to the bloodline-vestige and introducing this as a new capstone ability: Vestigal Kin: You may use your warlock caster level instead of your effective binder level to determine the benefits of scaling abilities granted by vestiges. Thoughts? Interesting Idea.....I'll take a look at it and see what it actually produces. If all goes well this week, and I get a reliable, accessible connection for a few uninterrupted hours, you can probably expect an "Eldritch Scion v2.0" before next weekend. Thank you all once again for your comments and interest. Stay tuned! Wonderful....thanks again for all the imaganitive "fodder". Hope the relocation thing goes well and smooth for you and yours :D
nighttree 02-16-08, 11:56 PM	Additional thoughts....... What if you presented the Bloodline Vestige as a "stand alone" vestige ? In other words, a 1st level vestige that a Warlock could take under any circumstances that allowed binding of a vestige. This would mean a Warlock could take a level of Binder, and take the vestige at it's first level of power, or could take the "Bind Vestige" feat...and gain one ability of the vestige. Then add "Bind Bloodline Vestige", to the prerequisites of the PrC. That way any Warlock wishing to access the scaling portion of the Vestige would need to take additional Binder levels (and hence the PrC) based on how much access they wanted to the vestige. Simply scale the Vestige from 1st level, to 3rd level, and then to 5th level (of course you could scale it higher if desired, but currently it falls at that ratio). Since the purpose of the Vestige as near as I can tell, is focused on increasing the Warlocks power via his bloodline, he could choose to either take the "Bind vestige" feat, gaining a little bit of a boost (choose one of the abilities of the Vestige at first level). Take a level of Binder (loosing 1 level of Warlock) to bind the vestige as a 1st level Binder, and gain all of it's first level powers (which balances out the loss, and gives a few bonuses). Take 3 level of Binder (loosing 3 levels of Warlock) and the "Improved Binding" feat (or five levels of binder/loosing five Warlock caster levels) to gain the next level of benifits. Enter the Prc, to gain access to increase in binder levels, granting access to the 5th level Vestige powers (or more if you choose to scale it higher), plus the additional abilities of the class.
Celebgwath 02-24-08, 07:06 PM	Had a pretty harried but ultimately ineffective week. I simply didn't have time for a rewrite. Please be patient, I will get it done eventually. Progression, I think, will be set to 9/10 on both sides (thought I have not given much thought as to where to put the non-progressing levels). Once I have more consistent time online I'd like to put the vestige on the other thread and try and get it balanced out but I'd like to be able to be more regular in my participation at the time. I think that sign also makes sense but I think there is an existing vestige with a similar sign. I don't have unpacked books so I can't check, sadly. I'm trying to decide how to interpret Ancestral Whispers if I go with one of that different vestige options I posted in an earlier response. I'm still undecided if I want it to be a vestige that scales in level or one that is a static level but scales in power. I'm actually leaning more to the latter at this point, since it's more like a regular vestige (no need to introduce more complexity). Divorcing the bloodline vestige from the class fully is something I hadn't really considered. I haven't yet found time to grind out some possible builds on that but I think it is certainly possible and really opens up some different entry builds and overall builds depending on how you choose to approach it. I do like that it opens up a lot more options for how you build a character but it would require a more significant number of tweaks to the PrC. Thank you for the excellent suggestions, hopefully I'll be able to provide some more thought out responses and proper changes in the coming week.
nighttree 02-25-08, 08:39 PM	LOL....no hurry, I put the thread in my "favorites" so I can check it from time to time.....:D See to LIFE, then when things calm down...."GET TO WORK" ;)
Celebgwath 02-26-08, 05:13 PM	On Divorcing the Bloodline-Vestige from the Prestige Class The first consideration I have to make is flavor-related; by making the bloodline-vestige available separately, this removes much of the core intent of the class as I have written it. Instead of learning to blend binding and invoking through the journey to full scion-hood, the class would instead need to focus on a character who is already in-touch with their bloodline and seeks to expand upon this ability instead. Honestly, this change is not so significant to dismiss the concept; it should be relatively plausible and easy to adjust the flavor of the PrC accordingly but it does remove most of the interesting mechanics and flavor from the class, so other abilities may need bolstering. My second consideration as I see it is creating the bloodline-vestige as a proper stand alone entity with a fitting power curve and making it a reasonable prerequisite for entering a PrC at a reasonable level. In the current state, Eldritch Scions can be entered as a Binder 3/Warlock 3, a Warlock 3/Binder 1 (Improved Binding Feat)/X 1, or a Warlock 3/Binder 1/X 1 with the Bind Vestige feat chain. This allows you to enter the PcR at 6th or 7th level, much like existing dual-progression PrCs (and I personally think the second option is best, as it allows entry at 6th and wastes no levels). For the PrC to still be entered at 6th/7th level or, alternatively, at 11th level, the bloodline vestige should be no more than 4th level in power. Realistically, it would probably need to be 1st or 2nd level for a PrC enterable by 6th level and 3rd or 4th for entry at 11th. For the moment, let us assume that the bloodline-vestige is balanced and it somewhere between levels 1 and 3. That means that, if the prerequisite for the PrC is "able to bind a bloodline-vestige, Eldritch Blast +2d6, least invocations, some-skill 8 ranks," the warlock side should be straight warlock 3 and binder-side entry