Fiend Folio - Fiend of Possession [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fiend Folio - Fiend of Possession [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MindWorX
09-23-07, 10:51 AM Hey,

I'm currently in a campaign, where I'm playing an evil character, and I've been looking at the Fiend of Possession as a prestige class I would like to have. But looking over it, the only thing I actually like about it, is the idea... I don't like the balance of it at all, so i was wondering if someone have made something like it at some point that i might be able to use instead?

Just to clarify, the things i find overpowered is the fact that i can control and animate gargantuan objects, "Here have this mountain, reflex save that!", and the ability to give enhancement equal to the level i have the class in, which i can add to the already existing enhancements, and i can even add to a non-magic-non-masterwork item too. That means, if we were to be captured in some dungeon, i could find a random stick, call it a Club, hand it to our fighter, possess the item, and yay, +2 Acidic Frost Club of Neverending Hurt. On top of that, i can go ethereal at will too. And mind you, with the classes I'm taking right now, i can take my first level in the prestige class at my 4th level. So, any ideas? Or maybe, just tell me some weaknesses this class has.
Khatoblepas
09-23-07, 12:48 PM How are you getting the Evil subtype at level 4? o_O
MindWorX
09-23-07, 01:19 PM Well, that's a little change i made, i'm playing an evil undead, and me and my gm agreed that that would be a fair substitute :)
Khatoblepas
09-23-07, 03:13 PM You can't get into the Fiend of Possession as an evil subtyped undead! It requires Outsider. o_O.

I don't see what the problem with it is, personally. You're entering it illegally, when it's meant for LA'ed fiends. You can't say a class is overpowered when you houserule something in specifically for it. o_O

If you entered it properly, say, with an Imp or Quasit, it would be the only thing you could do. Succubus might be better, but eh. You'd still be a fiend with fiendish abilities.

So yes, the mitigation is the fact that you have to be a fairly high ECL Outsider (evil) to get in, or a Tiefling who jumps through hoops to get the evil subtype. It's +1 LA on it's own, you know (source: Savage Species)
MindWorX
09-24-07, 03:42 PM You can't get into the Fiend of Possession as an evil subtyped undead! It requires Outsider. o_O. It's called, "houserules", look it up ;).

I don't see what the problem with it is, personally. You're entering it illegally, when it's meant for LA'ed fiends. You can't say a class is overpowered when you houserule something in specifically for it. o_O

If you entered it properly, say, with an Imp or Quasit, it would be the only thing you could do. Succubus might be better, but eh. You'd still be a fiend with fiendish abilities.

So yes, the mitigation is the fact that you have to be a fairly high ECL Outsider (evil) to get in, or a Tiefling who jumps through hoops to get the evil subtype. It's +1 LA on it's own, you know (source: Savage Species)

I totally forgot about the LA that would normally make them get the prestige class later... I guess that pretty much balances it out... Tho, it still seems rather powerfull.
Khatoblepas
09-24-07, 06:00 PM It's called, "houserules", look it up ;).
Firstly, you didn't state it in your first post, so don't take that tone with me. I'm not psychic, don't assume I am. Fair substitute for what, by the way? What does the evil subtype gain you other than the prereqs for this class? Able to overcome DR/evil with your natural weapons and be affected as if you were evil regardless of your alignment?

I totally forgot about the LA that would normally make them get the prestige class later... I guess that pretty much balances it out... Tho, it still seems rather powerfull.

- This class was primarily made for NPCs.
- This class was made for Outsider (evil)s, in the realms of high LA or jumping through hoops.
- You changed the prerequisites so that you could get in, but failed to change them so that it couldn't be entered before 5th level.
- You complain that it's overpowered when you can.

I really don't see the problem. It's more your houserules than the class itself. Yes, the class is strong but it's supposed to be for NPC fiends - it's in a monster book! For PCs, it could be a little strong but that's why the prerequisites are there. A Succubus can't really contribute much to a 12th level party (since monsters begin to be hard to grapple for energy drain and have immunity to mind-affecting effects), but taking levels in this class ensures she can. The cheese, in fact, is not in the possessing of objects...

... it's taking over the mind of an enemy spellcaster and using their spells. It's getting a meaty construct body from which to deliver your SLAs. Very fun, someone made a build about it. But usually, this class is only enterable by ECL8-12 if you want a good base, and the nicer tricks can't be done until ECL17-18. The build made use of Incarnum (to gain the evil subtype later on) and even the ritual to gain the evil subtype takes more dosh than a 4th level character has.

But don't complain about a prestige class for fiends being overpowered if you change the prerequisites so that you can enter early. The prereqs are there for a reason.
goawayugh
09-25-07, 11:09 AM 1. Any houserules should be stated in your first post. If none are stated, then it is assumed that you are playing the way the game should be played...by the rules.

