Fiendish Disciple [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fiendish Disciple [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
forsaken1111
04-16-07, 02:05 AM So I have a character I wanted to become a half-fiend. I worked with my DM and we planned to develop a version of the Dragon Disciple PRC which instead transformed you into a half-fiend. After some work we decided a 5 level class would be better than a 10 level class for this, as the half-dragon template is much better than the half-fiend and we really couldn't fill 10 levels with relevant abilities without being overly redundant.

So for your analysis, here's the Fiendish Disciple. All feedback is welcome, its still a work in progress.

Fiendish Disciple

Hit die: d8

Requirements
To qualify to become a fiendish disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any evil
Race: Any nonoutsider (cannot already be a half-fiend or half-celestial)
Skills: Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks
Feat: Fiendish Heritage
Languages: Abyssal or Infernal
Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation.

Class Skills
The fiendish disciple’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Natural armor increase (+1), ability boost (+2 str), claws and bite -
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Darkness 3/day, ability boost (+2 dex), energy resist 5 +1 existing spellcasting class
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Darkvision 60ft, ability boost (+2 int), energy resist 5 +1 existing spellcasting class
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Desecrate 1/day, wings, DR 2/magic, poison immunity, natural weapons magical +1 existing spellcasting class
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Fiendish apotheosis +1 existing spellcasting class

Class Features

All of the following are Class Features of the fiendish disciple prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Fiendish disciples gain no additional proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Caster Level: At second level and every level after, a fiendish disciple gains +1 level of any preexisting spellcasting class for the purposes of spells known and spells/spell slots available. The fiendish disciple does not gain any other abilities of that class.

If a character has more than one spellcasting class, he must decide to which class he adds each level as it is gained. Once a caster level has been applied, it cannot be shifted.

Natural Armor Increase (Ex): A fiendish disciple gains a +1 increase to the character’s existing natural armor (if any), as indicated.

Claws and Bite (Ex): At first level, a fiendish disciple gains claw and bite attacks if he does not already have them. Use the values below or the disciple’s base claw and bite damage values, whichever are greater. At 4th level the fiendish disciple’s claw and bite attacks are treated as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

Size Bite Damage Claw Damage
Small 1d4 1d3
Medium 1d6 1d4
Large 1d8 1d6

A fiendish disciple is considered proficient with these attacks. When making a full attack, a fiendish disciple uses his full base attack bonus with his bite attack but takes a –5 penalty on claw attacks. The Multiattack feat reduces this penalty to only –2.

Ability Boost (Ex): As a fiendish disciple gains levels in this prestige class, his ability scores increase as noted.
These increases stack and are gained as if through level advancement.

Fiendish abilities: At 2nd, and 4th levels, a fiendish disciple gains a fiendish spell-like ability as noted on the chart below.

Level Ability
2nd Darkness 3/day
4th Desecrate 1/day

Energy Resistance: At 2nd level a fiendish disciple gains resistance 5 to one type chosen from acid, cold, electricity, or fire.

At 3rd level the fiendish disciple may choose a new resistance of an energy type not already chosen.

Darkvision (Ex): At 3rd level, the fiendish disciple gains darkvision with a range of 60 feet. Darkvision allows a character to see in total darkness. Darkvision is black and white only, discerning color is impossible without light.

Fiendish Apotheosis: At 5th level, a fiendish disciple takes on the half-fiend template. His type becomes Outsider with the evil subtype and he gains all the abilities of the half-fiend template as written in the Monster Manual.
Cherubaddon
04-16-07, 12:45 PM Interesting. BUT:
1) I am sorry if that frustrates you, but such a class already exists. It is called the Fiend-Blooded and can be found in Heroes of Horror.

2) The Dragon Disciple has ten levels, and there's a reason for that. Half-fiend is a powerful template, and, in my opinion, five levels are simply not enough to warrant that much power. I would make it a ten-level PrC.

3) That said, the rest of the class is very nice, with flavourful and easy-to-get prereqs. However, your half-fiend is very physical. Consider giving him a few Spell-like Abilities (beyond desecrate, although that's a fine start), and you might also want to give him a little goodie he might not otherwise have, such as wings or a poisoned attack.

4) Before I forget, have a look at this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=646241), especially the feats are worth looking at.

