Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aahzimandious 05-25-07, 09:14 PM	Epic Mystic Theurge: My character has reached the point to become an EMT (cleric/wizard) and need to better understand how the spell/level progression works as my DM and I are at odds about it. Wizard (5 base levels + 10 virtual spell caster levels via Mystic Theurge) Cleric (5 base levels + 10 virtual spell caster levels via Mystic Theurge) Mystic Theurge(10) The problem is regarding how the level progression is beyond that. I think that it should be as this: Character Level (21) Wizard(5+1(via EMT) base levels + [10+1 via MT + EMT virtual levels] ) Cleric(5 base levels + 10 virtual spell caster levels via Mystic Theurge) Mystic Theurge(10) Epic Mystic Theurge(1) Casting Wizard spells as a 17 level Wizard, but only the perks/benefits of a 6 level Wizard Casting Cleric spells as a 15 level Cleric, but only the perks/benefits of a 5 level Cleric. And then... Character Level (22) Wizard(5+1(via EMT) base levels + [10+1 via (MT + EMT virtual levels] ) Cleric(5+1(via EMT) base levels + [10+1 via MT + EMT virtual levels]) Mystic Theurge(10) Epic Mystic Theurge(2) Casting Wizard spells as a 17 level Wizard, and the perks/benefits of a 6 level Wizard, like a Familiar) Casting Cleric spells as a 17 level Cleric, and the perks/benefits of a 6 level Cleric, like Turning. Repeating the pattern as levels progress.... Is the correct? If not, what is? Thanks in advance...
StevenO 05-25-07, 10:53 PM	Epic MT grants +1 arcane Spellcasting on odd levels and +1 divine on even levels. Starting with a W5/C5/MT10 going MT11 makes spellcasting equivalent W16/C15, next MT12 spellcasting equalls W16/C16. Once it reached Epic level Mystic Theurge only grants spellcasting improvement in once class each level instead of two. That is all they gain and it makes Epic MT something that isn't very appealing.
Aahzimandious 05-26-07, 12:29 AM	Epic MT grants +1 arcane Spellcasting on odd levels and +1 divine on even levels. Starting with a W5/C5/MT10 going MT11 makes spellcasting equivalent W16/C15, next MT12 spellcasting equalls W16/C16. Once it reached Epic level Mystic Theurge only grants spellcasting improvement in once class each level instead of two. That is all they gain and it makes Epic MT something that isn't very appealing. First off, Thank you for the response... So what they are effectively saying with: ... she gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), as if she had gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class she belonged to previously, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known by that class. Her caster level in that class also increases by +1. The 'virutal' casting level that a MT has been getting, the MT still gets every other level, and a bonus feat every once in a great while? If that is the case, that does bite. No wonder people bad mouth the power of a MT. I like it for RP basis and spread of things to do. But as you describe, it'll be level 24 before being able to cast 9th level spells/prayers. hrm.. for the loss of turning and high powered familiars, it's not bad trade, I guess.. Except the bonus Epic feat.. there's no real reason to continue of along the MT Epic line if the MT also want the turning/fam's progression... Unless.... In your case, is the Wizard 6th?+10 or is that Wizard 5th+11? There is really a BIG difference in how that makes things work (ie undead turning/familiars).. If you got the REAL level every other level for each class. If it is W6+10 it brings it back into the 'not so bad of progress' process as you start to improve the benefit abilities of the chracter. Thanks again!
Ertai Planeswalker 05-26-07, 04:50 AM	EMT gets 1 bonus feat every 6 levels. If you alternate between wizards and cleric you'll have the same casterlevel increases, but also improved turning etc. It's better to get levels in archmage and/or Hierophant. That said, if i were a DM i'd rule that the epic MT does get a casterlevel of both classes every level, and give a epic feat every 4 instead of 6 levels. Because if i wouldn't, then the EMT would suck.
navar100 05-26-07, 11:34 AM	Epic MT grants +1 arcane Spellcasting on odd levels and +1 divine on even levels. Starting with a W5/C5/MT10 going MT11 makes spellcasting equivalent W16/C15, next MT12 spellcasting equalls W16/C16. Once it reached Epic level Mystic Theurge only grants spellcasting improvement in once class each level instead of two. That is all they gain and it makes Epic MT something that isn't very appealing. I know that's how it's done, but it's stupid. Why bother raising Mystic Theurge then? You could just as easily increase wizard at odd levels and cleric at even levels or maybe arcane prestige at odd and divine prestige at even. The whole point of the prestige class is to raise both arcane and divine casting with one level. Why this should change for Epic makes no sense.
StevenO 05-26-07, 09:38 PM	I don't make the rules (although I occasionally bend them) but just report them. Except for the occasional bonus Epic Feat the Epic MT is no better than alternating Wizard/Cleric levels. In some ways you may be better off advancing each side seperately anyway as you'd get your normal Wizard Bonus Feats and familiar advancement while the cleric has a better HD and advances turning. Even in epic the MT doesn't actually increase your previous casting class (no 6+10) but instead it acts like it alway has (5+11). As for why the Epic MT is so poor is because if it did advance both spellcasting types it would then be too good; maybe not for a "balanced" character early on but one who has only devoted three levels to cleric (or less likely wizard) will see those extra casting abilities add up quickly. If you want to maximize the character at 20th level you should be heavy on one side of your casting ability. Changes are allowed but you should expect to cast as 17th and 13th level equivalents.