2. Fiend Folio is 3.0. Many 3.0 things were not balanced right (anyone remember 3.0 harm?).

3. It is in a monster book because it was designed to be taken by monsters. The Outsider (evil) prereq is, by far, the hardest prereq of that PrC. Houseruling an easy way past this is just foolish. This class was meant to make demons and devils a challenge to higher ECL party's.
MindWorX
09-25-07, 06:56 PM Point taken on the LA. The houserule thing, please calm down a little, i said it in the 2nd post of mine, that we agreed Evil Undead was an okay substitute. If that doens't scream houserule, then i don't know what does.

But i've realized that this prc wasn't meant to be played by a low level, so i'll see what else i can find that doesn't scream "waste of levels", since we're playing a very low powered campaign, levels are like 2 months apart atm.
dungeonfrog
09-28-07, 05:45 PM You can limit the number of times per day it can become ethereal.

Restricting the animation of objects (Cr of object must be equal or less then you Class level) helps.

Balancing the "enhance sticks a lot" problem:

Going ethereal leaves a body behind, which is vulnerable to attack.

That stick remain a normal stick (or club) and is for the opponent easy as pie to sunder.
If you don't encounter any opponents with that trick you can look it from another perspective: assuming that your party consists of four PC's (including you), your party members will loose one able hand when you are bussy possessing a club.

Or you chance the amount of gold to 500 gp/ HD (which is still 2,000 gp or a +1 enchantment).
Khatoblepas
09-28-07, 06:28 PM If you don't encounter any opponents with that trick you can look it from another perspective: assuming that your party consists of four PC's (including you), your party members will loose one able hand when you are bussy possessing a club.

Which is why you possess a construct, oh yeah! :D

As seen in Triad of Shadow's Anadriel (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=625656).

Personally, I love the FoP.

Also, does it say it leaves a body behind? I thought it moved your entire form over to the Ethereal Plane?
MindWorX
09-29-07, 02:59 AM It doesn't say it leaves the body behind, it was a balance suggestion :) And a good one too i think. I'll consider your ideas dungeonfrog, and then tone the prc down, so that i can use it, thanks for the ideas. :)
forsaken1111
09-30-07, 01:21 AM The problem here is that your house rule moves the prestige class to a point of entry way sooner than intended. If you had entered the class as intended it would have required you to be higher level, and thus been more balanced.

Its like housruling the entry requirements for frenzied berserker down to level 3 and saying "Gosh this is strong!" And now that you've done it you want to.. what... water down the prc to fit? Why not just play within the rules rather than talking your DM into breaking them and then band-aid patching them when you realize you're too strong?