Hope it helped some, and good luck with that class.
Cherubaddon
StevenO
04-16-07, 02:04 PM WOW!!! I can get BAB, HP, skills, Save, and four levels of spellcasting improvement in addition to picking up a LA +4 template all in five levels?? What's not to LOVE??

All sarcasm aside the class, as presented, is WAY too strong especially given it easy entry requirements. In theory picking up the Half-Fiend Template alone would be four levels that don't advance BAB, HD/hp, Save, or skills so you effectively have a class that at level 1 grants +3 BAB, +4 Fort/Will, +1 Reflex, 5d8 HD/hp, skill points, and +4 Spellcasting levels; I hope you agree that is a little overpowering.

Perhaps what you want to do has already been done but if not this is not the way to go. Making the Half-Fiend template into a PrC similiar to the Dragon Disciple needs to be 10 levels and shouldn't grant many (or any) abilities beyond what the template grants. I have considered making a Monstrous Disciple PrC that is seven levels (but requires an LA +3 or greater to enter) that effectively removes the Half-Dragon template from the Dragon Disciple and double the HD gained in level 5-7.
forsaken1111
04-16-07, 03:44 PM Interesting. BUT:
1) I am sorry if that frustrates you, but such a class already exists. It is called the Fiend-Blooded and can be found in Heroes of Horror.

The fiend-blooded class doesn't grant the half-fiend template, which was the entire point of the class. Its certainly an interesting PRC though, if you're a sorcerer.

Anyway as I said, work in progress. The half-fiend template isn't near as powerful as the half-dragon template so it was hard to justify 10 levels. Perhaps increasing this one to 6 or 7 would work.
StevenO
04-16-07, 07:28 PM I don't see how you can say the half-fiend isn't near as powerful as the half-dragon template. Compare:

AC: HF +1 vs HD +4 - ok the dragan has the advantage here
movement: HF gets wings but medium HD does not - dragon D' gives same flight
Attacks: same
Abilities: HF vs HD the HF is Str -4/ Dex +4/ Int +2; the HF trades the HD's strength for dexterity (valued by far more classes) AND an increase in INT.
Special attacks: HF's Smite vs HD's breath weapon
Spell-like abilities: The half-fiend gets many while the half-dragons gets none.
Special Qualities: Half-Dragon gets immunitity to one energy type and type immunities. The Fiend is immune to poison but also get resist 10 to all the dragon's energy types, DR, and SR.

Maybe the Half-Dragon is more powerful for some build but the Half-Fiend is certainly stronger overall and this is reflected in it having an even higher LA.
calronmoonflower
04-16-07, 09:39 PM I don't see how you can say the half-fiend isn't near as powerful as the half-dragon template.

Half-fiend has a higher level adjustment.

Acolyte of the Skin from Complete Arcane grants may of the powers of a half-fiend. Even if you don't use it you could model a prestige class after it.
Cherubaddon
04-17-07, 10:46 AM The fiend-blooded class doesn't grant the half-fiend template, which was the entire point of the class. Its certainly an interesting PRC though, if you're a sorcerer.

It doesn't? Are you sure? I would have sworn it did (at tenth level), but since I don't have my books, I can't look it up. My apologies. Some "constructive criticism" :D :

1) I know how awesome full caster PrCs are, and it might make a lot of sense for half-fiends, but, with all the abilities they get, I would make them lose at least one CL.

2) If you are out of ideas for class abilities, try one of two things: Either Spell-like Abilities, like what half-fiends already have, or feats from the Tome of Fiends (see my link above). There are some very nice feats in there.
Hope it helps.
Cherubaddon
forsaken1111
04-19-07, 02:13 AM It doesn't? Are you sure? I would have sworn it did (at tenth level), but since I don't have my books, I can't look it up. My apologies. Some "constructive criticism" :D :

1) I know how awesome full caster PrCs are, and it might make a lot of sense for half-fiends, but, with all the abilities they get, I would make them lose at least one CL.

2) If you are out of ideas for class abilities, try one of two things: Either Spell-like Abilities, like what half-fiends already have, or feats from the Tome of Fiends (see my link above). There are some very nice feats in there.
Hope it helps.
Cherubaddon

Take a look at the class I posted again. They DO lose one caster level (first level) and they do gain a pair of spell-like abilities as part of the progression to half-fiend...

