Fiend Blooded and Warlocks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fiend Blooded and Warlocks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Duelpersonality
09-04-07, 10:44 AM I'm starting a new campaign, and one of my players is going to play a CE warlock. He was looking through PrCs and really liked fiend blooded (from Heroes of Horror). Technically warlocks do not qualify (requires the ability to cast 2nd-level spells spontaneously). I have seen on here that this is sometimes not a problem (i.e. arcane trickster).

My question is, how balanced would this be to add to a warlock? Most of the class abilities are not a problem (for those without the book, fiend blooded is essentially the same as dragon disciple for the half-fiend template, though it has 9/10 spellcasting progression). The problem I see is that the class gives five bonus spells known. For a sorcerer or bard this is not such a problem, however upping a warlock's invocations known from 12 to 17 seems like it might be a bit much. He would have a lower hit die and slower BAB progression by taking fiend blooded, but he doesn't consider that to be too much of a problem for the bonuses he will receive.

If I disallow fiend blooded he will most likely take demonbinder (from Drow of the Underdark), which has the same BAB, HD and spellcasting reductions and was specifically designed for warlocks.
imakuni67
09-04-07, 10:52 AM Instead of giving bonus invocations, instead count the PRC levels (or half the levels) as effective levels towards getting invocations.
R4za
09-04-07, 11:09 AM It already has 9/10 spellcasting advancement, which advances invocations.

I went and read the class, and yeah, I think granting blanc extra invokations would be a bit much. The bonus spell feature has restrictions that would be difficult to apply to invocations because they concern descriptors and schools, and leaving those absent would further overpower the feature. Leaving it out entirely might be a bit much too, though.

I think I'd either redesign the class feature entirely, probably granting a smaller number of pre-selected custom invokations, or just say that the warlock can only choose Elditch Essence invocations. This fits with the flavour of aggressive energies in the ability's restrictions, and while it'd be useful for the sake of versatility it wouldn't be overpowering because you can only apply one essence to a blast at a time anyway. The average optimised warlock only keeps two or so essence invokations at higher levels, so even if they played smart and used all their normal invokations for other things they'd only have two generic invokations more than usual - and since the PrC takes two lame feats to enter from the already feat-starved warlock, which could've been spent on Extra Invocation feats, that seems about right.

This would still make it a very attractive PrC to warlocks, imo, but no more so than the Hellfire Warlock. If the same character doesn't take both, things should be arright.
Duelpersonality
09-04-07, 11:34 AM I think I'd either redesign the class feature entirely, probably granting a smaller number of pre-selected custom invokations, or just say that the warlock can only choose Elditch Essence invocations. This fits with the flavour of aggressive energies in the ability's restrictions, and while it'd be useful for the sake of versatility it wouldn't be overpowering because you can only apply one essence to a blast at a time anyway. The average optimised warlock only keeps two or so essence invokations at higher levels, so even if they played smart and used all their normal invokations for other things they'd only have two generic invokations more than usual - and since the PrC takes two lame feats to enter from the already feat-starved warlock, which could've been spent on Extra Invocation feats, that seems about right.

Thanks for the advice. That does seem like a very good idea. It might steer him away from the class as he didn't want any essence invocations, but then it would add a few more options for him to choose from. As for the feats, we had discussed changing Eschew Materials to something else, though what I don't know. Perhaps Fiendish Heritage?

This would still make it a very attractive PrC to warlocks, imo, but no more so than the Hellfire Warlock. If the same character doesn't take both, things should be arright.

He is specifically avoiding Hellfire Warlock, so no problems there.
R4za
09-04-07, 02:34 PM Enschew Materials would be ridiculously futile, yes, to the point of equating to simply saying "You must give up a feat to enter this class". And Blood Calls to Blood is painfully bad, even if it's generic enough to apply.

You could replace Enschew Materials with Fiendish Heritage, but the granted bonuses overlap redundantly with what's already granted by the later levels of the Fiend Blooded class. If you want to go this route, I'd replace both of the required feats with Fiendish Heritage and Fiendish Power (one of the feats with requires and builds on Fiendish Heritage). The latter grants a +1 to caster level and save DCs for spells and invocations, which actually meshes nicely with a class that grands you tons of essence invocations. (even if it is strictly inferior to Ability Focus(Eldritch Blast) )

That way he gets one poor feat and one acceptable mechanically compatible one, plus the both of them are a better thematic fit and the synnergy between them and the character's abilities won't leave him feeling they're dead weight.