MysticTraveler 05-28-07, 01:10 AM	Please state your source(s) for this change at epic level. Is it in the Epic Handbook? Thanks!
farfairer 05-28-07, 02:41 AM	Please state your source(s) for this change at epic level. Is it in the Epic Handbook? Thanks! The Epic Handbook is technically 3.0 The 3.5 information on epic classes and PRCs is here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a Pages 5-6. Personally I agree that there is no reason to take EMT. There is nothing in the rules that states that the bonus metamagic feat/ crafting feat you gain as a Wizard cannot be an epic feat. Personally though I would rather go from Wizard 5/ Cleric 5/ MT 10 into Loremaster. You get cool class features, can raise either caster level as you wish (loremaster does not need to be arcane or divine), you get a better skill list, and more skill points.
JulesCARV 05-28-07, 02:47 AM	If you take straight wizard levels rather than epic mystic theurge levels, you'll get a bonus feat every 5 levels rather than every 6 levels, and you'll also get familiar progression. Of course, you'll miss out on cleric levels, but you'll get twice as many wizard levels, and I'd say it's better to focus on one than alternate anyway at this point, and keep your cleric levels for buffing, healing, and other no-SR stuff. (Some might argue that the bonus feats you'd get at your 10th, 15th, and 20th wizard levels can't be epic, although I'm not entirely persuaded by this argument, so long as the epic feat you take is item creation or metamagic.)
Witch 05-28-07, 11:50 AM	EMT gets 1 bonus feat every 6 levels. If you alternate between wizards and cleric you'll have the same casterlevel increases, but also improved turning etc. It's better to get levels in archmage and/or Hierophant. That said, if i were a DM i'd rule that the epic MT does get a casterlevel of both classes every level, and give a epic feat every 4 instead of 6 levels. Because if i wouldn't, then the EMT would suck. And doing it your way makes Wizards and Clerics obsolete. People who try to fix the Epic Mystic Theurge by continueing its non-epic progression overpower it drastically.
Mark_Constantino 05-28-07, 11:51 AM	You're better off taking alternating Wizard and Cleric levels than MT epic levels once you reach past LVL 20. That way you get increased turn undead and wizard bonus feats, familiar progression.
Witch 05-28-07, 11:54 AM	I know that's how it's done, but it's stupid. Why bother raising Mystic Theurge then? You could just as easily increase wizard at odd levels and cleric at even levels or maybe arcane prestige at odd and divine prestige at even. Why? Epic Bonus feats. Below 50th level, you get more as a Mystic Theurge. The whole point of the prestige class is to raise both arcane and divine casting with one level. Why this should change for Epic makes no sense. Because at Epic, the "you're 1.5 spell levels behind" balancing factor is entirely gone through the window, Epic spell slots are doubled and your caster level will only be minorly different if you continue the non-epic progression. What needs to be done is something like this: 11: +A 12: +A & +D 13: +D 14: +D & +A 15: +A 16: +A & +D; Bonus Feat 17: +D ... etcetera. This would be more balanced than currently. If you don't like this, make it more customisable by using the following: 11: +A 12: +D; choose either to increase by 1. 13: +A 14: +D; choose either to increase by 1. ...etcetera.
navar100 05-28-07, 06:44 PM	?? At epic levels finally the Mystic Theurge can cast 9th level arcane spells and 9th level divine spells. That's not a bug; that's a feature. Ur-Priest cheese allows for this before Epic, but now the more likely generically easier to achieve builds will have this. Improved Spell Capacity can only be applied to an arcane slot or divine slot, not both. Epic Spell casting is its own thing separate from spell progression.
Witch 05-29-07, 05:26 AM	At epic levels finally the Mystic Theurge can cast 9th level arcane spells and 9th level divine spells. That's not a bug; that's a feature. Ur-Priest cheese allows for this before Epic, but now the more likely generically easier to achieve builds will have this. Ur-Priest cheese has an extremely low caster level. There's no inherent problem in being able to cast both 9th level arcane and divine spells - it just needs to come with a price: lower caster level. Improved Spell Capacity can only be applied to an arcane slot or divine slot, not both. And ISC can be taken only for arcane or only for divine, as well. Epic Spell casting is its own thing separate from spell progression. Yes, but a Mystic Theurge generally fulfills two sets of prerequisites and hence receives two sets of epic spell slots.
navar100 05-30-07, 02:15 AM	Ur-Priest cheese has an extremely low caster level. There's no inherent problem in being able to cast both 9th level arcane and divine spells - it just needs to come with a price: lower caster level. And ISC can be taken only for arcane or only for divine, as well. Yes, but a Mystic Theurge generally fulfills two sets of prerequisites and hence receives two sets of epic spell slots. A non-Ur Pirest Mystic Theurge has a lower caster level, unless the character takes Practiced Spellcaster, twice if it really matters to him. That's a two feat commitment. Improved Spell Capacity is also feat expensive. Epic Spellcasting is neither arcane nor divine. It just is. (From memory, probably faulty.) For example, a plain old wizard could cast Contigent Resurrection. A plain old cleric could cast Hellball. They are treated as 10th level spells for DC purposes, but they aren't 10th level spell slots. They are just Epic Spell slots, thus one set. (Amiable to be corrected.) Presuming I am corrected, I still say it wouldn't make the prestige class broken to improve both spellcasting progressions.