No, fiend-blooded grants this at 10th level:

"Fiendish Exaltation (Ex): At 10th level, you unlock
the final secrets buried within your lineage. In addition to
the ability boosts you gained from your fiendish heritage,
you now gain an additional +1 to Dexterity, Constitution,
and Intelligence, and +2 to Strength. You also gain
complete immunity to poison, and damage reduction
10/magic."

So it grants some abilities of a fiend but not the template. So could someone help me out and alter the posted class into something you consider fair and balanced?
TheAnthroDM
04-19-07, 02:18 AM Anyway as I said, work in progress. The half-fiend template isn't near as powerful as the half-dragon template so it was hard to justify 10 levels. Perhaps increasing this one to 6 or 7 would work.

You
have
GOT
to
be
JOKING!
Right?
Please tell me you're joking.
forsaken1111
04-19-07, 12:17 PM You
have
GOT
to
be
JOKING!
Right?
Please tell me you're joking.

Not really. The half-fiend doesn't seem all that special. Its got good flavor and some nice spell-like abilities but they're only 1/day (with two exceptions, I believe). The half-dragon can (with a feat) use their breath weapon as often as a normal dragon (every 1d4 rounds iirc), and half-dragons get more combat-oriented ability increases. Half-fiend also has a higher level adjustment, despite the lackluster 1/day abilities which are the main 'power' of the template.

And to even get the good spell-like abilities you have to be 10-15 hitdice. I've only had one game so far that lasted to epic levels, and that was the end of the campaign. Its much more common to reach the 8-12 hitdice area so I doubt many half-fiends will ever see the chance to USE their 1/day destruction or summon monster IX. And what high-level villain is gonna fail the save vs destruction? Assuming a modest +5 to charisma that means the fort save is gonna be 24-25. Not bad but at level 20 thats sorta lackluster, and making the save downgrades it to a fairly moderate damage spell that any mage could do 5-6 times in a day.

Immunity to poison and DR 10/magic don't mean much at high levels. Really the spell resistance is the most useful part of the template, other than being considered an outsider so things like charm person won't work.