Another minor plus would be that the main reason to play a warlock without essence invocations is to leave Cha as a dump stat because it only really affects save DCs of essences, so boosting that a little might take some pressure of him having to rearrange his stats.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Duelpersonality 09-04-07, 10:44 AM	I'm starting a new campaign, and one of my players is going to play a CE warlock. He was looking through PrCs and really liked fiend blooded (from Heroes of Horror). Technically warlocks do not qualify (requires the ability to cast 2nd-level spells spontaneously). I have seen on here that this is sometimes not a problem (i.e. arcane trickster). My question is, how balanced would this be to add to a warlock? Most of the class abilities are not a problem (for those without the book, fiend blooded is essentially the same as dragon disciple for the half-fiend template, though it has 9/10 spellcasting progression). The problem I see is that the class gives five bonus spells known. For a sorcerer or bard this is not such a problem, however upping a warlock's invocations known from 12 to 17 seems like it might be a bit much. He would have a lower hit die and slower BAB progression by taking fiend blooded, but he doesn't consider that to be too much of a problem for the bonuses he will receive. If I disallow fiend blooded he will most likely take demonbinder (from Drow of the Underdark), which has the same BAB, HD and spellcasting reductions and was specifically designed for warlocks.
imakuni67 09-04-07, 10:52 AM	Instead of giving bonus invocations, instead count the PRC levels (or half the levels) as effective levels towards getting invocations.
R4za 09-04-07, 11:09 AM	It already has 9/10 spellcasting advancement, which advances invocations. I went and read the class, and yeah, I think granting blanc extra invokations would be a bit much. The bonus spell feature has restrictions that would be difficult to apply to invocations because they concern descriptors and schools, and leaving those absent would further overpower the feature. Leaving it out entirely might be a bit much too, though. I think I'd either redesign the class feature entirely, probably granting a smaller number of pre-selected custom invokations, or just say that the warlock can only choose Elditch Essence invocations. This fits with the flavour of aggressive energies in the ability's restrictions, and while it'd be useful for the sake of versatility it wouldn't be overpowering because you can only apply one essence to a blast at a time anyway. The average optimised warlock only keeps two or so essence invokations at higher levels, so even if they played smart and used all their normal invokations for other things they'd only have two generic invokations more than usual - and since the PrC takes two lame feats to enter from the already feat-starved warlock, which could've been spent on Extra Invocation feats, that seems about right. This would still make it a very attractive PrC to warlocks, imo, but no more so than the Hellfire Warlock. If the same character doesn't take both, things should be arright.
Duelpersonality 09-04-07, 11:34 AM	I think I'd either redesign the class feature entirely, probably granting a smaller number of pre-selected custom invokations, or just say that the warlock can only choose Elditch Essence invocations. This fits with the flavour of aggressive energies in the ability's restrictions, and while it'd be useful for the sake of versatility it wouldn't be overpowering because you can only apply one essence to a blast at a time anyway. The average optimised warlock only keeps two or so essence invokations at higher levels, so even if they played smart and used all their normal invokations for other things they'd only have two generic invokations more than usual - and since the PrC takes two lame feats to enter from the already feat-starved warlock, which could've been spent on Extra Invocation feats, that seems about right. Thanks for the advice. That does seem like a very good idea. It might steer him away from the class as he didn't want any essence invocations, but then it would add a few more options for him to choose from. As for the feats, we had discussed changing Eschew Materials to something else, though what I don't know. Perhaps Fiendish Heritage? This would still make it a very attractive PrC to warlocks, imo, but no more so than the Hellfire Warlock. If the same character doesn't take both, things should be arright. He is specifically avoiding Hellfire Warlock, so no problems there.
R4za 09-04-07, 02:34 PM	Enschew Materials would be ridiculously futile, yes, to the point of equating to simply saying "You must give up a feat to enter this class". And Blood Calls to Blood is painfully bad, even if it's generic enough to apply. You could replace Enschew Materials with Fiendish Heritage, but the granted bonuses overlap redundantly with what's already granted by the later levels of the Fiend Blooded class. If you want to go this route, I'd replace both of the required feats with Fiendish Heritage and Fiendish Power (one of the feats with requires and builds on Fiendish Heritage). The latter grants a +1 to caster level and save DCs for spells and invocations, which actually meshes nicely with a class that grands you tons of essence invocations. (even if it is strictly inferior to Ability Focus(Eldritch Blast) ) That way he gets one poor feat and one acceptable mechanically compatible one, plus the both of them are a better thematic fit and the synnergy between them and the character's abilities won't leave him feeling they're dead weight. Another minor plus would be that the main reason to play a warlock without essence invocations is to leave Cha as a dump stat because it only really affects save DCs of essences, so boosting that a little might take some pressure of him having to rearrange his stats.