And just so you can't say I wasn't constructive, I've run into this PRC before. A PC in my game wanted it, so I made up a 5 level prestige class which granted the half-fiend template and evil subtype at the end. He entered the fiend of possession class at 11 and it was all fine, quite fun too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MindWorX 09-23-07, 10:51 AM	Hey, I'm currently in a campaign, where I'm playing an evil character, and I've been looking at the Fiend of Possession as a prestige class I would like to have. But looking over it, the only thing I actually like about it, is the idea... I don't like the balance of it at all, so i was wondering if someone have made something like it at some point that i might be able to use instead? Just to clarify, the things i find overpowered is the fact that i can control and animate gargantuan objects, "Here have this mountain, reflex save that!", and the ability to give enhancement equal to the level i have the class in, which i can add to the already existing enhancements, and i can even add to a non-magic-non-masterwork item too. That means, if we were to be captured in some dungeon, i could find a random stick, call it a Club, hand it to our fighter, possess the item, and yay, +2 Acidic Frost Club of Neverending Hurt. On top of that, i can go ethereal at will too. And mind you, with the classes I'm taking right now, i can take my first level in the prestige class at my 4th level. So, any ideas? Or maybe, just tell me some weaknesses this class has.
Khatoblepas 09-23-07, 12:48 PM	How are you getting the Evil subtype at level 4? o_O
MindWorX 09-23-07, 01:19 PM	Well, that's a little change i made, i'm playing an evil undead, and me and my gm agreed that that would be a fair substitute :)
Khatoblepas 09-23-07, 03:13 PM	You can't get into the Fiend of Possession as an evil subtyped undead! It requires Outsider. o_O. I don't see what the problem with it is, personally. You're entering it illegally, when it's meant for LA'ed fiends. You can't say a class is overpowered when you houserule something in specifically for it. o_O If you entered it properly, say, with an Imp or Quasit, it would be the only thing you could do. Succubus might be better, but eh. You'd still be a fiend with fiendish abilities. So yes, the mitigation is the fact that you have to be a fairly high ECL Outsider (evil) to get in, or a Tiefling who jumps through hoops to get the evil subtype. It's +1 LA on it's own, you know (source: Savage Species)
MindWorX 09-24-07, 03:42 PM	You can't get into the Fiend of Possession as an evil subtyped undead! It requires Outsider. o_O. It's called, "houserules", look it up ;). I don't see what the problem with it is, personally. You're entering it illegally, when it's meant for LA'ed fiends. You can't say a class is overpowered when you houserule something in specifically for it. o_O If you entered it properly, say, with an Imp or Quasit, it would be the only thing you could do. Succubus might be better, but eh. You'd still be a fiend with fiendish abilities. So yes, the mitigation is the fact that you have to be a fairly high ECL Outsider (evil) to get in, or a Tiefling who jumps through hoops to get the evil subtype. It's +1 LA on it's own, you know (source: Savage Species) I totally forgot about the LA that would normally make them get the prestige class later... I guess that pretty much balances it out... Tho, it still seems rather powerfull.
Khatoblepas 09-24-07, 06:00 PM	It's called, "houserules", look it up ;). Firstly, you didn't state it in your first post, so don't take that tone with me. I'm not psychic, don't assume I am. Fair substitute for what, by the way? What does the evil subtype gain you other than the prereqs for this class? Able to overcome DR/evil with your natural weapons and be affected as if you were evil regardless of your alignment? I totally forgot about the LA that would normally make them get the prestige class later... I guess that pretty much balances it out... Tho, it still seems rather powerfull. - This class was primarily made for NPCs. - This class was made for Outsider (evil)s, in the realms of high LA or jumping through hoops. - You changed the prerequisites so that you could get in, but failed to change them so that it couldn't be entered before 5th level. - You complain that it's overpowered when you can. I really don't see the problem. It's more your houserules than the class itself. Yes, the class is strong but it's supposed to be for NPC fiends - it's in a monster book! For PCs, it could be a little strong but that's why the prerequisites are there. A Succubus can't really contribute much to a 12th level party (since monsters begin to be hard to grapple for energy drain and have immunity to mind-affecting effects), but taking levels in this class ensures she can. The cheese, in fact, is not in the possessing of objects... ... it's taking over the mind of an enemy spellcaster and using their spells. It's getting a meaty construct body from which to deliver your SLAs. Very fun, someone made a build about it. But usually, this class is only enterable by ECL8-12 if you want a good base, and the nicer tricks can't be done until ECL17-18. The build made use of Incarnum (to gain the evil subtype later on) and even the ritual to gain the evil subtype takes more dosh than a 4th level character has. But don't complain about a prestige class for fiends being overpowered if you change the prerequisites so that you can enter early. The prereqs are there for a reason.
goawayugh 09-25-07, 11:09 AM	1. Any houserules should be stated in your first post. If none are stated, then it is assumed that you are playing the way the game should be played...by the rules. 2. Fiend Folio is 3.0. Many 3.0 things were not balanced right (anyone remember 3.0 harm?). 3. It is in a monster book because it was designed to be taken by monsters. The Outsider (evil) prereq is, by far, the hardest prereq of that PrC. Houseruling an easy way past this is just foolish. This class was meant to make demons and devils a challenge to higher ECL party's.
MindWorX 09-25-07, 06:56 PM	Point taken on the LA. The houserule thing, please calm down a little, i said it in the 2nd post of mine, that we agreed Evil Undead was an okay substitute. If that doens't scream houserule, then i don't know what does. But i've realized that this prc wasn't meant to be played by a low level, so i'll see what else i can find that doesn't scream "waste of levels", since we're playing a very low powered campaign, levels are like 2 months apart atm.
dungeonfrog 09-28-07, 05:45 PM	You can limit the number of times per day it can become ethereal. Restricting the animation of objects (Cr of object must be equal or less then you Class level) helps. Balancing the "enhance sticks a lot" problem: Going ethereal leaves a body behind, which is vulnerable to attack. That stick remain a normal stick (or club) and is for the opponent easy as pie to sunder. If you don't encounter any opponents with that trick you can look it from another perspective: assuming that your party consists of four PC's (including you), your party members will loose one able hand when you are bussy possessing a club. Or you chance the amount of gold to 500 gp/ HD (which is still 2,000 gp or a +1 enchantment).
Khatoblepas 09-28-07, 06:28 PM	If you don't encounter any opponents with that trick you can look it from another perspective: assuming that your party consists of four PC's (including you), your party members will loose one able hand when you are bussy possessing a club. Which is why you possess a construct, oh yeah! :D As seen in Triad of Shadow's Anadriel (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=625656). Personally, I love the FoP. Also, does it say it leaves a body behind? I thought it moved your entire form over to the Ethereal Plane?
MindWorX 09-29-07, 02:59 AM	It doesn't say it leaves the body behind, it was a balance suggestion :) And a good one too i think. I'll consider your ideas dungeonfrog, and then tone the prc down, so that i can use it, thanks for the ideas. :)
forsaken1111 09-30-07, 01:21 AM	The problem here is that your house rule moves the prestige class to a point of entry way sooner than intended. If you had entered the class as intended it would have required you to be higher level, and thus been more balanced. Its like housruling the entry requirements for frenzied berserker down to level 3 and saying "Gosh this is strong!" And now that you've done it you want to.. what... water down the prc to fit? Why not just play within the rules rather than talking your DM into breaking them and then band-aid patching them when you realize you're too strong? And just so you can't say I wasn't constructive, I've run into this PRC before. A PC in my game wanted it, so I made up a 5 level prestige class which granted the half-fiend template and evil subtype at the end. He entered the fiend of possession class at 11 and it was all fine, quite fun too.