Edit: Spelling

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
forsaken1111 04-16-07, 02:05 AM	So I have a character I wanted to become a half-fiend. I worked with my DM and we planned to develop a version of the Dragon Disciple PRC which instead transformed you into a half-fiend. After some work we decided a 5 level class would be better than a 10 level class for this, as the half-dragon template is much better than the half-fiend and we really couldn't fill 10 levels with relevant abilities without being overly redundant. So for your analysis, here's the Fiendish Disciple. All feedback is welcome, its still a work in progress. Fiendish Disciple Hit die: d8 Requirements To qualify to become a fiendish disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Alignment: Any evil Race: Any nonoutsider (cannot already be a half-fiend or half-celestial) Skills: Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks Feat: Fiendish Heritage Languages: Abyssal or Infernal Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation. Class Skills The fiendish disciple’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Natural armor increase (+1), ability boost (+2 str), claws and bite - 2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Darkness 3/day, ability boost (+2 dex), energy resist 5 +1 existing spellcasting class 3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Darkvision 60ft, ability boost (+2 int), energy resist 5 +1 existing spellcasting class 4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Desecrate 1/day, wings, DR 2/magic, poison immunity, natural weapons magical +1 existing spellcasting class 5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Fiendish apotheosis +1 existing spellcasting class Class Features All of the following are Class Features of the fiendish disciple prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Fiendish disciples gain no additional proficiency with any weapon or armor. Caster Level: At second level and every level after, a fiendish disciple gains +1 level of any preexisting spellcasting class for the purposes of spells known and spells/spell slots available. The fiendish disciple does not gain any other abilities of that class. If a character has more than one spellcasting class, he must decide to which class he adds each level as it is gained. Once a caster level has been applied, it cannot be shifted. Natural Armor Increase (Ex): A fiendish disciple gains a +1 increase to the character’s existing natural armor (if any), as indicated. Claws and Bite (Ex): At first level, a fiendish disciple gains claw and bite attacks if he does not already have them. Use the values below or the disciple’s base claw and bite damage values, whichever are greater. At 4th level the fiendish disciple’s claw and bite attacks are treated as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. Size Bite Damage Claw Damage Small 1d4 1d3 Medium 1d6 1d4 Large 1d8 1d6 A fiendish disciple is considered proficient with these attacks. When making a full attack, a fiendish disciple uses his full base attack bonus with his bite attack but takes a –5 penalty on claw attacks. The Multiattack feat reduces this penalty to only –2. Ability Boost (Ex): As a fiendish disciple gains levels in this prestige class, his ability scores increase as noted. These increases stack and are gained as if through level advancement. Fiendish abilities: At 2nd, and 4th levels, a fiendish disciple gains a fiendish spell-like ability as noted on the chart below. Level Ability 2nd Darkness 3/day 4th Desecrate 1/day Energy Resistance: At 2nd level a fiendish disciple gains resistance 5 to one type chosen from acid, cold, electricity, or fire. At 3rd level the fiendish disciple may choose a new resistance of an energy type not already chosen. Darkvision (Ex): At 3rd level, the fiendish disciple gains darkvision with a range of 60 feet. Darkvision allows a character to see in total darkness. Darkvision is black and white only, discerning color is impossible without light. Fiendish Apotheosis: At 5th level, a fiendish disciple takes on the half-fiend template. His type becomes Outsider with the evil subtype and he gains all the abilities of the half-fiend template as written in the Monster Manual.
Cherubaddon 04-16-07, 12:45 PM	Interesting. BUT: 1) I am sorry if that frustrates you, but such a class already exists. It is called the Fiend-Blooded and can be found in Heroes of Horror. 2) The Dragon Disciple has ten levels, and there's a reason for that. Half-fiend is a powerful template, and, in my opinion, five levels are simply not enough to warrant that much power. I would make it a ten-level PrC. 3) That said, the rest of the class is very nice, with flavourful and easy-to-get prereqs. However, your half-fiend is very physical. Consider giving him a few Spell-like Abilities (beyond desecrate, although that's a fine start), and you might also want to give him a little goodie he might not otherwise have, such as wings or a poisoned attack. 4) Before I forget, have a look at this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=646241), especially the feats are worth looking at. Hope it helped some, and good luck with that class. Cherubaddon
StevenO 04-16-07, 02:04 PM	WOW!!! I can get BAB, HP, skills, Save, and four levels of spellcasting improvement in addition to picking up a LA +4 template all in five levels?? What's not to LOVE?? All sarcasm aside the class, as presented, is WAY too strong especially given it easy entry requirements. In theory picking up the Half-Fiend Template alone would be four levels that don't advance BAB, HD/hp, Save, or skills so you effectively have a class that at level 1 grants +3 BAB, +4 Fort/Will, +1 Reflex, 5d8 HD/hp, skill points, and +4 Spellcasting levels; I hope you agree that is a little overpowering. Perhaps what you want to do has already been done but if not this is not the way to go. Making the Half-Fiend template into a PrC similiar to the Dragon Disciple needs to be 10 levels and shouldn't grant many (or any) abilities beyond what the template grants. I have considered making a Monstrous Disciple PrC that is seven levels (but requires an LA +3 or greater to enter) that effectively removes the Half-Dragon template from the Dragon Disciple and double the HD gained in level 5-7.
