Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ornsjach 10-13-07, 10:01 PM	if i take elemental savant (cold) with energy substitution could i use energy substitution (fire) to make fire spells or would elemental savant stop me?
runestar 10-13-07, 10:52 PM	The savant would stop you.
ornsjach 10-13-07, 10:55 PM	OK. but i have to ask the question out of curiosity why it would stop me and how that works.
Nephlite 10-13-07, 11:00 PM	OK. but i have to ask the question out of curiosity why it would stop me and how that works. It uses Energy substitution to change all spells your focused element. Yes, you can'r undo it. You could admixture it, but your original energy is now your favored. Class ability gained at first level. Do not pass go, it just is. That is the point of the class all energy attacks become your favored element.
Grod_The_Giant 10-13-07, 11:03 PM	while it's tecnically true that all your attacks are automatically changed to your chosen energy type, I think many DMs (I do, at least) would allow it to be an optional ability.
ornsjach 10-13-07, 11:07 PM	hmm how... disapointing... it seemed such a promising PrC unfortunately for me living greyhawk goes by the strictest rules of the game and thus it usefulness gets severely degraded. /sigh
runestar 10-13-07, 11:18 PM	My rationale is that it is a matter of timing. The ES's ability is a continuous effect which keeps reverting the spell's damage type back to the chosen element at all times, regardless of whatever effort was put in to change the damage type to another element. For a wizard who prepared a substituted fireball, no chance, the spell was converted back long before you ever got to cast it. For a sorc who modifies the spell on the fly, it is changed as you cast it, then when it is finished casting and is just about to leave your hands (or whatever appendage you cast said spell with), ES kicks in and changes it back. Bottom line - I doubt there is any way to work around this (not even archmage's mastery of elements or born of 3 thunders). Nor would I allow it anyways, since it was clearly mean to be a liability (though it can be a benefit in the right circumstance), and certainly not one which should be worked around that readily, if at all.
zeratulcraft 10-13-07, 11:23 PM	Couldn't an Incantrix throw a metamagic feat on it after it's been cast? Thus when it leaves you, it's fire or whatever, in mid flight it gets changed to Cold or something.
goawayugh 10-15-07, 08:28 AM	Bottom line - I doubt there is any way to work around this (not even archmage's mastery of elements or born of 3 thunders). Nor would I allow it anyways, since it was clearly mean to be a liability (though it can be a benefit in the right circumstance), and certainly not one which should be worked around that readily, if at all.Once again, I completely agree with you. It is a pretty good class, except for that big disadvantage (which it is clearly meant to be one). Couldn't an Incantrix throw a metamagic feat on it after it's been cast? Thus when it leaves you, it's fire or whatever, in mid flight it gets changed to Cold or something.I just reread the Incantatrix (no one ever remembers that little "ta" in the middle) and I didn't notice anything about what you are talking about. Please explain... (unless I'm just being blind)
zeratulcraft 10-16-07, 05:00 AM	I just reread the Incantatrix (no one ever remembers that little "ta" in the middle) and I didn't notice anything about what you are talking about. Please explain... (unless I'm just being blind) "Cooperative Metamagic: At 2nd level, an incantatrix gains the ability to apply any metamagic feat she possesses (except Silent, Still, Quicken) to any spell being cast by a willing allied spellcaster." Energy Substitution being a metamagic feat. Thus being able to change any spell being cast by a allied person into whatever energy type desired by the incantatrix, which would prolly have been requested by the original caster in the first place.
goawayugh 10-16-07, 07:19 AM	"Cooperative Metamagic: At 2nd level, an incantatrix gains the ability to apply any metamagic feat she possesses (except Silent, Still, Quicken) to any spell being cast by a willing allied spellcaster." Energy Substitution being a metamagic feat. Thus being able to change any spell being cast by a allied person into whatever energy type desired by the incantatrix, which would prolly have been requested by the original caster in the first place. This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803) is the Incantatrix I was reading. Is this different than the one in the actual book (I don't own that one)? Or is there really an Incantrix class (without the "ta" in the middle)? Even so, I'm interpreting that differently than you are. I'm reading it as applying the metamagic feat to your allies spell as if he had it. Basically it gives your ally access to your metamagic feats. They are not applied after the spell is cast.
zeratulcraft 10-17-07, 02:02 AM	The one I'm reading from is in Player's Guide to Faerun, and yes its Incantatrix, and fair enough at that ruling. I figure it's they cast the spell, then you add your metamagic onto the end, hence why you can't apply Still, Silent or Quicken, because the other person has to cast it first. If it was just acting as if the person knew those feats, then you could Quicken it for them, for example. IMO atleast.
Garonak 10-17-07, 03:02 AM	Just a note on Elemental Savant: If you take the Searing Spell metamagic feat from Sandstorm and choose Fire as you're element you will still be able to hurt creatures with fire res and immunity. It ignores resistance and half the damage goes through immunity. Personally I find that Warmage is the best base class for Elemental Savant. Another possibility is to go Warmage/Elemental Savant (Cold)/Frostmage (Frostburn, a bit more feat heavy, requires two feats that are not that good outside... err... the North Pole), but the Piercing Cold feat (Frostburn) isn't quite as good as Searing, because Piercing doesn't hurt creatures with cold subtype.
goawayugh 10-17-07, 07:49 AM	The one I'm reading from is in Player's Guide to Faerun, and yes its Incantatrix, and fair enough at that ruling. I figure it's they cast the spell, then you add your metamagic onto the end, hence why you can't apply Still, Silent or Quicken, because the other person has to cast it first. If it was just acting as if the person knew those feats, then you could Quicken it for them, for example. IMO atleast. I can see your point. Still don't agree with it though. Silent, Still, and Quicken seem more of a modification of how you physically cast the spell (speaking, gestures, or doing both REALLY fast). Whereas other metamagic feats modify the spell's parameters. And since you are not the one who is going through all the physical requirements to cast the spell (V & S components), then you can't modify them, only the spell itself. But, just as if the caster had all the appropriate feats, all the metamagic feats get applied at the same time; when the spell is being cast, not after.
zeratulcraft 10-17-07, 08:40 AM	I can see your point. Still don't agree with it though. Silent, Still, and Quicken seem more of a modification of how you physically cast the spell (speaking, gestures, or doing both REALLY fast). Whereas other metamagic feats modify the spell's parameters. And since you are not the one who is going through all the physical requirements to cast the spell (V & S components), then you can't modify them, only the spell itself. But, just as if the caster had all the appropriate feats, all the metamagic feats get applied at the same time; when the spell is being cast, not after. Yeah, I see your point to that, I understand it and it makes perfect sense. I really have no disagreement with it, but I like the idea of a spell changing energy type mid flight. How cool would it be to see a ball of fire suddenly change to a ball of lightning, that'd be trippy.