requirements should look something like these options: Binder 1/3/5: Respectively allowing binding of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level vestiges, granting PrC entry at 5th, 6th, or 9th character level. Binder 1/3 + Improved Binding Feat: Respectively allowing binding of 1st and 2nd, or 3rd level vestiges, granting PrC entry at 5th or 6th character level. Bind Vestige Feat and Bind Vestige, Improved Feat: Allowing binding of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level vestiges but only granting a single ability, granting PrC entry at 5th character level. Clearly a 3rd level bloodline vestige is too impairing to obtain unless you want to significantly cripple either your binding or warlock side and move the PrC back to much later in the character build. As a result, I think a 1st or 2nd level bloodline-vestige is going to be the best option. Let's look at some build progressions. For a first level bloodline-vestige, the possible most-generic builds should look something like this, assuming 9/10 dual-progression, (showing gaps filled with warlock, then binder for your preference): Warlock 4/Binder 1/Scion 10/Warlock +5 (Warlock CL: 18, EBL: 10); Warlock 3/Binder 2/Scion 10/Binder +5 (Warlock CL: 12, EBL: 16); No feats. Warlock 5/Scion 10/Warlock +5 (Warlock CL: 19, EBL: 9); Warlock 5/Scion 10/Binder +5 (Warlock CL: 14, EBL: 14); Bind Vestige as a feat. For a second level bloodline-vestige: Warlock 3/Binder 3/Scion 10/Warlock +4 (Warlock CL: 16, EBL: 12); Warlock 3/Binder 3/Scion 10/Binder +4 (Warlock CL: 12, EBL: 16); No feats. Warlock 4/Binder 1/Scion 10/Warlock +5 (Warlock CL: 18, EBL: 10); Warlock 3/Binder 2/Scion 10/Binder +5 (Warlock CL: 12, EBL: 16); Improved Binding as a feat. Warlock 5/Scion 10/Warlock +5 (Warlock CL: 19, EBL: 9); Warlock 5/Scion 10/Binder +5 (Warlock CL: 14, EBL: 14); Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige as feats. Lastly, should you choose to eschew the PrC altogether, you could gain limited effects with the following builds, from most-warlock favored to most binder favored: Warlock 20; Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige as feats. Only grants one vestige ability to improve warlock abilities and takes up to two very valuable feat slots. Warlock 19/Binder 1 or Warlock 17/Binder 3 (depending on vestige level); Very, very weak binding but almost full warlock progression. If anything, the bloodline vestige will grant you superior or equivalent warlock abilities to warlock 20 but with fewer invocations known. Would work OK with Practiced Spellcaster and Extra Invocation. Warlock X/Binder Y; Darn near straight multiclassing but your warlock side will be slightly more buff than usual--should you choose to forgo a vestige that probably will outclass your bloodline-vestige. Better than straight multiclassing but just a bad character in general. Binder 20; Just like a regular binder 20 but with an option to be a chummy warlock on occasion. OK, so that's a huge mess of progressions and such but what you should take away from this is that, for the most amount of build flexibility and effectiveness, the bloodline-vestige should be 1st or 2nd level. Let's say second level since it has slightly more variation in build options and has more potential for scaling and reasonable power, as well as more or less matching the existing entry requirements of the PrC. What else needs to be considered? Assuming all I change is making the bloodline-vestige a prerequisite instead of a class feature, I can instead move the various other class features to different levels to cover the gap. So what has changed from the PrC as before? Basically NOTHING. By the time you finish the PrC you are going to have almost exactly the same abilities, just granted at a different pace. In fact, if I go back and remove the "soul binding class feature" prerequisite from the class as-is, the same degree of build flexibility is introduced. So after all this typing and consideration, I think I will make some changes for version 2.0 (as this has been quite though provoking) based on these considerations: The bloodline-vestige will be a class feature, a static 3rd level vestige with partial scaling of abilities based on EBL. You may take a feat with the same name as the class feature to bind the bloodline-vestige as a straight binder with no levels in the scion PrC. Thus, any binder of third level or greater with improved binding (or 5th level binder) can play warlock at will. Or anyone willing to burn three feats can play a horrible one. I will be dropping the "soul binding class feature" prerequisite from the class. I will be adjusting some class features according to the above. Edit: Completed an edit for version 2. Comments still welcome.
nighttree 02-26-08, 11:32 PM	I guess I'm looking at it as using the vestige as an "incentive" to multiclass in the first place. The idea of the vestige scaling in level is a bit of a different idea in and of itself. So perhaps looking at it as a vestige that scales up through the levels, thus when you are able to bind 5th level vestige's, it becomes a 5th level vestige, and grants increased power accordingly, giving incentive to take a PrC that allows a Warlock to also progress it's bloodline vestige attractive. I'm not suggesting changing the entire vestige each level, but perhaps looking at a steady scaling through the normal level range for a vestige, so that too gain greater power, you must increase both Warlock and binder levels (example: +1D6 to EB for each effective level of the vestige....although that's probably a bit much, but you get the idea). Even with all the feats/tricks available to increase binder level, you will need the PrC to gain maximum benifit. What I would look at....... binder features that are independant of vestige (Pact augmentations spring to mind), as well as the flexability that the "bloodline vestige" itself brings to the mix (variable invocations from day to day etc....). Scaling of Vestige abilities that make it attractive to follow the PrC all the way to the end. I still need to absorb much of your post, so I'll give it some more though. This is an AWSOME IDEA........BTW