forsaken1111 04-16-07, 03:44 PM	Interesting. BUT: 1) I am sorry if that frustrates you, but such a class already exists. It is called the Fiend-Blooded and can be found in Heroes of Horror. The fiend-blooded class doesn't grant the half-fiend template, which was the entire point of the class. Its certainly an interesting PRC though, if you're a sorcerer. Anyway as I said, work in progress. The half-fiend template isn't near as powerful as the half-dragon template so it was hard to justify 10 levels. Perhaps increasing this one to 6 or 7 would work.
StevenO 04-16-07, 07:28 PM	I don't see how you can say the half-fiend isn't near as powerful as the half-dragon template. Compare: AC: HF +1 vs HD +4 - ok the dragan has the advantage here movement: HF gets wings but medium HD does not - dragon D' gives same flight Attacks: same Abilities: HF vs HD the HF is Str -4/ Dex +4/ Int +2; the HF trades the HD's strength for dexterity (valued by far more classes) AND an increase in INT. Special attacks: HF's Smite vs HD's breath weapon Spell-like abilities: The half-fiend gets many while the half-dragons gets none. Special Qualities: Half-Dragon gets immunitity to one energy type and type immunities. The Fiend is immune to poison but also get resist 10 to all the dragon's energy types, DR, and SR. Maybe the Half-Dragon is more powerful for some build but the Half-Fiend is certainly stronger overall and this is reflected in it having an even higher LA.
calronmoonflower 04-16-07, 09:39 PM	I don't see how you can say the half-fiend isn't near as powerful as the half-dragon template. Half-fiend has a higher level adjustment. Acolyte of the Skin from Complete Arcane grants may of the powers of a half-fiend. Even if you don't use it you could model a prestige class after it.
Cherubaddon 04-17-07, 10:46 AM	The fiend-blooded class doesn't grant the half-fiend template, which was the entire point of the class. Its certainly an interesting PRC though, if you're a sorcerer. It doesn't? Are you sure? I would have sworn it did (at tenth level), but since I don't have my books, I can't look it up. My apologies. Some "constructive criticism" :D : 1) I know how awesome full caster PrCs are, and it might make a lot of sense for half-fiends, but, with all the abilities they get, I would make them lose at least one CL. 2) If you are out of ideas for class abilities, try one of two things: Either Spell-like Abilities, like what half-fiends already have, or feats from the Tome of Fiends (see my link above). There are some very nice feats in there. Hope it helps. Cherubaddon
forsaken1111 04-19-07, 02:13 AM	It doesn't? Are you sure? I would have sworn it did (at tenth level), but since I don't have my books, I can't look it up. My apologies. Some "constructive criticism" :D : 1) I know how awesome full caster PrCs are, and it might make a lot of sense for half-fiends, but, with all the abilities they get, I would make them lose at least one CL. 2) If you are out of ideas for class abilities, try one of two things: Either Spell-like Abilities, like what half-fiends already have, or feats from the Tome of Fiends (see my link above). There are some very nice feats in there. Hope it helps. Cherubaddon Take a look at the class I posted again. They DO lose one caster level (first level) and they do gain a pair of spell-like abilities as part of the progression to half-fiend... No, fiend-blooded grants this at 10th level: "Fiendish Exaltation (Ex): At 10th level, you unlock the final secrets buried within your lineage. In addition to the ability boosts you gained from your fiendish heritage, you now gain an additional +1 to Dexterity, Constitution, and Intelligence, and +2 to Strength. You also gain complete immunity to poison, and damage reduction 10/magic." So it grants some abilities of a fiend but not the template. So could someone help me out and alter the posted class into something you consider fair and balanced?
TheAnthroDM 04-19-07, 02:18 AM	Anyway as I said, work in progress. The half-fiend template isn't near as powerful as the half-dragon template so it was hard to justify 10 levels. Perhaps increasing this one to 6 or 7 would work. You have GOT to be JOKING! Right? Please tell me you're joking.
forsaken1111 04-19-07, 12:17 PM	You have GOT to be JOKING! Right? Please tell me you're joking. Not really. The half-fiend doesn't seem all that special. Its got good flavor and some nice spell-like abilities but they're only 1/day (with two exceptions, I believe). The half-dragon can (with a feat) use their breath weapon as often as a normal dragon (every 1d4 rounds iirc), and half-dragons get more combat-oriented ability increases. Half-fiend also has a higher level adjustment, despite the lackluster 1/day abilities which are the main 'power' of the template. And to even get the good spell-like abilities you have to be 10-15 hitdice. I've only had one game so far that lasted to epic levels, and that was the end of the campaign. Its much more common to reach the 8-12 hitdice area so I doubt many half-fiends will ever see the chance to USE their 1/day destruction or summon monster IX. And what high-level villain is gonna fail the save vs destruction? Assuming a modest +5 to charisma that means the fort save is gonna be 24-25. Not bad but at level 20 thats sorta lackluster, and making the save downgrades it to a fairly moderate damage spell that any mage could do 5-6 times in a day. Immunity to poison and DR 10/magic don't mean much at high levels. Really the spell resistance is the most useful part of the template, other than being considered an outsider so things like charm person won't work. Edit: Spelling